The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1)

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EUROSCEPTICS & UKIP CANNOT ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS

In the late 1980s the nations of the European Free Trade Association (EFTA) began to seriously contemplate joining the EU, there were many reasons for this, but they included the realisation that it was the only way forward for trade and prosperity, in the case of Sweden it was also the fact that several large companies made it clear they would relocate if Sweden stayed outside the EU.

Current EFTA members: Iceland - Lichtenstein - Norway - Switzerland

EFTA members who joined the EU: - Austria - Denmark - Portugal - Sweden - United Kingdom - Finland

In 1994 the European Economic Area was formed (EEA), this was a compromise organisation for those members of EFTA who did not or could not join the European Union, joining the EEA meant access to EU markets, but the deal also meant accepting EU rules, even though these states were not / are not EU members.

THE QUESTION TO THE EUROSCEPTICS IS THIS: After leaving the EU, would the UK be free of all EU rules, regulations, directives and laws?

And the straighforward answer is: NO  and here is why:-

A meat production company in Lincolnshire is close to signing a multi-million pound deal with a European supermarket chain, just before the two managing directors take out their pens to sign the agreement, the boss of the supermarket chain pulls out a list of conditions.

The list of conditions consist of EU rules, unfortunately Britain has left the EU and unless the British meat producer conforms to EU standards the deal cannot go ahead, the rules cover everything from animal welfare, temperature control, employee rights, labeling, weight, moisture content and hygiene.

So no matter what happens in the future, the UK will always have to accept EU laws

Think of Norway as an example of a European nation outside the European Union, Norway is a member of the European Economic Area ( the EEA ), and as such has to accept into law virtualy every EU rule, regulation, directive and law, furthermore Norway has had to sign up to many of the EU treaties.

Norway has no say and no vote on any of the EU legislation which it accepts, and this is exactly how Britain would end up, inside the EU the UK influences legislation, it does have a say, and it does have a vote, unlike Norway.

A FREE TRADE AGREEMENT "JUST LIKE SWITZERLAND" [ Nigel Farage ]

According to UKIP, the future under them would be simple, all we need to do is leave the EU and sign up to a new free trade agreement, and the future would be bright  , but a free trade agreement ?, lets look at that word "agreement", an agreement is not one sided, it is between the parties that make the agreement, and lets face facts here, the EU will call the shots, not Britain.

The European Union is not going to change its rules to cater for a single nation of 60 million, especialy when that nation has left the EU but still wants all the benefits of belonging, namely trade.

I am afraid that under such circumstances, Germany, France, Italy and the rest would say "our way or not at all", the best solution by far is to simply remain within the EU and go forward into the future together.

Chas Peeps - yes - just yes - very nicely put

It should surprise nobody that there is a groundswell of opposition to the EU amongst British working people.  Things haven't been exactly rosy for anyone except the filthy rich since the credit crunch of 2008.  But in my opinion they've chosen the wrong target, because the problems haven't come from Brussels - they're completely home-grown Tory dogma which likes a supine working class to provide cheap labour for the maximisation of employers' profits.

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/news/britain-is-in-the-midst-of-a-working-class-revolt/ar-AAhc5NH?li=BBoPMmp

Earlier in the week, The Sun and The Times differed in their support for either side of the IN/OUT campaigns, but by today the latter's Editorial Leader has fallen into agreement to withdraw from the EU.

Niall Ferguson suggests the reason, by one of those "I've got a degree in stating the bleedin' obvious" -type articles on the facing page.

The political aftermath of the murder of Jo Cox was complete.  Far from seeking to score political points, politicians on both sides of the debate on Britain's membership suspended their campaign and closed ranks to express their shock and offer condolences.


Implying that it's a bit odd when nobody comes out in support of assassination, presumably.

A week is a long time in Politics
Harold Wilson

This time a week ago, the financial markets were in full retreat from the anticipation of a Brexit vote, but today the London Stock Exchange FTSE gained three percent and the Pound strengthened against foreign currencies.

Additionally, the broad grin dropped from Nigel Farrage's face.

Keep watching!

oftenwrong wrote:

Implying that it's a bit odd when nobody comes out in support of assassination, presumably.

Yes quite. The great thing about being politically active on the 'front line' is that it keeps you in close contact with attitudes and shifting opinions on the street. I was on a Green Party stall campaigning and leafletting for #Remain in the centre of one of Lancashire's former mill towns yesterday. The town is predominantly a combination of white working class and Asian heritage communities. It has been fortunate to enjoy less fraught race relations than several nearby towns with similar population mixes.

