Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

by blueturando Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:10 pm

First topic message reminder :

Do Labour go hunting for the electorate who voted Blair into power 3 times and risk the wrath of the Unions, or side with the core Labour party supporters and the Unions at a risk of being unable to get back the voters who deserted them in the last election?

The scale of the rift between Labour and the unions over Ed Miliband's decision to embrace austerity measures has been made clear as a senior leader warned of long-term implications over the "most serious mistake" the party could have made.
Unions affiliated to Labour have been fuming since shadow chancellor Ed Balls told a conference at the weekend that he would not reverse the Government's planned 1% public sector pay cap, which affects millions of workers.
Unite leader Len McCluskey warned that Mr Miliband was setting Labour on course for electoral "disaster" and undermining his own leadership by accepting Government cuts and the cap on public sector pay.
Mr Miliband hit back against his union critics, insisting that Mr McCluskey was "wrong" to attack his decision to embrace austerity measures.
It has emerged that the leader of the GMB has written to the union's senior officials saying that the speech by Ed Balls may have a "profound impact" on its relationship with the Labour Party.
General secretary Paul Kenny said in the message: "I have spoken to Ed Milliband and Ed Balls to ensure they were aware of how wrong I think the policy they are now following is. It is now time for careful consideration and thought before the wider discussions begin on the long-term implications this new stance by the party has on GMB affiliation.
"It will be a fundamental requirement that the CEC (executive) and Congress determine our way forward after proper debate. I will update everyone as events unfold but I have to say this is the most serious mistake they could have made and the Tories must be rubbing their hands with glee." The GMB declined to comment on the message but confirmed it had been sent.
Mr McCluskey said in an article in The Guardian: "Ed Balls' sudden weekend embrace of austerity and the Government's public sector pay squeeze represents a victory for discredited Blairism at the expense of the party's core supporters. It also challenges the whole course Ed Miliband has set for the party, and perhaps his leadership itself."
Mr Miliband responded in a statement: "Len McCluskey is entitled to his views but he is wrong. I am changing the Labour Party so we can deliver fairness even when there is less money around and that requires tough decisions."

by Tosh Mon Oct 01, 2012 5:53 pm

Tosh, After around 30 years of right wing rule in this country, Labour will win by a landslide at the next general election.

I am not sure if you even understand what right wing is, 13 years of Labour spending double on health and education is not right wing in anyone's language. Labour will not win the next election, the global economy will remain stagnant until at least 2017, we are not irresponsible Greeks or Spaniards, we accept the need for austeriy and no one trusts Labour with money anymore.

Ar you a Tory, Tosh ?

Not at all, are you a Marxist Ivanovich ? Very Happy

I thought you lot had grown up or died.

by tlttf Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:17 pm

Since it's blatantly obvious that Labour haven't got the faintest idea of how to change things yo the benefit of the working man/woman, is it time they considered forming their own new political party that would give fair representation on behalf of working people.

Note; Labour talk about building new homes. Fact, there isn't a housing shortage, simply a shortage of housing in the area's people want to live. So they're trying to hit the emotive support of desperate people who can't get past the back page of the daily mirror.

Did anybody watch Miliband on the AM show, he sounded like a cross between a sulking kid and a belligerent shop steward, no wonder the coalition don't feel threatened.

Yes time for a new working man's party methinks!

by tlttf Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:35 pm

Hello Tosh, nice to see a new face? on board, irrespective of your politics it's always nice to welcome anybody that upsets Ivan's ultra left cut/paste monologue.

As for the labour party's position, how about doing what they do best, say one thing and line their pockets, go for it voters.

by Tosh Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:52 pm

As for the labour party's position, how about doing what they do best, say one thing and line their pockets, go for it voters..

