Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

First topic message reminder :

Do Labour go hunting for the electorate who voted Blair into power 3 times and risk the wrath of the Unions, or side with the core Labour party supporters and the Unions at a risk of being unable to get back the voters who deserted them in the last election?
 

The scale of the rift between Labour and the unions over Ed Miliband's decision to embrace austerity measures has been made clear as a senior leader warned of long-term implications over the "most serious mistake" the party could have made.
Unions affiliated to Labour have been fuming since shadow chancellor Ed Balls told a conference at the weekend that he would not reverse the Government's planned 1% public sector pay cap, which affects millions of workers.
Unite leader Len McCluskey warned that Mr Miliband was setting Labour on course for electoral "disaster" and undermining his own leadership by accepting Government cuts and the cap on public sector pay.
Mr Miliband hit back against his union critics, insisting that Mr McCluskey was "wrong" to attack his decision to embrace austerity measures.
It has emerged that the leader of the GMB has written to the union's senior officials saying that the speech by Ed Balls may have a "profound impact" on its relationship with the Labour Party.
General secretary Paul Kenny said in the message: "I have spoken to Ed Milliband and Ed Balls to ensure they were aware of how wrong I think the policy they are now following is. It is now time for careful consideration and thought before the wider discussions begin on the long-term implications this new stance by the party has on GMB affiliation.
"It will be a fundamental requirement that the CEC (executive) and Congress determine our way forward after proper debate. I will update everyone as events unfold but I have to say this is the most serious mistake they could have made and the Tories must be rubbing their hands with glee." The GMB declined to comment on the message but confirmed it had been sent.
Mr McCluskey said in an article in The Guardian: "Ed Balls' sudden weekend embrace of austerity and the Government's public sector pay squeeze represents a victory for discredited Blairism at the expense of the party's core supporters. It also challenges the whole course Ed Miliband has set for the party, and perhaps his leadership itself."
Mr Miliband responded in a statement: "Len McCluskey is entitled to his views but he is wrong. I am changing the Labour Party so we can deliver fairness even when there is less money around and that requires tough decisions."

2010 was only the second time since 1929 (the other occasion was in 1974) that our ‘first past the post’ voting system has produced a hung parliament. What makes anyone think it will happen again in the near future? The bookies seem to think the most likely outcome in 2015 is a majority Labour government, and UK Polling Report is currently predicting that that majority will be 110 over all other parties:-

http://www.oddschecker.com/politics-and-election/next-uk-general-election/most-seats

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/

Where should Labour position itself? In the unlikely event that Labour doesn’t win a majority in 2015, I am sure it will take office as a minority government. I don’t think Labour members would swallow a coalition with the Lib Dems, after they’ve been part of the most right-wing government in modern history and given the Tories virtual free rein. It would be beyond credibility for the Lib Dems to be part of a government seeking to reverse much of what it’s just helped to vote into law, and I can’t imagine that over-promoted dipstick Danny Alexander saying “It’s all the fault of the Tories” in every interview he gets. As to Labour forming a coalition with UKIP, there’s more chance of hell freezing over.

Cameron is running scared of UKIP peeling off votes from the very large lunatic fringe of his party. That accounts for the noises he’s been making, previously about the EU and now about immigration. UKIP will probably do very well in the elections to the EU Parliament next year, just as it did in 2009. Yet in 2010, UKIP managed just 3% of the votes and it’s unlikely to win any seats at all in the 2015 general election. I suppose if it can create a ‘pocket’ of support somewhere, as the Green Party did in Brighton, it might win the odd seat, but it won’t be figuring in any coalitions.

An election campaign will surely focus the minds of the voters on the only real choice available – do they want more of this drift into corporate fascism from Cameron’s ideologically-driven, lying bunch of incompetent spivs, or do they want Labour to try to repair the damage that’s been done to this country since 2010?

