Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

First topic message reminder :

Do Labour go hunting for the electorate who voted Blair into power 3 times and risk the wrath of the Unions, or side with the core Labour party supporters and the Unions at a risk of being unable to get back the voters who deserted them in the last election?
 

The scale of the rift between Labour and the unions over Ed Miliband's decision to embrace austerity measures has been made clear as a senior leader warned of long-term implications over the "most serious mistake" the party could have made.
Unions affiliated to Labour have been fuming since shadow chancellor Ed Balls told a conference at the weekend that he would not reverse the Government's planned 1% public sector pay cap, which affects millions of workers.
Unite leader Len McCluskey warned that Mr Miliband was setting Labour on course for electoral "disaster" and undermining his own leadership by accepting Government cuts and the cap on public sector pay.
Mr Miliband hit back against his union critics, insisting that Mr McCluskey was "wrong" to attack his decision to embrace austerity measures.
It has emerged that the leader of the GMB has written to the union's senior officials saying that the speech by Ed Balls may have a "profound impact" on its relationship with the Labour Party.
General secretary Paul Kenny said in the message: "I have spoken to Ed Milliband and Ed Balls to ensure they were aware of how wrong I think the policy they are now following is. It is now time for careful consideration and thought before the wider discussions begin on the long-term implications this new stance by the party has on GMB affiliation.
"It will be a fundamental requirement that the CEC (executive) and Congress determine our way forward after proper debate. I will update everyone as events unfold but I have to say this is the most serious mistake they could have made and the Tories must be rubbing their hands with glee." The GMB declined to comment on the message but confirmed it had been sent.
Mr McCluskey said in an article in The Guardian: "Ed Balls' sudden weekend embrace of austerity and the Government's public sector pay squeeze represents a victory for discredited Blairism at the expense of the party's core supporters. It also challenges the whole course Ed Miliband has set for the party, and perhaps his leadership itself."
Mr Miliband responded in a statement: "Len McCluskey is entitled to his views but he is wrong. I am changing the Labour Party so we can deliver fairness even when there is less money around and that requires tough decisions."

says more about your eyesight than insight……certifiable…..I thought you lot had grown up or died.

Tosh, we can always rely on you to make it personal. Never mind, let’s have a look at your recent trite postings on behalf of the Tory Party.

Socialism ignores human nature

No it doesn’t. Friedman argued that self-interest rules us, but there’s plenty of altruism out there. Human nature does involve caring about others, whether family, friends, neighbours or just accepting that less fortunate people need care and consideration.

I am not sure if you even understand what right wing is, 13 years of Labour spending double on health and education is not right wing in anyone's language.

If you think that Labour is left wing, I suggest you take a look at this site:-
http://www.politicalcompass.org/ukparties2010

There was and is no alternative

LOL - Thatcher, 1981. There are always alternatives in a democracy to anyone who doesn’t have a fascist mentality.

Britain has maxed out its credit card.

Jeez, so corny and so misleading that even Andrew Neil groaned and silenced Caroline Spelman when she tried to trot out that tired old Tory drivel. They can find money when they want to, such as the billions wasted on reorganising and privatising the NHS.

As Johann Hari put it: “In a recession, private individuals like you and me, perfectly sensibly, cut back our spending. We go out less, we buy less, we save more. This causes a huge fall in private demand, and with it a huge fall in economic activity. If, at the very same time, the government cuts back, then overall demand collapses, and a recession becomes a depression. That’s why the government has to do something counter-intuitive. It has to borrow and spend more, to apply jump-leads to the economy. This prevents economic collapse. Instead of spending a fortune on dealing with mass unemployment and economic breakdown, with all the misery that causes, it spends the money on restoring growth.”
https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t646-keynes-friedman-and-the-paradox-of-thrift-who-is-right

The global economy will remain stagnant until at least 2017, we are not irresponsible Greeks or Spaniards, we accept the need for austerity and no one trusts Labour with money anymore.