It is a fact that a Labour councillor or MP will not recommend job cuts even if it is in the nation's or taxpayer's interest, most are sponsored by unions that represent the employees they would be making redundant. The elected official would be committing political suicide, and this obvious conflict of interest or cosey relationship must end.

by Ivanhoe Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:12 pm

Tosh wrote:
Tosh, After around 30 years of right wing rule in this country, Labour will win by a landslide at the next general election.

I am not sure if you even understand what right wing is, 13 years of Labour spending double on health and education is not right wing in anyone's language. Labour will not win the next election, the global economy will remain stagnant until at least 2017, we are not irresponsible Greeks or Spaniards, we accept the need for austeriy and no one trusts Labour with money anymore.

Ar you a Tory, Tosh ?

Not at all, are you a Marxist Ivanovich ?

I thought you lot had grown up or died.

Tosh, Tony Blair and Gordon Brown embraced Thatcher's free market from 1997. Thus ensuring another 13 years of right wing rule in Britain.

I say again, that Labour will win the next general election by a mammoth landslide.

by oftenwrong Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:40 pm

Money, money, money. The rich man's jokes are always funny.

No political party can ever hope to be elected by relying on the votes of Poor People, even though there are many more of them than there are of any other class or indeed all other classes put together.

Some people don't know which side their bread's buttered. Especially when they get their opinions ready-made from The Sun or The Mail. It's the Alf Garnett principle, innit?

by witchfinder Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:28 pm

There is nothing wrong with the free market principle, just so long as there is something called a regulator or regulation, or a watchdog.

There is a difference between a regulated free market and a "free for all" or a "free reign" which was the cause of the world wide financial crisis which led most of the world into recession.

The Labour Party are todays natural party of government, they have changed beyond all recognition from where they were in the mid to late 1970s, a completely different party with different principles.

Remember - the Conservatives did not win the last election, they scraped into government with help from Britains third party, and this was after a credit crunch - financial crisis and recession.

Private enterprise and business are no longer dirty words for the Labour Party, the CBI are as welcome to contribute to ideas as what trade unions are, ideas and policies are not driven by political dogma or socialist ideals from the Russian revolution.

It is the Conservative Party which has not changed, they are the ones who are still driven by political dogma, an in-built hatred of unions and public services, the way in which anything and everything must be "for profit" and not for the good of the people.

The present shape of the Labour Party is easily electable, and they will form the next government, they appeal to a wide cross section of society, but particularly the lower and middle classes, the union leaders should not be rocking the boat.

by **Ivan** Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:03 pm

oftenwrong wrote:-
No political party can ever hope to be elected by relying on the votes of Poor People, even though there are many more of them than there are of any other class or indeed all other classes put together. Some people don't know which side their bread's buttered.

Perhaps Nye Bevan summed it up when he wrote: “How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? That's the whole art of Tory politics.”

by Tosh Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:29 pm

Tosh, Tony Blair and Gordon Brown embraced Thatcher's free market from 1997. Thus ensuring another 13 years of right wing rule in Britain.

1. There was and is no alternative, telling free market globalistion to go away is not an economic policy.
2. It is the free market that provides the citizens of this tiny island a standard of living way beyond our size and resources. A tiny island has a tiny domestic market, too small to maintain a protected and self contained economy.
3. If you understand the free market you will know it regulates against monopoly and illegality, and like all systems involving human nature it is perfect in theory but imperfect in practice.
4. There is no debate about the free market, it has increased the quality of life of most working people, there will always be unfortunates under any system, unfortunately we are not all born equal.

by Ivanhoe Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:38 pm

Tosh wrote:
Tosh, Tony Blair and Gordon Brown embraced Thatcher's free market from 1997. Thus ensuring another 13 years of right wing rule in Britain.

1. There was and is no alternative, telling free market globalistion to go away is not an economic policy.
2. It is the free market that provides the citizens of this tiny island a standard of living way beyond our size and resources. A tiny island has a tiny domestic market, too small to maintain a protected and self contained economy.
3. If you understand the free market you will know it regulates against monopoly and illegality, and like all systems involving human nature it is perfect in theory but imperfect in practice.
4. There is no debate about the free market, it has increased the quality of life of most working people, there will always be unfortunates under any system.

