You do not need to be religious to possess a moral framework

by AwfulTruth Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:03 am

First topic message reminder :

Do you agree or disagree with this statement?

by trevorw2539 Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:30 pm

oftenwrong wrote:
trevorw2539 wrote:Man is solely responsible for his own actions.

A Nun is wedded to Christ and keeps herself and her beauty for him.
In most early civilisations a womans hair was usually long and plaited. Left uncovered except for special occasions. Clothing for men and women has varied down the millenia. Mostly women have worn clothing from the shoulder to ankle. Men have varied from the same to knee length 'skirts'.
In many civilisations is was the custom for a wife to veil herself when out, or male visitors called on her husband. Again the idea was to keep her beauty for her husband to enjoy. Ommitting Islamic religion, it still occurs in some places today.
I don't deny the 'Patriarchal' church. But it has become an obsession with some.
That's why I post little.

Are you still wearing waist-length hair, Trev? That must help to convince doubters.

My 'Nazarite' vow finished a few weeks ago. Smile

by polyglide Tue Oct 23, 2012 3:50 pm

The more you go into the antics of the human race the more it becomes obvious that they are a species apart, miles apart from any other living thing.

Then the quesion arises why?

by Shirina Tue Oct 23, 2012 5:26 pm

Then the quesion arises why?

To be a slave race for an insecure god?

by polyglide Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:01 pm

Man is only a slave if he makes himself such.

God offers a completely free will, you can choose to accept or not.

Man suffers from his own actions and nothing more.

Every adverse effect on life has been brought about by the actions in one way or another by mankind. [ health wise ].

Natural occurances have caused many problems of a different kind but with the Devil around what can one expect.

To forget that there is a war [dispute] between the Devil and God leaves far more problems to solve than if you accept the fact.

by Tosh Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:13 pm

What has the devil got to do with us being evolved primates ?

by Tosh Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:42 pm

The more you go into the antics of the human race the more it becomes obvious that they are a species apart, miles apart from any other living thing.

The more one studies humans the more it becomes obvious we share much the same traits as chimps.

Then the quesion arises why?.

We shared a common ancestor with primates.

Next ?

by tlttf Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:40 pm

On the subject of religion, next week the Church of England senate is holding a convention for Arms Dealers, you couldn't make it up and it highlights why people are leaving in droves. On the positive side at least they're not being neutral on the topic of war.

by snowyflake Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:28 pm

Man is only a slave if he makes himself such.

According to God, man is to devote his entire life to God. If that's not being a slave I don't know what is. The first 3 commandments are about worshipping him and only him. Murdering, coveting, stealing and lying are way down the list. And rape, paedophilia, domestic abuse, misogyny don't even get a mention. I don't know about you but rape and paedophila are infinitely worse that taking God's name in vain. Sorry but God just seems a little self absorbed to me.

God offers a completely free will, you can choose to accept or not.

Actually, your genetic code determines most of who you are. And environment determines the rest. Free will is an illusion.

Man suffers from his own actions and nothing more.

The human race has done quite well I think. Most people are pretty good. How many truly evil people do you run into in your day to day life? I haven't met any. Have you? Really?

Every adverse effect on life has been brought about by the actions in one way or another by mankind. [ health wise ].

Can you give us an example please?

Natural occurances have caused many problems of a different kind but with the Devil around what can one expect.

Can you tell me one natural occurrence caused by the devil please?

To forget that there is a war [dispute] between the Devil and God leaves far more problems to solve than if you accept the fact.

This is the scariest thing ever. That a grown adult person believes truly that there is an actual war going on in the ether between God and the Devil and the angels and demons. There isn't anything on this planet that can measure my incredible incredulity at such statements.

by Guest Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:49 pm

snowyflake wrote:
Actually, your genetic code determines most of who you are. And environment determines the rest. Free will is an illusion.

If so, the only logical course of action is to (1) develop a genetic test to predetermine criminals, and (2) either execute the predetermined criminals or parachute them out of massive transport aircraft unto remote islands and let them fend for themselves.

Utopia.