The most striking aspect of yesterday's session was that the large majority of white working class people were to varying degrees negative or hostile to the #Remain campaign. Some walked by shaking their heads. Some said, 'No, I'm voting Out' and others 'You've got to be joking, I'm for Brexit'. It wasn't universal but it was the dominant response. People responding in this way came across as dispossessed, alienated and kicking out at the EU because they could, a protest just as resolute as abandoning the Labour Party for UKIP in 2015.

Conversely, virtually every other ethnic or social group was open to listen and to engage, to discuss the issues and many supported #Remain.

This alienation of our indigenous working class has not happened since 2015 or even since 2010. This has developed through the years of Labour Blairite Governments where we were all supposed to be 'middle class now' according to the then Messiah. To deny the existence of the working class, its values and culture was in itself deeply offensive. Mass migration from Eastern Europe was bound to depress wages and increase job insecurity for native workers unless positive measures were taken to limit these effects. Blair let the market rip. The National Minimum Wage was there for workers (something I greatly welcomed at the time) but was never increased quickly enough or enforced in any meaningful way. Gangmasters and traffickers were not actively sought out, prosecuted and deported, resulting in UK workers being undercut on price and out-worked in hours due to gangmasters' grip on and exploitation of migrant workers. The victims were our own undercut workers put out of steady work and the migrants themselves, earning well below the National Minimum Wage and crammed into overcrowded slum housing. The winners were British businesses and rich individuals enjoying an endless supply of cheap labour to be hired and fired Dickensian style. The left failed to challenge Blair in Government and over 13 years, any remaining hope in the UK's working class that Labour was acting in their interests was lost.

We saw the warning first in Scotland's Independence Refendum in 2014 when Labour lost the working class vote to the SNP's cause. Better Together was busy warning people who already had next to nothing that they would be worse off if Scotland broke away and it's economy collapsed. Nothing cannot be taken way, the fear strategy was meaningless to Scottish working class voters. Labour had 'lost the dressing room' North of the Border. No need to discuss what happened eight short months later.

There is a similar pattern of behaviour across the UK in the EU referendum. Fear works on people with something to lose, anyone with a stake in the economy, in society. Take that stake off people and don't be surprised if fear no longer works. It becomes politics of desperation, listening to whoever tells them what they want to hear. There really can be no fear or risk of worse for people who already feel crushed and sidelined, even if it CAN get worse (e.g. Gove's stated wish to dismantle the NHS). Their perception is that it can't and in politics perception not facts is King.

Bernard Jenkin MP, Conservative supporting the Leave Campaign vocalised this outside Westminster today following the Parliamentary tribute to Jo Cox MP following her brutal murder (or, subject to further investigation, assasination). I could not agree more. I have seen and heard it for myself. There are very ugly elements within the general sentiment. I remain convinced of two things if the UK votes for Brexit on Thursday. The first is that the far and hard right will be re-energised and feel vindicated, that they have a mandate. The second is that those same forces will bear down even more heavily on the working class that will, along with others, have let the Genie out of the bottle. I hope my predictions are wrong on both counts. I hope that the Labour Party aligns with others on the progressive left who want REAL change and social justice. Most of all, over the next three days I hope that enough working class people see the trap set by the reactionary right, choose to remain in the EU for stability, fight for a left of centre movement that works for them once more and fight for democracy and social justice in the UK, where all of the serious problems really lie.

All of us on the left MUST stop blaming far right agitators or working class people for this situation. The left must win the working class back before the dominoes start to topple through the break up of the UK and the EU. If #Remain wins when the result comes on Friday, it will probably be by a hair's breadth. There would be no grounds to gloat, nothing to be proud of. It would only be immediate disaster averted.

If it's a vote for #Brexit, we need to brace for whatever turmoil, injustice, tyranny and struggle lies ahead.

Whatever the result, everyone on the left must work tirelessly to show how we can give ALL of the UK's people a stake in its economy, society and politics. That is how we prevent fascism, not by defacing or criticising Farage's obnoxious posters.

Wise words, Mr Peeps - and perhaps the priority for any Socialist Party with intentions of becoming the next government is for an educational programme designed to produce an INFORMED electorate.

Beginning with an ability to recognise brain-washing from the right-wing press, when they see it.

Another priority would of course have to be deciding to work cooperatively with all socialist leaning parties, rather than the undedifying spectacle we had in 2015 of the Greens campaigning almost more strongly against Labour than against the incumbent government.

We need a unified left in this country - both Labour and the Greens have a lot to say, but it seems neither can thrive alone

Thanks oftenwrong for your comment. I agree that progressive parties in the UK must find a 'workaround' to our MSM to enable them to communicate directly with the electorate to encourage informed debate.

