Can God love? (Part 1)
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Can God love? (Part 1)
First topic message reminder :
Can God love?
We are told that the mythical bible God is love or the epitome of love.
Archetypal Jesus said that we would know his people by the love, deeds and actions they showed others.
Jesus gave us examples of the deeds and works. Feed the poor, love all our neighbours, do not sin and many others.
Love then, seems to Jesus, to be something that must be shown by deeds, actions and works to be alive and true love. Love, like faith, without works is dead. Both St. James and Jesus agree on this.
It follows then that if God is not doing something to show this love then the love for man expressed in scriptures is wrong and God cannot love.
You are in the image of God. When you love someone you show them that love by works and deeds. This is how the recipient of that love knows it is there and that allows for reciprocity. You will agree that without reciprocity, true love cannot exist between two individuals. We must do things for each other for true love to exist.
Imagine what those you love would think if you never did anything to express your love. Imagine what you would think of the love of others towards you if they never did anything to show they loved you. See what I mean. Love always must have deeds to be real and true and reciprocity must be at play.
Love then has no choice but to be expressed if it is true love.
We are told that God loved his son so much that he planned to have him sacrificed even before the earth was created. This human sacrifice or any other human sacrifice, voluntary or not, is immoral and the notion that it is good to sacrifice an innocent victim to give the guilty believers a free ride into heaven is a completely self-gratifying notion and is completely immoral. One does not show love for someone by having them sacrificed for the sins of others when God himself stated that we are all responsible for our own salvation and cannot put that responsibility of the shoulders of a scapegoat Jesus.
Does love need deeds and works to be expressed?
Have you seen God express his love for us lately?
Regards
DL
These following speak to this issue if you wish to view them.
[youtube]
Can God love?
We are told that the mythical bible God is love or the epitome of love.
Archetypal Jesus said that we would know his people by the love, deeds and actions they showed others.
Jesus gave us examples of the deeds and works. Feed the poor, love all our neighbours, do not sin and many others.
Love then, seems to Jesus, to be something that must be shown by deeds, actions and works to be alive and true love. Love, like faith, without works is dead. Both St. James and Jesus agree on this.
It follows then that if God is not doing something to show this love then the love for man expressed in scriptures is wrong and God cannot love.
You are in the image of God. When you love someone you show them that love by works and deeds. This is how the recipient of that love knows it is there and that allows for reciprocity. You will agree that without reciprocity, true love cannot exist between two individuals. We must do things for each other for true love to exist.
Imagine what those you love would think if you never did anything to express your love. Imagine what you would think of the love of others towards you if they never did anything to show they loved you. See what I mean. Love always must have deeds to be real and true and reciprocity must be at play.
Love then has no choice but to be expressed if it is true love.
We are told that God loved his son so much that he planned to have him sacrificed even before the earth was created. This human sacrifice or any other human sacrifice, voluntary or not, is immoral and the notion that it is good to sacrifice an innocent victim to give the guilty believers a free ride into heaven is a completely self-gratifying notion and is completely immoral. One does not show love for someone by having them sacrificed for the sins of others when God himself stated that we are all responsible for our own salvation and cannot put that responsibility of the shoulders of a scapegoat Jesus.
Does love need deeds and works to be expressed?
Have you seen God express his love for us lately?
Regards
DL
These following speak to this issue if you wish to view them.
[youtube]
Greatest I am- Posts : 1087
Join date : 2012-04-25
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
A sign of insanity is not the same as being insane.
A true Christian never has, nor ever should, persecute or in any other manner judge others, including women or others of different beliefs whatever they may be, their role is to point out the truth as they see it based on the evidence at their disposal.
This may seem insane to others who in all probability are more inclined to insanity than anyone else.
A true Christian never has, nor ever should, persecute or in any other manner judge others, including women or others of different beliefs whatever they may be, their role is to point out the truth as they see it based on the evidence at their disposal.
This may seem insane to others who in all probability are more inclined to insanity than anyone else.
polyglide- Posts : 3118
Join date : 2012-02-13
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Or, to put it another way, "It takes one to know one".
oftenwrong- Sage
- Posts : 12062
Join date : 2011-10-08
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
polyglide wrote:A sign of insanity is not the same as being insane.
A true Christian never has, nor ever should, persecute or in any other manner judge others, including women or others of different beliefs whatever they may be, their role is to point out the truth as they see it based on the evidence at their disposal.
This may seem insane to others who in all probability are more inclined to insanity than anyone else.
I see you do not keep up with much of anything.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNSe4Ff57n4&feature=player_embedded
Regards
DL
Greatest I am- Posts : 1087
Join date : 2012-04-25
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Shirina wrote:Not in this country.
thousands of devout Christians have faced and experienced far harder times than you…
In this country, during my lifetime, an innocent young Black man was arrested for RWB.
