Aussies condemned to death in Indonesia

by bambu Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:08 am

First topic message reminder :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GL042bOoSU

The Condemned - Indonesia

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'Muslim' Indonesia, ...Obama's very best friend in the whole world, has sentenced two Aussie kids to death for drug smuggling.

Obama 'recently' declared himself "America’s first Pacific president."

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1109/29511.html

'America's first Pacific president'

TOKYO — Trying to reassure allies and rivals, President Barack Obama billed himself Saturday as "America’s first Pacific president," promising the nations of Asia "a new era of engagement with the world based on mutual interests and mutual respect."

Obama spoke extensively of his own roots in the region – his birth in Hawaii, living in Indonesia as a boy, his mother spending nearly a decade working in the villages of Southeast Asia.

##### #####

He needs to talk his very best friends in the whole world Indonesia into taking Chan and Sukumaran off death row.
...because if 'Muslim' Indonesia execution-shreds Chan [now a Christian, mentored by the Salvation Army], and Sukumaran, .....Obama's 'new era of engagement' will be a dismal failure as his buddies in Indonesia get put on the hate list of most people in Australia...and all that entails.

Chan and Sukumaran will be lodging an appeal later this year to the President of Indonesia for clemency, but he doesn't grant any sort of clemency to drug smugglers, so "WW3" in the region looms large. Smile

Indonesia just doesn't get it.
Obama needs to explain it to them.

Will Obama have Chan and Sukumaran taken off death row, or will he let them be execution-shredded by 'Muslim' Indonesia his very best friends?

That is the question.

by bambu Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:04 am

RockOnBrother wrote:
Drug smugglers are mass murderers. Malaysia, Indonesia, and Singapore have chosen to diminish mass murder within their sovereign jurisdictions by eliminating from their sovereign jurisdictions a certain identifiable segment of mass murderers.

More like the 'victims' 'knock on the drug dealers' doors', buy the illegal drugs, and consume willingly the illegal drugs, and then die.
Whose fault is that?
Their own...'personal responsibility'.
Certainly as much their own fault as that of the drug dealers.

A perfect example;

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2007/02/20/1171733723767.html

Annabel's deadly drug mistake

Annabel Catt ... died after taking drugs.
Photo: Courtesy Channel Seven

Annabel Catt, 20, a dance teacher and former vice-captain of Narrabeen Sports High School, died after being taken to hospital before dawn on Sunday.

She had gone to a house in Warriewood after the Good Vibrations festival at Centennial Park on Saturday.

Medical officers were told Ms Catt, who was showing signs of respiratory distress, had taken MDMA, commonly known as ecstasy.

http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2007/s2051240.htm

As the music blared out from the festival in Sydney's Centennial Park, a group of friends sat down in a circle on the grass outside.

(sound of dance music)

They were about to head in, but first they had to distribute the drugs that they'd organised.
There were four young women, including now 21-year-old Bodene Sheed, and 20-year-old Annabel Catt, who would die later that night.

Sheed had collected from her boyfriend six ecstasy tablets and six caps of MDMA - a powder form of ecstasy.
She passed a plastic bag with the drugs to one of the group, who wasn't Annabel Catt, and they were handed out and then the women went in.

Her friend Bodene Sheed was the one who provided the drug, and this afternoon Sheed was sentenced to 120 hours of community service.

The Catt family sees both girls as victims of a young generation's drug-taking culture.

by ROB Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:05 am

bambu wrote:
RockOnBrother wrote:
Drug smugglers are mass murderers. Malaysia, Indonesia, and Singapore have chosen to diminish mass murder within their sovereign jurisdictions by eliminating from their sovereign jurisdictions a certain identifiable segment of mass murderers.
More like the 'victims' 'knock on the drug dealers' doors', buy the illegal drugs, and consume willingly the illegal drugs, and then die.