David Miliband's election campaign has to convince Businesspeople that Socialist principles will not affect their profit bottom-line. Tory dogma aims to provide a compliant workforce which can be hired-and-fired at will, unprotected by H & S regulation, and not entitled to expensive luxuries like a living wage, holidays or maternity leave.

blueturando wrote:

That is easy astradt1, any party that puts more money in the pockets of the effing wealthy that sells off things that do not belong to them so "ROGUES & VAGABONDS" is the ideal new name for the Conservetivepileof shit party

Please explain this one Red. You are so fixated with hating the tories you don't even know the facts...and when I point them out to you as I'm about to, you will just ignore them......Did your mummy tell you to vote Labour

Fact 1. The gap between rich and poor grew much wider under the last Labour Government

Fact 2. The top rate of Tax under the last Labour government was 40%....5% lower than the new rate under the coalition

Fact 3. The rich pay a higher proportion of the tax in take now than at any time under the last Labour government

Looking at the facts its easy to see that Labour are the party for the rich, but I know you don't deal in FACTS

Truth 1) It was my grandfather that explained the differences between the Labour party and the Conserveapileofshit party, and he has been proved CORRECT every time we get a CONS gov't

Truth 2) The gap between rich and poor with this Conserveapileofshit gov't will be the BIGGEST GAP ever in electoral history.

Trurh 3) When ever the Conserveapileofshit party are in power the rich & wealthy NEVER pay there fair share that is why the rich vote Tory, as proof just take a look at the Rich Companies that are avoiding there FAIR SHARE of tax by using shonky accountants.

Take a good hard look at the REAL FACTS who funds the Tories and stop using "FAIRY TALES", your lot normally say its the Unions that fund the Labour party make up your mind if you have one. Now lets look at who funds the Tory party remember the dinners of £250,000 held at No10 or Chequers by the biggest Con-Man of all Cameron plus the City of London and the hedge fund managers not forgetting the big business men that keep there money in OFF-SHORE accounts Beecroft and Ashcroft, have you forgot the last two budgets by Diddy Giddy nothing for the working man/women BUT PLENTY FOR THE RICH & WEALTHY

Now you answer your own question and deal with TRUTH if you can, who is the party for the rich???

blueturando. It’s tiresome enough listening to Cameron’s only defence of his tax cut for millionaires without you repeating it like a parrot. Nobody has denied that the top rate of income tax was 40% throughout the thirteen Labour years, but just stating that bald fact hides the full story, which no doubt suits your agenda.

Labour presided over the longest period of uninterrupted economic growth in our history. Blair and Mandelson believed that there was no need to increase taxes on our so-called ‘wealth creators’ (who, as it turned out, all but destroyed the country), although they did have to pay a little more national insurance after 2001. What Labour did was to cut the standard rate of income tax from 23% to 20%, its lowest level since the 1930s. What Labour didn’t do was to reduce the top rate of income tax below 40%, as William Hague was advocating in the 2001 election, a move which would have created more inequality.

That was all pre-credit crunch. When Brown and Darling responded to that crisis with stimulus measures such as a temporary VAT cut, they also decided that the rich should be asked to pay a top rate of income tax of 50%. Despite Cameron’s lies, that measure brought in about £2.7 billion a year, most of which would otherwise have been saved, in many instances in offshore accounts. If you want a tax cut to do any good, give it to the poor, because they will, out of necessity, spend any extra money they receive and in that way help to stimulate the economy.

The richest 1% do pay 23% more tax than they did in 1997. That’s because they ‘earn’ (or rather ‘receive’) 60% more. Try reading some of Steve Walker’s excellent research on this topic, even if it doesn’t pander to your prejudices:-
https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t740-yes-the-top-1-pay-27-of-tax-no-they-re-not-paying-their-share

Why the imminent tax cut for the better off is an obscenity is because it’s happening at the very same time that some of the poorest people in the country are losing income. The benefit cap, the loss of the higher personal allowance for new pensioners (‘granny tax’), universal credit (which could make 2.8 million people worse off), the bedroom tax and the council tax benefit cut are all about to kick in:-
http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/why-you-ll-be-more-broke-next-month--151600586.html

It can be argued that the last government didn’t do enough to prevent the growth in inequality, but this government, led by the party which you support, is deliberately creating it. So please don’t waste your time pretending that you care about inequality, otherwise people might well conclude that you’re a hypocrite.

It's easy to understand why The Rich support the Tory Party, because they have common aims, but what attracts the Working Class to vote Tory when it is analogous to a Turkey voting for Christmas?

