Do the Tories really view the majority of us as 'plebs'?

by sickchip Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:04 pm

First topic message reminder :

In recent times Tories have been branded as being arrogant posh boys out of their depth. Andrew Mitchell's recent confrontation with a policeman, and the comments he allegedly made, seem to bear this out - despite Cameron's desperate attempts to rescue the Tories image from being tarnished by the occasion.

Their policies, and particularly those they target/punish via cutbacks, seem to bear the notion of class elitism out. They persistently punish the poor, and most vulnerable, with no regard for the hardship and impossible circumstances they place them in - on the other hand they continue rewarding the rich with ever more opportunities to avoid tax, get richer, etc.

It is the Tories who are responsible for waging a 'class war'.

Mitchell's outburst should not be dismissed as a 'fit of pique', temper, etc.......it was the mask slipping to reveal the odious nature of those currently governing us.

by Mel Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:06 am

Short for plebian, derived from the period of the Ancient Romans. The plebeians were the general body of Roman citizens and those who were privileged were labeled patricians.
Nowadays, a pleb is one associated with those in the lower class. They often lack integrity and sophistication, while many people who consider themselves modern-day patricians often lookdown and mock them.

The operative word here is "lower class". Andrew Mitchell is just one of many Tories who consider themselves better than the majority of people and therefore have a nasty trait of looking down upon them.

The old Tory saying has remained-- "he/she is not one of us"

by bobby Fri Sep 28, 2012 12:23 pm

I believe the class system has become a frame of mind. It had more meaning back when you where born into a certain class and had very little chance of getting yourself above your station. Now thanks to Labour Governments over the years the plebs can in fact rise higher than the patricians. I am a good example, I am the Son of a Soldier/Milkman/Bus driver (before any smut, all one Man), yet am now in the position where I only work when I want to, I have 3 established businesses and 1 fledgling business, I have to have someone else to run them on a day to day basis due to my being away from them for large periods of time, so what class am I. I have always referred to myself as Working Class, but my existing wealth is far above many of those who’s job it is to run this Country. Some years ago a Friend of mine had the then Earle of Ypres (can't remember what number he was) as a registered director of his company, the old Earle didn’t do any work, but he looked very impressive on the letter heads, he of course received reimbursement for the use of his name/title and would only make an appearance (in his frayed blue pin stripe suit) if passing, at that time I was earning good money and was in a better financial position than the Earle, so where would that put both him and me in the class system. He would never think of himself as anything other than Upper Class and I would always and still do refer to myself as Working Class.
So weather you actually do physical work or not doesn’t differentiate the classes, so It is a left over from bygone years and has become a Wall for all to hide behind for their own benefit and advancement or to use as a stick to beat up on lesser mortals. Look at plebs like Branson, Sugar, and those on Dragons Den, would their present positions have been possible in the 19^th Century.

So my belief is that the class system is a frame of mind.

by **astradt1** Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:37 pm

So my belief is that the class system is a frame of mind.

I agree with you Bobby but would like to add "It's also where your heart is"

As some may have gathered I am a Nurse by profession and have been for more years than I sometimes care to remember, like you I came from a working class background, Father a farm labourer and then a glue factory leather sorter, Mother a clothing factory worker and a hospital laundry worker..
I was schooled in a secondary modern school and achieved two grade 1's CSE's before joining the Army and starting my nurse training.....

By the time I retired from the NHS I had achieved the post of Ward Manager and much to my surprise was in the 40% tax bracket...I have never moaned about the level of tax I paid, having always believed that if you earn the big money, you pay the big tax and I was/am comfortable with the fact that I was/am contributing my fair share, paying back some of what had been given to me when I was a child (Health, Education etc), this I am sure would horrify those who feel whats theirs is theirs and the rest of the country can go to hell in a hand cart.......

Like you, Bobby, I have always and always will class myself as working class.....

Back on thread, not much has been said about Mitchell's parting words to the Police officer..." You haven't heard the last of this"...Which in my opinion may be why the officer made sure that the incident was so fully recorded to protect his/her own back....