In this country, during my lifetime, an innocent young Black man was jailed for DWB.
In this country, during my lifetime, an innocent young Black man was taken by force from his home during the night, bound, hung from a tree, noose around his neck, soaked in kerosene, and set afire for LWB.
The burnt, still smoldering body of the young man who was set on fire was smelled and seen by his younger cousin, his “sister”, the following morning. All three innocent young Black men are/were Christians. The burnt young man’s cousin/sister, father (who was severely beaten trying to save his son), mother, other siblings, uncle, aunt, and other cousins/siblings are/were all Christians.
I speak of things known to me by first person testimony
Last edited by RockOnBrother on Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
Guest- Guest
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Can God love?
Having considered all the posts one thing is very clear.
Many appear to believe that God would not let matters get to the stage where they are at the present time with all the distress and dispicable events that occur on a daily basis, some actually blame God for them.
Well lets take a reality check and consider the following:--
A loving parent raises two children giving all the love possible to both, along with warnings regarding the pitfalls of life and the consequences of becoming a victim of them.
In particular, say, that if one touches the fire they will get burnt.
One takes no notice and gets burnt, as a cosequence both the child involved and the parent involved will suffer, it is also a probability that the parent will suffer more than the child.
Now can anyone say that the parent does not love? or that considering God under the circumstances of creation that he does not love and is not suffering as the parent?.
Having considered all the posts one thing is very clear.
Many appear to believe that God would not let matters get to the stage where they are at the present time with all the distress and dispicable events that occur on a daily basis, some actually blame God for them.
Well lets take a reality check and consider the following:--
A loving parent raises two children giving all the love possible to both, along with warnings regarding the pitfalls of life and the consequences of becoming a victim of them.
In particular, say, that if one touches the fire they will get burnt.
One takes no notice and gets burnt, as a cosequence both the child involved and the parent involved will suffer, it is also a probability that the parent will suffer more than the child.
Now can anyone say that the parent does not love? or that considering God under the circumstances of creation that he does not love and is not suffering as the parent?.
polyglide- Posts : 3118
Join date : 2012-02-13
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
There's a major flaw in your premise, and your own words reveal it.Well lets take a reality check and consider the following:--
You, yourself, have said on many occasions that we should "look at the state of the world" and that "prophesies" have foretold that all of this would come to pass.
Well ... if all of this evil, if all of these bad things, were MEANT to happen, then we, as humans, never had a choice. As I've said several times in long ago discussions, the concept of free will is an illusion. IF these Bible prophesies are coming true, then the only real choices we ever had as mortals is what clothes to put on in the morning, what to have for breakfast, what career to pursue. But in terms of the really BIG choices, especially collective choices such as what kind of society we want to be or how we are going to treat our planet, well ... all of that was preordained by Biblical prophesy.
It's akin to being on a train. While traveling by train, we might have the choice to read a particular book, what to have for dinner in the dining car, when to sleep, or to engage in chit-chat with our seat-mates. But no matter what choices we make while on the train, the train itself is heading toward a specific destination, and it WILL follow those rails on a specific course. We cannot make the train change direction or destination no matter what little choices we make while riding it.
As such, humanity is not really in control of the train. God laid the tracks, decided the destination, and is driving us where ever he decides we're supposed to go with the Bible being the schedule. After all, the prophesies, not our choices, are really what drives humanity forward to our inexorable doom, is it not?
Thus the child who touches the flame never really had a choice not to touch it. The prophesies preordained the touching of that flame, so is it right to make the child suffer consequences for a choice he never had to begin with? Perhaps God could have made the flame a little less hot.
Shirina- Former Administrator
- Posts : 2232
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : Right behind you. Boo!
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
How many people resent being "pigeonholed" as an atheist, agnostic or even apostate?
How many more quite like having a niche to occupy - as nihilist, anarchist or free-thinker? Me, I'm right 'ard, innI?
Where do you feel comfortable, assigned a role or still blazing the Independence trail? You li'l rebel you.
How many more quite like having a niche to occupy - as nihilist, anarchist or free-thinker? Me, I'm right 'ard, innI?
Where do you feel comfortable, assigned a role or still blazing the Independence trail? You li'l rebel you.
oftenwrong- Sage
- Posts : 12062
Join date : 2011-10-08
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
I have no intention of getting involved in prophecy except to say that most Biblical prophecy is not what would inevitably happen, but what would happen if individuals/people/nations didn't listen to the warnings, and return to 'the fold'.
So, in the main, the prophecies are not what drive us to our doom, it is our choices - listen or not.
Whatever you think of the story of Jonah - fact or parable - the example is there. Nineveh was wicked. It was going down. Jonah gave them God's alternative. They repented and were saved.