[“Think about it” time}

Snowy, I’m serious. I’ve seen you post this before, and I’ve seen your chosen passion for that which is right. You are a walking, neon-lit billboard advertisement for freedom of choice. Your heart goes out to brutalized innocent human souls because you choose to point your heart in that direction. Even your chosen vocation speaks of your freely choosing to do what you can do to alleviate others’ suffering.

This video might help you, as it helped me, to resolve somewhat the apparent dilemma between knowing that DNA-RNA conveys the genetic code set at conception to every cell and knowing that good people freely choose to do right.

by snowyflake Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:19 pm

If so, the only logical course of action is to (1) develop a genetic test to predetermine criminals, and (2) either execute the predetermined criminals or parachute them out of massive transport aircraft unto remote islands and let them fend for themselves.

Why? Why not develop a therapy that helps people not become criminals in the first place. This is where environment plays a part.

Rock you misunderstand me. Just because who you are is determined largely by your genetic code and your environment does not mean you don't have to take responsibility for your actions. We make choices but some of those choices are determined by what's going on biologically whether we like it or not.

by Guest Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:39 pm

RockOnBrother wrote:
This video might help you, as it helped me, to resolve somewhat the apparent dilemma between knowing that DNA-RNA conveys the genetic code set at conception to every cell and knowing that good people freely choose to do right.

I forgot. I think that’s in my genetic code.

Prager University: Do You Have Free Will?
https://www.youtube.com/v/Q40PfsLxMzY

snowyflake wrote:
Why? Why not develop a therapy that helps people not become criminals in the first place. This is where environment plays a part.

Rock you misunderstand me. Just because who you are is determined largely by your genetic code and your environment does not mean you don't have to take responsibility for your actions. We make choices but some of those choices are determined by what's going on biologically whether we like it or not.

Why? Because if genetic code is the predominant determiner, then attempts to alter genetically-programmed behaviors are by and large fruitless efforts, in effect “black holes” that suck up limited societal resources without yielding positive results.

So here’s where you’re correct. Neither supportive environment nor taking responsibility for my actions changed my basketball fate. Height, wingspan, leg length, hand size, speed, and hops are predetermined by genetic code. Nothing one does can increase one’s potential physical dimensions. Lack of sufficient nutrition can diminish these dimensions, but that’s another story. One can enhance speed and hops through dedicated practice, but one cannot much enhance that which does not exist. So, based upon my genetic code, enshrinement with Elegant Elgin and The Doctor was not my destiny.

Character I do not believe is hard-wire via genetic code. I do believe that freedom of choice in character issues in hard-wired. As a 7th grade history student who drew Korean War murals of F-86 Sabrejets shooting down MiG-15s on our adjoining desks during class lectures, my friend and I spent many after-school detentions writing the following sentence.

“Man is the only animal that can laugh or cry, because man is the only animal that can tell the difference between what things is and what things ought to be.”

I didn’t realize it at the time, but this sentence, engraved into my brain by extreme repetition, conveys that which makes man man.

by polyglide Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:35 am

The present state of mankind is due to one thing only, man's inability to take responsibility for his shortcomings, blaming everything on someone else and his circumstances.

Some of the most devout Christians would give their right arm and a leg for the circumstances under which some of the atheists live and enjoy but it is an easy get out to blame everything but ones self.

by snowyflake Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:56 pm

Why? Because if genetic code is the predominant determiner, then attempts to alter genetically-programmed behaviors are by and large fruitless efforts, in effect “black holes” that suck up limited societal resources without yielding positive results.

Wrong! You are forgetting about the environmental influences like nurturing, education, standard of living, health, where you live, diet. These can make a massive difference to a person's life outcomes.

Twin and triplet studies show that the genetic code is far more determining. For example, twins separated at birth and adopted into different families are far more like each other than they are like their adopted families in almost every parameter you care to study. And when separated twins meet up in later life, they find they have far more in common with each other, although they have never lived together, than with their adoptive families.

So here’s where you’re correct. Neither supportive environment nor taking responsibility for my actions changed my basketball fate. Height, wingspan, leg length, hand size, speed, and hops are predetermined by genetic code. Nothing one does can increase one’s potential physical dimensions. Lack of sufficient nutrition can diminish these dimensions, but that’s another story. One can enhance speed and hops through dedicated practice, but one cannot much enhance that which does not exist. So, based upon my genetic code, enshrinement with Elegant Elgin and The Doctor was not my destiny.

