Can God love? (Part 1)
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Can God love? (Part 1)
First topic message reminder :
Can God love?
We are told that the mythical bible God is love or the epitome of love.
Archetypal Jesus said that we would know his people by the love, deeds and actions they showed others.
Jesus gave us examples of the deeds and works. Feed the poor, love all our neighbours, do not sin and many others.
Love then, seems to Jesus, to be something that must be shown by deeds, actions and works to be alive and true love. Love, like faith, without works is dead. Both St. James and Jesus agree on this.
It follows then that if God is not doing something to show this love then the love for man expressed in scriptures is wrong and God cannot love.
You are in the image of God. When you love someone you show them that love by works and deeds. This is how the recipient of that love knows it is there and that allows for reciprocity. You will agree that without reciprocity, true love cannot exist between two individuals. We must do things for each other for true love to exist.
Imagine what those you love would think if you never did anything to express your love. Imagine what you would think of the love of others towards you if they never did anything to show they loved you. See what I mean. Love always must have deeds to be real and true and reciprocity must be at play.
Love then has no choice but to be expressed if it is true love.
We are told that God loved his son so much that he planned to have him sacrificed even before the earth was created. This human sacrifice or any other human sacrifice, voluntary or not, is immoral and the notion that it is good to sacrifice an innocent victim to give the guilty believers a free ride into heaven is a completely self-gratifying notion and is completely immoral. One does not show love for someone by having them sacrificed for the sins of others when God himself stated that we are all responsible for our own salvation and cannot put that responsibility of the shoulders of a scapegoat Jesus.
Does love need deeds and works to be expressed?
Have you seen God express his love for us lately?
Regards
DL
These following speak to this issue if you wish to view them.
[youtube]
Can God love?
We are told that the mythical bible God is love or the epitome of love.
Archetypal Jesus said that we would know his people by the love, deeds and actions they showed others.
Jesus gave us examples of the deeds and works. Feed the poor, love all our neighbours, do not sin and many others.
Love then, seems to Jesus, to be something that must be shown by deeds, actions and works to be alive and true love. Love, like faith, without works is dead. Both St. James and Jesus agree on this.
It follows then that if God is not doing something to show this love then the love for man expressed in scriptures is wrong and God cannot love.
You are in the image of God. When you love someone you show them that love by works and deeds. This is how the recipient of that love knows it is there and that allows for reciprocity. You will agree that without reciprocity, true love cannot exist between two individuals. We must do things for each other for true love to exist.
Imagine what those you love would think if you never did anything to express your love. Imagine what you would think of the love of others towards you if they never did anything to show they loved you. See what I mean. Love always must have deeds to be real and true and reciprocity must be at play.
Love then has no choice but to be expressed if it is true love.
We are told that God loved his son so much that he planned to have him sacrificed even before the earth was created. This human sacrifice or any other human sacrifice, voluntary or not, is immoral and the notion that it is good to sacrifice an innocent victim to give the guilty believers a free ride into heaven is a completely self-gratifying notion and is completely immoral. One does not show love for someone by having them sacrificed for the sins of others when God himself stated that we are all responsible for our own salvation and cannot put that responsibility of the shoulders of a scapegoat Jesus.
Does love need deeds and works to be expressed?
Have you seen God express his love for us lately?
Regards
DL
These following speak to this issue if you wish to view them.
[youtube]
Greatest I am- Posts : 1087
Join date : 2012-04-25
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
It is the lack of faith that causes all the problems not faith itself.
polyglide- Posts : 3118
Join date : 2012-02-13
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
"Charity begins at home."
How true that is. Of course self preservation in most cases except perhaps for heros and close family comes first, but where has the love of thy neighbour dissapeared to?
In my book the fear of God was for many (not all) was adhered to in the past. Children had manners, respect for others and indeed themselves.
Look at the way the majority dress themselves today, Tee shirts at Theatres and god knows where else including interviews for jobs etc. Decency and morality has gone out of the window, replaced by greed and lack of care and responsibility.
The sixties were the start of all this and Thatcher finished the job with the dog eat dog attitude.
The upbringing with the fear of God brought about gratitude and respect, today we have neither.
How true that is. Of course self preservation in most cases except perhaps for heros and close family comes first, but where has the love of thy neighbour dissapeared to?
In my book the fear of God was for many (not all) was adhered to in the past. Children had manners, respect for others and indeed themselves.
Look at the way the majority dress themselves today, Tee shirts at Theatres and god knows where else including interviews for jobs etc. Decency and morality has gone out of the window, replaced by greed and lack of care and responsibility.
The sixties were the start of all this and Thatcher finished the job with the dog eat dog attitude.
The upbringing with the fear of God brought about gratitude and respect, today we have neither.
Mel- Posts : 1703
Join date : 2011-10-08
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
It's unlikely that people lacking in self-respect will show much respect to others. The downside for them is likely to be difficulty in earning a decent living, which regrettably encourages even worse behaviour through inchoate frustration.
oftenwrong- Sage
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
In my book the fear of God was for many (not all) was adhered to in the past. Children had manners, respect for others and indeed themselves.
Well, I have to disagree with you here, Mel. God didn't have anything to do with this. Children feared being whipped half to death with a tree branch more so than they feared God. Besides, when God is used as a bogyman under the bed to scare children, we've already lost sight of what God is supposed to be - the embodiment of love, not fear. I think the notion of "fearing" God is one thing that drives people into the arms of atheism. I don't wish to live my life in fear of a wrathful deity, do you? And trying to "love" a deity "with all your heart" as the Bible commands yet knowing you're scared to death of this being, that is a dichotomy many simply cannot deal with.
The irony here, Mel, is that your complaint about how people dress defeats your own argument. People didn't dress up for the theatre to impress or appease God. They did it to impress each other with their wealth. The fancier the clothes, the more wealthy you were, and people wanted everyone to know just how much money they had. THAT is part and parcel of greed, the very thing you claim has taken over our lives by dressing down with t-shirts. You know I respect you, but the point you're making here really isn't very logical.Look at the way the majority dress themselves today, Tee shirts at Theatres and god knows where else including interviews for jobs etc. Decency and morality has gone out of the window, replaced by greed and lack of care and responsibility.
In addition, whether you wear a t-shirt or a tux has absolutely nothing to do with morality. I, for one, am glad people no longer dress in formal attire to go sit in the dark with a bunch of strangers. That seems like such a waste of time to be engaged in something so pointless. The theatre used to be something only the wealthy could afford, and if we reverted back to those days, it would be so again. In economic times such as these, people are lucky to even afford a theatre ticket much less the very expensive attire to go with it. Men, sure, they can rent a tux for $50, but women have to buy their dresses to the tune of hundreds of dollars. No thanks! My prom dress in high school was $390 and I wore it once.
I know people in the past tended to dress better on a regular basis than they do today, but I see the fashion world for precisely what it is: A transparent competition to show off one's financial success, not to appease God or to demonstrate morality.