I understand Boatlady's position but largely disagree with it. I got a very bloody nose on here before GE2015 from some Labour supporters and stopped posting for some time as a result because I felt I was getting some very tribal reactions rather than reasoned ones. I think you know that I was active in Labour for nine years, CLP Political Education Officer, Secretary and Councillor. I left when Blair decided to invade Iraq. I had about 14 years out of politics disillusioned which broke my heart and a habit of a lifetime. The two party system is dead but our FPTP voting system which was designed for it hasn't caught up with pluralist politics and parties of which Labour remains one of the big two. Few Tories would contest that the Conservative Party is actually at least two parties - some should be in UKIP and the remainder Conservative. Labour is also at least two parties. Some Blairites should be in the Conservative Party and some on the left should be in the Greens or TUSC etc.

The withering criticism of Labour from the Greens was over its timid election platform and failure to adopt even those populist policies with majority public support that the Greens stood on e.g.:
Anti fracking
Nationalisation of rail

Further, Labour still resisted wholesale constitutional and electoral reform including the Lords, voting system etc. and put itself in the position of an enabler of Tory austerity rather than clearly opposing it. The Greens were very pleased to quadruple their vote share from 2010 and should have had 25 MP's elected instead of being lucky to keep 1. This however is not where Labour's votes went. Most went to UKIP which must be a very uncomfortable fact for those in Labour to accept as it shows that the working class is turning away from it in very large numbers.

Other key areas of policy difference were:
Anti austerity
Basic Income Scheme
Anti Trident
Drive to 100% renewables and Smart Grid
PR
Abolition of Lords and replacement with alternative Second Chamber
Repeal of most repressive anti trade union laws

As a Chair of a local Green Party, I talk constantly with both Greens and Labour activists. I am not aware of a single activist who has left the Greens to join Labour after Corbyn's election as leader. This is because there is no belief that Corbyn can change the PLP. Time will tell.

There is one glimmer of hope. One of our members is active in CND and had been frozen out of speaking to Labour for many years despite having received regular invitations up to about 20 years ago. Recently, she said she's been invited as a speaker so perhaps small changes are happening.

In my opinion, the gulf in policy positions is currently too wide to bridge which is why we need PR. Labour will need to win under FPTP one more time (more than a mountain to climb) and MUST then bring in PR to safeguard democracy in England & Wales from the gerrymandering Tories. This will enable honest splits to occur along the fault lines of the Big Two parties. Positions will become more honest. The cherries on the cake for me were seeing Labour abstain on the Infrastructure Bill (fracking) and Welfare Bill. Only one of the East Lancashire Councils (all of whom are Labour controlled) has voted against fracking. I judge by actions and feel the chasm remains. It is sad but true.

Maybe Labour needs some help from other broadly socialist parties to achieve that 'one more win' under FPTP - then fine tune the policies - one thing's for certain - the Tories definitely aren't going to espouse any of the policies you want.

I do take your point about the PLP, though - many of them seem to stand for things I don't approve of and opposition sometimes seems a bit lukewarm. I'm just afraid at the way Cameron and his ilk have trashed the country with the able assistance of the LibDems - if we don't soon get a change of government there's going to be nothing to save

Today's the Day!  Vote "leave" and give Nigel Farrage everything he wants ....

See you on the other side

well - I voted 'in' I think it was the right thing to do. I think there were very many in my town who voted 'out'

Whichever side wins, there will be bridges to mend tomorrow.

What this shows, in essence, is that we have an immature and incompetent Prime Minister leading an immature and incompetent government.
Basically, we've been living through the Eton 5th form sociology experiment for the last 6 years and it's all gone terribly wrong.

If only we had a decent government, the country wouldn't have come to this

Well I guess thats that then. 10% off sterling against USD and Asian equities sharply down overnight with the main market set to open as much as 6% down today. The economic argument against leave, at least, is already demonstrating that it was not scaremongering. In allowing the debate to drift from the economy to immigration the debate was lost.

No party has sought a mandate for negotiating the future terms of the UK's relationship with the EU. Let's have a general election please. That, after all, is democracy.

Good morning little Englanders of the Disunited Kingdom!

I guess this means a united Ireland, and an independent Scotland?

The electorate are fairly easily manipulated subject to the whim of media moguls, etc. They should not be given the responsibility of making decisions such as this which have immense consequences. Many clearly voted emotionally rather than rationally.....a reactionary punch aimed at the 'establishment' thrown out of misplaced anger over their misconceptions about immigration etc......fuelled by certain sections of the press/media/spokespersons/ukip....