Is austerity working in Greece and Spain? No. If our economy remains stagnant, the Tories will have even less than their current slim chance of getting re-elected, or should I say elected. The “it’s all Labour’s fault” lie has worn pretty thin and guarantees an audience reaction on ‘Question Time’ nowadays. And do you seriously think Osborne is trusted with our money? An opinion poll said that 1% of voters think he’s our best Chancellor in the last thirty years (Brown came top with 20%).

If you understand the free market you will know it regulates against monopoly and illegality.

LOL. One or two people at Barclays who specialised in rate-fixing would have a good laugh at that one.

There is no debate about the free market

Yes there is. It can be unrestrained, as Friedman wanted and Tories and US Republicans want, or regulated in social democratic systems.

How did the Labour Party get voted into power during the 20th century when the media was owned by the rich and most people were poor?

Because people fought for and won the right to vote and there have always been more poor people than rich.

The rich have got richer but the poor have not got poorer.

The poor are certainly getting poorer now. The rich aren’t, they’re having a cut in their income tax.

They will all copy the German model

Pity we don’t copy Germany, where the richest 10% of the population earn six times as much as the poorest 10%. In the UK, the richest ‘earn’ twelve times as much. London is one of the most unequal cities on earth, where the top 10% receive 273 times more than the bottom 10%.

The coalition survives because the masses prefer to tackle the deficit now rather than later, they accept austerity is essential and this includes the public sector.

The coalition (or rather Tory-dominated government) was built on lies for which nobody voted. The voters haven't been asked if they want austerity, a policy which has been shown not to work time and time again. Whoever heard of an unemployed man paying off his debts? Hari again: “Which countries have come out of this recession fastest? They are the ones like South Korea, which have had by far the biggest stimulus packages, paid for with (yes) higher debt. Which countries have fallen furthest and shattered most severely? The ones that tried to pay down their debts immediately with huge cuts.”

Keynesian assistance is a temporary measure, it cannot be the long term driving force behind the economy, especially when we are already up to our eyes in debt.

The philosophy of Keynes was largely accepted from Roosevelt’s New Deal in the 1930s until first Pinochet (1973) and then Thatcher and Reagan (1979-80) fell under the influence of Friedman.

The UK has been in debt for all but 50 of the last 300 years, and the problem is getting worse because of the crackpot policies of Cameron and Osborne.

Our memories of political cronyism are not short.

They don’t have to be, because it’s rife at the moment, with contracts being awarded to companies with links to Tory MPs and which donate to the Tory Party. As Nye Bevan once said: "Toryism is nothing more than organised spivvery."

The elderly do ok and would do better if their families helped out a little.

Pensioners did do well under Labour, with the pension increasing in real terms, various so-called ‘perks’ and a minimum income guarantee (pension credit). But it’s a very Tory thing to say that families should help out, though I’m sure some do. Many families are hard-pressed to pay enormous mortgages and feed and clothe their kids, and some people haven’t got any family.

Labour will not win the next election

All the evidence suggests otherwise, but of course you know best, and you’ve told us “you’re never wrong”. As Bertrand Russell once said: “The fundamental cause of trouble in the world is that the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.”

Have a read of this Ivan...dunno if you spotted it or not last night on twitter. I don't usually agree with anything that comes out of a tories gob, but this fella is spot on!

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ramesh-patel/david-cameron-ed-balls_b_1920913.html?utm_hp_ref=tw

Whoops! The deck-chairs are being re-arranged. Seem to have lost an amusing posting down the back of the sofa.

When I have on the odd occasion taken the trouble Tosh, I have found you tend to reply with sarcasm when you are cornered and found wanting.

I respond like for like, you are the one dragging this discussion away from political/economic content toward ad hominem sarcasm, am I to assume your motives are more noble than the ones you ascribe to me ?

As I said, Britain is not America, and America is not out of the wood by a long chalk, despite 4 years of Keynesian intervention and a huge domestic market.

There is no quick solution to global debt, free market capitalism is Darwinian, when the music stops only the fittest economies will survive.