Illegal drug smugglers/dealers smuggle/deal premeditated death for profit, which makes them mass murderers-for-profit.

bambu wrote:
Whose fault is that?

It is the fault of illegal drug smugglers/dealers that smuggle/deal premeditated death/murder-for-profit.

bambu wrote:
… as much their own fault as that of the drug dealers.

Each dead illegal drug user commits premeditated murder against one person. Each illegal drug smuggler/dealer commits premeditated murder against every dead illegal drug user that purchased illegal drugs from that drug dealer. Accordingly, illegal drug drug smugglers/dealers are mass murderers-for-profit.

by ROB Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:07 am

bambu wrote:
RockOnBrother wrote:
Each dead illegal drug user commits premeditated murder against one person.¹ Each illegal drug smuggler/dealer commits premeditated murder against every dead illegal drug user that purchased illegal drugs from that drug dealer.² Accordingly, illegal drug drug smugglers/dealers are mass murderers-for-profit.³

True.
True.
True.

I’m glad that you understand these three truths.

by bambu Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:11 am

RockOnBrother wrote:
bambu wrote:
RockOnBrother wrote:
Each dead illegal drug user commits premeditated murder against one person.¹ Each illegal drug smuggler/dealer commits premeditated murder against every dead illegal drug user that purchased illegal drugs from that drug dealer.² Accordingly, illegal drug drug smugglers/dealers are mass murderers-for-profit.³

True.

True.

True.

I’m glad that you understand these three truths.

I understand no such thing.
They're not my words...I made a mess of that post and quotes, for which I apologise to the forum.
I must be sentenced to posting retraining.

Here's one for you;

http://ronabbass.wordpress.com/2011/06/29/beheaded-saudi-arabia-executes-indonesian-maid/

Beheaded! Saudi Arabia Executes Indonesian Maid

......condemned Saudi Arabia for beheading Ruyati binti Sapubi, saying that the Saudis are still living in the era of ignorance, IRNA reported Wednesday.

....... slammed Riyadh for indicting and then executing the Indonesian national without giving her a chance to defend herself, and described the Saudis as uncivilized.

Saudi officials executed her by sword and then dangled her corpse from a helicopter to make sure the public could see the result of the execution.

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xsf5b1_furore-over-indonesian-s-beheading-in-saudi_news

Furore over Indonesian's beheading in Saudi

video ...of grieving relatives in Indonesia.

http://www.arabianbusiness.com/photos/indonesians-protest-maid-s-execution-in-saudi-arabia-407070.html?img=0

Indonesians protest maid's execution in Saudi Arabia

Indonesia...don't ya just love em?
Sentence other nations' children to death and execution-homicide them without 'blinking', yet go 'ballistic' and 'scream' in outrage when other nations execution-homicide their children.

Indonesian officials, including the President, have been writing to, protesting to, and lobbying other nations, including Singapore and Malaysia from memory, who have sentenced and are sentencing Indonesian citizens to death.

Aussie boys Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran are still on death row in Indonesia.

by ROB Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:53 am

bambu wrote:
RockOnBrother wrote:
Each dead illegal drug user commits premeditated murder against one person.¹ Each illegal drug smuggler/dealer commits premeditated murder against every dead illegal drug user that purchased illegal drugs from that drug dealer.² Accordingly, illegal drug drug smugglers/dealers are mass murderers-for-profit.³

True.

True.

True.

I’m glad that you understand these three truths.
I understand no such thing.

Then I withdraw the compliment.

bambu wrote:
They're not my words…

They are the last words in your post.

bambu wrote:
I made a mess of that post and quotes, for which I apologise…

Apology accepted.

bambu wrote:
http://ronabbass.wordpress.com/2011/06/29/beheaded-saudi-arabia-executes-indonesian-maid/

Beheaded! Saudi Arabia Executes Indonesian Maid

......condemned Saudi Arabia for beheading Ruyati binti Sapubi, saying that the Saudis are still living in the era of ignorance, IRNA reported Wednesday.