Well, wishing for something isn't a crime, Rock. Smile

If you had the genetic predisposition i.e. height, speed and agility who knows where you might have been.

Character I do not believe is hard-wire via genetic code. I do believe that freedom of choice in character issues in hard-wired. As a 7th grade history student who drew Korean War murals of F-86 Sabrejets shooting down MiG-15s on our adjoining desks during class lectures, my friend and I spent many after-school detentions writing the following sentence.

I think certain aspects of character are hardwired in the genetic code. Some mental illnesses are genetic. Some types of dementia, alzheimers, schizophrenia and many learning difficulties are genetic. These have definite character traits that are identifiable.

“Man is the only animal that can laugh or cry, because man is the only animal that can tell the difference between what things is and what things ought to be.”

Maybe. I had a dog that could tell the difference between what things is and what things ought to be, right around dinner time when his food bowl wasn't where it ought to be. Smile

I didn’t realize it at the time, but this sentence, engraved into my brain by extreme repetition, conveys that which makes man man.

We are evolved mammals, Rock. We have big brains and we learned to survive.

Take care of yourself. Smile

by snowyflake Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:00 pm

The present state of mankind is due to one thing only, man's inability to take responsibility for his shortcomings, blaming everything on someone else and his circumstances.

This is a very vague statement. What do you mean by 'the present state of mankind'?

Some of the most devout Christians would give their right arm and a leg for the circumstances under which some of the atheists live and enjoy but it is an easy get out to blame everything but ones self.

This makes no sense. How do some atheists live?

by Guest Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:11 pm

snowyflake wrote:
Why? Because if genetic code is the predominant determiner, then attempts to alter genetically-programmed behaviors are by and large fruitless efforts, in effect “black holes” that suck up limited societal resources without yielding positive results.
Wrong! You are forgetting about the environmental influences like nurturing, education, standard of living, health, where you live, diet. These can make a massive difference to a person's life outcomes.

I’m so glad you’ve said that with such vehement intensity. You’ve affirmed freedom of choice in two ways, (1) by what you’ve said, and (2) by how you’ve said it. And by the way, I agree with both your content and your emotion.

snowyflake wrote:
Twin and triplet studies show that the genetic code is far more determining. For example, twins separated at birth and adopted into different families are far more like each other than they are like their adopted families in almost every parameter you care to study. And when separated twins meet up in later life, they find they have far more in common with each other, although they have never lived together, than with their adoptive families.

Now it gets interesting. If one identical triplet is doing double life for three unprovoked axe murders, are you sure that heavy duty law enforcement, like say “One Texas Ranger”, ought not pick ‘em up and lock ‘em down “just in case?”

I hope the weird humor (one of my daughters calls it “ignorant humor”) isn’t lost in the translation. I’ve often heard, and often verbally challenged, the notion that if someone is from “a bad family, then “badness is in their blood.”

Going the other way, athletically speaking, there does seem to be something to this genetic connection. Two sets of siblings and one singleton shared the same grandparents; thus, each was no further than first cousin from any of the others. Mel Farr, NFL running back, Miller Farr, NFL cornerback (brothers), Bubba Smith, NFL defensive lineman, Toby Smith, NFL defensive lineman (brothers), and Jerry LeVias (the singleton), NFL wide-out, were all at one time all in the NFL simultaneously. Kobe Bryant, NBA “2 guard”, is the son of “Jellybean” Bryant, former NBA power forward. Cal Ripken Jr. and Billy Ripken, former MLB infielders, are the sons of Cal Ripken Sr., former MLB player.

And the “clincher?” Archie Manning, a highly talented NFL quarterback who had all the tools except a decent team, has two NFL quarterback sons, Peyton Manning, with one Super Bowl ring, and Eli Manning, with two Super Bowl rings.

snowyflake wrote:
So here’s where you’re correct. Neither supportive environment nor taking responsibility for my actions changed my basketball fate. Height, wingspan, leg length, hand size, speed, and hops are predetermined by genetic code. Nothing one does can increase one’s potential physical dimensions. Lack of sufficient nutrition can diminish these dimensions, but that’s another story. One can enhance speed and hops through dedicated practice, but one cannot much enhance that which does not exist. So, based upon my genetic code, enshrinement with Elegant Elgin and The Doctor was not my destiny.