Many years later they returned to their 'wild' ways and a second prophecy was ignored. Nineveh was overthrown, in precisely the way the prophecy described.
Interesting discussion.
Whoosh. Gone.
So, in the main, the prophecies are not what drive us to our doom, it is our choices - listen or not.
Whatever you think of the story of Jonah - fact or parable - the example is there. Nineveh was wicked. It was going down. Jonah gave them God's alternative. They repented and were saved.
Many years later they returned to their 'wild' ways and a second prophecy was ignored. Nineveh was overthrown, in precisely the way the prophecy described.
Interesting discussion.
Whoosh. Gone.
trevorw2539- Posts : 1374
Join date : 2011-11-03
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Sherina, you do not read with any understanding.
I never said that God said all the bad things would happen, what I said was God said all the bad things would happen if man did the wrong things and took all the wrong paths and man had a choice wether to or not.
If someone told you that to jump off a 1,000 ft cliff with rocks at the bottom you would get hurt, that would depend entirely on you wether you jumped or not and nothing to do with the one who told you the possible consequences.
I never said that God said all the bad things would happen, what I said was God said all the bad things would happen if man did the wrong things and took all the wrong paths and man had a choice wether to or not.
If someone told you that to jump off a 1,000 ft cliff with rocks at the bottom you would get hurt, that would depend entirely on you wether you jumped or not and nothing to do with the one who told you the possible consequences.
polyglide- Posts : 3118
Join date : 2012-02-13
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Science explains the existence of God.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNSe4Ff57n4&feature=player_embedded
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haBLjVqrrjM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDbesQQi9yc
Without a personal apotheosis, all who claim that God is real without any personal knowledge --- without a clear logic trail --- are just lying to themselves as well as others.
All who claim a God are also idol worshipping. They have just pasted their bible pages onto a golden calf. They think they have hidden the calf’s shape but it is still discernible under the manmade WORD of God. To have a Godinabook is to idol worship.
Most that follow a religion do not really follow it. They only follow tradition and cultures based on old tribal ways.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iV2VjdpVonY
Are you an idol worshipper or do you fall under the first link’s definition?
If not, give the logic trail to your God.
Regards
DL
P. S. Most will see this O P as an attack on those who believe. If you do, then you should know that I am not an atheist but call myself a Gnostic Christian and do believe in a Godhead. It is just not supernatural and is not immoral the way the bible God is portrayed to be.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNSe4Ff57n4&feature=player_embedded
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haBLjVqrrjM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDbesQQi9yc
Without a personal apotheosis, all who claim that God is real without any personal knowledge --- without a clear logic trail --- are just lying to themselves as well as others.
All who claim a God are also idol worshipping. They have just pasted their bible pages onto a golden calf. They think they have hidden the calf’s shape but it is still discernible under the manmade WORD of God. To have a Godinabook is to idol worship.
Most that follow a religion do not really follow it. They only follow tradition and cultures based on old tribal ways.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iV2VjdpVonY
Are you an idol worshipper or do you fall under the first link’s definition?
If not, give the logic trail to your God.
Regards
DL
P. S. Most will see this O P as an attack on those who believe. If you do, then you should know that I am not an atheist but call myself a Gnostic Christian and do believe in a Godhead. It is just not supernatural and is not immoral the way the bible God is portrayed to be.
Greatest I am- Posts : 1087
Join date : 2012-04-25
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Regards the above websites.
One video is not available.
The mental health video. There is no direct evidence for religion having a bad effect on mental health in general. In fact many practitioners are coming round to the opinion that religion is an aid to mental health recovery in many cases.
Quote
Most children grow up mentally healthy, but surveys suggest that more children and young people have problems with their mental health today than 30 years ago. hat more That’s probably because of changes in the way we live now and how that affects the experience of growing up.
http://www.mentalhealth.org.uk/help-information/mental-health-a-z/C/children-young-people/
In any case, if you think that there is, then mental health should improve drastically over the next few years as hell (eternal torment) is a subject which is becoming less taught or believed in.
The video on religion and dinosaurs. Most religions have one core belief. In a creator God, or of cosmic consciousness. They just have various views of the way to an end. All scientists believe in the death of the dinosaurs, but they just have various beliefs how it came about. So the 2 run parallel.
woosh. Gone
One video is not available.
The mental health video. There is no direct evidence for religion having a bad effect on mental health in general. In fact many practitioners are coming round to the opinion that religion is an aid to mental health recovery in many cases.
Quote
Most children grow up mentally healthy, but surveys suggest that more children and young people have problems with their mental health today than 30 years ago. hat more That’s probably because of changes in the way we live now and how that affects the experience of growing up.
http://www.mentalhealth.org.uk/help-information/mental-health-a-z/C/children-young-people/
In any case, if you think that there is, then mental health should improve drastically over the next few years as hell (eternal torment) is a subject which is becoming less taught or believed in.