As it happens Britain's debt and over reliance on banking made us one of the weakest, it is economically essential we reduce this debt before the predator inflation arrives, and it will arrive. If you think the people with the real capital are going to allow their worth to be devalued by money printers, then you are deluded. Britains personal and national debt coupled with high interest rates would send our economy into an inflationary death spiral.

The best economies and most successful countries have free market economies with a principle known as "The Social Market Economy" as in for example Germany / West Germany under both the CDU and the left of centre SPD parties.

We do not need to be dogmatic about economics, and we should not be blinkered to reality or have closed minds, the British Conservative Party believes in everything been private, everything must be about profit, but this is a long long way from the principles of Angela Merkel and her right of centre Christian Democratic Union in Germany.

You and Blue have a functioning brain.

I agree with both of your views.

Astradt......Are you talking about Corporate taxes, or the billions of income tax paid by people who work for private companies? Just thought I'd ask..

Of course it is the corporate tax which some of the Big Companies have managed to avoid paying by moving their headquarters overseas......

If you are just talking about the workers paying tax then that's a taken because most will be on PAYE and not have the wherewithal to avoid paying.....You should also remember that those working in the public sector also pay their tax......

Who are these 'wealth creators' the right keep talking about?

astradt1 wrote:Who are these 'wealth creators' the right keep talking about?

That question I can answer astradt1 the ones that scam..er..on has given the £40,000 tax relief too coming into effect in April 2013, or the 5p tax cut to those SPIVS earning £150.000 or more including the Millionaires in Scam..er..ons crappy gov't.

Who are these 'wealth creators' the right keep talking about?

All those who work are wealth creators to a certain degree, but if we are talking in the terms I think we are then it will be businesses who look to grow their staff numbers, make profits and or branch out into other parts of the country and jurisdictions to grow their businesses. There are many out there, but unfortunately more and more are becoming foreign owned

Red and other Labourites........Please stop with the pretence, you are only fooling yourselves.
The top rate of income tax under 13 years of New Labour was 40% and was only changed a couples months prior to a GE that your party leader knew he would lose

So why didn't Brown increase the top rate to 50%? I guess he favoured the rich?....So what lame excuse are you going to come back at me with on this one....I cant wait

Adele Carlyon wrote:And if we see that greengrocers daughter we could always chuck her in a salt mine! It'd just save no amount of heartache and cruelty in the long run!

She sure as hell held the working class in utter contempt. But the least I can do is help to keep her memory alive by wearing my Still Hate Thatcher T Shirt when she finally croaks it!

Well put Adele,

Can you believe the people who continue to admire this pile of jumped up working class garbage.?

Does anybody know why Ivan deleted my topic on "should the unions start their own political party". It seems to have upset him and so (as is his right apparently) been deleted. Has the forum finally lost sway with free speech unless it's grovelling at the feet of socialism, or am I expecting too much in the name of free speech and democracy?

Socialism ignores human nature

No it doesn’t. Friedman argued that self-interest rules us, but there’s plenty of altruism out there. Human nature does involve caring about others, whether family, friends, neighbours or just accepting that less fortunate people need care and consideration.

Ivan,

Socalism ignores the plain fact that all humans are motivated out of self interest: Unions, employees and nationalised institutions are not interested in altruism or the country's welfare, they are interested in their own welfare.

Milton Friedman's philosophy is actually Ayn Rand's, I have studied Ayn Rand because of her atheism and could not avoid studying her views on altruism. Simply put, it is irrational and wrong for the state( the majority) to impose altruism on any individual. Altruism is self sacrifice and only the self( individual) should have the right to decide if they wish to sacrifice. They are not against altruism, they are against it being imposed by the state, they have no problems with reciporacation but view state altruism as a breach of individual rights.

I disagree with this view out of self interest, state altruism makes our environment more safe and secure, and we are all products of our environment. Morality is all about rational self interest.

Ivanhoe wrote:

Adele Carlyon wrote:And if we see that greengrocers daughter we could always chuck her in a salt mine! It'd just save no amount of heartache and cruelty in the long run!