Well, wishing for something isn't a crime, Rock. If you had the genetic predisposition i.e. height, speed and agility who knows where you might have been.

Ya think? Here’s some lines from the screenplay, “Basketball Rock”:

Me: “I coulda been a contenda.”
My coach: “He shoulda stood in bed.”

snowyflake wrote:
Character I do not believe is hard-wire via genetic code. I do believe that freedom of choice in character issues in hard-wired. As a 7th grade history student who drew Korean War murals of F-86 Sabrejets shooting down MiG-15s on our adjoining desks during class lectures, my friend and I spent many after-school detentions writing the following sentence.
I think certain aspects of character are hardwired in the genetic code. Some mental illnesses are genetic. Some types of dementia, alzheimers, schizophrenia and many learning difficulties are genetic. These have definite character traits that are identifiable.

I’ve never thought of those as character traits. I “get” your point.

snowyflake wrote:
“Man is the only animal that can laugh or cry, because man is the only animal that can tell the difference between what things is and what things ought to be.”

Maybe. I had a dog that could tell the difference between what things is and what things ought to be, right around dinner time when his food bowl wasn't where it ought to be.

No doubt right where it ought to be with the food that ought to be in it right there also. Your dog was man.

snowyflake wrote:
I didn’t realize it at the time, but this sentence, engraved into my brain by extreme repetition, conveys that which makes man man.

We are evolved mammals, Rock. We have big brains and we learned to survive.

Take care of yourself.

Well, we are mammals. Keep warm, and keep your powder dry.

by polyglide Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:16 am

Big brains, what a pity some have little idea how to use them, this being one of the most disappointments of mankind, given such a wonderful thing by God and so sady abused by mankind.

by snowyflake Fri Nov 02, 2012 9:04 pm

Considering all the technological advances in the last 150 years, I'd say mankind has used his brain quite well. Personally, I would not like to go back to beating my rugs with a rug beater, travelling uncomfortably by horse and cart for days just to go to the next town, making a log fire everytime I wanted to cook something, spending my whole day looking for and preparing food, taking weeks to cross an ocean instead of hours to fly over it, speaking and seeing my family in Canada thanks to the internet and Skype. Knowing that my friend who has breast cancer has a fighting chance to survive thanks to medical science and advances in cancer treatment. We have been to the moon and there is a rover on Mars.

I agree, polyglide, many people do not use their brains and only see the world in a pessimistic light. And believers make the ghastly mistake of believing that prophecy in the bible is going to come true and they actually wish for it. That is the saddest indictment of all.

by astra Fri Nov 02, 2012 9:45 pm

don't worry Snowy, there's always someone who will do your "hunter gathering" bounce

tell me, where do these stories fit in with "religion" and "creation"?

#1 "A teenager suffering from a rare genetic condition turning her into a "human mannequin" has refused to be beaten by her disease - and is battling against the odds to pursue her dream career in fashion.

Louise Wedderburn has a rare genetic condition which causes each of her joints to lock as the muscle turns into bone. The 19-year-old was born with Fibrodysplasia ossificans progressiva (FOP), a genetic disease which causes soft tissue to turn into bone, freezing her body permanently into place."

http://news.uk.msn.com/odd-news/human-mannequin-battles-odds-3
-----

Is this what happened when Lot's wife "turned into a pillar of salt?"
------
#2 "Calvin Lock, from Littleport in Cambridgeshire, was admitted to a specialist burns unit in September after he was given one of the most popular brands of children's medicine containing ibuprofen.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-20160788

Be careful with #2, as the video may be construed as disturbing.

by Shirina Sat Nov 03, 2012 6:07 am

And believers make the ghastly mistake of believing that prophecy in the bible is going to come true and they actually wish for it. That is the saddest indictment of all.