… indicting and then executing the Indonesian national without giving her a chance to defend herself, and described the Saudis as uncivilized.

Saudi officials executed her by sword and then dangled her corpse from a helicopter to make sure the public could see the result of the execution.

As you’ve failed to mention for what offense Ruyati binti Sapubi has been beheaded, you’ve failed to provided sufficiently comprehensive information for an objective unbiased observer to make an assessment and reach a conclusion.

While you are correcting this error, please know that, according to the most recent information available to me, Saudi Arabian courts are allowed to hear testimony only from male Muslims. Unless the same is true in Indonesia, Malaysia, and Singapore, comparisons between those three countries and Saudi Arabia are necessarily errant.

by bambu Mon Oct 22, 2012 10:07 am

No error, trying not to breach copyright by posting too much of an article.
The offence for which she was execution-homicided is in the link.

It's the execution-homiciding of Indonesian citizens ...anywhere...that Indonesia is outraged about.

by Shirina Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:48 pm

Beheaded! Saudi Arabia Executes Indonesian Maid

The website you used for this story was nasty ... not the article itself, but the comments. It didn't take long for the posters there to start up with ridiculous 9/11 "inside job" conspiracy theories, one of them wants to die fighting Zionists, and yet another said that the USA, Israel, and Saudi Arabia will be "ashes beneath the feet of the righteous." Might as well be the Craig's List of international terrorism.

by ROB Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:21 pm

bambu wrote:No error, trying not to breach copyright by posting too much of an article.
The offence for which she was execution-homicided is in the link.

Inclusion of a short phrase that identifies the offense for which Ruyati binti Sapubi has been beheaded will not put you in danger of violating Cutting Edge copyright policies. The error remains.

by bambu Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:12 pm

Only in your mind does the non-error remain.
The offence for which she was put to death is clearly stated in the link.

Posting too much text would indeed put me in danger of violating Cutting Edge's copyright policies.

by ROB Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:11 am

You have posted six lines of quoted text in normal screen width and three lines of quoted text in wide screen width. Your implied claim that inclusion of a short phrase identifying the offense for which Ruyati binti Sapubi has been beheaded would cause your post to be in violation of Cutting Edge copyright policies is invalid.

Your error remains.

by bambu Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:17 am

I made no error.

I didn't include this bit either;

Saudi Arabia “broke the norms and manners of international relations” by carrying out the death sentence, the president said.

The idea is to post the 'flavour' of the story, and any objective unbiased observers wishing to learn more click on the link and read it for themselves.

From the forum copyright rules;

Best practice is to post a short, eye-catching extract from an article in order to get people’s attention, followed by the link to the source so that they can read the rest if they feel so inclined.

Anyway, the offence for which she was beheaded is 'irrelevent'...it's Saudi Arabia's actions that are central to the story.

by ROB Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:40 am

bambu wrote:
I made no error.

You have made an error of omission.

bambu wrote:
I didn't include this bit either;

Saudi Arabia “broke the norms and manners of international relations” by carrying out the death sentence, the president said.

That “bit” does not identify the offense for which Ruyati binti Sapubi has been beheaded; thus, that “bit” pertains in no way to your error of omission.

bambu wrote:
The idea is to post the 'flavour' of the story, and any objective unbiased observers wishing to learn more click on the link and read more for themselves.

Conveying the “‘flavor’ of the story” of necessity includes conveying the main idea of the story, an idea that, by omission of the offense for which Ruyati binti Sapubi has been beheaded, has been conveyed incompletely.

Your error of omission remains.

by bambu Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:48 am

Shirina wrote:
Beheaded! Saudi Arabia Executes Indonesian Maid

The website you used for this story was nasty ... not the article itself, but the comments. It didn't take long for the posters there to start up with ridiculous 9/11 "inside job" conspiracy theories, one of them wants to die fighting Zionists, and yet another said that the USA, Israel, and Saudi Arabia will be "ashes beneath the feet of the righteous." Might as well be the Craig's List of international terrorism.