Shirina- Former Administrator
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Sorry, polyglide, but that's a baseless statement. There is nothing to indicate that atheists are the cause of all the world's problems. In fact, the opposite is true. If you look around the world at where most of the violence, war, and bloodshed is taking place, you'll find faith and religion at the core. People arguing over their differing god concepts has been the basis for countless millions of deaths, not to mention persecution, oppression, discrimination, and plain and simple bullying.It is the lack of faith that causes all the problems not faith itself.
Shirina- Former Administrator
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Shirina, Perhaps I should have said---fear of losing the love of God, perhaps that is more apropriate.
I too respect your views, however, they are IMO somewhat misguided.
Self esteem and respect not only for oneself, parents, teachers, the elderly, the sick and the feeble, along with respect for God and the Ten Commandments, is sadly missing in this country and perhaps in the USA.
The poor probably more so than the rich were God loving in years gone by.
Decency was top of the agenda. Yes there was exploitation of the poor by the rich and yes I agree religion has created wars and has been and is still full of hypcrites. If we had even only 60% of the population adhering to Gods wishes, then we would have a better place to live in with better people in it.
Your argument re dress I do not agree with. Good dress sense goes along
with cleanliness. To be seen clean rather than dirty surely matters to oneself and to others, it is not nesessarily done to "impress others" on wealth status as it may well have been many moons ago.
I too respect your views, however, they are IMO somewhat misguided.
Self esteem and respect not only for oneself, parents, teachers, the elderly, the sick and the feeble, along with respect for God and the Ten Commandments, is sadly missing in this country and perhaps in the USA.
The poor probably more so than the rich were God loving in years gone by.
Decency was top of the agenda. Yes there was exploitation of the poor by the rich and yes I agree religion has created wars and has been and is still full of hypcrites. If we had even only 60% of the population adhering to Gods wishes, then we would have a better place to live in with better people in it.
Your argument re dress I do not agree with. Good dress sense goes along
with cleanliness. To be seen clean rather than dirty surely matters to oneself and to others, it is not nesessarily done to "impress others" on wealth status as it may well have been many moons ago.
Mel- Posts : 1703
Join date : 2011-10-08
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
[quote="Shirina"]
Interestingly, MSN are currently running a Poll in Britain asking whether there should be a Law preventing parents from chastising children. More than 80% reject the idea of a legal prohibition. (Though European Law already forbids it).
.... God didn't have anything to do with this. Children feared being whipped half to death with a tree branch more so than they feared God.
Interestingly, MSN are currently running a Poll in Britain asking whether there should be a Law preventing parents from chastising children. More than 80% reject the idea of a legal prohibition. (Though European Law already forbids it).
oftenwrong- Sage
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
But this assumes that everyone in the country should be Christian and the lack of respect is due to not being Christian rather than simply being nasty people. This is just a slight variation on the oft-heard argument that non-Christians have no morality - which is, of course, dead-bang wrong. In the USA, it is not respect for God that is lacking but respect for each other. The Ten Commandments comes from the Old Testament, a book that focuses on a wrathful God dealing death and destruction at the drop of a hat. The only love there is the type commanded by God to be shown to him, not love and respect for each other. Notice how "love they neighbor as you would love yourself" is NOT found in the 10 Commandments. Americans are fixated on the Old Testament and completely ignore the New Testament; all they care about is monitoring other peoples' sins and casting judgment upon their neighbors, not loving or respecting them. According to the 10 Commandments, all they have to do is love and respect their parents and God, no one else. This attitude has extended even into the political arena.Self esteem and respect not only for oneself, parents, teachers, the elderly, the sick and the feeble, along with respect for God and the Ten Commandments, is sadly missing in this country and perhaps in the USA.
In the USA, our biggest Christian leaders do nothing but preach hatred, intolerance, and prejudice. They blame natural disasters on liberals, feminists, and the gays. They openly talk of imprisoning or even killing homosexuals. They are preoccupied with sexual sin and virtually ignore the plight of the poor - and they certainly don't give a hoot about the right for non-Christians to make their own choices. They openly mock and disdain other religions - Pat Robertson, a televangelist with millions of viewers, told a caller once on national television to destroy all of her friend's Buddha statues. Never mind the fact that the caller's friend was Buddhist, and never mind the fact that destroying someone else's property is a criminal offense. Oh, and never mind the fact that the Taliban destroyed those huge Buddhist statues in Afghanistan a few months before 9/11. Funny how American Christians are becoming the very same religious fascists that we've been fighting against for 10 years now. And if that weren't enough, American Christianity is apocalyptic. Many of them want to believe that the End of Days is just around the corner, and that alters the mood of the entire country. The belief that the "end is nigh" is paralyzing, it diminishes optimism for the future, it casts a pall of doom over the entire population whether you believe in this junk or not, and what's worse, it tends to cause self-fulfilling prophesies.
Perhaps British Christianity is different from American Christianity, but here ... Christianity is running amok and nothing good is coming of it.
One of the best quotes of all time:
"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." -- Sinclair Lewis
I suppose the bottom line here is that we need a moral compass that isn't jaded by Bronze Age and non-Western ideas of what morality should be. We need to find a system that works for us, now, not a series of baffling rules written exclusively for Hebrews in the Middle East 3,000 years ago. The result of clinging to the Bible is that we have written and re-written it again and again trying to make it work in contemporary times, and we have to acknowledge that it is always subject to change. Because we have not done this, we both cherry pick and interpret the Bible to suit our own ends. As was said once by a theologian: "The Bible is like a human being - torture it long enough and you can get it to say anything."
No, we wouldn't have a better place with better people, Mel. Do you know why? It's because no one can agree on which of God's wishes to adhere to and which not to. I mean, seriously, do we drag our bratty kids out to the town square and stone them to death? Because that's what God wishes. Why not ask the homosexuals in America if they think our nation is better due to the fact that uppity Christians got their way over gay marriage? You claim that "if even only 60% of the population" was adhering to God's wishes, well, what of the other 40%? How many millions does that leave to be oppressed and persecuted for NOT being a part of the other 60%? So yes, perhaps if you are a Christian, a world such as you describe will be all rainbows and rose gardens, but history shows that, for everyone else, the world will be a very dark place indeed.If we had even only 60% of the population adhering to Gods wishes, then we would have a better place to live in with better people in it.
No ... actually, it doesn't. You make it sound as if good dress and cleanliness are mutually exclusive; if you see someone wearing a t-shirt, then that person obviously hasn't showered in a week. Is that really true? Of course not. I can assure you that if I decide to throw on a pair of jeans and a t-shirt to go out, my hygiene is still impeccable.Good dress sense goes along with cleanliness.