AronRa on Atheists:

"And we're not the ones wasting our resources like there's no tomorrow because we're not the ones who actually believe there is no tomorrow. If you believe these are the last days, then you're not going to prepare for the future. And if you elect such a person, then you are hiring them to lead you to your doom"

This video should be on national television:

by snowyflake Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:18 am

Excellent video, Shirina. Thanks for that.

tell me, where do these stories fit in with "religion" and "creation"?

Not sure what you're getting at astra. Interesting stories. Sad. There is still much to learn in genetics. We are still in our infancy in this discipline. But the more we learn, we find the more there is to learn. Our view of genetics has changed drastically in the last 30 years and even more so since the Human Genome Project. It has changed the way diagnostic genetics services are administered. There are over 6000 recognised genetic diseases and more being added all the time. We are moving so fast that one test just implemented is already 'antique' and we need to give over to a new test. This is how fast it is moving. Research is ongoing and moving at the speed of light. Fantastic for patients, amazing for researchers and diagnostics and mankind as a whole IMO.

by polyglide Sat Nov 03, 2012 11:45 am

The present state of mankind is evidenced by the total lack of understanding between individuals and nations and the preferance of man's opinions and as opposed to those of God's.

Once it was a cause for great concern if a murder took place, now it is a shock if one is not reported daily.

Parents killing their children, almost unheard of years ago, now a weekly occurance.

Nation fearfull of other nations, more spent on armaments than trying to help those in dire need.

Thieves amongst our MPs, those supposed to set an example.

Illnesses that can be attributed to man's stupidity that threaten mankind on an ongoing basis.

Children even in those countries who are amongst the most well off going hungry.

Thouands of homeless people.

If you need any more evidence just ask there are plenty more axamples.

by snowyflake Sat Nov 03, 2012 12:55 pm

The present state of mankind is evidenced by the total lack of understanding between individuals and nations and the preferance of man's opinions and as opposed to those of God's.

Most of this misunderstanding is the lack of tolerance of other's religious and cultural views.

Once it was a cause for great concern if a murder took place, now it is a shock if one is not reported daily.

We hear more about it because our technology allows us to hear more about it.

Parents killing their children, almost unheard of years ago, now a weekly occurance.

You are kidding. Go to the Old Bailey website and see how awful the crimes were 'back then'. Parents practically had carte blanche with the well being of their children. We can be thankful to forensic science and better police work that criminals don't get away with it as often as they surely did back then. And that is just in the UK. Imagine this world wide.

Nation fearfull of other nations, more spent on armaments than trying to help those in dire need.

Yes. Your Christians brothers in America are neck deep in armament sales as is the UK. Armaments being the UK's #1 export at the moment. What does that tell you? You don't hear that in the news do you? And what good are armaments if there is no where to use them? Welcome back, American Christians who believe that the Apocolypse will happen in the Middle East and if it doesn't, by God, they will make sure it does. After all, it's in the prophecies.

Thieves amongst our MPs, those supposed to set an example.

Yup. Couldn't agree more.

Illnesses that can be attributed to man's stupidity that threaten mankind on an ongoing basis.

For example?

Children even in those countries who are amongst the most well off going hungry.

Yup. The UK sent $600 million of our money to Pakistan last year, the country that hid Osama bin Laden for 6 years while children in this country get a poorer education and poorer health care thanks to D. Cameron and Co. and less benefits.

Thouands of homeless people.

Thanks to the above.

If you need any more evidence just ask there are plenty more axamples.

Sure. Bring it on. Smile

by Shirina Sat Nov 03, 2012 3:29 pm

The present state of mankind is evidenced by the total lack of understanding between individuals and nations and the preferance of man's opinions and as opposed to those of God's.

Yes, that's just brilliant. God creates humans with free will then gets all bent out of shape when humans actually exercise it. Maybe if God wasn't playing peek-a-boo and simply came down and said, "Here I am!" none of these problems would be occurring. It's the same old Christian spiel ... it's all OUR fault.

That's one of the reasons why Christianity is so ... distasteful. It expects you to have the same relationship with God as a battered wife has with her abusive husband. It's sickening on so many levels.