The video on religion and dinosaurs. Most religions have one core belief. In a creator God, or of cosmic consciousness. They just have various views of the way to an end. All scientists believe in the death of the dinosaurs, but they just have various beliefs how it came about. So the 2 run parallel.
woosh. Gone
trevorw2539- Posts : 1374
Join date : 2011-11-03
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
trevorw2539 wrote:Regards the above websites.
One video is not available.
The mental health video. There is no direct evidence for religion having a bad effect on mental health in general. In fact many practitioners are coming round to the opinion that religion is an aid to mental health recovery in many cases.
Quote
Most children grow up mentally healthy, but surveys suggest that more children and young people have problems with their mental health today than 30 years ago. hat more That’s probably because of changes in the way we live now and how that affects the experience of growing up.
http://www.mentalhealth.org.uk/help-information/mental-health-a-z/C/children-young-people/
In any case, if you think that there is, then mental health should improve drastically over the next few years as hell (eternal torment) is a subject which is becoming less taught or believed in.
The video on religion and dinosaurs. Most religions have one core belief. In a creator God, or of cosmic consciousness. They just have various views of the way to an end. All scientists believe in the death of the dinosaurs, but they just have various beliefs how it came about. So the 2 run parallel.
woosh. Gone
One of the problems with mental health issues is that the diagnosis methods hence recognition, these days are more effective. However the effectiveness of the treatments on offer hasn't caught up with the diagnosis process. Talking therapies such as psychoanalytical techniques are highly effective, however they are expensive, so people end up being drugged up, excuse my cynicism. It may come as a surprise, but up to 40% of all of us have had issues with mental health. I'm a psychologist by profession, but even I have had some issues connected with anxiety and obsessive compulsive behaviour, however I'm trained to recognise the signs of these, so know how to control them to a great extent.
I'm also a practising Christian, a Methodist and yes having a belief structure does bring benefits in that the altruism that religion brings does have a positive effect.
LWS- Posts : 67
Join date : 2012-01-06
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
trevorw2539 wrote:Regards the above websites.
One video is not available.
The mental health video. There is no direct evidence for religion having a bad effect on mental health in general. In fact many practitioners are coming round to the opinion that religion is an aid to mental health recovery in many cases.
Quote
Most children grow up mentally healthy, but surveys suggest that more children and young people have problems with their mental health today than 30 years ago. hat more That’s probably because of changes in the way we live now and how that affects the experience of growing up.
http://www.mentalhealth.org.uk/help-information/mental-health-a-z/C/children-young-people/
In any case, if you think that there is, then mental health should improve drastically over the next few years as hell (eternal torment) is a subject which is becoming less taught or believed in.
The video on religion and dinosaurs. Most religions have one core belief. In a creator God, or of cosmic consciousness. They just have various views of the way to an end. All scientists believe in the death of the dinosaurs, but they just have various beliefs how it came about. So the 2 run parallel.
woosh. Gone
Thanks for this. I just tried the links and they all work for me. Must be our locations.
Evidence actually shows a benefit to health for beliers.
Ignorance is bliss and the blissful are quite happy in their ignorance I guess.
That or shutting down logic and reason is good for us.
I don't know as I do not have faith even as I do have a belief.
Regards
DL
Greatest I am- Posts : 1087
Join date : 2012-04-25
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
There's a difference between a "prophesy" and a "prediction." A prophesy is something that is preordained to happen whereas a prediction may or may not happen.I never said that God said all the bad things would happen, what I said was God said all the bad things would happen if man did the wrong things and took all the wrong paths and man had a choice wether to or not.
Now, the issue here is that, according to some beliefs, the return of Jesus will be heralded by certain signs - or prophesies - and none of them are good ones. I think one of them is the fall of Israel and another is the rebuilding of the Temple of Soloman. That would require Christians (or Jews) to reacquire the land where the Muslim's Temple on the Mount now stands. That would most assuredly require warfare. Then there are all the disasters, plagues, and whatnot.
This lands Christians in a rather paradoxical position. The better our decisions, the further away Jesus's return becomes. The Bible even warns us against powerful leaders that wish to bring us peace and prosperity - don't trust 'em! They're false prophets! Thus Christians must be suspicious of, or outright reject, those who seek peace. Any one of them could be the dreaded Anti-Christ.
The bottom line, then, is that the worse our society becomes, the closer is the Rapture. Therefore, Christians should WANT humans to screw up both our society and the planet. Jesus can't return until we've made so many bad decisions that all of the horrible prophesies come true. And if they don't, Jesus will never arrive.