Any opinions on this?

by sickchip Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:01 pm

I believe the class system has become a frame of mind

I respectfully disagree, bobby.

There was a period post war, 50's 60's 70's, when social mobility, and the chances to make something of oneself reached a peak; and this is bore out when examining economic data from that period - where we can see wealth was redistributed from the top to the bottom (1949 - 1979: the share of income going to the top 0.1% of earners decreased from 3.5% to 1.3%). From '79 to 2000 that trend was reversed (by 2000 the top 0.1% saw their share had increased to 4.6%). And the trend was similar for the top 10% of earners. Another important stat is that: since '79 the general workforces share of GDP shrunk by 12% up to 2008.....and their share is still shrinking. That money has been redirected/redistributed back into the hands of the few.

We can see that post war we'd begun to move in the right direction, and because of the high quality of affordable education offered to all, the strength of unions, reasonably priced property than a working class person certainly did have scope to improve his lot.

Since '79 (co-incidentally Thatcher's emergence) those doors have gradually been closed again.......to the point where we have the lowest levels of social mobility of any developed nation. The class system is not a frame of mind - it is a political design to meet the requirements of the few. Indeed - aside from upper/middle/working classes we now also have an underclass.

If today university education were free, and the house price to wage ratio was the same as it was in the 60's then I'm sure we'd see far more people realising their potential - as they did then. The powers that be appear to have a different agenda and different priorities.

Maybe after that post war period they decided the 'plebs' were getting a little too close for comfort, and have decided to knock them a few rungs back down the ladder - of course encouraging/supporting the rise of unfettered neo-liberal capitilism helps them achieve this.

It is why we need a Labour government - not a tory, lib-dem, or new labour government - but a Labour government.

by bobby Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:31 pm

Hello Astradt. Yes you are absolutely correct when you say "It's also where your heart is"

"I think Mitchell now wishes he hadn't said many things including You haven't heard the last of this". The man has got to be one of the biggest idiots on the planet if he thinks we lower class people will simply say "he has appologised, so everything is now fine. When you fire off a round, nothing can stop it reaching what its fired at, so his so called appology means bugger all other than a hope he will get away with his offence, he just shouldn't have behaved as he did in the first place.

If we all go by the Tory rules, no one ever needs to lose a job or go to jail, as a simple appology will suffice to get yourself off the hook, but we all know the truth, a Tory appology is totally sincere whereas a plebs appology means nothing.

by **astradt1** Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:07 pm

I wonder how many of those speaking from the podium at the Tory party conference will include the statement..."I am a pleb and proud of it", as a way of taking the heat out of the Mitchell story....

We have already had some Lib Dems doing it...

by oftenwrong Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:36 pm

One of the most effective instruments of Social Mobility has been abandoned by all political parties - The Grammar School. Five years of intensive preparatory studying, all directed towards getting a University education, enabled the children of quite ordinary working-class folk to join the professional classes. Provided they could pass the 11-plus exam.

Failing that aptitude- test at the age of eleven consigned others to the Secondary Modern school which taught artisan skills, because there is always work for skilled hands.

Educationalists lost their way when they tried to introduce University places for the mediocre, and we see the result in high drop-out rates and "Graduates" who can't interest any employer in giving them a job on the Graduate pay-scale.

The current system favours the children of wealthy parents. How does that enable social mobility?

by boatlady Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:20 pm

As the only child of a single parent, the only way I was ever going to access any kind of higher education was through a grant which enabled me to go to University - where I got a degree, which probably could have been better had I worked harder; however, later in my life, I was able to make a reasonable contribution as a Mental Health social worker.
In today's society, there's no way I could have thought of going beyond GCSE, given my family circumstances - I think I'd have been a very bad shop assistant or similar, but I was a good Mental Health social worker, and was aware that I owed the opportunity to my assisted access to educational opportunities above my 'station', and I venture to suppose that because of my background I was able to give a better service.
I remain working class, in that I live on what I have been able to earn by my own efforts, and I am delighted to be able to pay in to a system which should offer the same benefits to other young people - seeing the Welfare State sold off to the highest bidder is breaking my heart.
It's been my experience (and I know I'm not as clever as the rest of you) that under a Labour government there is investment in education and other social services which enables social mobility like mine, while under a Conservative government such investment is stopped and kids like I was are deprived of the opportunity to rise above their circumstances.