Tosh, the sad thing is that you clearly believe this twaddle.

Suffice to say that the free market, without State intervention, represents legalised theft.

The free market has given us a massive rich and poor divide.

What is needed in Britain, is a fair distribution of our overall existing wealth, which has been accumulated care of income tax payers money, for decades.

by Tosh Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:41 pm

No political party can ever hope to be elected by relying on the votes of Poor People, even though there are many more of them than there are of any other class or indeed all other classes put together.

How did the Labour party get voted into power during the 20th century when the media was owned by the rich and most people were poor ?

John Major and Tony Blair responded to the needs/wants of the majority, who were sick of right wing and left wing ideologies.

by Tosh Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:53 pm

Tosh, the sad thing is that you clearly believe this twaddle.

Its basic economics, to deny it is silly.

Suffice to say that the free market, without State intervention, represents legalised theft.

Correct, it is free access to markets not free of regulation.

The free market has given us a massive rich and poor divide.

The rich have got richer but the poor have not got poorer.

What is needed in Britain, is a fair distribution of our overall existing wealth, which has been accumulated care of income tax payers money, for decades..

In a democracy the majority determine what is a fair distribution of wealth, and it seems we accept 1/3 to 1/2 of our hard earned money go toward altruistic and reciprocal services.

by Tosh Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:06 pm

There is a difference between a regulated free market and a "free for all" or a "free reign" which was the cause of the world wide financial crisis which led most of the world into recession.

What is now evidently clear is the free market magnifies supply/demand fluctuations, the effects of fraud or incompetence in a global system have global consequences, no one is immune. A clever government will build this risk into their policy making, just like the Germans with their £3 trillion surplus, this enabled them to support employers during the drop in demand, to prevent redundacies, closures and loss of markets..

America now gets pneumonia along with the rest of us, countries with large deficits all pay the piper( IMF and the Bond markets) at the expense of democracy, national debt = a nation of debt slaves. Politicians want their power back, they will all copy the German model and build up a surplus for the next inevitable bubble that will burst, disproportionate deficts in a globalized economy is a bad bad strategy for people who want political power.

by oftenwrong Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:30 pm

Rulers have always had most success when they toss a few goodies to the less fortunate, who will thus support the continued supply of crumbs from the rich man's table.

How then has the Coalition survived so long, acting as it does like an Invading Horde?

by Tosh Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:06 pm

Rulers have always had most success when they toss a few goodies to the less fortunate, who will thus support the continued supply of crumbs from the rich man's table.

20th century socialist Labour governments wanted and got far more than a few goodies or crumbs, they reduced the number of less fortunates to a minority, its called redistributing wealth and improving quality of life.

How then has the Coalition survived so long, acting as it does like an Invading Horde?.

The coalition survives because the masses prefer to tackle the deficit now rather tha later, they accept austerity is essential and this includes the public sector.

Keynesian assistance is a temporay measure, it cannot be the long term driving force behind the economy, especially when we are already up to our eyes in debt.

by Tosh Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:16 pm

the union leaders should not be rocking the boat..

People object to public sector employees being exempt from austerity and efficiency cuts, I would advise the Labour party to tread very carefully, our memories of political cronyism are not short.

by Ivanhoe Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:30 pm

Tosh wrote:
the union leaders should not be rocking the boat..

People object to public sector employees being exempt from austerity and efficiency cuts, I would advise the Labour party to tread very carefully, our memories of political cronyism are not short.

Tosh, you have turned this site into a haven of right wing economic garbage.

Factually, if Cameron wanted to cut the Deficit, without hurting the poor, ie "tough decisions", there are a number of ways this could be done.

Expenditure in the far east. Expenditure to the EU. These are just two examples.