And just what, exactly, IS "good dress?" That's going to be a contentious issue, especially among women. Will women have to wear dresses everywhere, even when impractical? I can't help but remember old news reel footage of Russian women digging trenches while wearing dresses ... it was so ludicrous! And will these dresses have to be shin-length? Ankle-length to keep us modest? Will we revert to having to wear dreadful corsets? LOL! I don't mean to pick on you, Mel, but everyone thinks their way is the best way, the right way, the moral way. I look at teens these days loading themselves up with piercings and think, "Damn, that looks disgusting." But hey, no one is forcing me to get one. All generations have taken issue with how the next generation dresses. It's just the natural reaction to change.
Of course it does, but again, I think you're confusing hygiene with fashion sense, and let me tell you, fashion is extremely expensive for women. Not only do female styles constantly go in and out of fashion on an almost daily basis (causing women to be in a perpetual state of blowing tons of money on rebuilding wardrobes), good women's clothing costs a fortune. If you're curious, just do a google search on dresses and marvel at how expensive they are. Not formal dresses mind you, but just a good stylish dress ... we're talking $120 or more. For one. If you're a good shopper, you can get a pair of jeans and a few t-shirts for $30. So you can see why fashion has "gone down hill" to some degree. In truth, I love getting all dressed up sometimes, and I agree, it can make you feel gooooood. Mmmhmm! But it can be a money pit for the female half of the species, and many of us simply don't have that kind of cash.To be seen clean rather than dirty surely matters to oneself and to others
Take care, Mel.
Shirina- Former Administrator
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Join date : 2011-10-07
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Looks like i'm wasting my time Shirina as we can agree on very little.
I suppose we here in the UK have become more and more Americanised over the years and I do not know if we have benefitted from that or not.
Now that you have given me some idea of how you see it in America and
I must say I am somewhat surprised as I had thought most American people were God loving and visited church much more so than we do here in the UK.
The black USA population seem to be even more religious than the white's, is that so?
It is intersesting to note your views on religion and especially God and indeed the alternative very pro God views of our American friend Rock, seeing as both of you are well educated.
Back to dress again Modesty has also gone out of the window. Men years ago would drool over the sight of a womans ankle, now nothing is hidden from view and femaninity has also diminished to a very low level.
Even the Suffragettes of long ago continued to wear dresses and were still adhering to moral standards in general. Why now after centuries of women dressing differently to men has it changed? And why in your opinion has the American lost his true meaning of Christianity, which has obviously spread to us here in the UK?
Nice to chat Shirina,
Get well and keep well.
I suppose we here in the UK have become more and more Americanised over the years and I do not know if we have benefitted from that or not.
Now that you have given me some idea of how you see it in America and
I must say I am somewhat surprised as I had thought most American people were God loving and visited church much more so than we do here in the UK.
The black USA population seem to be even more religious than the white's, is that so?
It is intersesting to note your views on religion and especially God and indeed the alternative very pro God views of our American friend Rock, seeing as both of you are well educated.
Back to dress again Modesty has also gone out of the window. Men years ago would drool over the sight of a womans ankle, now nothing is hidden from view and femaninity has also diminished to a very low level.
Even the Suffragettes of long ago continued to wear dresses and were still adhering to moral standards in general. Why now after centuries of women dressing differently to men has it changed? And why in your opinion has the American lost his true meaning of Christianity, which has obviously spread to us here in the UK?
Nice to chat Shirina,
Get well and keep well.
Mel- Posts : 1703
Join date : 2011-10-08
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
At last mel, you've found a thread that suits you
tlttf- Banned
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
I have my doubts over whether that many Americans are really all that "God loving." What I see more is that Americans love using religion to point blame-fingers at everyone else to make themselves feel superior. There's a lot of ego at work more so than religious fervor, and the power religion gives to sit in judgment of others is the true ambrosia of American Christianity. Our version of it was founded on Puritanical beliefs, mind, and the Puritans were some of the most hard-core sin-persecutors in the history of mankind. Unfortunately, some of that superstitious nonsense has survived into modern times so that, in some respects, we're like cavemen with lots of gadgets and the largest cache of nukes on the planet. Our technology has far outstripped our cultural and spiritual growth, and that is incredibly dangerous.I must say I am somewhat surprised as I had thought most American people were God loving and visited church much more so than we do here in the UK.
Don't get me wrong, there are still tens of millions of Christians who practice their faith quietly and unobtrusively ... those who follow Jesus and the New Testament rather than the ugly wrathful murderous creature described in the Old Testament. Unfortunately, those millions often stand aside and let the radical, militant evangelicals run the show. The end result is a a form of Christo-fascism rooted in a cherry-picked version of Christianity and the love of greed, power, and the soulless entity called a "corporation."
Women have been victimized by fashion for centuries. Women have had to wear horribly impractical and uncomfortable clothing for the sake of modesty for far too long. Meanwhile, men can run around in nothing but a pair of shorts while women would sweat under several layers of ankle-length clothing even on the hottest days. I'm not a fan of long dresses - they restrict movement, get tangled in the legs, and get caught on every little protrusion you walk past. I had to wear a floor-length hoop skirt for a wedding once, and I was so puffed out I couldn't even get through the door. Fortunately, the hoops were collapsible so I could sit down, but US Southern women - who had to wear these monstrosities as daily wear - had no such thing. They had to remain standing indefinitely because rigid hoops in the skirt would keep it from resting on your legs if the woman sat down. Instead, it would fly up, giving anyone a very clear view.Modesty has also gone out of the window. Men years ago would drool over the sight of a womans ankle
BUT ... having said that, I agree that SOME outfits are atrocious, some skirts are so short I wonder why the girl bothered to even put it on. Yet I am grateful that I do not live in a time when women were burdened by as many as 5 petticoats ... and having to drag all of that fabric around with every footstep, having your skirts get stepped on by people standing too close, the hem picking up all the dirt and dust on the floor, getting them caught in car doors, risking having your skirt pulled right off you if it gets caught on a nail or twig. Men don't understand, I think, the headaches that all caused.
Yet I stand in agreement with you about the decline of femininity. Unfortunately, our patriarchal society has brainwashed even the women that femininity is weak, and it still goes on today.
Shirina- Former Administrator
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
You mustn't forget shirina, there are some that post here that believe the days when women covered their faces in lead paint was the height of fashion, unfortunately they probably still remember those days.
tlttf- Banned
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Thank's for the enlightenment on American "God loving" Shirina.
I have some sympathy with what you have said regarding womens atire both now and especially in the past, although please sympathise with me as these fangled uncomfortable under pants of mine are giving me hell.
Keep chugging.
Watch out!!!!!!!!! the TERMINATOR has turned up in the most unexpected of threads.
I have some sympathy with what you have said regarding womens atire both now and especially in the past, although please sympathise with me as these fangled uncomfortable under pants of mine are giving me hell.
Keep chugging.
Watch out!!!!!!!!! the TERMINATOR has turned up in the most unexpected of threads.