She sure as hell held the working class in utter contempt. But the least I can do is help to keep her memory alive by wearing my Still Hate Thatcher T Shirt when she finally croaks it!

Well put Adele,

Can you believe the people who continue to admire this pile of jumped up working class garbage.?

It beggars belief in my book, but hey, some people are obviously only interested in no 1. Quite sad really!

tlttf wrote:Does anybody know why Ivan deleted my topic on "should the unions start their own political party". It seems to have upset him and so (as is his right apparently) been deleted. Has the forum finally lost sway with free speech unless it's grovelling at the feet of socialism, or am I expecting too much in the name of free speech and democracy?

Was it definately deleted or has it been merged with something else?

blueturando wrote:Red and other Labourites........Please stop with the pretence, you are only fooling yourselves.
The top rate of income tax under 13 years of New Labour was 40% and was only changed a couples month prior to a GE that your party leader knew he would lose

So why didn't Brown increase the top rate to 50%? I guess he favoured the rich?....So what lame excuse are you going to come back at me with on this one....I cant wait

The only person to stop the pretense is you blue, the pretense that your dick heads that are a poor excuse for gov't are RUINING our country, and do not forget what the Maggot done when she got in AGAIN cut the top rate of tax for the wealthy and the Millionaires, and who do you think that had the tax at 50p so that your shitty A**ED shower reduced it to 45p.

I am glad your waiting for me to come back at you, I used to think of you as a fair mined Tory voter now your just as bad as the fcuking rest of the blue rinse mob.

Fortunately on Thatcher only the ultra left cannot see that she is right up there as one of the countrys best PM's ever

Top 12 PM's

In 2010, the University of Leeds and Woodnewton Associates carried out a survey of 106 academics who specialised in British politics and/or British history since 1945.[1][2]

# Prime Minister Years in Office Political party
1 Clement Attlee 1945–1951 Labour
2 Margaret Thatcher 1979–1990 Conservative
3 Tony Blair 1997–2007 Labour
4 Harold Macmillan 1957–1963 Conservative
5 Harold Wilson 1964–1970, 1974–1976 Labour
6 Winston Churchill 1940–1945, 1951–1955 Conservative
7 James Callaghan 1976–1979 Labour
8 John Major 1990–1997 Conservative
9 Edward Heath 1970–1974 Conservative
10 Gordon Brown 2007–2010 Labour
11 Alec Douglas-Home 1963–1964 Conservative
12 Anthony Eden 1955–1957 Conservative

Can't find it anywhere Adele, it must have been deleted. Never mind though

IPSOS MORI - POLL

1 Clement Attlee (Lab. 1945-51) 8.34
2 Winston Churchill (Con. 1940-45, 51-55) 7.88
3 David Lloyd George (Lib. 1916-22) 7.33
4 Margaret Thatcher (Con. 1979-90) 7.14
5 Harold Macmillan (Con. 1957-63) 6.49
6 Tony Blair (Lab. 1997- ) 6.30
7 Herbert Asquith (Lib. 1908-16) 6.19
8 Stanley Baldwin (Con. 1923-24, 24-29, 35-37) 6.18
9 Harold Wilson (Lab. 1964-70) 5.93
10 Lord Salisbury (Con. 1895-1902) 5.75
11 Henry Campbell-Bannerman (Lib. 1906-08) 5.01
12 James Callaghan (Lab. 1976-79) 4.75
13 Edward Heath (Con. 1970-74) 4.36
14 Ramsay MacDonald (Lab. 1924, 29-31, 31-35) 3.73
15 John Major (Con. 1990-97) 3.67
16 Andrew Bonar Law (Con. 1922-23) 3.50
17 Neville Chamberlain (Con. 1937-40) 3.43
18 Arthur Balfour (Con. 1902-05) 3.42
19 Alec Douglas-Home (Con. 1963-64) 3.33
20 Anthony Eden (Con. 1955-57) 2.53