Now, I can get behind the whole "love they neighbor" philosophy, but you should come to America for awhile and hang out with the evangelicals. You might see religion for what it is: A club with which to bully people. Sure, I suppose that if all 6.2 billion people on the planet became God-fearing Christians, all of our problems would be solved! Well, at least until Catholics and Protestants started fighting, or Lutherans and Methodists began a war over how to pray. Or Pentacostals and Seventh Day Advantists engaged in bloodshed over the proper hymns to sing. Oh yes ... that has already happened, and it happened on your island of Britain around the time of the Plantagenet kings. Look it up, my historically deficient friend. Very Happy

Once it was a cause for great concern if a murder took place, now it is a shock if one is not reported daily.

What on earth makes you think murder is no longer cause for great concern? I've lived in neighborhoods were murders took place, and believe me, there was A LOT of concern. I was even involved in a search party to hunt for the victim, and there were thousands of us. The turn-out was amazing, and the police never rested until they caught the creep who did it. Just because the entire country doesn't wring their hands and rush into the streets wailing doesn't mean there isn't concern. Murder is no more acceptable now than it was before ... and in fact it is less tolerated today. Again, read your history, which by your own admission you don't like to bother with. Yet it is this willful ignorance that causes you to reach so many wrong conclusions.

Parents killing their children, almost unheard of years ago, now a weekly occurance.

Snowy is right on two counts. Both in the fact that media technology now allows us to hear about every case no matter how remote the location and the fact that, in earlier times, parents could kill their children practically at will. No one cared. Did you know that, right up until WWII, Russian parents would often let the weakest child starve to death if there was a food shortage? Back before parents had to register births by law, there was no record of children until they came of age. It's part of the reason why old family Bibles have family trees in them. It was the only place where a child had a record. This gave parents unprecedented leeway in how children were treated -- including what today would be considered child abuse. Bah, this is that history stuff again. How boring!

Nation fearfull of other nations, more spent on armaments than trying to help those in dire need.

And why is that? Well, let's take America, the world's largest arms exporter, as an example. One of the things that pit America against the Soviets was America's hatred of Soviet atheism. Yep, they had different religious views and, therefore, they were evil. There are old school Coldwarriors who, even today, are convinced that the Soviet system failed due to Godlessness. Oh brother. While religious differences weren't the only reason for the Cold War rivalries, they played a large part. Ironically, America was falling drastically behind in science up until the Soviets launched Sputnik ... and suddenly Americans came to their senses and started teaching science in our schools instead of Biblical fables. If it wasn't for those "Godless" Russkies, we'd probably be a 2nd rate nation by now. However, as Santayana warned, Americans failed to learn from that mistake and we're sliding once again ... and this time, it'll probably be the "Godless" Chinese or the "Godless" Europeans who catch America napping in a religious stupor this time around.

But now that the Cold War is over, we immediately launched into a Christian vs. Muslim mentality and now, here we are again with more wars due to religious nonsense. The idea of fighting over whose god concept is better is like two kids punching each other to prove whose daddy is the best. It's utterly ridiculous. The only thing we rationalists can do is shake our heads and remove ourselves from the stupidity.

Children even in those countries who are amongst the most well off going hungry.

Thouands of homeless people.

Like I said, come to America and hang out with the evangelicals and the fundamentalists ... you know, the religious right. They'll happily allow children to go hungry or to keep people homeless just as long as they save a few extra bucks on their taxes, most of which will end up in the collection plate at a megachurch complete with sweating preachers and institutionalized bigotry.

by methought Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:43 pm

You do not need to be religious to possess a moral framework - true - and some very immoral people hide behind the facade of religion to commit appallingly immoral acts - and I'm not just referring to paedophile priests. It is religion that keeps people's sense of cultural identity in a recognisable pigeon-hole but the range of morality practiced by adherents ranges from very good to pretty evil across all the different religious denominations.

Only Buddhism is free from that taint.

by snowyflake Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:48 pm

Buddhism may be free from that taint but Buddhists are not and there are some pretty evil things going on in Sri Lanka, Burma, Cambodia. All religions are divisive no matter how 'peaceful' they claim to be. And when you add division and philosophical differences over imaginary superheroes you create the background for war.

