Is it time for a vote of no confidence in this government?

First topic message reminder :

I've been working with some good leftie friends on twitter to get a an e-petition on the Governments own website for a Motion of No Confidence in the ConDem government.

As you probably know already:- if these petitions get accepted on the site and gain over 100k signatures they have to be considered for a Commons Debate.

The motion we propose to have is :

"We, the undersigned state that this government has not acted in the interests of the people of the United Kingdom.

We require there to be a Motion of No Confidence debate in the House of Commons followed by a vote of MPs in support of the motion"

The idea is that it is left as open as possible so that disillusioned people of all political persuasions will be able to sign it, in order to maximise the support it gets. Also if kept as brief as possible it is more likely to be accepted, as it is less likely to get caught by one of the many grounds for rejection on the government site.

We would very much appreciate any comments and suggestions that people on here have, and especially ideas on how we can spread the word to let the people know it is available for them if they wish to sign it.

No probs

We're all having a break till Monday anyway......

Blamhappy. It's patently obvious that you're intelligent and more than capable of understanding the law and becoming a competent magistrate. You also have a kind nature and wouldn't display a jaundiced or stereotypical view towards those brought before you for allegedly committing an offence.

I do know that you get some training for the role of magistrate these days, but I'm not sure if you get paid at all, you may only get expenses (and maybe compensation for loss of income if you're released from your regular job). You used to have to give a commitment to a certain number of days "on the bench" per month, but my knowledge has become rusty since it's quite a while since I was last in court!!


As you will soon be a mother, and as you need an income, it may not be ideal for you, but that doesn't detract from your eminent suitability.

I apologise to Bob (and to moderator Mel) for prolonging the deviation from the topic!

Hi Ivan, no apology necessary, its all in a good cause and we're taking a break from campaigning for the weekend anyway.

Blamhappy - looks to me like everyone on here holds you in high regard.

If you decide not to go into public service (at the moment?), because it doesn't meet your very valid needs, that's fine, I think everyone can understand that.

But please don't not do it because you don't think you are up to it, because you are a very able person.

Whatever you decide to do, I wish you the very best with it, and especially with becoming a Mother.

BobEllard wrote:
Blamhappy - looks to me like everyone on here holds you in high regard.

I know, and I've barely contributed! My loveable ditziness shines through. Haha!

How's the vote count for the petition?

The vote count stands at 455 signatures - http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/petition-for-a-motion-of-no-confidence-in-the-uk-coalit.html

which is pretty good since its only been two weeks

Best of all read, maybe have a read of some of the comments people have left: http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/petition-for-a-motion-of-no-confidence-in-the-uk-coalit/signatures.html

they give a real impression of how much feeling there is out there about this government.

Thats the good news.

What isn't so good is that:

a) to get this many signatures we've (me, Sampbang and SKWalker1964) had to really work hard and we're knackered already. Thats partly why we're taking the weekend off.

b) signatures in the hundreds aren't going to worry Cameron and Clegg in the slightest, to do that we're going to need hundreds of thousands of signatures.

We've had the petition out in front of (on a rough count) nearly 100,000 people (via retweets) this week and we're not getting the signatures to match it.

I can't believe that its because people agree with the coalition government (specially since the petition has mainly gone in front of left leaning people)

possible reasons I think are:

1) people are petition weary - there are so many going around

2) people don't think petitions make a difference

3) apathy

- I've got some sympathy for 1 and 2, and in a way for 3 as well,

But - if this is going to succeed we are going to have to find a way to make a step change in the responses - just working a bit harder won't do it

Thats why we're taking the weekend off completely to think about it and see what we need to to better and see what new ideas we can have.

So there we are - a good start - but still learning how to make this work - is how I'd summarise things after two weeks.

Hello Bob. Quote "We've had the petition out in front of (on a rough count) nearly 100,000 people (via retweets) this week and we're not getting the signatures to match it."

I think apathy is playing a great part here. In my own experience when having spoken to folk of working class/middle class origin, the response is that they take no interest in politics whatsoever. They may read the papers but ignore the political thrust and let's be honest the Tory rags do not highlight the things that might affect these people. The media news is also not of interest to them. IMO until things get worse (when the real austerity measures kick in) as if things are not bad enough so far, it will be then that these people wake up and really feel the pinch.
Unfortunately by the time they do start to take interest the damage will be done. Naivety is the problem in many cases.