In reality, Cameron is reducing welfare and the role of the State because the Tory right wing dont believe in either.

The Tory right wing believe in privatisation and charities. That's putting it simply.

by Tosh Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:43 pm

Expenditure in the far east. Expenditure to the EU. These are just two examples.

You wish to cut expenditure on our biggest revenue streams to reduce costs ?

Jesus.

What about cutting expenditure on our non-revenue streams ?

by blueturando Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:54 pm

Tosh, you have turned this site into a haven of right wing economic garbage

There are always two sides to the arguments Ivanhoe and I thought a political forum was meant to be about political debate, not back slapping your like minded buddies.

Ivanhoe I Know you do not agree with austerity so I would like to hear your big plan on how to get the UK out of the financial hole we find ourselves in. Do you have have an idea or just the usual leftie old school Labour sound bites?

by blueturando Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:00 am

When and if a Leftie Labour government comes to power and by punish the wealth creators to such a level that they bugger off else where, where will they get the money to splash out on their socialist programmes....And please don't say they wont move, because it's already happening

by Redflag Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:07 am

blueturando wrote:When and if a Leftie Labour government comes to power and by punish the wealth creators to such a level that they bugger off else where, where will they get the money to splash out on their socialist programmes....And please don't say they wont move, because it's already happening

That blue has always been the war cry of the right wingers, do not touch the wealthy or they will bugger off else where, if that is the case let them and tell them to take the CASINO B(W)ankers with them, because if something is not done and done quick we will have another banking crash like we had in 2008, and if you thought that we where bashing the bankers for what happened in 2008 the anger of the people would see bankers been strung up in the streets of the UK. lol!

by oftenwrong Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:49 am

Where should the Labour Party position itself?

The Centre of British politics is a very busy place. The electorate over a period of many years has shown that it won't return an extremist administration, so the reality for both ends of the spectrum Commies OR Fascists is parity with the Monster Raving Loonies.

Cameron is desperately fighting the anti-everything wing of his Party which threaten defection to UKIP, while Clegg's lot will enter any General Election with crossed fingers but not much to differentiate themselves from Labour.

Tony Blair recognised that the "old" Labour party was unelectable whilst it continued to retain Clause 4 plans to nationalise anything that moved and actively resisted the rapacious City moneymakers. Miliband, Balls and the entire shadow front bench have to revive Blair policies but call them by another name. Either that or choose a James Bond type to lead them into the next election, to attract the X-Factor vote.

by Ivanhoe Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:15 am

blueturando wrote:
Tosh, you have turned this site into a haven of right wing economic garbage

There are always two sides to the arguments Ivanhoe and I thought a political forum was meant to be about political debate, not back slapping your like minded buddies.

Ivanhoe I Know you do not agree with austerity so I would like to hear your big plan on how to get the UK out of the financial hole we find ourselves in. Do you have have an idea or just the usual leftie old school Labour sound bites?

Bluey,

We are a nation that has lost it's soul in fairness. We need in Britain a "fair" spread of wealth, decent State pensions for the elderly and forthcoming pensioners.

We need to rid ourselves of the means test by building Social housing at low rents for people who cannot afford to buy, we need to get people out of the high rent private sector, be they paying these rents outright, or in the trap of means tested housing benefit.

We need to abolish the unjust council tax and bring in a local tax based on ability to pay.

And to achieve all this and more, we need to spend more of our own GNP on our own people, including our vital public services.

And if this means taxing the rich more, so be it.

Im not into "soaking the rich". I am refering to fair taxes for services rendered which we all use everyday, including our NHS.

Now you can call this socialism, you can call it what you like. But in the real world it's called fairness.

by Tosh Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:05 am

Redflag,

Before we tell an industry that generated 25% of our natonal income to bugger off, can we find a replacement first ? Building freakin windmills aint gonna pay for the NHS.

It may have escaped your attention but the profits from casino banking funded a large chunk of the public sector expansion.