Mel- Posts : 1703
Join date : 2011-10-08
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Boredom can find expression in the most unexpected ways.
oftenwrong- Sage
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
You cannot use dress as any method of saying what is good or bad.
A tramp may be the most loving and best behaved person in the world and in the derss senses as being used by some would be classed as the most depraved.
It is what one does in life in all respects that maketh the man and actions determine the results not dress, nor anything else.
Some of the best dressd people have proven to be the worst in every other respect.
A tramp may be the most loving and best behaved person in the world and in the derss senses as being used by some would be classed as the most depraved.
It is what one does in life in all respects that maketh the man and actions determine the results not dress, nor anything else.
Some of the best dressd people have proven to be the worst in every other respect.
polyglide- Posts : 3118
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
poly, with respect I think you have not read the conversations between myself and Shirina fully.
I raised the subject of poor dress along with everything else that is bad which is going on in this country in particular.
I was talking about respect, not only respect for ones self but for others and most importantly respect for God. I feel that over the past decades and century, respect, decency, morality, has declined and IMO is due to the lack of education offered in these respects mainly by parents who are no longer interested nor believe in God. Without this, there is no basis upon which to have a society that is caring, non agressive and a less selfish in it's approach to others.
I raised the subject of poor dress along with everything else that is bad which is going on in this country in particular.
I was talking about respect, not only respect for ones self but for others and most importantly respect for God. I feel that over the past decades and century, respect, decency, morality, has declined and IMO is due to the lack of education offered in these respects mainly by parents who are no longer interested nor believe in God. Without this, there is no basis upon which to have a society that is caring, non agressive and a less selfish in it's approach to others.
Mel- Posts : 1703
Join date : 2011-10-08
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
I disagree! I come from a family that is totally non religious. My Mum and Dad taught us to dress in a way that wouldn't bring us unwanted attention and the possibility of being raped. Now that in itself kind of stinks too. I should be able to walk down the street in a mini skirt, seamed stockings, high heels and a boob tube without worrying if some person is gonna attack me just coz they're feeling a little horny. Everyone is different, some women wear clothes that I'd only ever wear in the bedroom to go out in broad daylight in, it's their choice. Decency in my opinion has nothing to do with religion anymore. For me, it never ever did have. I'm pro choice, woman should be able to wear what the hell they like, even if they end up looking like a trussed up turkey! lol We've been forced to wear clothes that men want us to wear for far too long! Modesty is way overrated! I might not like what some people wear, but having a bit of an anarchist streak, I sure as hell think we have the right to wear what we like! So in the immortal words of Miss Poly Sterene "oh bondage up yours" lol Also, I come from a family that taught me to care about others, not to be selfish etc etc and as I said, no religion was involved at all! People don't need to believe in god to be good! They just need to be taught that being good is far better than being bad...that's what's missing now all too often!
Adele Carlyon- Posts : 412
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trevorw2539- Posts : 1374
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
In order for the majority of a society to be moral, that morality has to be universal. In some cases it is universal - there are no societies or civilizations that allow unrestricted murder or theft, for instance. The trouble with religion and a belief in God setting the morality of a society - at least a free society - is that not everyone is going to subscribe to the same religion nor will everyone believe in a god. With each varying religion, as well as each religion's various denominations, trying to set the standard of morality, conflict will inevitably occur. In addition, the morality of the religions themselves are called into question since most of them do not fit well in modern times. Quite often, religion tells us to do things that we, today, would find not only immoral but also heinous, atrocious, and evil. Would we, today, drag a rebellious child into the town square and stone him to death? Of course not. Yet these kinds of religious proclamations have fueled the fire of hatred and oppression around the globe for centuries. Only secular law prevents the more radical among us from committing 21st Century crimes to appease a 1st Century God. No doubt that many in America would gleefully serial kill homosexuals if not barred from doing so by secular law - the Bible, after all, tells us they are an abomination and should be put to death. The Bible does NOT mention things such as a fair trial, the right to appeal, the presence of a jury, or cruel and unusual punishment. We see the effects of the absence of secular law in places such as the hinterlands of Afghanistan and Pakistan where women are flogged or executed - sometimes buried up to their necks and stoned - for religious crimes like adultery or falling in love with a member of a different sect. Let us not forget the dozen or so young girls who were allowed to be roasted in a fire by the Saudi morality police because the girls did not have the proper head-covering as they fled for their lives in the dead of night.
A belief in God does not always steer us in the right direction in terms of morality. Interpretations of holy text, varying degrees of fanaticism, and a plethora of cherry picking certain parts of a religion and deeming it more important than others all play a factor in determining a society's religious morality. All too often, no good comes of it. I shudder to think what would happen to America if the evangelists ever ran it. Even though they believe in the same God and read the same Bible you do, Mel, I fear that a morality dictated by religion would lead to a renewed Dark Ages. Moreover, they would control the mightiest military force ever seen on this planet. Even now, as most European nations are downsizing their military forces, the conservatives, backed by evangelicals, want to increase our defense spending by a full percent of our GDP - and 1% of our GDP is massive. We already spend more on our military than the next 12 nations combined including China, Russia, India and the entire European Union. The point being that the US could muster the power to enforce such a fanatical religious rule upon most of the world. That is not a cheery thought.
A belief in God does not always steer us in the right direction in terms of morality. Interpretations of holy text, varying degrees of fanaticism, and a plethora of cherry picking certain parts of a religion and deeming it more important than others all play a factor in determining a society's religious morality. All too often, no good comes of it. I shudder to think what would happen to America if the evangelists ever ran it. Even though they believe in the same God and read the same Bible you do, Mel, I fear that a morality dictated by religion would lead to a renewed Dark Ages. Moreover, they would control the mightiest military force ever seen on this planet. Even now, as most European nations are downsizing their military forces, the conservatives, backed by evangelicals, want to increase our defense spending by a full percent of our GDP - and 1% of our GDP is massive. We already spend more on our military than the next 12 nations combined including China, Russia, India and the entire European Union. The point being that the US could muster the power to enforce such a fanatical religious rule upon most of the world. That is not a cheery thought.
Shirina- Former Administrator
- Posts : 2232
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : Right behind you. Boo!
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
"In order for the majority of a society to be moral, that morality has to be universal. In some cases it is universal - there are no societies or civilizations that allow unrestricted murder or theft, for instance. The trouble with religion and a belief in God setting the morality of a society - at least a free society - is that not everyone is going to subscribe to the same religion nor will everyone believe in a god."
Morality never has been ahered to by the few in past times Shirina. Now unfortunately that has reversed, for it is the majority who shun morality and the few who adhere to it's principles. Remember we are not just discussing morality, there is respect, honesty, kindness, and consideration for one's fellow being to put into the pot. The same applies, the majority do not adhere to these ways anymore. This has IMO more to do with lack of interest and education on the teachings of the subject of Jesus and god.