“How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? That's the whole art of Tory politics.” (Aneurin Bevan).

oftenwrong wrote:It's easy to understand why The Rich support the Tory Party, because they have common aims, but what attracts the Working Class to vote Tory when it is analogous to a Turkey voting for Christmas?

The only reason I can think of for the working class voting Tory OW, Cameron told massive LIES to the public like I will reform the Conseretivpileofshit party.

I think some members of the working class imagine, if they vote Tory, they can have a seat at the table, rather than being the dinner

blueturando wrote:Youre right Red, Ivan is wasting his time...wasting his time making it up as he goes along. Even Labour MPs admit the gap between rich and poor grew wider during the last administration (see any question time or daily politics show) and rolling out one sided and incorrect statistics from the left will not change that....well maybe in your deluded minds it will, but like religous people you believe want to WANT to believe...not the facts

Do you think all those over the top banker bonuses started in 2010? Do you think the rich were paying more tax under Labour at 40% than they will under the coalition at 45%? Do the maths

So where should Labour position itself, well I cant see them placing themselves anywhere close to the left side as you and Ivan would want, so maybe you should find another party to vote for....unless you have no principles and want to vote in a party for the rich...again!

There you go again using your Tory Ideology to suit your thinking, what Ivan was doing was wasting his time on YOU you're just like your party twisting everything to suit the Tory Mantra. By the time of May 2015 the Tory party will have achieved several firsts NONE TO THEIR ADVANTAGE 1) The biggest ever GAP between rich & poor, 2) The worst ever Chancellor in the life of Politics, 3) The First ever party to only have ONE TERM FIRM now that is something to celebrate is it not blue. I take it you will be drowning your SORROWS with a bottle of CHAMPERS

I see you still cannot address simple questions put to you Red...No surprise really, thats why I take everything you say with a pinch of salt

Beware of the "rush"-- you might just get trampled on.

blueturando wrote:I see you still cannot address simple questions put to you Red...No surprise really, thats why I take everything you say with a pinch of salt

The only reason we do not agree blue I deal in TRUTH & FACTS as Ivan points out to you on a regular basis, whereas you deal in Tory Ideology and Spin so if you are waitiung for me to spout the Tory Mantra you will wait UNTIL HELL FREEZES OVER I will never agree with what the Conservetapileofshit party is doing to the UK and after Monday 1st April nor will the ENTIRE UK

bobby wrote:Welcome back, Mel, Good to see you.

I second that Mel

Thank you bobby and Red. I see nothing changes here with the two Musketeers, still desperate to live in hopeless hope that their Tory country destroyers may still have a chance of being re-elected.
Let them dream on if it makes them happy for a few more years.

Sad to lose Astra, a good old friend.

Growth is the last thing on Tory minds. The current situation in this country suits their stategy to transfer wealth from the poor and indeed the middle classes to their own wealthy tax avoiding tribe.

Like the Leopard I suppose.

Some Tory posts are so laughable they don't even deserve deleting IMO.

A good wisecrack on BBC Radio Question Time ....

David Miliband must be the first Politician to resign giving as his reason that he wanted to spend less time with the family.

Some Tory posts are so laughable they don't even deserve deleting IMO.

Welcome back, Mel, and I understand what you’re saying. However, when a Tory troll - with a history of re-posting libel and refusing to retract it (not to mention a track record of breaking most of the rules of this forum, especially regarding copyright) - posts a pack of lies purporting to come from David Miliband about his brother, it has to be deleted in the interests of the future of this forum.

Understood Ivan as I am fully aware of the rules laid down by he forum providers which have to be adhered to otherwise they could close Cutting Edge at a stroke.
There are the idiots of course who either do not understand the concequences of their stupid disregard of the rules that you are responsible to uphold, or on the other hand they may well be ignorant fools.

Whichever it is they use political drivel and exploitation of your patience and the forum rules to somehow try to rather pathetically try to defend a Tory sinking ship of tyrants.

blue wrote
Youre right Red, Ivan is wasting his time...wasting his time making it up as he goes along. Even Labour MPs admit the gap between rich and poor grew wider during the last administration.