I didn't get as far down as any comments, I'll check more thoroughly in future.

by ROB Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:55 am

bambu wrote:
… the offence for which she was beheaded is 'irrelevent'...it's Saudi Arabia's actions that are central to the story.

Conveyance of the offense for which Ruyati binti Sapubi has been beheaded is absolutely relevant and essential to the reality of the story. Trained journalists know that telling the story involves telling “the five ‘w’s’ and the ‘h’”, “who” (noun – person/place/thing), “what” (verb – active/passive action or state of being), “when”, “where”, “why”, and “how.”

In this story excerpted by you hereon, Saudi Arabia (“who” – thing) has beheaded Ruyati binti Sapubi (“what” - active verb accompanied by object noun), perhaps somewhere in Saudi Arabia (“where”, implied – you didn’t include a specific place in your excerpt) perhaps in the recent past), perhaps sometime in the recent past (“when”, implied - you didn’t include a specific date and time in your excerpt), by sword (“how”), for some as yet yet-to-be-revealed reason (“why”, not even implied - you didn’t include a specific reason in your excerpt).

Fortunately for the reader, it can easily be assumed that Ruyati binti Sapubi was in fact beheaded sometime in the recent past somewhere in Saudi Arabia. No such reasonable assumption can be made about why she was beheaded.

Your error of omission remains.

by tlttf Tue Oct 23, 2012 5:25 pm

End of lecture (maybe)?

by Shirina Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:13 pm

End of lecture (maybe)?

But your homework is to read chapters 5 and 6, then write a 20 page paper on the rights of foreign nationals convicted of crimes. Include footnotes (ALA style), citations, and a bibliography. It's worth 20% of your final grade.

by oftenwrong Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:46 pm

"But your homework is to read chapters 5 and 6, then write a 20 page paper on the rights of foreign nationals convicted of crimes. Include footnotes (ALA style), citations, and a bibliography. It's worth 20% of your final grade."

Equivalent marks may be earned with a short essay entitled, "The futility of anonymous debate" for those with a mental age exceeding twelve.

by bambu Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:59 pm

Hmmm, the rights of foreign nationals convicted of crimes?
The luck of the draw really.

Foreign nationals from Malaysia, Indonesia. Singapore, America etc convicted of crimes in Australia ...drug smuggling, gun smuggling, keeping sex slaves, people smuggling, murder, identity theft/fraud etc are not subject to a death penalty sentence by the state...as bambu-ilk had it abolished long ago...'human rights abuse', 'sickening', 'torture', 'makes the state a cold-blooded killer of human beings', 'not in our name you don't... we're outraged by your death sentences' etc.
Marched in the streets...the Cross and the noose leading one protest parade;

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2007/02/01/1169919473225.html

It took a while, but we won in the end.
We also lobbied later on for 'life means life' sentences for murderers, not the up to '30 years' in place at the time.
We got that too.

One Malaysian murderer, of Aussie heart surgeon Dr Chang, was released from prison and deported recently...into the arms of his family in Malaysia.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/national/one-killer-of-a-wedding/story-fndo317g-1226499918860

One killer of a wedding

HE was embroiled in a storm on his release from jail 10 days ago - now convicted killer Chiew Seng Liew has walked into another blow-up after escorting his daughter down the aisle in Kuala Lumpur yesterday.

Drug users contribute to their own deaths...they're the ones who buy and use the illegal drugs.
Drug smugglers are criminals, and deserve to be punished, but not execution-homicided or jailed for life.

by ROB Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:54 pm

Shirina wrote:
But your homework is to read chapters 5 and 6, then write a 20 page paper on the rights of foreign nationals convicted of crimes. Include footnotes (ALA style), citations, and a bibliography. It's worth 20% of your final grade.