Incidentally I am no church attender, however, my parents taught me about the workings of god at home and not only am I thankful for that education, but have been able to use that belief to help me and others that have been in total despair at times during my lifetime.
Unfortunately it seems to take wars or catastrophes to bring people really together in a brotherly fashion. Many an atheist has cried out to got at the last breath.
Morality never has been ahered to by the few in past times Shirina. Now unfortunately that has reversed, for it is the majority who shun morality and the few who adhere to it's principles. Remember we are not just discussing morality, there is respect, honesty, kindness, and consideration for one's fellow being to put into the pot. The same applies, the majority do not adhere to these ways anymore. This has IMO more to do with lack of interest and education on the teachings of the subject of Jesus and god.
Incidentally I am no church attender, however, my parents taught me about the workings of god at home and not only am I thankful for that education, but have been able to use that belief to help me and others that have been in total despair at times during my lifetime.
Unfortunately it seems to take wars or catastrophes to bring people really together in a brotherly fashion. Many an atheist has cried out to got at the last breath.
Mel- Posts : 1703
Join date : 2011-10-08
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Here's an example of why a God-based sense of morality cannot coexist with freedom. The end result will always be religious fascism. It also exemplifies how a large and vocal segment of American Christians love their God - through persecution of gays and lesbians, and scapegoating liberals. In fact, this particular person is now blaming the recent Colorado shootings on liberals attracting God's judgment. I guess, in their eyes, God sends gunmen to shoot 6 year-old girls. Who the hell would even WANT to worship such a disgusting creature?
Have a read:
Fred Jackson, the American Family Association’s news director, while discussing the Colorado movie theater shooting today said that liberal Christian churches and liberal media helped contribute to violent incidents by supposedly deemphasizing the fear of God and the Bible.
Jackson: In the community there were community standards that reflected biblical principles, whether people knew it or not, the standard in the community was based on Scripture. In that short period of time, roughly forty years, we have seen such a transformation in values in our communities, whether it’s rural or whether it’s big city. I have to think that all of this, whether it’s the Hollywood movies, whether it’s what we see on the internets [sic], whether it’s liberal bias in the media, whether it’s our politicians changing public policy, I think all of those somehow have fit together—and I have to say also churches who are leaving the authority of Scripture and losing their fear of God—all of those things have seem to have come together to give us these kinds of incidents.
Update: Later in the program, Jackson and co-host Teddy James of AFA Journal said the shooting is a sign of God’s judgment for the failings of the public education system and liberal, mainline Protestant churches that affirm gays and lesbians.
Do you see, now, Mel, what I was talking about when I said American Christianity is all about judging everyone else for their so-called sins? Just two days after I posted that, an example occurs that demonstrates beyond any reasonable doubt that my words are the unvarnished truth. I only had to wait two whole days before a headline prompted the same old Christian blame game. Right on cue.
What should be frightening though is how Fred Jackson is saying precisely what you're saying - that morality should come from the fear of and obedience to God. Perhaps you can understand why your views on morality will always be discordant with my own. In this country, those views are always accompanied by a fat finger pointing at people like me, like most people on this board, claiming, "It's YOUR fault this happened!"
And then there's this:
Veronica Moser, 6, died in the shooting rampage Friday morning, her great-aunt, Annie Dalton, told NBC News. Fifty-eight other people were injured in the shootings. Twenty-eight remained in area hospitals Saturday afternoon, seven of them in critical condition. James Eagan Holmes, 24, a graduate student at the University of Colorado-Denver, was arrested outside the theater, clad in black body armor and armed with three weapons.
So in order to enforce morality through violence, God sent a deranged gunman to kill 6 year-old Veronica ... and for what? How can we be expected to believe in a moral God if God commits such acts of flagrant immorality? Yet this is what we are supposed to believe... that this is the wrath of God made manifest for the sins of liberals and gays.
American Christianity has caused permanent damage to my soul, my psyche, my spirituality, and whatever faith I once had. It has killed any desire of mine for there to even be a God, much less to worship one.
I think our differing cultures will always cause us to be at loggerheads, Mel, when it comes to a religiously-inspired moral compass, and for that, I feel nothing but sadness. Yet that is something I cannot change.
Fred Jackson blames liberal churches and media for shootings
6 year-old girl confirmed to have been killed in Colorado theater shootings
And the final irony?
A neighbor, Tom Mai, told reporters on the block that Holmes [the Colorado theater shooter] was a shy, well-mannered kid, clean cut and responsible, who was very active in the church. The Associated Press reported that the family attended a Presbyterian church and threw a quiet Christmas party for neighbors. Holmes had trouble finding work after college, Mai said, and then went off to graduate school.
It would appear, then, that manners and church are no indicators of a person's goodness or evil.
Have a read:
Fred Jackson, the American Family Association’s news director, while discussing the Colorado movie theater shooting today said that liberal Christian churches and liberal media helped contribute to violent incidents by supposedly deemphasizing the fear of God and the Bible.
Jackson: In the community there were community standards that reflected biblical principles, whether people knew it or not, the standard in the community was based on Scripture. In that short period of time, roughly forty years, we have seen such a transformation in values in our communities, whether it’s rural or whether it’s big city. I have to think that all of this, whether it’s the Hollywood movies, whether it’s what we see on the internets [sic], whether it’s liberal bias in the media, whether it’s our politicians changing public policy, I think all of those somehow have fit together—and I have to say also churches who are leaving the authority of Scripture and losing their fear of God—all of those things have seem to have come together to give us these kinds of incidents.
Update: Later in the program, Jackson and co-host Teddy James of AFA Journal said the shooting is a sign of God’s judgment for the failings of the public education system and liberal, mainline Protestant churches that affirm gays and lesbians.
Do you see, now, Mel, what I was talking about when I said American Christianity is all about judging everyone else for their so-called sins? Just two days after I posted that, an example occurs that demonstrates beyond any reasonable doubt that my words are the unvarnished truth. I only had to wait two whole days before a headline prompted the same old Christian blame game. Right on cue.
What should be frightening though is how Fred Jackson is saying precisely what you're saying - that morality should come from the fear of and obedience to God. Perhaps you can understand why your views on morality will always be discordant with my own. In this country, those views are always accompanied by a fat finger pointing at people like me, like most people on this board, claiming, "It's YOUR fault this happened!"
And then there's this:
Veronica Moser, 6, died in the shooting rampage Friday morning, her great-aunt, Annie Dalton, told NBC News. Fifty-eight other people were injured in the shootings. Twenty-eight remained in area hospitals Saturday afternoon, seven of them in critical condition. James Eagan Holmes, 24, a graduate student at the University of Colorado-Denver, was arrested outside the theater, clad in black body armor and armed with three weapons.
So in order to enforce morality through violence, God sent a deranged gunman to kill 6 year-old Veronica ... and for what? How can we be expected to believe in a moral God if God commits such acts of flagrant immorality? Yet this is what we are supposed to believe... that this is the wrath of God made manifest for the sins of liberals and gays.