BUT ... since Christians believe that Jesus WILL return sooner or later, that means that all of the prophesies heralding the Rapture MUST come true. Ergo, no matter what decisions we make, the prophesies will come true and Jesus will return.
If one of the signs of Jesus's imminent arrival was Shirina jumping of a 1,000 foot cliff with rocks at the bottom, then somehow, some way, I would have to jump off that cliff so that Jesus may return.If someone told you that to jump off a 1,000 ft cliff with rocks at the bottom you would get hurt, that would depend entirely on you wether you jumped or not and nothing to do with the one who told you the possible consequences.
Shirina- Former Administrator
- Posts : 2232
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : Right behind you. Boo!
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Greetings, LWS, and welcome to our humble abode!
I have no idea of your nationality, but I'm an American ... and in THIS country, religion has done nothing to promote altruism. America is the most religious of any advanced, industrialized nation. Some studies have shown that our religiosity is akin to a Third World nation. Our leaders must also be Christian or they will never be elected. Yet even now the Republican vice-president nominee Paul Ryan wishes to strip funding away from welfare programs (which will leave 60 million Americans with no access to affordable health care) so he can give the rich a 10% tax break and increase military spending. This man professes to be a Christian.
There's even a particularly nasty email floating around about what one person would do if he controlled the welfare system. Essentially anyone who went on government assistance would have all of their worldly possessions stripped from them. They could only buy items like rice, bread, and cheese. They would be thrown into a military-style work camp complete with daily inspections, strict discipline, and menial work. Finally, they would have their right to vote taken from them. Of course, there's no mention of how you throw a corporation into a work camp if it receives taxpayer money, and many of them do.
But the point here is that many Christians look at the poor with seething hatred because keeping them from falling into Third World poverty costs them a little money - $400 per year, in fact. They'll make a big show of giving a homeless man a blanket or volunteering at a soup kitchen. Yet their charity is hypocritical, for many of those people wouldn't even need a blanket or a meal if our welfare system were propped up. The policies and votes of many Christians have absolutely nothing to do with altruism ... in fact, it is just the opposite.
In the early 20th Century, Christians were generally very liberal and progressive ... it was the Christians who were liberals and Democrats campaigning for a solid welfare system and a more socialist style health system. But somehow, in some way, Christianity became twisted by greed over the intervening years. Now, ironically, it is the Atheists and Agnostics who are far more likely to champion the rights of the poor, unemployed, and the disenfranchised.
America's rather sick version of religion does not promote altruism ... it promotes hyper-individualism, selfishness, and greed. It just goes to show you that religion isn't enough for, nor is it the cause of, altruism. To be truly selfless, well, that comes from the person and how they were raised - and also what kind of propaganda they've been exposed to.
Take care.
I'm also a practising Christian, a Methodist and yes having a belief structure does bring benefits in that the altruism that religion brings does have a positive effect.
I have no idea of your nationality, but I'm an American ... and in THIS country, religion has done nothing to promote altruism. America is the most religious of any advanced, industrialized nation. Some studies have shown that our religiosity is akin to a Third World nation. Our leaders must also be Christian or they will never be elected. Yet even now the Republican vice-president nominee Paul Ryan wishes to strip funding away from welfare programs (which will leave 60 million Americans with no access to affordable health care) so he can give the rich a 10% tax break and increase military spending. This man professes to be a Christian.
There's even a particularly nasty email floating around about what one person would do if he controlled the welfare system. Essentially anyone who went on government assistance would have all of their worldly possessions stripped from them. They could only buy items like rice, bread, and cheese. They would be thrown into a military-style work camp complete with daily inspections, strict discipline, and menial work. Finally, they would have their right to vote taken from them. Of course, there's no mention of how you throw a corporation into a work camp if it receives taxpayer money, and many of them do.
But the point here is that many Christians look at the poor with seething hatred because keeping them from falling into Third World poverty costs them a little money - $400 per year, in fact. They'll make a big show of giving a homeless man a blanket or volunteering at a soup kitchen. Yet their charity is hypocritical, for many of those people wouldn't even need a blanket or a meal if our welfare system were propped up. The policies and votes of many Christians have absolutely nothing to do with altruism ... in fact, it is just the opposite.
In the early 20th Century, Christians were generally very liberal and progressive ... it was the Christians who were liberals and Democrats campaigning for a solid welfare system and a more socialist style health system. But somehow, in some way, Christianity became twisted by greed over the intervening years. Now, ironically, it is the Atheists and Agnostics who are far more likely to champion the rights of the poor, unemployed, and the disenfranchised.
America's rather sick version of religion does not promote altruism ... it promotes hyper-individualism, selfishness, and greed. It just goes to show you that religion isn't enough for, nor is it the cause of, altruism. To be truly selfless, well, that comes from the person and how they were raised - and also what kind of propaganda they've been exposed to.