I do not assign meaningless “busywork” homework. Your assignment, if you decide to accept it, is to write an expository paper, on a topic of your choice, that clearly and comprehensively conveys to the reader the “who”, “what”, “when”, “where”, “why”, and “how” of your chosen topic.

APA-style in-text citations are preferred, as they are significantly clearer that ALA style footnotes. Your expository paper is your grade, 100% of your grade, if you prefer to think and act within the confines of that self-limiting mindset, so you need not worry about artificial grades being assigned to formative work product. The world little notes nor long remembers the GPAs of scholars; instead, the world notes and remembers the end product produced by scholars. We note and remember E=mc². Do we note and remember the algebra grade of the scholar that conceived E=mc²?

by ROB Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:42 am

bambu wrote:
Foreign nationals from Malaysia, Indonesia. Singapore, America etc convicted of crimes in Australia ...drug smuggling, gun smuggling, keeping sex slaves, people smuggling, murder, identity theft/fraud etc are not subject to a death penalty sentence by the state…

Australian nationals convicted of crimes in Australia - drug smuggling, gun smuggling, keeping sex slaves, people smuggling, murder, identity theft/fraud, and other crimes, are not subject to the death penalty.

Nationals from Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore, America USV, Australia, and all other countries convicted of drug smuggling in Malaysia, Indonesia, and Singapore are subject to the death penalty.

If one contemplates choosing drug smuggling as one’s vocation in life, one might ought to pay attention in geography class.

bambu wrote:
Drug smugglers are criminals, and deserve to be punished, but not execution-homicided or jailed for life.

Pay attention in geography class.

“If you dance to the music, you got to pay to the piper.”

by bambu Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:20 am

There's a new century version;

"If you make our children dance to the death chamber music, stand by for the revenge that will be taken upon you."

by Shirina Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:23 am

"If you make our children dance to the death chamber music, stand by for the revenge that will be taken upon you."

And in America, we have ...

Republican Candidate In Arkansas Says Parents Should Seek Death Penalty Against ‘Rebellious Children’

A candidate for the Arkansas legislature, Charlie Fuqua, says children who don’t demonstrate “respect for parents” should be put to death, the Arkansas Times reports. Fuqua is a former member of the Arkansas legislature and has received support from the Arkansas Republican Party and two sitting members of Congress.

Here’s the key passage from Fuqua’s 2012 book, “God’s Law: The Only Political Solution“:

The maintenance of civil order in society rests on the foundation of family discipline. Therefore, a child who disrespects his parents must be permanently removed from society in a way that gives an example to all other children of the importance of respect for parents. The death penalty for rebellious children is not something to be taken lightly. The guidelines for administering the death penalty to rebellious children are given in Deut 21:18-21:

Fuqua helpfully notes that “This passage does not give parents blanket authority to kill their children.” Rather, parents would have to “follow the proper procedure in order to have the death penalty executed against their children.” Fuqua assures the reader that, in his view, the procedure would “rarely be used.” The threat of death would, however, “be a tremendous incentive for children to give proper respect to their parents.’

by bambu Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:27 am

Shirina wrote:And in America, we have ...

Republican Candidate In Arkansas Says Parents Should Seek Death Penalty Against ‘Rebellious Children’

Good Lord!!!

by bobby Wed Oct 24, 2012 5:57 pm

Yeah, who'd want a Fuqua like that for a parent.

by **Ivan** Mon Feb 16, 2015 8:48 am

The subject of this thread appears to be reaching a gruesome conclusion. The two Australian citizens, Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran, are expected to be executed by firing squad in Indonesia this week. It is thought likely that British woman Lindsay Sandiford will meet with the same fate in the not too distant future.

All three of them have been convicted of involvement in drug trafficking. Amnesty International reminds us that “the use of the death penalty for drug-related offences does not meet the threshold of the ‘most serious crimes’ as prescribed under international law”. Whatever your views on capital punishment, and however much you may abhor drug smuggling, there are disturbing circumstances surrounding these, and probably many other, death sentences for this crime.