The other aspect is that unfortunately since Thatcher's indoctinated dog eat dog attitute, the feeling out there is "who cares as long as it is not me who is too badly affected" Sad but there it is Bob.

Never the less we must keep trying every angle to get the message over and in that respect you are doing a fine job.

Thank you,
Mel

Thankyou Mel,

I do think there is much truth in what you say - and about things getting worse - I read that 88% of the cuts haven't happened yet! - people can't ignore that, and it will affect all of the 90% in one way or another

But actually I think people are starting to wake - this is what I've experienced a lot recently -

People have been following me on twitter - on my personal twit account - I've read their bio information and thought, "you won't be following me for long, I'm too political for you", but no, they've stayed, then I've got into conversation with them and I keep hearing "I've never taken an interest in politics before , but I'm really angry at this government and I'm getting active" -I've had this from about 20 people over the last month.

If my experience is being replicated all over - people really are waking up and getting engaged

I've been following politics since Thatcher came to power when I was at school - I've never experienced this before, Even over the Iraq war - there was a lot of anger (quite rightly) but it didn't cross over to getting engaged with politics generally.

The closest thing I can liken it too is over the poll tax in the late 80s/early 90's - but that was a single issue, this is more generalised.

Also there are several people on here who have been politically engaged but who have joined/rejoined the Labour party.

Any me - in at the start of the year - I wasn't politically active, but I've always followed politcs as a spectator sport and voted Labour every time

(well there was that little faux pas in voting LibDem at the last GE, when I reluctantly decided it might just get rid of the local tory rat. The experiment didn't go well - we still have the tory rat and I have the shame to live down - won't happen again!)

At the start of this year - I starting getting involved in 38 degrees campaigns on the NHS mainly - and It showed my I could be part of a collective voice, then I went on to suggesting a campaign and discussing how to move forward online with other 38 degrees people

Then I got into twitter and started to use my voice there. Then I joined the Labour party for the first time, then I got into this campaign with SampBang and SKWalker1964

I think people really are starting to wake up - I'd like to find out whether anyone else has noticed this

But there is another sort of apathy I keep encountering - from people who are already politicised - and I keep getting "why bother it won't make any difference, they'll just ignore you and do it anyway"

I think there is a well of politically aware but disillusioned people (and many of them are worn out from years of trying) out there and we could do with getting them back into the
fight

I'd be really interested to see if anyone else has noticed anything like this over the last few months?

IF (big IF) I'm right then slumbering Britain is waking up and getting angry, and if that is the case, the ConDems better watch out, cos I've seen it over the Poll Tax and when Britain wakes up it is a sight to behold.

Indeed Bob it would seem that many are beginning to "wake" although what you have said--Quote "But there is another sort of apathy I keep encountering - from people who are already politicised - and I keep getting "why bother it won't make any difference, they'll just ignore you and do it anyway"

These are the people I was to some extent referring to Bob. I recon they are en masse and will only "wake" later when they are also badly affected in some way shape or form. A little too late then I fear for gathering them together to bolster the fight for A Vote Of No Confidence.

I hope I am wrong, we shall see, my friend.

Interesting

So the implication of what you are saying, if I get it right, is that we are looking for support in the wrong place.

Asking people who are already politicised to sign won't work because they've seen too many petitions and they feel that the few that do get a lot of signatures don't have any effect anyway.

I've got some sympathy for that viewpoint, there are several petitions circling round twitter right now - all of them are for serious causes, but it does mean, I suspect that petition fatigue is setting in.

The other problem I realise with e-petitions is that people can only sign them once. And with the Twitter setup of followers - you tend to cover the same people over and over again, its hard to cover new ground.

So the answer it would seem, is to find a way to reach out beyond the people who are already engaged, to 'slumbering Britain', which was really the one of the aims of the project in the first place, to give people who have been harmed by this governments policies a means of registering a protest.

Thank you very much Mel, that contribution may have just saved the project from running out of steam.

For what is is worth Bob, having spoken to many many people within the age bracket of say 20yrs age to 60 yrs I do find apathy.
Those who are employed in the Public sector and those who are incapacitated or have close relatives who are affected so far and others by the cruel Government measures are crying out for anything that will help oust this shambles.
I find many those who are living on a little more than the living wage and feel safe in their jobs are not interested, or they are still complaining about our involvement in Iraq, or it's "immigration", or it's "benefit scroungers" to which they think the Tories will address. That does not mean they adore Cameron, far from it, however they hope Cameron will do something and therefore they live in hope.