Take care.
Shirina- Former Administrator
- Posts : 2232
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : Right behind you. Boo!
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Shirina wrote:Greetings, LWS, and welcome to our humble abode!I'm also a practising Christian, a Methodist and yes having a belief structure does bring benefits in that the altruism that religion brings does have a positive effect.
I have no idea of your nationality, but I'm an American ... and in THIS country, religion has done nothing to promote altruism. America is the most religious of any advanced, industrialized nation. Some studies have shown that our religiosity is akin to a Third World nation. Our leaders must also be Christian or they will never be elected. Yet even now the Republican vice-president nominee Paul Ryan wishes to strip funding away from welfare programs (which will leave 60 million Americans with no access to affordable health care) so he can give the rich a 10% tax break and increase military spending. This man professes to be a Christian.
There's even a particularly nasty email floating around about what one person would do if he controlled the welfare system. Essentially anyone who went on government assistance would have all of their worldly possessions stripped from them. They could only buy items like rice, bread, and cheese. They would be thrown into a military-style work camp complete with daily inspections, strict discipline, and menial work. Finally, they would have their right to vote taken from them. Of course, there's no mention of how you throw a corporation into a work camp if it receives taxpayer money, and many of them do.
But the point here is that many Christians look at the poor with seething hatred because keeping them from falling into Third World poverty costs them a little money - $400 per year, in fact. They'll make a big show of giving a homeless man a blanket or volunteering at a soup kitchen. Yet their charity is hypocritical, for many of those people wouldn't even need a blanket or a meal if our welfare system were propped up. The policies and votes of many Christians have absolutely nothing to do with altruism ... in fact, it is just the opposite.
In the early 20th Century, Christians were generally very liberal and progressive ... it was the Christians who were liberals and Democrats campaigning for a solid welfare system and a more socialist style health system. But somehow, in some way, Christianity became twisted by greed over the intervening years. Now, ironically, it is the Atheists and Agnostics who are far more likely to champion the rights of the poor, unemployed, and the disenfranchised.
America's rather sick version of religion does not promote altruism ... it promotes hyper-individualism, selfishness, and greed. It just goes to show you that religion isn't enough for, nor is it the cause of, altruism. To be truly selfless, well, that comes from the person and how they were raised - and also what kind of propaganda they've been exposed to.
Take care.
Thank you for your reply to my posting, Shirina. Yours is a very good response and quite thought provoking. I think like the muslim extremists who have quite literally hijacked Islam to promote their sick cause, to take vengence on the West, those you describe so aptly are the Christian equivalent.
I'm not a religious zealot, just a person who practises Christianity in the way it was intended, by focussing on the good aspects that it brings. So in my case it does promote altruism and not selfishness or greed.
Regards,
LWS
LWS- Posts : 67
Join date : 2012-01-06
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
I think like the muslim extremists who have quite literally hijacked Islam to promote their sick cause, to take vengence on the West, those you describe so aptly are the Christian equivalent.
You're absolutely right ... I have been calling them the Christian Taliban for quite some time. I was just talking to a local judge who claims that the only way to beat the Muslims was to become a solid Christian nation, a sort of "fight fire with fire" ideology.
To which I responded - If you become just like your enemy, what's the point of fighting them? His reply resembled this in great detail --> and then it was . Meanwhile, as he puzzled it all out, I .
I have an uncle who is a Methodist chaplain in the US Army, so I am a bit familiar with the Methodist ideology. Fortunately, they are not given to evangelism, which I find to be the scourge of freedom and democracy in this country. There are many good things to be found in religion, many noble ideals to aspire to. Unfortunately, so few here seem to bother with the love and rainbows half of Christianity. They like the persecute, judge, and discriminate half.I'm not a religious zealot, just a person who practises Christianity in the way it was intended, by focussing on the good aspects that it brings. So in my case it does promote altruism and not selfishness or greed.
Shirina- Former Administrator
- Posts : 2232
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : Right behind you. Boo!
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
I am not sure if God can love, one thing for certain is he didn't love the dinosaurs, don't know why he created them in the first place, seems a pointless exercise.
Tosh- Posts : 2270
Join date : 2012-08-15
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Tosh wrote:I am not sure if God can love, one thing for certain is he didn't love the dinosaurs, don't know why he created them in the first place, seems a pointless exercise.
Not at all.
It is a make work project for paleontologists and a test of faith for literalists and fundamental fools.
Regards
DL
Greatest I am- Posts : 1087
Join date : 2012-04-25
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Young Earth Creationists think The Flintstones is a documentary, now there is a worrying thought.
Tosh- Posts : 2270
Join date : 2012-08-15
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Tosh wrote:Young Earth Creationists think The Flintstones is a documentary, now there is a worrying thought.