The decision is not a knowledgeable one......it is borne of ignorance and prejudice. We elect governments to make these decisions because they have the knowledge and insight into the real pros and cons. Cameron was wrong to call this referendum.

Good morning edge-cutters, life just became more "interesting" after the lumpen-proletariat thinks it has given the Establishment a well-deserved kicking.  We'll see, but at least it appears we may soon be rid of that smug reptile Gideon.  Only to be replaced however by the egregious Gove.  Ho hum!

In the winter of 1939-40 there was a period labelled "the phoney war" during which nothing much seemed to happen - until Nazi bombers started to blitz London.  It's likely that nothing much will happen quickly either as a result of the referendum, until our former partners in the EU review their position, of which the most damaging will probably not be fiscal, but territorial.  Spain has already spoken of sealing their border with Gibraltar, and the French must begin to wonder why they act as our proxy in preserving Dover's sanctity from unwanted immigrants.

Politically none of the main parties have done very well out of it.  The Tories remain divided, and the in-fighting between Blairites and Corbynistas shows no signs of a healing process with a view to having a stab at power.  Ho hum again, but what will UKIP's bullfrog Farrage demand as his reward? The Freedom of Maidstone?

18-24: 75% Remain

25-49: 56% Remain

50-64: 44% Remain

65+: 39% Remain

....so basically all the baby boomers who had their free university education, affordable homes, caring welfare system, long term secure employment, cheap European holidays etc have decided to screw the younger generation over even more.

Sign this petition now.....though the site appears to have crashed due to numbers logging on to do so!

http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/24/petition-calling-for-a-second-eu-referendum-crashes-because-its-so-popular-5964230/

The Metro is a free newspaper published in tabloid format in the United Kingdom by DMG Media.

DMG signifies Daily Mail Group.

How do they know the AGE of voters in yesterday's referendum?

Just askin'.

(Not that I don't believe every word in the Daily Mail you understand)

ow.....only put that link up because the petition itself is actually down due to numbers of people trying to sign.

The ages are based on yougov poll.....which are usually only a few % out. In that case the figures, even if they are a few% out, are indicative of the voting differences between generations.

https://youtu.be/sRJby3PCfbo

Nigel Farage admits there WON'T be extra £350m for NHS

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/3-brexit-promises-campaigners-had-wriggled-out-of-before-breakfast-on-eu-referendum-results-day/ar-AAhA39F?li=AAhzr5D

ow,

.....and that's kind of what is wrong with Farage and UKIP. He knows he'll never be in government, or power, and so can make any outrageous statements/claims/lies he wants in order to scare/influence the electorate because he knows he'll never actually have to follow his big talk and big mouth up with action in regards to policy/legislation. The man is a charlatan.

You've only got to look at the comments on news programmes by members of the public who voted to exit. It's the elephant in the room, and probably not politically correct to say it, but the country is full of dumbed down, ignorant, thick as fcuk, docile, easily led bigots festering in quasi racist opinion, stewing in their own bile and lapping up the misinformation that enables them to blame immigration for all our woes.

The fact that they back the likes of Boris, Gove, IDS, Farage etc can only lead one to assume the dozy hordes are happy to be dragged back to Victorian era rules of sweatshops and working for a pittance, where our masters are our betters and we doff our caps to those 'born to rule'.

It makes me sick walking around UK streets knowing I'm surrounded by this kind of ignorant bigotry.

Respect the electorates vote! I don't bloody think so.

sickchip wrote:
You've only got to look at the comments on news programmes by members of the public who voted to exit. It's the elephant in the room, and probably not politically correct to say it, but the country is full of dumbed down, ignorant, thick as fcuk, docile, easily led bigots festering in quasi racist opinion, stewing in their own bile and lapping up the misinformation that enables them to blame immigration for all our woes.

I can't add anything to what sickchip said ^. I agree entirely with it, and the entire campaign avoided discussing it because it is the elephant in the room.

Voters get the government they deserve. That's the logic of a democracy. In the UK they have Press Barons to help them reach decisions.

oftenwrong wrote:Today's the Day!  Vote "leave" and give Nigel Farrage everything he wants ....

See you on the other side  

Yoohoo ... I can see you.       It's now the otherside.

Wow what an interesting future lies ahead. Been looking at reactions from many streams and there is hint of belief that the top elites unhappy about the result will make life difficult for British people. To be expected.