YOUGOV POLL

The best prime ministers (scores from five to 0):

•Margaret Thatcher - 5

•Clement Richard Attlee - 5

•Edward Heath - 4

•Winston Churchill - 4

•Harold Macmillan - 4

•Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman - 4

•Robert Arthur Talbot Gascoyne-Cecil [later Lord Salisbury] - 3

•Herbert Henry Asquith- 3

•David Lloyd George- 3

•Stanley Baldwin- 3

•James Harold Wilson- 3

•Tony Blair- 3

•James Callaghan - 2

•Arthur James Balfour - 2

•Andrew Bonar Law - 1

•James Ramsay MacDonald -1

•Sir Alec Douglas-Home - 1

•John Major - 1

•Robert Anthony Eden - 0

•Neville Chamberlain - 0

How did Blair manage to get 3 Blue, sounds like a bit of spin to me.

Redflag,

I believe they would execute you in Texas for your political views.

My top 3 are:

Lloyd George.

Margaret Thatcher.

Gordon Brown.

How did Blair manage to get 3 Blue, sounds like a bit of spin to me.

Maybe he got Gadaffi to make all his people vote for him in exchange for a place at a top British Uni for his lovely Son

I believe Ed stole " One Nation " from Kenneth Kaunda, I was at school and had to chant " One Zambia....One Nation ".

I am glad your waiting for me to come back at you, I used to think of you as a fair mined Tory voter now your just as bad as the fcuking rest of the blue rinse mob

Red...Believe me I am fair minded and do I think the current lot are doing a good job??? NO!!!!!...But what I hate more is Bullsh*t and now you've gone on a rant because you cannot answer why New Labour kept the top rate at 40%...keeping the rich, richer

As for Thatch? Well a top rate of 83% by the previous Labour government did a fat lot of good for the economy...Not!!!

Nice one blue.

Tosh, I can agree with the first 2, I can only assume Brown is there as the reason that people became totally disenfranchised with politics.

Tosh, I can agree with the first 2, I can only assume Brown is there as the reason that people became totally disenfranchised with politics..

He was a true altruist, devoid of personality but full of character, if it wasn't for Brown the world's economy would have imploded, he saved the world and he was Scottish and a Fifer.

tlttf wrote:Can't find it anywhere Adele, it must have been deleted. Never mind though

Drop Ivan a PM I'm sure he can clarify for you. Have you been a naughty boy again? tut tut lol

Red....I always read with interest posts from all sides of the specrum and I always try to keep and open mind as I aim to learn a thing or two from people like Ivan and Bobby.
Unfortunately when the Bullsh*t starts, the Tory in me comes to the fore and I have to address it
Why do Labourites assume that we all have Alzheimer's and we must forget and not mention the past...Unless its Thatch of course

I think all political party's do things that are wrong, it's just the way it is. But a lot of people, whether you like it or not think the tory party are plain nasty. Cruel even!

There's a lot of money in this world, but too much of it is in the hands of too few. And lots of them have never broken a sweat in their lives.

You thnk Thatcher was our savior, you're entitled to think that Blue. But don't expect people who's lives her policies ruined to ever say that they think the sun shone out of her arse-hole, as it will never happen.

Britain had two major problems, loony left unions and nationalised industries, she killed two birds with one iron fist, and prepared Britain for globalisation.

God bless her.

It won't be the politicians who steer the country back to prosperity, nor the Service Sector, nor the City of London.

Somehow the phoenix of British Industry must be helped to raise from the ashes of 1980s decimation. Manufacturing and export of the manufactured product will be more effective than any Westminster chicanery.

oftenwrong wrote:It won't be the politicians who steer the country back to prosperity, nor the Service Sector, nor the City of London.

Somehow the phoenix of British Industry must be helped to raise from the ashes of 1980s decimation. Manufacturing and export of the manufactured product will be more effective than any Westminster chicanery.

Absolutely spot on!