American Christianity has caused permanent damage to my soul, my psyche, my spirituality, and whatever faith I once had. It has killed any desire of mine for there to even be a God, much less to worship one.
I think our differing cultures will always cause us to be at loggerheads, Mel, when it comes to a religiously-inspired moral compass, and for that, I feel nothing but sadness. Yet that is something I cannot change.
Fred Jackson blames liberal churches and media for shootings
6 year-old girl confirmed to have been killed in Colorado theater shootings
And the final irony?
A neighbor, Tom Mai, told reporters on the block that Holmes [the Colorado theater shooter] was a shy, well-mannered kid, clean cut and responsible, who was very active in the church. The Associated Press reported that the family attended a Presbyterian church and threw a quiet Christmas party for neighbors. Holmes had trouble finding work after college, Mai said, and then went off to graduate school.
It would appear, then, that manners and church are no indicators of a person's goodness or evil.
Shirina- Former Administrator
- Posts : 2232
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : Right behind you. Boo!
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
"American Christianity has caused permanent damage to my soul, my psyche, my spirituality, and whatever faith I once had. It has killed any desire of mine for there to even be a God, much less to worship one."
Oh dear Shirina, how so very sad that you have come to feel this way.
You use the word "deranged" someone who is insane. Insanity can be brought on in many ways, good and evil people can and have become so.
This is not the work of god, nor is he responsible for what you have described.
--"So in order to enforce morality through violence, God sent a deranged gunman to kill 6 year-old Veronica ... and for what? How can we be expected to believe in a moral God if God commits such acts of flagrant immorality? Yet this is what we are supposed to believe... No, this is not the wrath god, for it is the work of evil, the devil if you like, which is all that god is against.
I can understand why you feel as you do, especially when you see things with people in America that I do not see here in the UK. The reason for that may be because we here in the UK are no where near advanced in most things as in America. I hope that bad part of American culture does not spread further to here, although no doubt it will as we follow in America's footsteps more and more as time passes.
Good to discuss with you Shirina.
[b]
Oh dear Shirina, how so very sad that you have come to feel this way.
You use the word "deranged" someone who is insane. Insanity can be brought on in many ways, good and evil people can and have become so.
This is not the work of god, nor is he responsible for what you have described.
--"So in order to enforce morality through violence, God sent a deranged gunman to kill 6 year-old Veronica ... and for what? How can we be expected to believe in a moral God if God commits such acts of flagrant immorality? Yet this is what we are supposed to believe... No, this is not the wrath god, for it is the work of evil, the devil if you like, which is all that god is against.
I can understand why you feel as you do, especially when you see things with people in America that I do not see here in the UK. The reason for that may be because we here in the UK are no where near advanced in most things as in America. I hope that bad part of American culture does not spread further to here, although no doubt it will as we follow in America's footsteps more and more as time passes.
Good to discuss with you Shirina.
[b]
Mel- Posts : 1703
Join date : 2011-10-08
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
This has taken an intresting turn.
I was watching an American film yesterday, and at the various funerals everyone turned up in their Sunday Best.
I passed a funeral procession last week, and honestly, I was better turned out when I took my German Shepherd to the vet to be put to sleep!! (poor Heidi)
Don'k know about morals, but, standards have certainly slipped!
Edit, it's Clyde in the avtar!
I was watching an American film yesterday, and at the various funerals everyone turned up in their Sunday Best.
I passed a funeral procession last week, and honestly, I was better turned out when I took my German Shepherd to the vet to be put to sleep!! (poor Heidi)
Don'k know about morals, but, standards have certainly slipped!
Edit, it's Clyde in the avtar!
astra- Deceased
- Posts : 1864
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : North East England.
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Well that was an intersesting turn astra.
So sorry you lost your friend. As you know I lost my big boy at Xmas last year and now have a GSD puppy. Hard work but worth it in the end eh?
Will you have another?
So sorry you lost your friend. As you know I lost my big boy at Xmas last year and now have a GSD puppy. Hard work but worth it in the end eh?
Will you have another?
Mel- Posts : 1703
Join date : 2011-10-08
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
A few extracts which might stimulate the discussion on this thread…….
From Sam Harris, ‘Letter To A Christian Nation’, pages 6-7:-
Consider: every devout Muslim has the same reasons for being a Muslim that you have for being a Christian….Why don’t you lose any sleep over whether to convert to Islam? Can you prove that Allah is not the one, true God? Can you prove that the archangel Gabriel did not visit Muhammad in his cave? Of course not. But you need not prove any of these things to reject the beliefs of Muslims as absurd. The burden is upon them to prove that their beliefs about God and Muhammad are valid. They have not done this. They cannot do this. Muslims are simply not making claims about reality that can be corroborated. This is perfectly apparent to anyone who has not anaesthetised himself with the dogma of Islam.
The truth is, you know exactly what it is like to be an atheist with respect to the beliefs of Muslims. Isn’t it obvious that Muslims are fooling themselves? Isn’t it obvious that anyone who thinks that the Koran is the perfect word of the creator of the universe has not read the book critically? Isn’t it obvious that the doctrine of Islam represents a near-perfect barrier to honest inquiry? Yes, these things are obvious. Understand that the way you view Islam is precisely the way devout Muslims view Christianity. And it is the way I view all religions.
From ‘The God Delusion’ by Richard Dawkins, pages 226-229:-
Is the only reason you try to be good is to gain God’s approval and reward, or to avoid his disapproval and punishment? That’s not morality, that’s just sucking up, apple-polishing, looking over your shoulder at the great surveillance camera in the sky, or the still small wiretap inside your head, monitoring your every move, even your every base thought. As Albert Einstein said: "If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed."
Michael Shermer, in ‘The Science of Good and Evil’, calls it a debate stopper. If you agree that, in the absence of God, you would "commit robbery, rape, and murder", you reveal yourself as an immoral person, "and we would be well advised to steer a wide course around you". If, on the other hand, you admit that you would continue to be a good person even when not under divine surveillance, you have fatally undermined your claim that God is necessary for us to be good. I suspect that quite a lot of religious people do think religion is what motivates them to be good, especially if they belong to one of those faiths that systematically exploits personal guilt.
Or did the cynic H. L. Mencken get it right when he tartly observed: "People say we need religion when what they really mean is we need police."
From Sam Harris, ‘The End Of Faith: Religion, Terror and the Future of Reason’:-
We have names for people who have many beliefs for which there is no rational justification. When their beliefs are extremely common we call them ‘religious’; otherwise, they are likely to be called ‘mad’, ‘psychotic’ or ‘delusional’…… Clearly there is sanity in numbers. And yet, it is merely an accident of history that it is considered normal in our society to believe that the Creator of the universe can hear your thoughts, while it is demonstrative of mental illness to believe the he is communicating with you by having the rain tap in Morse code on your bedroom window. And so, while religious people are not generally mad, their core beliefs absolutely are.