I think many have taken the bait that they get less than those on benefit and that alone will keep them from signing a petition, until their personal bubble is burst by Tory austerity measures.

It is up to Ed and Co to realise these wavering peoples dislikes must be in some way addressed to complete the jigsaw.

I think what you are saying was definitely right six months ago, but I feel that things are changing, even if their 'personal bubble' has not been burst (yet) people are begining to feel it being threatened, they are starting to realise that the problem isn't someone else's it could very easily affect them.

But even so - there are a huge number of "Those who are employed in the Public sector and those who are incapacitated or have close relatives who are affected so far ....... are crying out for anything that will help oust this shambles. "

Those are the people I've been meeting on twitter - those are the people the campaign needs to reach out to.

I think another factor is in play too. You said "That does not mean they adore Cameron, far from it, "

That is very true Cameron didn't so much gain support at the last election, he managed to get people to suspend their disbelief that conservatives would act in their interest.

And that continued to work - right up to the moment of the budget when Osborne announced a cut in the top rate of tax. That was the moment that the spell broke and the illusion shattered.

I don't think the full effect of that blunder has been seen yet. Peoples distrust of Conservatives is back and it is still filtering through and gaining momentum.

And there is more - we haven't had the Jubilee and the Olympics yet. Both will reinforce the 'them and us' feeling that is growing. The feeling that I am getting in Kent - normally a place which would be very supportive of both is:

The Jubilee - there is not so much antagonism about it as more people see it as irrelevant to them and there is a feeling that any sort of celebration is not appropriate to the mood of the country.

However the Olympics - that's different - people (that's normal Joe Bloggs out in the street - not us lefties) are very angry about the amount of money being lavished on the event when everyone else is having a hard time.

There is real antagonism even now before the event starts. The Olympic torch isn't coming through where I live and the number of times I've heard something along the lines of "Good- we don't want the bloody thing"

And that's before the obscene money waste fest starts - the indications are that the Olympics have gone all out to outshine previous olympics and that isn't going to go down well at all with people who are struggling.

I've been talking to staunch tories of the hang'em-sack'em-deport'em variety (its hard to avoid doing that in Kent) who are ranting about the waste of the olympigs.

I'm expecting a long hot summer of discontent this year - I hope it doesn't turn violent, but I fear it will do.

Another factor is Leveson - that isn't playing down well with the public at all.

I still think we are just seeing the start of something big as far as opposition to this government is concerned.

And by the way I think Ed and Co are doing great - I'm really impressed with Ed and his team.

EdM for PM!

Personally, I don't think that it will do Ed Miliband and his team any harm to have a little more time to plan precisely what they intend to do in Government. The cracks are already appearing in the Coalition, and a General Election could come much sooner than was planned.

What must be made clear to the electorate is that not only is the Labour Party nothing like the Tories, but that neither is it in any way similar to the Brown administration. The Emperor must have new clothes that people can both see and touch.

Part of me wants just to say - people are hurting right now - EdM and the Labour party are just going to up their game. But I do also see the reality of the situation.

I do admit that I did almost not do this because of the chance of it backfiring on EdM and pushing for an election before Labour's new manifesto is ready.
n
And yes I agree Ed Miliband will need time to differentiate Labour with the past. Though personally I think Gordon Brown got a lot right, though I agree the public don't see it that way.

The last thing I would want to do is harm Labour's chances in any way.

It sounds the height of arrogance to have thought that way - we've only got 460 signatures - I don't think that will worry anyone very much.

But the point is that should this campaign be successful there is the theoretical potential for it to force an election before Labour is ready for it - and Labour could loose and we could end up with a Tory majority government - which would be a even bigger disaster.

I did think very seriously about this and went ahead for the following reasons:

1. Its about giving ordinary people a chance to voice a protest at the current government. That's one of the things I want to achieve with this

2. The original plan was to use the governments e-petition website - in which case gaining 100k sigs would have meant that the petition would have gone to a back bench committe which would decide wether to take the debate to the House of Commons - it would have been a non-binding resolution and not committed the government to anything. - but there is potential that this could have backfired on Labour.

3. We couldn't get the petition onto the government website (thats probably a good thing in hindsight). The petition is now hosted on a non-government site, though it still calls for a Vote of No Confidence in the Government.