This is sometimes called "prescience":

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/news/brexit-is-a-fake-revolt-%E2%80%93-working-class-culture-is-being-hijacked-to-help-the-elite/ar-AAhkw0U

Shame it backfired. Or did it? Who knows what the faceless men behind Cameron and Osborne really want?

Here's Boris and co's plan......apparently!

https://youtu.be/sRJby3PCfbo

It's been fun watching the senior Brexiters running around the news rooms this morning denying that they said they would cut immigration, give more money to the NHS and that there was no rush to start the Article 50 process........Liam Fox even said that it was not an election and that voters did not understand what they were voting for when talking to Andrew Neil on Sunday Politics!!!!!!!

Blaming the victim is an established custom here, but the unexpected Tory majority in last year's GE is now compounded by an unexpected defeat for Cameron and Osborne's REMAIN.

The victorious Johnson/Gove/IDS/Farage Axis hadn't actually planned what they would do next. Uniting the Tory Party has never been easy, but now they have to do that plus organise about two years of Parliamentary business unscrambling Brussels red-tape as well as run the Country.

Jeremy Corbyn will have a field day if the Blairite career-chasers will let him.

ow,

Don't you realise this is not down to the Tories, or anybody else.

It is all Corbyn's fault. His fellow 'supposedly' Labour mps have chosen NOT to blame Cameron, the Tories etc; but instead have chose to blame Corbyn for the entire shit fest.

Well everybody else blames Corbyn for everything that's occurred since 1066, so why shouldn't they?

Somehow it's ok for Tories - members and electorate to have been given freedom to choose on the EU and vote either way without recrimination; but the Labour PLP rebels seem to think Labour supporters should do as they are told and be whipped into toeing the line without any freedom of choice.

It's been reported that Mr Corbyn has been booed in HoC by Labour MP's..........Will those MP's now own up to this behaviour and let their local 'supporters' know so they can decide if they still want to support them.....

Britain to leave Europe for a lie

Extracts from an article by Roger Cohen in ‘The International New York Times’ (28.06.16):-

"I have been overcome by gloom since Britain voted to leave the EU. It’s not just the stupidity of the decision. It’s not merely the lies of the charlatans who led the ‘Leave’ campaign. It’s not only the absence, now so evident, of any ‘Nextit’. It’s not even the betrayal of British youth. It’s far more: a personal loss. Europa, however flawed, was the dream of my generation.

Riding a European train, gazing at the lines of swaying poplars, the villages huddled around their church spires, it was often impossible, at least for me, not to look past the tranquillity to the blood-seeped soil and the tens of millions who gave their lives in Europe’s collective suicides. Well, as the Germans say, we had the blessing of late birth; and the duty inherent in that blessing was to build a united Europe. However, Britain tended to see the EU in prosaic terms; it had not been delivered from ignominy or tyranny by European integration.

Boris Johnson understood, in his scurrilous way, that the EU had become a perfect scapegoat for Western societies beset by the dilemmas of modernity. There will be no extra $470 million for the NHS from EU savings, after all. Immigration is not about to fall. Some of the regions that voted for Brexit are also those that get the most funds from Brussels. The union, for all its failings did not deserve to be betrayed by a huckster. It will not die because of this imbecilic vote, but something broke – a form of optimism about humankind, the promise of 1989."

8 of the most misleading promises of the Vote Leave campaign, ranked in order of preposterousness

1. We aren't going to see a fall in immigration levels.
2. We aren't going to have an extra £100 million a week for the NHS.
3. We aren't going to be able to stay in the single market.
4. We aren't going to get our sovereignty back.
5. We aren't going to save £350m a week.
6. We won't remain a world leader in research and development.
7. We aren't going to save £2bn on energy bills.
8. We aren't going to be a 'greater' Britain.

Details here:-
http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/8-of-the-most-misleading-promises-of-the-vote-leave-campaign-ranked-in-order-of-preposterousness--WyxD59VO3Nb

More or less what the 'remain' campaign was saying - and yet ----

Some people on the left genuinely believed that voting 'leave' would:
1/ Give sovereignty back to the UK
2/ Deny 'the Establishment' what it wants
3/ Prevent us being shackled by TTIP
4/ Create enough political instability for a socialist revolution
5/ Lead to rising wages for workers
6/ Free us from the 'undemocratic' EU
7/ Strike a blow against global corporations
Oh dear......

I knew a local politician on the left who voted 'Leave' - he hasn't yet fully shred his reasons - think it was something about shaking things up - he got that right

UK politics is like a Tequila based cocktail. You can shake it for as long as you like but you'll still find the neo-liberal grub at the bottom of the canister.