Great post OW, though your dates are wrong, the decimation and collapse started in the late 60's, it simply took 20 years for the effects to hit, thank (whoever) for Thatcher.

It won't be the politicians who steer the country back to prosperity, nor the Service Sector, nor the City of London. Somehow the phoenix of British Industry must be helped to raise from the ashes of 1980s decimation. Manufacturing and export of the manufactured product will be more effective than any Westminster chicanery..

High-Tech manufacturing and services may be incentivised to grow, but old style British engineering is dead, there just isn't the skill base and these skills are available and cheaper in Asia and India. I hate to break the bad news, but most of post-war British manufacturing was a nationalised gravy train that spoon fed its sub-contractors.

Ravenscraig Steel employed 3000 people and doubled their productivity after Thatcher/MacGregor decided to shut it, let me repeat, doubled its output in one year. Too late.

Lets not get too doey eyed about men standing at a furnace, lathe or coal face for the rest of their working lives, it was no picnic. Manufacturing and heavy drinking were not common bed fellows for nothing.

Does anybody know why Ivan deleted my topic on "should the unions start their own political party". It seems to have upset him and so (as is his right apparently) been deleted. Has the forum finally lost sway with free speech unless it's grovelling at the feet of socialism, or am I expecting too much in the name of free speech and democracy?.

tlttf. If you could see further than the end of your nose, you would be aware that nothing has been deleted. Your message didn't merit a new thread and was transferred to an existing one, so be a good Tory and check your facts before throwing around accusations. Your apology is awaited.

Were you even here at that period, Tosh?

Britain is relatively successful in some areas of advanced manufacturing, such as aerospace and pharmaceuticals, but the way forward must be an alliance of the Universities and Engineers to apply R&D to the manufacturing process. Too often we're exporting only knowledge, for other nations to show a profit.

Were you even here at that period, Tosh?

I have been in manufacturing/engineering since 1978, I started my own company( next to Ravenscraig) in 1983 with a customer base consisting mostly of nationalised or former nationalised companies. My competitors had by this time become very rich from raping these incompetent and corrupt industries for decades.
I am not exagerating when I say the employees and the unions ran nationalised companies to suit themselves, under atrocious and weak management.
But for sheer incompetence and wastage you will never beat the MoD, they do not know nor care what they are buying or paying. In 1989 I quoted £2167 for some runbber o-rings and they ordered £2167, but we accidently invoiced £21670, and they paid it !!! I sent the woman who had made the typo error to Las Vegas with her husband, all expenses paid. I jest not.

Britain is relatively successful in some areas of advanced manufacturing, such as aerospace and pharmaceuticals, but the way forward must be an alliance of the Universities and Engineers to apply R&D to the manufacturing process. Too often we're exporting only knowledge, for other nations to show a profit..

Manufacturing is all about computers and robotics, one skilled man can supervise a line of semi-skilled men watching a computer make stuff.
Its not going to be easy or cheap to increase our manufacturing/service exports by 6%, but we have to try and balance our economy.

I fear for a lot of our young people, they are not used to hard times.

Have a read of this Ivan...dunno if you spotted it or not last night on twitter. I don't usually agree with anything that comes out of a tories gob, but this fella is spot on!

Thanks Adele, but I used that article on this forum on Sunday:-
https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t646-keynes-friedman-and-the-paradox-of-thrift-who-is-right

Can't find it anywhere Adele, it must have been deleted.

tlttf. LOL. Your ‘deleted’ message is on this very thread – on page 15! I have a relative who works for Specsavers, would you like her to make you an appointment?


On the next occasion that you can’t find something because of your own stupidity or incompetence, send a message to one of the staff. Threads are not the place to make complaints or false allegations. We delete very few posts on this site (although we certainly remove threads praising racists, as you know from experience), but it does say this very clearly at the top of the home page:-
"Please note that threads may be moved to more appropriate boards and similar threads will be merged."

As to your platitudes about ‘free speech’, take them to Conservative Home and ask there why anything that isn’t sympathetic to their rabid point of view is zapped on sight.