So the petition itself can be ignored by parliament, and can't in itself trigger a Vote of No Confidence. BUT if we can get enough signatures (say a couple of hundredK or more) to take it to the Press and get publicity it would I believe put more pressure on the government.

Also if we could get signatures in that sort of number I believe it would give Ed Miliband and the Shadow Cabinet further ammunition with which to attack the ConDems.

In publicity terms it might also help to convince more people that the current government is a sham and that Labour are the only credible alternative.

4) my fourth reason for doing it is that if it is successful it might do a little bit to help Cameron get a nasty painful stomach ulcer from the stress.

This evening, I've read of two more u-turns. Blooming heck!

Blamhappy wrote:This evening, I've read of two more u-turns. Blooming heck!

According to a BBC Radio report, the Government has abandoned its Budget proposal to introduce VAT on hot Cornish Pasties, which has been WARMLY WELCOMED by some Tory back-benchers.

The static caravan tax being reduced from 20% to 5% intrests me just a little.

We have all these people being chased from their homes by ideology, nothing else, unless you are in Westminster, having to go on caravan sites to get by temporarily, and some flea ridden "advisor" comes up with hitting them again!

No amount of suffering for the little people is enough


Properly taxing the top 5% is to cause far far too much pain




Apparently.

A defeat for the government is good news, but I'm wondering where they will get the money from now, who they'll target instead - for sure it won't be millionaires or banks

"U turns" pha!!!. We need plenty more than just these two. Although better than none yet rather insignificant in comparison with the mass of what is needed in U turning.

Astra. Quote "We have all these people being chased from their homes by ideology, nothing else, unless you are in Westminster, having to go on caravan sites to get by temporarily, and some flea ridden "advisor" comes up with hitting them again!"

Excellent point my friend.

To avoid confusion, there is a legal distinction being made between "Park Homes" that belong to the people who live in them, and "Static Caravans" which form a blot on seaside landscapes to accommodate holidaymakers in the Summer. These are the ones becoming subject to VAT, as I understand it.

Osborne's Surefire Money-Maker

(financialnewstoday.co.uk)

"... and from today there will be 20% VAT on all Government u-turns..."

Only a Civil Servant could have come up with the definition of a VAT-able pie as one which was kept warm or re-heated, as opposed to the pie which retained warmth from the cooking process.

Do they ever stand back from what the Laws they propose actually say - and have a good chuckle? However it could assist with the unemployment problem if Inspectors are to be appointed to stand at the delicatessen counter of every Supermarket with a thermometer at the ready, to assess whether VAT is payable or not.

What happened to that chap who liked to say, "You couldn't make it up"?

I think there may be an opportunity for some entrepreneur to produce knitted pastie-overcoats similar to the popular dink-warmer.

If they have done a U Turn on the pastie tax, you can bet your bottom dollar Eric Pickles had something to do with it.

Don't you start! Next thing will be VAT on any pickles containing hot chillies.

What happened to that chap who liked to say, "You couldn't make it up"?

Do you mean Mr brown boots1? I think he became the caretaker of the Pease Pottage Conservative Club. Surprisingly, and despite several invitations, he chose not to join us at Cutting Edge. I can't think why, especially after I had assured him that he would be given a fair crack of the whip.
:affraid:

Thank's OW for "the distinction" between park homes and static
caravans.
I think our friend astra was referring to people who have had to leave their homes due to the cap on housing benefit being forced to go on caravan sites to "get by temporarily". He must mean "static caravans".

One has to remember that a great proportion of these people are on the min wage and therefore qualify for housing benefit. They are not all unemployed so called "benefit scroungers".
A cap should be set on extortionate rents that landlords know the benefit system will cover most if not all of it. London in particular is the worst example and to prove how ruthless some of these landlords can be, we find that they are pushing tenants out to make way for the visitors to the Olympics, where massive rents can be charged.

Old brown boots1 is happy now that his beloved Tories are in power (just)

He obviously prefers to attack Labour rather than having to defend his indefensible Tory party. Hence his lack of interest in joining this forum.

I always found brownboots quite entertaining........but admit it was with a frisson of guilt - one doesn't mind laughing with someone, but when one is laughing at them??

I miss brownboots.

But then, I am fond of all dumb animals.....

OOOOOOOOOh!!!!! You're so nice. Especially in that dog collar.

Caravans, any caravans are in VERY short supply. Ropers, here in Washington went out of business because they could not get enough Second Hand caravans to keep them turning over. (note, demand is there) During last winter there was a 6 month wait on your new pride and joy.