I would let these people get back to earning themselves and us billions of pounds, except this time make sure they pick up the tab for failing, I object to the tax payer footing the bill for any private gambling losses.

Our financial sector is the envy of the world, lets not throw out the baby with the bath water, and this time use the profits to address the imbalance in our economy by increasing our export output in manufacturing and technology services by about 6%. This wll make a more robust and rounded economy, one that is not overdependant on financial services, domestic consumption or export markets. Next stage is to stop our politicians running up huge deficits that threaten democracy, I object to being run by the Bond makets and the IMF. Create a surplus that will protect the inevitable losers from the next inevitable downturn, in fact why don't we just copy the Germans.

The problem with politicians is they are more interested in giving people what they want NOW to get votes, instead of saying no and doing what is best for the country's long term future.

by Tosh Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:46 am

We are a nation that has lost it's soul in fairness. We need in Britain a "fair" spread of wealth, decent State pensions for the elderly and forthcoming pensioners.

I assume you are approaching your pension and your idea of fairness is somewhat biased, the elderly do ok and would do better if their families helped out a little.

We need to rid ourselves of the means test by building Social housing at low rents for people who cannot afford to buy, we need to get people out of the high rent private sector, be they paying these rents outright, or in the trap of means tested housing benefit.

How do we establish need exists without testing the evidence, seems rather unscientific and impractical to me. We must not remove responsibility, high rents = big families, stop having children one cannot afford to house and feed, its just basic survival 101. The Beveridge Report did not recommend replacing personal responsibility with state entitlement, in fact it warned of the dangers of this, and nobody listened.

We need to abolish the unjust council tax and bring in a local tax based on ability to pay.

Without a means test ? Good God man, you are all over the place.

And to achieve all this and more, we need to spend more of our own GNP on our own people, including our vital public services.

Which part of structural deficit do you not understand, we already spend more than we earn. I think it is vital we spend money on creating more wealth then we can afford to spend more on our own people, earn first then spend not the other way around, its called debt avoidance.

And if this means taxing the rich more, so be it.

Regardless of how unfair this may be ?

Im not into "soaking the rich". I am refering to fair taxes for services rendered which we all use everyday, including our NHS.

I would like a fair return on my taxes, this means efficient services, including our NHS.

Now you can call this socialism, you can call it what you like. But in the real world it's called fairness.

In the real world its called Marxism, and the vast majority of citizens are not Marxists, this is unfortunae for you but this is the price we must all pay in a democracy. If you would like to impose your views on the majority then Marxism becomes Stalinism, and it has a poor track record.

Britain must prioritise its expenditure and there will be winners and losers, it is impossible in a deep recession for there to be no losers.

Tuition fees make me laugh, people bitching about having to pay £34 per month( £8 a week) once they earn £21k per year ( £400 a week), get freakin real.

by Tosh Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:59 am

Ivan,

You remind me of me when I was 17-18, then I found out that socialists were just as selfish and greedy as capitalists.

by Ivanhoe Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:22 pm

blueturando wrote:
Tosh, you have turned this site into a haven of right wing economic garbage

There are always two sides to the arguments Ivanhoe and I thought a political forum was meant to be about political debate, not back slapping your like minded buddies.

Ivanhoe I Know you do not agree with austerity so I would like to hear your big plan on how to get the UK out of the financial hole we find ourselves in. Do you have have an idea or just the usual leftie old school Labour sound bites?

Bluey, "Austerity" under the Tory means reducing the role of the State and cutting welfare because the Tory's dont believe in either.

Cameron is using the Deficit as a cover for doing the above, because the right wing Tories care little or nothing about the people they are hurting at the bottom end of the social and economic ladder.

Cameron is basically continuing what Thatcher initiated in the 80's. IE "ROLLING BACK THE STATE".

by Ivanhoe Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:30 pm

Tosh wrote:
We are a nation that has lost it's soul in fairness. We need in Britain a "fair" spread of wealth, decent State pensions for the elderly and forthcoming pensioners.