Yes.
They think the giant Nephelim ate them all.
After all, they were just big chickens
Regards
DL
Greatest I am- Posts : 1087
Join date : 2012-04-25
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Greatest I am wrote:
They1 think the giant Nephelim2 ate them3 all.
After all, they1 were just big chickens4
- Who are “they?”
- Have you been reading Joseph Smith fantasy novels lately?
- Who are “them?”
- Nah. Space chickens are the big chickens. They don’t bother much with y’all over there. Too busy landing spaceships in Tex-is and Sous’ Ca-line-uh sending out SCREUS (Space Chicken Round ‘Em Up Squadrons) to capture folks after they let out Sunday services and eat ‘em for Sunday dinner. “Y’all git enough? They’s plenty moah. Y’all hep yuh-sevs.” “Pass me ‘nuthuh drumstick, if yuh please.”
Guest- Guest
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Shirina, open your eyes.
Israel is on the brink of taking action against Iran, this will cause the Middle East to become more unstable than it already is, there are earthquakes in diverse places on a more regular basis than ever before, pestulance abounds, starvation threatens the vast majority of the world. brother fights brother and the world it's self is being destroyed.
You cannot blame God for the stupidity of mankind nor for the actions of the Devil
It was not a prediction regarding the latter days but a warning what the signs would be should man not take note of right from wrong.
Israel is on the brink of taking action against Iran, this will cause the Middle East to become more unstable than it already is, there are earthquakes in diverse places on a more regular basis than ever before, pestulance abounds, starvation threatens the vast majority of the world. brother fights brother and the world it's self is being destroyed.
You cannot blame God for the stupidity of mankind nor for the actions of the Devil
It was not a prediction regarding the latter days but a warning what the signs would be should man not take note of right from wrong.
polyglide- Posts : 3118
Join date : 2012-02-13
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
polyglide wrote:Shirina, open your eyes.
Israel is on the brink of taking action against Iran, this will cause the Middle East to become more unstable than it already is, there are earthquakes in diverse places on a more regular basis than ever before, pestulance abounds, starvation threatens the vast majority of the world. brother fights brother and the world it's self is being destroyed.
You cannot blame God for the stupidity of mankind nor for the actions of the Devil
Did God not put Satan here and did he not give him dominion over us with the power to deceive the whole world that God gave him?
How then is it not God's due to take the blame.
He said that hell was created for him yet put him in control of the earth.
Justice delayed is justice denied.
If you put a fox in the hen house, is it the fox's fault if a hen disappears or is it your fault that the fox acted naturally?
Regards
DL
Greatest I am- Posts : 1087
Join date : 2012-04-25
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Greatest I am wrote:
Did God not put Satan here and did he not give him dominion over us with the power to deceive the whole world that God gave him?
No.
Greatest I am wrote:
How then is it not God's due to take the blame.
Why should he?
Greatest I am wrote:
He said that hell was created for him yet put him in control of the earth.
Qujote him (book and chapter reposted here).
Greatest I am wrote:
Justice delayed is justice denied.
You know nothing of justice.
Greatest I am wrote:
If you put a fox in the hen house, is it the fox's fault if a hen disappears or is it your fault that the fox acted naturally?
I did not put a fox in the hen house.
Guest- Guest
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
How are we supposed to recognise good, if evil does not exist?
Lessons are there to be learned not ignored or distorted into blame for evil doings. We (humans) have been slow in learning I'm sorry to say and will suffer accordingly for that.
Lessons are there to be learned not ignored or distorted into blame for evil doings. We (humans) have been slow in learning I'm sorry to say and will suffer accordingly for that.
Mel- Posts : 1703
Join date : 2011-10-08
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Slow in learning indeed. The main purpose of a good education is not necessarily to teach "things which may be useful to know" but to instruct in the ways of problem-solving. Graduates will instinctively look for the bottleneck in a process and deal first of all with just that, while others are looking for the answer to everything.
An example of that was the Consultant called in to try and reduce the sheer cost of producing a new miracle drug. He discovered that the pharmaceutical manufacturer had copied Researchers' notes word-for-word so as to reproduce laboratory conditions as closely as possible. Including the routine sterilisation of equipment at every stage of development.
The solution was to sterilise just ONCE - right at the end of the manufacturing process, saving a lot of time and money.
An example of that was the Consultant called in to try and reduce the sheer cost of producing a new miracle drug. He discovered that the pharmaceutical manufacturer had copied Researchers' notes word-for-word so as to reproduce laboratory conditions as closely as possible. Including the routine sterilisation of equipment at every stage of development.