From Sam Harris, ‘Letter To A Christian Nation’, pages 6-7:-
Consider: every devout Muslim has the same reasons for being a Muslim that you have for being a Christian….Why don’t you lose any sleep over whether to convert to Islam? Can you prove that Allah is not the one, true God? Can you prove that the archangel Gabriel did not visit Muhammad in his cave? Of course not. But you need not prove any of these things to reject the beliefs of Muslims as absurd. The burden is upon them to prove that their beliefs about God and Muhammad are valid. They have not done this. They cannot do this. Muslims are simply not making claims about reality that can be corroborated. This is perfectly apparent to anyone who has not anaesthetised himself with the dogma of Islam.
The truth is, you know exactly what it is like to be an atheist with respect to the beliefs of Muslims. Isn’t it obvious that Muslims are fooling themselves? Isn’t it obvious that anyone who thinks that the Koran is the perfect word of the creator of the universe has not read the book critically? Isn’t it obvious that the doctrine of Islam represents a near-perfect barrier to honest inquiry? Yes, these things are obvious. Understand that the way you view Islam is precisely the way devout Muslims view Christianity. And it is the way I view all religions.
From ‘The God Delusion’ by Richard Dawkins, pages 226-229:-
Is the only reason you try to be good is to gain God’s approval and reward, or to avoid his disapproval and punishment? That’s not morality, that’s just sucking up, apple-polishing, looking over your shoulder at the great surveillance camera in the sky, or the still small wiretap inside your head, monitoring your every move, even your every base thought. As Albert Einstein said: "If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed."
Michael Shermer, in ‘The Science of Good and Evil’, calls it a debate stopper. If you agree that, in the absence of God, you would "commit robbery, rape, and murder", you reveal yourself as an immoral person, "and we would be well advised to steer a wide course around you". If, on the other hand, you admit that you would continue to be a good person even when not under divine surveillance, you have fatally undermined your claim that God is necessary for us to be good. I suspect that quite a lot of religious people do think religion is what motivates them to be good, especially if they belong to one of those faiths that systematically exploits personal guilt.
Or did the cynic H. L. Mencken get it right when he tartly observed: "People say we need religion when what they really mean is we need police."
From Sam Harris, ‘The End Of Faith: Religion, Terror and the Future of Reason’:-
We have names for people who have many beliefs for which there is no rational justification. When their beliefs are extremely common we call them ‘religious’; otherwise, they are likely to be called ‘mad’, ‘psychotic’ or ‘delusional’…… Clearly there is sanity in numbers. And yet, it is merely an accident of history that it is considered normal in our society to believe that the Creator of the universe can hear your thoughts, while it is demonstrative of mental illness to believe the he is communicating with you by having the rain tap in Morse code on your bedroom window. And so, while religious people are not generally mad, their core beliefs absolutely are.
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
RockOnBrother wrote:[, “Test all things”, in #1.
[/color]
Have you noticed that Genesis 1;1 makes no logical sense at all?
From such great beginnings it can only go to worse and you want to do one verse at a time.
Regards
DL
Greatest I am- Posts : 1087
Join date : 2012-04-25
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
polyglide wrote: There is one thing for certain, if God did not love and show compassion in many cases, the world as evil as is presently is, would be far worse for everyone concerned, it is only by those who believe and ask God to guide and help them that we have any kind of civilisation.
God can only help those who ask for his help.
Are you suggesting that the 10 million or so who die from starvation and other preventable causes are not asking God for his help?
Quite ignorant of you my friend.
Regards
DL
Greatest I am- Posts : 1087
Join date : 2012-04-25
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Shirina wrote:And for most, that's where it stays.Charity begins at home.
I tend not to agree with this. FMPOV there are more that give than those that do not.
Sure, only a few cents on the dollar gets to where you want it to go but some still gets there.
Regards
DL
Greatest I am- Posts : 1087
Join date : 2012-04-25
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
polyglide wrote:It is the lack of faith that causes all the problems not faith itself.
So belief in fantasy, miracles, magic and the un-provable are the answer to hard human questions.
Not.
Regards
DL
Greatest I am- Posts : 1087
Join date : 2012-04-25
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
[quote="oftenwrong"]
Yes. A slap is assault, yet I can demand with impunity to have a piece of my child's penis cut off with no good reason.
Regards
DL
Shirina wrote:.... God didn't have anything to do with this. Children feared being whipped half to death with a tree branch more so than they feared God.
Interestingly, MSN are currently running a Poll in Britain asking whether there should be a Law preventing parents from chastising children. More than 80% reject the idea of a legal prohibition. (Though European Law already forbids it).
Yes. A slap is assault, yet I can demand with impunity to have a piece of my child's penis cut off with no good reason.
Regards
DL
Greatest I am- Posts : 1087
Join date : 2012-04-25
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Mel wrote:"In order for the majority of a society to be moral, that morality has to be universal. In some cases it is universal - there are no societies or civilizations that allow unrestricted murder or theft, for instance. The trouble with religion and a belief in God setting the morality of a society - at least a free society - is that not everyone is going to subscribe to the same religion nor will everyone believe in a god."
Morality never has been ahered to by the few in past times Shirina. Now unfortunately that has reversed, for it is the majority who shun morality and the few who adhere to it's principles. .
I do not agree. There have always been more moral people in the world than not.
http://blog.ted.com/2008/09/17/the_real_differ/
Regards
DL
Greatest I am- Posts : 1087
Join date : 2012-04-25
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
"ALWAYS" IN THE PAST BUT NOT NOW!!!!!!!
Mel- Posts : 1703
Join date : 2011-10-08
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Mel wrote: "ALWAYS" IN THE PAST BUT NOT NOW!!!!!!!
Hogwash.
Show the survey.
Before you do, consider that three of the markers for evil that I track are violent crime, slavery and poverty. All these are the best per capita that we have ever enjoyed.
Note what the future hold and enjoy what man has accomplished.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ezVk1ahRF78
Regards
DL
Greatest I am- Posts : 1087
Join date : 2012-04-25
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
The problem here is that you're probably looking at charitable giving. That's fine. But it's not enough. Charities are extremely biased - if you need a new kidney, you are FAR more likely to receive one if you're a cute 9 year-old girl with pig tails than you are if you're a 45 year old male construction worker. In addition, charities tend to diffuse the money. There are a lot of people who would rather donate to animal shelters than to help a human get medical treatment - or they can donate to a place that helps women get breast enlargements (yes, those charities do exist). Often, the money does not go to those who need it the most.I tend not to agree with this. FMPOV there are more that give than those that do not.