I assume you are approaching your pension and your idea of fairness is somewhat biased, the elderly do ok and would do better if their families helped out a little.

We need to rid ourselves of the means test by building Social housing at low rents for people who cannot afford to buy, we need to get people out of the high rent private sector, be they paying these rents outright, or in the trap of means tested housing benefit.

How do we establish need exists without testing the evidence, seems rather unscientific and impractical to me. We must not remove responsibility, high rents = big families, stop having children one cannot afford to house and feed, its just basic survival 101. The Beveridge Report did not recommend replacing personal responsibility with state entitlement, in fact it warned of the dangers of this, and nobody listened.

We need to abolish the unjust council tax and bring in a local tax based on ability to pay.

Without a means test ? Good God man, you are all over the place.

And to achieve all this and more, we need to spend more of our own GNP on our own people, including our vital public services.

Which part of structural deficit do you not understand, we already spend more than we earn. I think it is vital we spend money on creating more wealth then we can afford to spend more on our own people, earn first then spend not the other way around, its called debt avoidance.

And if this means taxing the rich more, so be it.

Regardless of how unfair this may be ?

Im not into "soaking the rich". I am refering to fair taxes for services rendered which we all use everyday, including our NHS.

I would like a fair return on my taxes, this means efficient services, including our NHS.

Now you can call this socialism, you can call it what you like. But in the real world it's called fairness.

In the real world its called Marxism, and the vast majority of citizens are not Marxists, this is unfortunae for you but this is the price we must all pay in a democracy. If you would like to impose your views on the majority then Marxism becomes Stalinism, and it has a poor track record.

Britain must prioritise its expenditure and there will be winners and losers, it is impossible in a deep recession for there to be no losers.

Tuition fees make me laugh, people bitching about having to pay £34 per month( £8 a week) once they earn £21k per year ( £400 a week), get freakin real.

We are in a deep recession to quote yourself, precisely because of ongoing right wing policies in this country since the 80's.

Our recession can only be cured by putting money in people's pockets so they can spend in the shops and this will keep our economy going.

We are in a recession due to the vast majority of the British people not having hardly any, disposable income.

And Cameron's ideological path is simply to continue creating unemployment, putting people on benefits which are also being cut.

And Students having to pay their tuition fees if, and I say, if, they get a job earning the right amount of salary, is a disgrace, when the majority of our own MP's got free education.

by Ivanhoe Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:46 pm

blueturando wrote:When and if a Leftie Labour government comes to power and by punish the wealth creators to such a level that they bugger off else where, where will they get the money to splash out on their socialist programmes....And please don't say they wont move, because it's already happening

Britain is a low income tax country, backed up by stealth taxation which hurts the less well off.

European countries like France and Germany, are high income tax zones. As a result, their vital services are fast and efficient.

If and when rich wealth creators leave Britain, where do they go to pay less income tax ?.

by blueturando Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:43 pm

European countries like France and Germany, are high income tax zones. As a result, their vital services are fast and efficient.

I think you may be wrong on Germany Ivanhoe, they pay less than the UK.. and France is only just about to change their tax rates now they have a socialist government. Let's see how many of the wealth creators stay there and pay 75%?

Germany individual income tax rates ,2012

Tax % Tax Base (EUR)
0 Up to 8,004
14% 8,005-52,881
42% 52,882-250,730
45% 250,731 and over

by blueturando Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:51 pm

Bluey, "Austerity" under the Tory means reducing the role of the State and cutting welfare because the Tory's dont believe in either.

Ivanhoe....when the state become to big to pay for, it has to be rolled back. I know you would prefer the whole country to be state managed and owned, but the whole world has come a long way since those days

Cameron is using the Deficit as a cover for doing the above, because the right wing Tories care little or nothing about the people they are hurting at the bottom end of the social and economic ladder.