by Adele Carlyon Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:51 pm

Hear Hear Boat lady! I agree totally with what you say! When this lot got back in I felt sick to the pit of my stomach, just like I did when they were in last time. Labour gave me and my family a peg up, where as this lot just kick people like me in the teeth, then walk off and smirk about it! Nice to meet you btw!

And I totally agree with your post too Sickchip!

by sickchip Sat Sep 29, 2012 1:34 am

boatlady,

Well said!

...and you too Adele, hear hear

by Redflag Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:37 am

astradt1 wrote:I wonder how many of those speaking from the podium at the Tory party conference will include the statement..."I am a pleb and proud of it", as a way of taking the heat out of the Mitchell story....

We have already had some Lib Dems doing it...

I seen that too astradt1, the L/Ds defending Thrasher Mitchell just like they defended Hunt, but you can bet a pound to a penny the L/Ds will be the butt of the majority of the Tory jokes at there conference next week because they know what we know the L/Ds will side with all the bills cutting our services just to stay in POWER.

by boatlady Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:00 am

Adele and Redflag, it's nice to know you agree with me.
Sometimes, I think when talking about politics (and other important topics) the blame game and point scoring come to seem so much more important than achieving a thoughtful understanding and a real consensus that can lead to maybe working out what we can individually and collectively do to change things (which may be very little, but lots of small right actions will surely, in the end, have a cumulative effect in cancelling out the large wrong actions we continually observe).
The actions of the present load of idiots and knaves in power are of course very frustrating and at the same time diverting, but what they're peddling is essentially the politics of spite and envy, bullying and contempt - they continually expose themselves as puerile and clueless while alienating us ordinary people on whose votes they depend. By playing the blame game and valuing cleverness and ideology over simple truth we lose the chance to address the real abuses of power taking place everyday.
I don't know who it was said 'better to light a single candle than to curse the dark', but I think the meaning was that it's better to recognise, and act upon one simple truth than to try to engage in lots of ultimately useless polemic.
I am grateful to those, cleverer souls than me, who help me to be aware of the detail of how things are being changed, and help me to understand how I can challenge what I don't agree with and light my own little candle.
Sorry if I've gone off topic, but I got into a bit of a flow there.

by Redflag Sun Sep 30, 2012 8:56 am

boatlady wrote:Adele and Redflag, it's nice to know you agree with me.
Sometimes, I think when talking about politics (and other important topics) the blame game and point scoring come to seem so much more important than achieving a thoughtful understanding and a real consensus that can lead to maybe working out what we can individually and collectively do to change things (which may be very little, but lots of small right actions will surely, in the end, have a cumulative effect in cancelling out the large wrong actions we continually observe).
The actions of the present load of idiots and knaves in power are of course very frustrating and at the same time diverting, but what they're peddling is essentially the politics of spite and envy, bullying and contempt - they continually expose themselves as puerile and clueless while alienating us ordinary people on whose votes they depend. By playing the blame game and valuing cleverness and ideology over simple truth we lose the chance to address the real abuses of power taking place everyday.
I don't know who it was said 'better to light a single candle than to curse the dark', but I think the meaning was that it's better to recognise, and act upon one simple truth than to try to engage in lots of ultimately useless polemic.
I am grateful to those, cleverer souls than me, who help me to be aware of the detail of how things are being changed, and help me to understand how I can challenge what I don't agree with and light my own little candle.
Sorry if I've gone off topic, but I got into a bit of a flow there.