Nothing moral about that, I'm afraid.

by Jsmythe Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:54 pm

It would also be fair to say - "You don't have to be religious to be evil"

The Moral Framework in general, is I guess - Interpreted by the priests of the day,in all religions. What ever the pope says - is so. What ever the Imam says,- is so. This applies to law makers and non religious leaders.

but yes to the heading statement of the thread. It is down to the individuals.

by polyglide Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:29 pm

Morals are options irrespective of any other consideration,

There will be many moral people who do not have any religion and there will be many religious people who have no morals.

That is human nature and the result of man having a free will, as opposed to all other creatures being subject to their designated life as decided by God the creator.

by Tosh Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:30 pm

Cuckoo...cuckoo....cuckoo.

by polyglide Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:28 pm

Yep, even the cuckoo which you represent so well, has to obey that which God designed it for.

What a great pity God wasted so many wonderful gifts on idiots like you.

by Tosh Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:46 pm

Yep, even the cuckoo which you represent so well, has to obey that which God designed it for.

God designed the cuckoo to be a brood parasite, obviously the commandment thou shalt not steal must not apply to cuckoos.

Keep taking the meds.

by polyglide Sat Nov 24, 2012 11:40 am

There is much in nature that appears not in accordance with a loving God, there is always the possibility and a distinct one at that, that God has not created everything on earth.

We are told IN THE BEGINING GOD CREATED THE EARTH along with all living things, this does not preclude the Devil from putting the sting in the wasp etc; nor confusing matters by introducing other elements etc, we do not know to what extent the Devils powers are regarding the agreement between him and God.

by Tosh Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:20 pm

there is always the possibility and a distinct one at that, that God has not created everything on earth.

we do not know to what extent the Devils powers are regarding the agreement between him and God.

* Scratches ones head *

Are you suggesting God gave the Devil permission to make cuckoos ?

If he was so inclined why not just make the cuckoos himself and cut out the middle man, are you sure this is all true?

I am losing track here, Jesus preached against cuckoos but he agreed to cuckoos being made ?

Sounds cuckoo to me.

by Shirina Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:09 pm

We are told IN THE BEGINING GOD CREATED THE EARTH along with all living things, this does not preclude the Devil from putting the sting in the wasp etc; nor confusing matters by introducing other elements etc, we do not know to what extent the Devils powers are regarding the agreement between him and God.

In the mortal realm, the idea of "making a pact with the devil" is a metaphor for condemning the actions of a person who has committed an unspeakable evil. We may say, for instance, that Hitler must have "made a pact with the devil."

So what are we to say, then, when the God that we are supposed to worship, the one whose very essence is supposed to be all-encompassing good, is quite literally "making a pact with the devil?"

For me, I simply say ... rubbish.

by polyglide Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:51 pm

You are obviouly unable to comprehend anything beyond the two year old stage.

God did not make a pact, he was challenged by the Devil who said he could turn everyone againt him.

God gave the Devil a certain amount of time to do so.

What we do not know are the terms of the challenge.

You say you simly say, because you are sinple.

by Tosh Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:16 pm

You say you simly say, because you are sinple..

Easy for you to say.

by Shirina Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:50 pm

You are obviouly unable to comprehend anything beyond the two year old stage.

You're too blinded by religious fanaticism to see how ridiculous your premise is. Everyone else is just supposed to believe these "facts" despite them not being supported by anything -- not even the Bible.

God did not make a pact, he was challenged by the Devil who said he could turn everyone againt him.

God gave the Devil a certain amount of time to do so.

You really have no idea how criminal this behavior is, do you. Instead you just accept it because it's God, and no matter how pernicious and evil God behaves, well, that's okay because God is good!

Well, obviously, should God even exist, he's NOT good. It's like a drug dealer telling you, "I bet I can get all of your children hooked on meth," and you responding with, "Sure, I'll take that bet. Here are my children. Have at it!" What kind of sick and twisted "parent" would do such a thing? What kind of Supreme Being, who is supposed to love us and watch over us, would allow the devil to rampage across the world as God stands back with folded arms to see the results? Yet you blame humans for the mess this world has become. What absolute, utter, unmitigated stupidity.