Chan and Sukumaran were among nine Australians arrested in April 2005 by Indonesian police acting on information provided by the Australian Federal Police. Why didn’t the AFP wait until they arrived back in Australia and arrest them? In Indonesia, they were found guilty of providing the money, airline tickets and hotels to drug mules and sentenced to death. Their former lawyer, Muhammad Rifan, recently revealed he had information that the judges who handed down the death sentence had asked for bribes to give a lesser sentence.

They’ve been in prison for nearly ten years, Chan is now 31 and Sukumaran is 33. According to the head of Kerobokan prison, Chan and Sukumaran are considered leaders who have contributed to prison life by holding computer and art lessons and helping the rehabilitation of fellow inmates. Wouldn’t they be of more use alive, making amends for their crimes, than dead, as a supposed deterrent to others?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-02-12/bali-nine-timeline-andrew-chan-myuran-sukumaran/6085190

Drug trafficking is unpopular with decent people in every country, and Indonesia has a president who is playing to the gallery. He’s promised to reject all appeals for clemency by people sentenced to death for drug-related crimes, even though he is supposed to consider each case individually. Yet he campaigns for Indonesians, including drug traffickers, on death row in other countries and has even paid money to have their lives spared.

http://theconversation.com/indonesias-stance-on-the-death-penalty-has-become-incoherent-37619

Countries which execute for drug-related offences rarely kill the organ grinders, just the monkeys. And there is always the danger that those apprehended have had drugs planted in their possessions, have unwittingly carried drugs for partners who have then disappeared, or been coerced into smuggling by threats to their relatives.

I’ve always been opposed to capital punishment, but I can see that there is a simple logic to killing those who have killed; I don’t think drug offenders are in the same league. Murderers shoot you, or stab you, or blow you up, you don’t get a say in the matter. You do have the choice as to whether you go knocking on a drug pusher’s door to buy your next ‘fix’. If you’ve got an addiction, seek medical help. Nobody forces you to take drugs, and if nobody did take them the drug barons would go out of business – as they would of course if drugs were decriminalised and controlled, but that’s for another thread:-

https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t200-should-drugs-be-legalised

by **Ivan** Wed Apr 29, 2015 11:15 pm

Joko Widodo became the president of Indonesia in October 2014 after a narrow election victory. He was soon thought to be out of his depth and lost popularity. However, about 76% of Indonesians support the death penalty and Widodo saw a chance to improve his standing in the country by taking a harsh stand on drug trafficking. Now those two Aussies, the subject of this thread, have been judicially murdered by firing squad, along with six other men. That means 14 people have been executed in Indonesia so far this year – 12 of them foreign nationals – and not one of them had ever killed anyone.

Presumably it’s considered that anyone who has drugs in their possession intends to sell them on to others, which is not always the case (although the quantity can be a clue). Obviously when they’re apprehended in possession, these people haven’t had the chance to distribute those drugs. In most cases in the civilised world, if a crime is foiled, those arrested don’t usually receive as severe a punishment as those who go on to commit the offence and then get caught. With drugs, just possession and/or intention to supply is sufficient to get you executed in a number of Asian countries.

I don’t know of any country which executes motorists who cause death by reckless driving. But aren’t such people worse than drug traffickers? We don’t have a choice not to encounter a maniac driver if we happen to be on a road at the same time as one, but we do have a choice not to take drugs.

Indonesian laws make almost no distinction between drug dealers and drug users, and laws that criminalise and discriminate against addicts have become more draconian over time. The political capital that can be reaped by Widodo from the dramatic execution of drug dealers is undoubtedly higher than if he were to focus on improving the everyday situation of drug users through harm-reduction programmes. Sadly, he prefers wasting people, even those who have been rehabilitated and were doing good work inside prison, such as those two young Aussies.

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