One conservative I know from another board threw an absolute fit when I accused her of being unsympathetic. Her refutation was that she volunteers at a homeless shelter, and she gave some people blankets. So why did I call her unsympathetic? Because she hates paying taxes to fund our welfare system. She seems to have no objection to paying taxes for bombs and missiles to kill, but resents paying taxes for free health care and food stamps that actually help. I told her, too, that it's people like her that will ensure every impoverished, disabled, and most of the elderly in the nation, will be waiting in line at that homeless shelter instead of living in an apartment ... because you don't like paying taxes to help the needy.
People don't mind giving as long as they decide how much and who to give it to. That may sound fair at first glance, but they fail to realize that it behooves everyone, rich and poor, to have a safety net for those who fall on hard times. Otherwise we revert to a third world African state with rich and powerful warlords living in a sea of poverty. A welfare state minimizes civil unrest, staves off revolution, lowers crime, and prevents our streets from filling up with starving beggars.
And that is the prevailing attitude in this country - people hate paying taxes to help their own countrymen, but don't mind throwing a quarter or a dime into a charity can at the checkout counter.
Then there's this utter nightmare:
Thanks to lax international tax rules the world’s super rich have siphoned at least $21 trillion -- more than 50 percent larger than the entire U.S. economy -- into secretive tax-free havens, according to a study by UK campaign group Tax Justice Network.
The report by James Henry, a former chief economist at international consultancy McKinsey & Co., shows how with the help of private banks the money has flowed into countries such as Switzerland and the Cayman Islands.
“We’re basically talking about a black hole in the world economy,” Henry told NBCNews.com.
I don't think these people are "giving." No taxes, no investment, no circulation. An ever increasing amount of money is being taken out of the economy and hoarded by the wealthy so that everyone eventually ends up needy.
(Apologies for having no link, the forum doesn't seem to like it because it's so long. I'll post the url at the bottom)
http://bottomline.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/07/23/12903523-a-money-black-hole-rich-hide-at-least-21-trillion-in-tax-havens-study-shows?lite&__utma=14933801.1297818873.1342412000.1343051633.1343116337.28&__utmb=14933801.1.10.1343116337&__utmc=14933801&__utmx=-&__utmz=14933801.1342412000.1.1.utmcsr=(direct)|utmccn=(direct)|utmcmd=(none)&__utmv=14933801.|8=Earned%20By=msnbc%7Ccover=1^12=Landing%20Content=Mixed=1^13=Landing%20Hostname=www.nbcnews.com=1^30=Visit%20Type%20to%20Content=Earned%20to%20Mixed=1&__utmk=149665078
Shirina- Former Administrator
- Posts : 2232
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : Right behind you. Boo!
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Shirina
I have no argument against you for this.
People who look at the small picture will always feel that they are not accomplishing what they want or getting the best return for their $$$$$$.
Only because they cannot see the direct effects of their $$$$.
Indirectly, we all live in a world economy and whatever of our donations enter this economy, the healthier it is. The healthier it is, the more are the poor helped.
That is why I can see how the whole world is doing great.
This link shows that we just need to keep doing what we are doing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ezVk1ahRF78
Regards
DL
I have no argument against you for this.
People who look at the small picture will always feel that they are not accomplishing what they want or getting the best return for their $$$$$$.
Only because they cannot see the direct effects of their $$$$.
Indirectly, we all live in a world economy and whatever of our donations enter this economy, the healthier it is. The healthier it is, the more are the poor helped.
That is why I can see how the whole world is doing great.
This link shows that we just need to keep doing what we are doing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ezVk1ahRF78
Regards
DL
Greatest I am- Posts : 1087
Join date : 2012-04-25
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Sherina and others of a like mind.
If God answered every prayer and did away with all the Devils work he would not be honouring his agreement, as I have stated previously, you are not taking the Devil seriously and that is the fatal mistake mankind is presently making.
The Devil is carrying out at the present time the extreems of evil in every aspect of our life for the exact purpose that you and others use to deny the existance of God, when in fact you should be considering that the Devil has only a very short time left to turn everyone against God and it is your like that is aiding and abetting him in that respect.
If everyone who had experienced a hard time in life felt as you do Sherina then the Devil would have won but that is not so, thousands of devout Christians have faced and experienced far harder times than you and are still convinced that there is always a reason and a cause for all the evil in the world and they appreciate that God has to give the Devil his chance however hearbreaking this may be to God.
You have my heartfelt sympathy.
If God answered every prayer and did away with all the Devils work he would not be honouring his agreement, as I have stated previously, you are not taking the Devil seriously and that is the fatal mistake mankind is presently making.
The Devil is carrying out at the present time the extreems of evil in every aspect of our life for the exact purpose that you and others use to deny the existance of God, when in fact you should be considering that the Devil has only a very short time left to turn everyone against God and it is your like that is aiding and abetting him in that respect.
If everyone who had experienced a hard time in life felt as you do Sherina then the Devil would have won but that is not so, thousands of devout Christians have faced and experienced far harder times than you and are still convinced that there is always a reason and a cause for all the evil in the world and they appreciate that God has to give the Devil his chance however hearbreaking this may be to God.
You have my heartfelt sympathy.
polyglide- Posts : 3118
Join date : 2012-02-13
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
thousands of devout Christians have faced and experienced far harder times than you and are still convinced that there is always a reason and a cause for all the evil in the world and they appreciate that God has to give the Devil his chance however hearbreaking this may be to God.
Not in this country.
Shirina- Former Administrator
- Posts : 2232
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : Right behind you. Boo!
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Poly is just a parrot who has been singing the same tune for 2,000 years.
They say that doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is a sign of insanity.
Regards
DL
They say that doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is a sign of insanity.
Regards
DL
Greatest I am- Posts : 1087
Join date : 2012-04-25
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Shirina wrote:thousands of devout Christians have faced and experienced far harder times than you and are still convinced that there is always a reason and a cause for all the evil in the world and they appreciate that God has to give the Devil his chance however hearbreaking this may be to God.
Not in this country.
And one has to wonder about all the non-Christians that were persecuted by Christians all of this time.
It goes on for women and Gays.
Regards
DL
Greatest I am- Posts : 1087
Join date : 2012-04-25
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
QUOTE: "one has to wonder about all the non-Christians that were persecuted by Christians all of this time."
Wonder no more. Research "Tribalism" in any manner of choice.
Wonder no more. Research "Tribalism" in any manner of choice.
oftenwrong- Sage
- Posts : 12062
Join date : 2011-10-08
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
A sign of insanity is not the same as being insane.
A true Christian never has, nor ever should, persecute or in any other manner judge others, including women or others of different beliefs whatever they may be, their role is to point out the truth as they see it based on the evidence at their disposal.
This may seem insane to others who in all probability are more inclined to insanity than anyone else.
A true Christian never has, nor ever should, persecute or in any other manner judge others, including women or others of different beliefs whatever they may be, their role is to point out the truth as they see it based on the evidence at their disposal.
This may seem insane to others who in all probability are more inclined to insanity than anyone else.
polyglide- Posts : 3118
Join date : 2012-02-13
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