Great post boatlady. I can understand where your coming from and that is the right place, I sometimes get so angry and upset at what this shower of dick heads are doing because I live in Scotland and Salmond is hoping that us Scots will get so fed up with the Tory incompetence that we will vote yes in the upcoming referendum and break away from the UK and that is not the right reason to make a judgement call on. But back to topic its the Tories that created the class system if your parents have not paid to send you to Eton Oxford or Cambridge you're a pleb which really means 10% of the UK are the better folk and the other 90% are just PLEBS fit for nothing that is what the entire Tory party think so why should us mere PLEBS play along with their Ideology its about time we did something about it, maybe civil disobedience by ALL is the right answer that is coming from the Unions. cheers

by oftenwrong Sun Sep 30, 2012 11:51 am

"....fed up with the Tory incompetence...."

Indeed Red, "fed-up" is right, but incompetence? Not from their viewpoint perhaps. The Thatcher doctrine has been brought forward and is almost complete now. A weakened NHS, strengthened privatisation and a cowed workforce must all count as victories among Tory supporters, along with the reinforcement of Toffs' natural right-to-rule.

by **Ivan** Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:19 pm

blueturando wrote:-
Surely anyone that works is 'WORKING CLASS'?

Oftenwrong wrote:-
One of the most effective instruments of Social Mobility has been abandoned by all political parties - The Grammar School.

It’s an old Tory line to try to pretend that the class system no longer exists in this country. Perhaps the last honest Tory was Disraeli, when he wrote about our ‘two nations’ in a novel published in 1845. We certainly don’t live in a meritocracy, where any one of us can become head of state, and where wealth, privilege and the school you went to aren’t important. Social mobility has regressed with the trebling of university fees and the abolition of the education maintenance allowance by our current government. Above all, class has become a major issue again because Cameron, whose comfort zone is to be surrounded by Old Etonians and Bullingdon Club misfits, has made it so.

I know what ‘working class’ means, though its difficult to describe such an amorphous concept. One of the routes I use when exercising my dog involves a walk along by a small river and into a leafy estate of 4 and 5 bedroom detached houses with double garages. Ten minutes later, I cross a main road into a council estate. That’s where working class people live, and the contrast couldn’t be more striking.

Working class to me means living in rented property or maybe owning a terraced house, having a low-paid or blue-collar job and in short, getting a rough deal. Thanks to Thatcher’s decimation of the UK in the 1980s, now being completed by Cameron, we also have an ‘underclass’, where families in places such as what were once Welsh mining valleys have been unable to get work for generations.

Sociologists probably define class as a set of values, and as we’re all unique, many of us will have some values which are seen as straddling both the middle and working class. For example, it’s supposed to be working class to smoke and drink beer, middle class to drink wine and not to smoke, but about 15% of people who identify themselves as middle class do smoke. However, it’s in education where class is cemented into our attitudes at an early age.

Back in the 1950s – which is where Gove would like to take us – we had the public schools for the upper class, grammar schools for the middle class and secondary modern (and a few technical) schools for the working class. True, a few working class children made it to the grammar schools on the basis of a good result in one test at the age of eleven, but I doubt if that many succeeded when they got there. For a start, they were unlikely to have the same environment at home for studying as middle class children in detached houses.

Telling 80% of children at the age of eleven that they’re failures doesn’t sound like a recipe for either good personal development or social mobility. Far better to send all children to a similar school with setting for each subject, which is far more flexible than putting children in separate schools and far more sensible than mixed ability teaching. What we really need is the abolition of all private schools so that we can have real ‘comprehensive’ schools, where the children of ‘toffs’ learn side-by-side with the children of ‘plebs’ and don’t get completely out of touch like Cameron and his vile cronies.

by Redflag Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:20 pm

oftenwrong wrote:"....fed up with the Tory incompetence...."

Indeed Red, "fed-up" is right, but incompetence? Not from their viewpoint perhaps. The Thatcher doctrine has been brought forward and is almost complete now. A weakened NHS, strengthened privatisation and a cowed workforce must all count as victories among Tory supporters, along with the reinforcement of Toffs' natural right-to-rule.