Ivan is not wasting his time at all blue. The fact is that under the last administration the rich became richer and the poor became less poor and the middle classes prospered. Yes there was still a divide but nothing so severe as it is today where the rich have become even richer the poor poorer and the middle classes have also been hit.
The economic situation created by the global banking crisis paved the way for Tories to make up for lost time to implement their idelogy to create cheap labour and to take from all but the rich who pay little taxes and are allowed to do so regardless of Tory rhetoric to address the sitution along with the con that they can curb immigration. All lies and destruction of the life of the ordinary man in the street, together with the young the sick and the disabled.

Nazi ideals spring to mind.

Ivan, ok you deleted a spoof thread, shame you didn't read it first and/or even let others read it. It might have put a smile on your face. Once again nothing libellous was in it, nothing to apologise for (where has humour gone).

Mel nice to see you back, redflag has been trying to hold your place for you, but hey, there is only one Mel.

Mel wrote:

blue wrote
Youre right Red, Ivan is wasting his time...wasting his time making it up as he goes along. Even Labour MPs admit the gap between rich and poor grew wider during the last administration.

Ivan is not wasting his time at all blue. The fact is that under the last administration the rich became richer and the poor became less poor and the middle classes prospered. Yes there was still a divide but nothing so severe as it is today where the rich have become even richer the poor poorer and the middle classes have also been hit.
The economic situation created by the global banking crisis paved the way for Tories to make up for lost time to implement their idelogy to create cheap labour and to take from all but the rich who pay little taxes and are allowed to do so regardless of Tory rhetoric to address the sitution along with the con that they can curb immigration. All lies and destruction of the life of the ordinary man in the street, together with the young the sick and the disabled.

Nazi ideals spring to mind.

Thank you Mel for explaining it a lot better than myself, what is the use of Ivan giving facts and figures when blue lets in go in one ear and it comes out different mixed up with Tory Ideology out of the other. There is going to be a shock for the Tory voters and supporters come 2015 when AT LAST THE TRUTH WILL OUT and we will know the true facts and figures about the gap between the rich and the poor and just how much of the deficit HAS been paid down.

The Tories before the election were fully aware of that should they get in to power they would not last a full term in office because their ability to get the nation back on track would not be possible to do so whilst doing their dirty work to administer their cruel ideology. Hence they gave themselves a secured 5yr term.
Therefore, they have produced a scorched earth policy using the results of the global crisis as a cover not only to transfer wealth from bottom to top, as I have explained before, but to undo many of the safeguards and policies put in place by the last administration for the benefit of the majority and making those policies irriversible.

The Lib Dems have just sat by and watched it all happen, being satisfied to be in some sort of power situation they never expected to be in before the election.

Presumably it can now be said that "New Labour" has been despatched to a suitable Care Home, but there is an urgent need to inform the electorate exactly where One-Nation Labour intends to fight the Tories at the next election.

The preoccupations are; The Economy; Immigration; NHS independence, Education and The Future of the Welfare State.

On the latter point, today's Sunday Times records Tory claims to have uncovered statistical evidence that a survey caused thousands of benefits claimants to withdraw their applications. What the Sunday Times couldn't find room to say was that it was an exercise survey in 2008 carried out by the previous administration.

Typical tory trick, find figures from any where and use them to complete the Tory IDEOLOGY SCUMBAGS.

If this is the case, someone from the Labour Party should be making political gain out of this. I suppose the press wouldn't want to entertain it as they run scared of their Tory owners.

I doubt if OW has got it wrong, he rarely does, although I can't find confirmation on Google.

Mel wrote:-
I doubt if OW has got it wrong, he rarely does, although I can't find confirmation on Google.

He doesn't get it wrong! 878,300 chose not to be checked for their fitness to work under tests brought in when the benefit was replaced by Employment Support Allowance in 2008:-

http://news.uk.msn.com/nearly-900000-drop-benefit-claims-1

If you find that a new bottle of wine appears miraculously outside your room every day - who are you going to complain to? The Queen?

Does anyone have a link to the actual 2008 statistics? I'm unable to find it.

https://www.gov.uk/employment-support-allowance/overview

You could start HERE, Steve.