I don't know how you manage your own finances, but if I look at my bank account and see that I don't have much money, I don't then go out and spash the cash. This leads to MORE debt....And you wonder why Labour are not trusted with the purse strings??!!!

by blueturando Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:09 pm

That blue has always been the war cry of the right wingers, do not touch the wealthy or they will bugger off else where

Great!! And if they do, where are you going to make up the short fall in tax revenue? Dig deep in your pockets Redflag, you'll need too

The highest-earning 1 per cent of Britons pay almost 30 per cent of all income taxes, according to research.
The 308,000 on the 45p top rate – who earn more than £150,000 – pay £47billion a year to the Treasury.
Since 2000, the share of tax paid by the highest earners has risen from 22.2 to 27.7 per cent.

by Ivanhoe Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:13 pm

blueturando wrote:
That blue has always been the war cry of the right wingers, do not touch the wealthy or they will bugger off else where

Great!! And if they do, where are you going to make up the short fall in tax revenue? Dig deep in your pockets Redflag, you'll need too

The highest-earning 1 per cent of Britons pay almost 30 per cent of all income taxes, according to research.
The 308,000 on the 45p top rate – who earn more than £150,000 – pay £47billion a year to the Treasury.
Since 2000, the share of tax paid by the highest earners has risen from 22.2 to 27.7 per cent.

They will bugger off to the EU where income taxes are higher. Not many ordinary people realise this, because the media like to keep the general public, ignorant.

by blueturando Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:17 pm

Ivanhoe...I have just posted a graph on Germanys income tax rates proving this isn't the case.

by Tosh Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:33 pm

We are in a deep recession to quote yourself, precisely because of ongoing right wing policies in this country since the 80's.

mmm, its a global deep recession, and it is forecasted to hang around for another 5 years or more, you seem to underestimate the severity of our situation.

Our recession can only be cured by putting money in people's pockets so they can spend in the shops and this will keep our economy going.

Borrow more money=pay more interest=inflation=higher prices= less for your money=higher wages =borrow more money=Poor Man of Europe =IMF=non-democratic austerity.
We have been on this roundabout once before and we got sick.

We are in a recession due to the vast majority of the British people not having hardly any, disposable income.

We are bumping along the bottom for many reasons, one of which is we owe too much money both personally and nationally, your solution is to borrow more money.

And Cameron's ideological path is simply to continue creating unemployment, putting people on benefits which are also being cut.

Unemployment remains stubborn in countries with growth, when will the penny drop, our governments can no longer control the market, the developed countries have citizens who are technologically unemployable, and it is not going to change..........ever.

And Students having to pay their tuition fees if, and I say, if, they get a job earning the right amount of salary, is a disgrace, when the majority of our own MP's got free education.

Economic and political policies must be flexible and reflect the times, stop living in the past, your policies are rigid and obsolete. Bad ideas just do not last.

by Mel Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:47 pm

"The 308,000 on the 45p top rate – who earn more than £150,000 – pay £47billion a year to the Treasury."

Remember many of the 308,000 you mention are employed and are not owners of businesses. Many would not wish nor be able to find the same jobs overseas. Another obsticle is the language problem although I accept many foreigners speak English of some sort, still difficult, many would find moving overseas away from their friends and families unacceptable.
As for those earning more than £150k pa, of which there are many, they use off shore accounts, holding a once a year board meeting in a small office in their designated tax avoidance countries which allows them to claim business residence in that country and therefore can wangle their tax avoidance inititive.
Increasing the higher rate of taxation for these wealthy people means nothing and don't expect the Tories to clamp down on these massive tax avoidence schemes, for many of tose in cabinet are at it themselves.

by Mel Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:53 pm

Remember, speculate to accumlate!!!!. Pour cash into our infrastucture, simple. This lot of tyrants are borrowing more than the last Labour administration and doing nothing with it (even though borrowing is at its cheapest)who have been slated to the nth degree for doing so.

by blueturando Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:36 pm

Hi Mel......Well I tell you what....wouldn't it be nice if the 2 Eds declared at Conference that they will increase the higher tax band to 75% just as Hollande has in France. Stop all the fake Labour BS and put your money where your mouth is.