The solution was to sterilise just ONCE - right at the end of the manufacturing process, saving a lot of time and money.
oftenwrong- Sage
- Posts : 12062
Join date : 2011-10-08
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Mel wrote:
How are we supposed to recognise good, if evil does not exist?
Lessons are there to be learned not ignored or distorted into blame for evil doings. We (humans) have been slow in learning I'm sorry to say and will suffer accordingly for that.
Mel,
Consider these words penned by another:
“Your pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding.
Even as the stone of the fruit must break, that its heart may stand in the sun, so must you know pain.
And could you keep your heart in wonder at the daily miracles of your life, your pain would not seem less wondrous than your joy;
And you would accept the seasons of your heart, even as you have always accepted the seasons that pass over your fields.
And you would watch with serenity through the winters of your grief.
Much of your pain is self-chosen.
It is the bitter potion by which the physician within you heals your sick self.
Therefore trust the physician, and drink his remedy in silence and tranquillity:
For his hand, though heavy and hard, is guided by the tender hand of the Unseen,
And the cup he brings, though it burn your lips, has been fashioned of the clay which the Potter has moistened with His own sacred tears.”
Khalil Gibran, The Prophet, 1923
Last edited by RockOnBrother on Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
Guest- Guest
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
A lesson already learned but enhanced by the above reading.
Mel- Posts : 1703
Join date : 2011-10-08
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Mel wrote:How are we supposed to recognise good, if evil does not exist?
Lessons are there to be learned not ignored or distorted into blame for evil doings. We (humans) have been slow in learning I'm sorry to say and will suffer accordingly for that.
We learned rather quickly to ignore God's draconian unjust laws and replace them with sane ones so I think we are doing just fine.
Regards
DL
Greatest I am- Posts : 1087
Join date : 2012-04-25
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
R O B
If you ever learn how to communicate, we will.
Regards
DL
If you ever learn how to communicate, we will.
Regards
DL
Greatest I am- Posts : 1087
Join date : 2012-04-25
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
"We learned rather quickly to ignore God's draconian unjust laws and replace them with sane ones so I think we are doing just fine."
Indeed, indeed, ignorance has surely become bliss for those who think they have learned.
Indeed, indeed, ignorance has surely become bliss for those who think they have learned.
Mel- Posts : 1703
Join date : 2011-10-08
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
How are we supposed to recognise good, if evil does not exist?
A reasonable mind can recognize good without the existence of evil, creating an environment where the worst possible suffering is inflicted on the most number of people seems counter intuitive to our well being and anyone intent on surviving.
Lessons are there to be learned not ignored or distorted into blame for evil doings. We (humans) have been slow in learning I'm sorry to say and will suffer accordingly for that..
If that is the case then why create both evil and slow learning humans ?
What does our learning abilities have to do with a God who intentionally murders 9 million children under 5 ever year through natural causes, apart from learning God is an evil sadistic genocidal sociopath.
Tosh- Posts : 2270
Join date : 2012-08-15
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Odd that you should say that, because I have been told that He speaks very highly of you if asked.
oftenwrong- Sage
- Posts : 12062
Join date : 2011-10-08
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Tosh wrote:
What does our learning abilities have to do with a God who intentionally murders 9 million children under 5 ever year through natural causes, apart from learning God is an evil sadistic genocidal sociopath.
No comment.
Last edited by RockOnBrother on Tue Sep 18, 2012 2:59 am; edited 2 times in total
Guest- Guest
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
"God who intentionally murders 9 million children under 5 ever year through natural causes, apart from learning God is an evil sadistic genocidal sociopath."
WHAT A LOAD OF TOSH!!!!!!!
It is man who not learned the lesson and until he does (which looks as if will never be the case) be prepared for the Lord to take drastic action against those who refuse to love their fellow beings, rather than murder them or allow them to unnecessarily die of famine or disease.
WHAT A LOAD OF TOSH!!!!!!!
It is man who not learned the lesson and until he does (which looks as if will never be the case) be prepared for the Lord to take drastic action against those who refuse to love their fellow beings, rather than murder them or allow them to unnecessarily die of famine or disease.
Mel- Posts : 1703
Join date : 2011-10-08
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
.It is man who not learned the lesson and until he does (which looks as if will never be the case) be prepared for the Lord to take drastic action against those who refuse to love their fellow beings, rather than murder them or allow them to unnecessarily die of famine or disease.
Earthquakes, Tsunamis, Hurricanes, Volcanoes, exploding comets, Ice ages, droughts,floods, mosquitoes and most of the infectious bacteria that kills humans all existed before humans evolved, sinned and refused to learn their lesson, this suggests you are wrong or God is.
Tosh- Posts : 2270
Join date : 2012-08-15
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Tosh,
Why do you not believe God exists?
Why do you not believe God exists?
Mel- Posts : 1703
Join date : 2011-10-08
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