According to you, all of the evil in the world is taking place because of some ridiculous "football bet" between two childish beings with FAR more power than they deserve. This is why, when Christopher Hitchens talks about God being a "celestial dictatorship," you should listen to the man. Obviously absolute power has corrupted even God, or so it would seem, as no loving God would allow his arch-nemesis (which God created) to stalk his own children. What foolishness.

What we do not know are the terms of the challenge.

Who cares what the terms are? The "fact" (according to you) remains that God and Satan are sporting a little bet and humanity has been paying the price for it. That is EVIL. In fact, if Satan is the little trixter Christians say he is, the whole REASON why Satan presented this wager was probably to show us all just how uncaring and nasty God really is. And like it or not, Satan would be absolutely right and God was tricked into letting Satan spread his evil.

You say you simly say, because you are sinple.

No, I say so because the LOGIC is simple -- all the more reason why it baffles the mind why you don't see it.

by polyglide Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:40 pm

Yep, I always try to be honest.

by polyglide Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:46 pm

Shirina, you get lost in a lot of nonsense which cause a loss of common sense.

If you can come up with something original it would make a change.

Just trying to understand what is written and not what you think is writ ten.

How you can make out God is anything but loving from anything I have ever said is beyond belief.

You cannot grasp the battle which is going on all you can see is the Devil's work and blame God.

I hope I am not there when the Devil has you on the end of the fork and asks you which side first.

by Shirina Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:46 pm

Shirina, you get lost in a lot of nonsense which cause a loss of common sense.

Would you care to put that to a vote, polyglide? I'll set up a poll right now if you wish. I may be many things, but lacking in common sense is hardly one of them. I think most, if not all, on this board would agree.

If you can come up with something original it would make a change.

The point here isn't to come up with something original. This isn't a variety show. The point is to show how some of your ideas are just barking mad, and if I have to repeat arguments, well, that's because a) you haven't refuted them and b) repetition is one of the best forms of learning.

Just trying to understand what is written and not what you think is writ ten.

I'm going strictly by what you write and nothing else.

How you can make out God is anything but loving from anything I have ever said is beyond belief.

Because you just got done saying that the Devil is here trying to turn people against God because of a stupid bet, polyglide! Would YOU do that to YOUR children? Would YOU subject them to the Devil just to prove the Devil wrong? I mean, God is supposed to be omniscient, for crying out loud, so why would he even CARE what the Devil says? God would already know if what the Devil says is true or not. And yet, despite this, you blunder along through life still believing that the God you worship is loving. Loving? Really? So if I offered up my children to a pedophile because he challenged me to a bet, I would still be a loving parent? Holy damn, I have every reason to believe that your God is the farthest thing from loving, and even though your words are quite clear, you think I don't understand them because I don't agree with them. Bollocks!

You cannot grasp the battle which is going on all you can see is the Devil's work and blame God.

Well, see, that's the problem when dealing with an "all-powerful" being. No matter what happens, the buck stops with him. An "all-powerful" being shouldn't have to fight any battles unless he wants to. An "all-powerful" being can simply vanquish his enemies with but a thought, and his refusal do so so causes the consequences of said battle to be placed firmly on this "all-powerful" being's shoulders. If you have the power to end the war - and the subsequent bloodshed - and you don't, then the blood is on your hands, not on the hands of the lowly foot troops just trying to survive.

I hope I am not there when the Devil has you on the end of the fork and asks you which side first.

There is no devil, no hell, no demons wielding pitchforks, no heavenly battle between good and evil. It's all make-believe. I have about as much reason to fear being skewered by Satan's fork as I do Santa not bringing me any presents this year.

by polyglide Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:37 pm

The trouble is Shirina you are trying to comprehend with a human mind that which is between two minds and beings, that you are unable to comprehend.

The present problem, I bet they all say they forgot.

I know, that you know, that intelligence is involved in ceation, you just cannot belive in a God.

I do not only have faith, I have a certainty that God exists, as have many other people who have asked and been assured of his existance in many ways, you still need faith but that faith will be strenghthend if you only ask.

by Tosh Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:17 pm

I have a certainty that God exists,

You are also certain evolution has not been provem, this speaks volumes about your thinking abilities, just accept it, you are a complete dunce who will believe anything.

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