Or HERE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employment_Support_Allowance

Alternatively, for the sleepless: http://mylegal.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=frontline&action=print&thread=405

Though a five-year delay in producing a government report shouldn't be regarded as unusual.

bobby wrote:Sorry ow, youve lost me, but I must admit that aint too difficult.

err, I think what I meant to say, bobby, was "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth." If money appears as if by magic, don't ask questions.

One more source for the Incapacity Benefit changes in 2008:



http://www.gla.ac.uk/media/media_140189_en.pdf

OW wrote "Though a five-year delay in producing a government report shouldn't be regarded as unusual."

The question is, when and how are the masses ever going to know the truth about this? Yet another Tory con and someone within the Labour Party should be making every effort to expose this.

It never ceases to amaze me why the Labour Party seem to allow so many Tory lies togo unchallenged even when the proof of the matter is there to be put forward to the public.

An anxious public is still waiting for the Chilcot Report on Blair's actions in taking Britain into Iraq alongside George W Bush.

http://www.iraqinquiry.org.uk/

Mel said: It never ceases to amaze me why the Labour Party seem to allow so many Tory lies to go unchallenged even when the proof of the matter is there to be put forward to the public.

Dead right Mel, I have been saying that Labour need to be seen to be fighting everything the Tory led Coalition does. One response I got was that Ed Miliband needs to keep his powder dry and not show his policies for Government theft. And of course that point is quite right, but we do need Ed Miliband and co to fight every misdeed perpetrated by the worst Government in My Lifetime. If the Tories (including their partners in crime) do something wrong, no matter how minor, Labour should be shouting it from the rooftops, the lying scumbags should not be given breathing space.

I am now wondering though, if Ed Miliband has purposely stood back to a degree allowing the welfare cuts and NHS privatisation to take hold, then the public will see exactly what they are all about, and hopefully turn against them in greater numbers, I certainly hope I am wrong in my thinking, as I would hate it that Ed Miliband would play politics that way with peoples lives.

Although I will most certainly be voting Labour in the next GE whenever that might be, but I have with held my Labour Party membership renewal and donation, until they show me they are prepared to do what the majority of their supporters want, and that I think is to play the leading role in the fight for Governance and to convince the party faithful that they will reverse as much if not all of the Tory ideology led policies as I possible. I know they won’t be able to change much immediately but the poor, sick and elderly need to know that something will happen to help them with a Labour Government under Ed Miliband as soon as it is possible, and as it seems Herr Cameron and co have been lying all along about the state of our nation, perhaps the wait may not be as long as we would be led to believe.

The times for being gentlemen are over, now Labour need to go for the Bollocks, as they say if you have your opponents bollocks firmly in you hand, his body is sure to follow you.

Mel wrote:OW wrote "Though a five-year delay in producing a government report shouldn't be regarded as unusual."

The question is, when and how are the masses ever going to know the truth about this? Yet another Tory con and someone within the Labour Party should be making every effort to expose this.

It never ceases to amaze me why the Labour Party seem to allow so many Tory lies togo unchallenged even when the proof of the matter is there to be put forward to the public.

You're spot on Mel what the heck is up with the Labour party, they should be jumping up and down on these Tory policies, I have just sat and watched Diddy Giddy give his speech in Kent even me as of average intelligence could see the HOLES in what he had to say about the benefit cuts LIES LIES and more LIES with Tory IDEOLOGY +SPIN mixed in. :bom:

Hello bobby and Red,

My 18yr old daughter has I am proud to say managed to get an offer from Kings College in London to study law. Whilst on the train to her boyfriend who lives in Leeds, who should enter her carriage but Ed and his entourage. Ed sat next to my girl for half an hour and she told him she is also studying politics, philosophy, psychology. She explained that her father (that is me) is an avid Labour supporter.
He (Ed) said "let me speak with him on the mobile" (me). We had a long chat. He was charming. However I explained that charm alone is not enough and action is required. He said that the Tories were "cooking their own goose" and "UKIP will finish them off".
He went on to say that people have short memories and he is saving all his prolific amount of flak for nearer the next election so that it compounds upon self destruction that the Coalition is creating for themselves day by day.

My reply was "scorched earth" and he agreed that a lot of "nasties" have been created "that will be difficult to undo".

I was mildly impressed and wished him luck for all our sakes. My daughter said he was very positive and articulate. Fingers crossed !!!!

Interesting indeed.