So far we've had Balls say he will keep the freeze on public sector wages and keep all of the coalitions cuts......so why is it a case of the Tories are evil, but we will do the same (hypercritical) Or does Balls know from his days in the Treasury, that actually....there is no money left, as one of his colleagues kindly reminded us as they left office in 2010

Sometime I wonder if you and Ivan are on the Labour payroll and get paid to spin this cr*p

On offshore accounts, well I have kind of an insiders view here. For 27 years now, I have regularly seen hundreds of 2 up 2 down offices here in Jersey with company name plates sometimes consisting of between 100 and 250 registered company names...for each office. These are companies from all over the world, not just the UK.......So I know you would like to paint this as a Tory problem, but the same thing flourished without a word being said for 13 years of New Labour government.
So are we to take it as 'Red' that Ed Milliband would close down all tax havens?

by Tosh Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:47 pm

The highest earners contribute almost 30% of tax revenue, if you put up their tax by 10% this will make it 33%, and if 10% leave due to high taxation then its back to roughly 30%.

by Tosh Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:03 pm

Remember, speculate to accumlate!!!!. Pour cash into our infrastucture, simple.

As America is finding out, Keynesian investment does not solve unemployment or create sustainable growth, its a temporay measure only and this recession is far from short term.

What annoys me is Labour had the money and the time to address public sector wastage, the long term unemployed/sick, benefit cheats, rich tax dodgers and did nothing.
Now we are dragging people off the dole and sick and there are really no jobs for them.

by Redflag Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:10 pm

blueturando wrote:Hi Mel......Well I tell you what....wouldn't it be nice if the 2 Eds declared at Conference that they will increase the higher tax band to 75% just as Hollande has in France. Stop all the fake Labour BS and put your money where your mouth is.

So far we've had Balls say he will keep the freeze on public sector wages and keep all of the coalitions cuts......so why is it a case of the Tories are evil, but we will do the same (hypercritical) Or does Balls know from his days in the Treasury, that actually....there is no money left, as one of his colleagues kindly reminded us as they left office in 2010

Sometime I wonder if you and Ivan are on the Labour payroll and get paid to spin this cr*p

On offshore accounts, well I have kind of an insiders view here. For 27 years now, I have regularly seen hundreds of 2 up 2 down offices here in Jersey with company name plates sometimes consisting of between 100 and 250 registered company names...for each office. These are companies from all over the world, not just the UK.......So I know you would like to paint this as a Tory problem, but the same thing flourished without a word being said for 13 years of New Labour government.
So are we to take it as 'Red' that Ed Milliband would close down all tax havens?

At least the Labour party would not be giving the Millionaires a 5p REDUCTION in there taxes, while at the same time taxing the pensioners more because they saved for there retirement so what does that say too the future old age pensioners of tomorrow "DO NOT SAVE" for your future because a Tory gov't will hammer your savings.

The only ones spinning of CRAP is done by this shower of dick heads of a so called gov't, and the top spinners of crap is the hedge fund managers and the B(W)ankers not Ivan so if you want to be know as a fair minded Tory voter which I have always thought you to be, before you spout tory party machine crap think11111111111

Yes blue, Labour did make some mistakes regarding offshore accounts, my problem with that is Companies and business make there money HERE in the UK but put the majority of it in off shore accounts so they do not have to pay there FAIR share of tax, just think if the normal man/women of the UK put there salary in off shore accounts before the tax man got his hands on it, who would pay the salaries of this crappy gov't or pay for the tax cut for MILLIONAIRES. lol!

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