I have always known that OW, Scam..er..ons plan was always where the Maggot left off he would finish it and make sure that the UK is taken back too the times of Charles Dickens where us PLEBS HAVE to doff our caps or tug our four locks to the top 10% of the population, then and only then will Scam..er..on and his shower of dick heads be really happy and if you look at the laws that have been brought in they speak volumes, also in April 2013 when the other 80% of the cuts come to fruition heaven help the workers and the forced Unemployed (public sector workers) when they are enacted next April.

by Tosh Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:01 pm

Which leads me to wonder just how many friends will you have once they read this. Personally I treat my friends with much more respect

Ahem...bobby.....tap....tap....tap:

My name is not really Tosh and my tax cheating friends do not deserve my respect for cheating tax.

by Redflag Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:50 am

oftenwrong wrote:"....fed up with the Tory incompetence...."

Indeed Red, "fed-up" is right, but incompetence? Not from their viewpoint perhaps. The Thatcher doctrine has been brought forward and is almost complete now. A weakened NHS, strengthened privatisation and a cowed workforce must all count as victories among Tory supporters, along with the reinforcement of Toffs' natural right-to-rule.

Now there total incompetence in the rail franchise has been uncovered and it will cost US the taxpayers another £40 Million how about we make the ones that caused the problem pay to put it right, maybe then they would not work things out on the back of an envelope like every other plan this A**E Hole of a gov't has had. I think its time that the people of the UK had a vote of "NO CONFIDENCE" in this stupid gov't. cheers

by bobby Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:38 am

Tosh said: My name is not really Tosh and my tax cheating friends do not deserve my respect for cheating tax.

I suppose now you will expect us tp believe you are not a Chimp?

You also said:

I have many trade friends in the South and they are the biggest tax cheats in Britain,

Hence my statement.

eee oooo ahahahah, There a bit of chimp for you, I hope the accent is right.

by Tosh Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:58 pm

I have many trade friends in the South and they are the biggest tax cheats in Britain,

Hence my statement.

Your statement has been answered, get over it and move on, its not my fault you say dumb things.

I would have to be a chimp to comprehend your ludicrous attempts to justify your drivel.

Please don't try again, I am losing the will to live.

by Tosh Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:03 pm

Redflag,

The civil service makes mistakes under every government, this suggests the blame lies elsewhere, you are aware civil servants run nationalised industries.

mmm...not good news is it ?

by oftenwrong Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:18 pm

The civil service makes mistakes under every government, this suggests the blame lies elsewhere, you are aware civil servants run nationalised industries.

Shouldn't we, the Public, accept some of the blame - as the actual Employers of such people?

by Tosh Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:36 pm

Shouldn't we, the Public, accept some of the blame - as the actual Employers of such people?.

Only the ones who want civil servants to run businesses, I want businessman to run businesses, don't blame me.

Am I missing something ? I never hear about rail franchise problems in other developed countries, what is wrong with copying good ideas, is it jingoistic pride or what ?

On the bright side I never use trains, I don't like rubbing shoulders with the plebs. Shocked

by oftenwrong Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:41 pm

Heaven must be missing an Angel.

by Redflag Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:42 pm

Tosh wrote:Redflag,

The civil service makes mistakes under every government, this suggests the blame lies elsewhere, you are aware civil servants run nationalised industries.

mmm...not good news is it ?

So why do the ministers not thourghly check the civil servants work before the work leaves the office.

by Tosh Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:04 pm

So why do the ministers not thourghly check the civil servants work before the work leaves the office..

Ministers know less about business than civil servants, they can't even check their expenses.

by Redflag Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:18 pm

Tosh wrote:

So why do the ministers not thourghly check the civil servants work before the work leaves the office..

Ministers know less about business than civil servants, they can't even check their expenses.

You got that right tosh, remember the duck house the moat cleaning ?

by methought Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:02 am

And a £19k chicken house currently being constructed complete with pillars....

by Redflag Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:12 am

Tosh wrote:Redflag,

The civil service makes mistakes under every government, this suggests the blame lies elsewhere, you are aware civil servants run nationalised industries.

mmm...not good news is it ?