Difficulties have been arriving because of Government being stupid - high fuel tax has persuaded people to go abroad to get arrested, er, go on holiday,

Nature has been capricious. All the families flooded out of their homes, are naturally sent to Park Homes for housing. Some in Carlisle have been in temporary caravans since the FIRST flood there. Indeed the demand in Perth from the flood of 1998, had families going to park homes which became full, and the rest going into 'Static Holiday Homes' which became so full for such a time - and many are STILL so occupied that a change of business had to be drawn up for the park/site owners. This is why folk are going to Haven at Berwick and other places, paying £33k for a £18K static and taking the loss. The van NEVER realises theexcess levied for paperwork etc.
Due to the high fuel prices, GB is no longer seen as a viable country for a touring holiday. My friends on the continent STILL have not come back preferring to drive to Roscoff, a ferry to Cork and holiday in Ireland

Breaking news - we've just broken through 1000 signatures on the petition in 19 days and the rate of new signatures is accelerating.

Thankyou to everyone who's given advice encouragement and support, me, SampBang and SKWalker1964 really appreciate all your help.

Its a good beginning, but just a start, there's loads more to do

Excellent news Bob, keep up the good work.

Thank's.

BobEllard wrote:Breaking news - we've just broken through 1000 signatures on the petition in 19 days and the rate of new signatures is accelerating.

Thankyou to everyone who's given advice encouragement and support, me, SampBang and SKWalker1964 really appreciate all your help.

Its a good beginning, but just a start, there's loads more to do

Glad to see your petition is gathering pace BobEllard, please keep us informed on how its doing.

So, a Poll today suggests that the Tories are 14% behind Labour and that the LibDumbs are at a paltry 9%.

It's a really good job that the current recession in Britain is all Europe's fault, or the figures could have been even more cheerless for Cameron and his ventriloquist's dummy, Clegg...

Sorry I haven't reported back on progress for a while, I've been wrapped up in campaigning for the petition and other things on twitter

The latest news is we now have 1913 signatures on the petition, and we now have 555 twitter followers and 55 likes on the facebook page.

We've also got a lot of friends tweeting out the petition now. Its taken a lot of work, but its gradually and steadily growing.

Here's the petition link as a reminder.

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/petition-for-a-motion-of-no-confidence-in-the-uk-coalit.html

Also the other news is I'm going on Liverpool Community Radio tomorrow to represent the campaign and talk about the petition and what he government is up to.

If you want to listen to the show you can here it on www.l-c-r.co.uk wednesdays from 12-2, I;m going on after 12,30, so I can listen to PMQs first !

All such activity merits support, but for a No-confidence motion to succeed in the House of Commons, there must be a majority of MPs voting in favour. At this moment the Tory-led Coalition has the majority.

oftenwrong wrote:All such activity merits support, but for a No-confidence motion to succeed in the House of Commons, there must be a majority of MPs voting in favour. At this moment the Tory-led Coalition has the majority.

Yes, you are right.

So why am I bothering to put all this work in?

because:

1) first and foremost - its a way for ordinary people (who probably aren't likely to go out and demonstrate on the street) to register their protest at this government

2) if enough people sign (and we need multiples of what we have now) we can start taking it to the press and say - we have so many signatures of people who want this government out.

3) Again IF we have enough signatures - it will be political ammunition to politicians and groups who oppose the government

4) sure, its never ever going to get rid of this government by itself, but it might just be a small part of the overall opposition which brings this government down

5) The alternative is to just sit back on my arse and do nothing while whining about how bad it all is.

This is something I can do, so I'm doing it.

Now HERE's a gal with confidence .....

http://news.uk.msn.com/video-clips/?VideoID=2gj84he0

A slight touch of Tory schizophrenia OW.

It's all the suffragettes fault IMO.

Mel wrote:A slight touch of Tory schizophrenia OW.

It's all the suffragettes fault IMO.

Absolutely, they should have campaigned to make voting available to FEMALES ONLY. What sort of government might then have been elected two years ago?

Honestly! Day after day, the Labour Opposition is doing nothing but harrass the Tories at every turn. They waste no opportunity to criticise the government whatever the subject and find fault with just about everything, just for the sake of political points-scoring.

It would all be a matter of concern and regret were they not simply giving back to Cameron and his Grubby Gang exactly the same opportunistic spite as they so regularly received themselves up to 2010.

Consequently, we say : More, more, more...!