So thats how the Maggot gov't explained why they had to sell gas electricity rail and phone, and yet as soon as they where sold onto the private sector they made profit just as the East coast train line is doing now, I have a suggestion for the gov't bring all the privatized from the public sector back into the public hands BUT make sure the civil servants are kept miles away from them it would be worth it to employ a proper team to run them and then any profit would come back to us or the treasury coffers.

by oftenwrong Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:33 am

".... bring all the privatized from the public sector back into the public hands BUT make sure the civil servants are kept miles away from them it would be worth it to employ a proper team to run them and then any profit would come back to us or the treasury coffers."

All of which sounds like the description of "outsourcing" which the Govt. already does with companies like Serco and G4S if you've ever heard of them. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19755212

by Tosh Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:34 pm

Nope, but there are socialists who believe Tories think they are plebs, socialists have self esteem issues..

Who cares what other people think ?

by oftenwrong Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:51 pm

Who cares what other people think ?
Well obviously not an individual who so evidently feels superior to the rest of the human race.

by Redflag Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:03 pm

oftenwrong wrote:

Who cares what other people think ?
Well obviously not an individual who so evidently feels superior to the rest of the human race.

All the Tories are the same OW, they all think they are a cut above the rest of us. lol!

When really they are below us selfish and uncaring and wondering how to screw more money out of us, or how to pay us less than the minimum wage that is why they will not stop the immigrants from coming in because they do not have too pay them the minimum wage, so no difference from the Maggots gov't.

by Tosh Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:30 pm

Well obviously not an individual who so evidently feels superior to the rest of the human race.

The only thing obvious and evident about your post, is your habit of assuming everyone under the sun thinks they are superior to you.

You should get that inferiority complex checked out sage. Very Happy

by Tosh Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:33 pm

they all think they are a cut above the rest of us.

Another psychic with " little man syndrome ", maybe its a virus.

by oftenwrong Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:29 pm

Expressed like a true Plebeian. http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/plebeian

by Tosh Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:47 pm

Expressed like a true Plebeian.

Pleb is as ambiguous and obscure as your posts try too hard to be.

by Redflag Sat Oct 06, 2012 8:58 am

oftenwrong wrote:".... bring all the privatized from the public sector back into the public hands BUT make sure the civil servants are kept miles away from them it would be worth it to employ a proper team to run them and then any profit would come back to us or the treasury coffers."

All of which sounds like the description of "outsourcing" which the Govt. already does with companies like Serco and G4S if you've ever heard of them. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19755212

Sorry OW did not explain that very well, the east coast trains are being run at the moment by the public sector and in the two years that it has been run it has made £170 Million first year and £187 this year (Angela Eagle Labour conference 2012) so why can't they run the west coast the same way making profit for us instead of filling the pockets of the greedy franchises owners, but it does not supprise me that this Tory gov't is helping to fill the pockets of the Tory party friends and donors.

by **Ivan** Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:32 pm

Now that Mitchell has fallen on his sword (albeit a month late), the new Tory Chief Whip has been appointed. Much more in touch with the common man, Old Etonian Sir George Young once described homeless people as "those you step over on the way out of the opera".

by Redflag Sat Oct 20, 2012 8:56 pm

Tosh wrote:
they all think they are a cut above the rest of us.

Another psychic with " little man syndrome ", maybe its a virus.

The only one with the "LITTLE MAN SYNDROME" is all the bloody right wingers the sort of people that call the normal working man/women PLEBS.

by **astradt1** Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:28 pm

With the release of the Mitchellgate Video.......

Is it just me or does anyone else see big differences in the CCTV footage from inside Downing St and that out from out side in Whitehall?

Look closely at that from inside and you will see at least 5 people passing the gates at 'Mitchell is wheeling his bike towards the gate on the right hand side....But on that from outside there is only one person passing....so which bit of footage was taken at another time?

Most of the discussion on TV has been about that from outside?

Strange that the video is released the week that Miller is being looked because of Expenses and veiled threats over Leverson and Dave's party meeting with R Brooks?

by Sponsored content