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So...why is it religions hate each other and atheists?

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Post by Boudica Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:41 pm

First topic message reminder :

Having given the topic some serious consideration, I have no idea why the religious hate each other and the irreligious. And vice versa, of course.

Despite being collective worship coordinator at my secondary school, I am an athiest. Not proudly so, I might add - I just don't have faith in a deity or multiples thereof. Having said that, I have no issue with anyone who does. Harnessed in the right way, it can be an astonishing force for good.

I suspect the umbrella I would fall under is humanist, although I have never chosen a banner for myself. I believe in people: the family and friends around me; my students and colleagues; members of the human race in general.

The thing I object to is the evangelising fraternity who,when I politely reject their view of the universe, choose to label me as ... well, all sort of insulting and unfair nonsense. At this stage, please believe that I find Richard Dawkins as irritating as any ayalloah, church elder or priest.

Ultimately, if your religion fascilitates your ability to be a good, kind and humane person, brilliant. If you can be the same without a god, more power to your elbow.

So why can't we leave each other to get on with it?
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Post by Guest Sun Mar 24, 2013 2:46 am

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Post by Tosh Sun Mar 24, 2013 3:10 am

At least you understand that “who” is not limited to a person and “what” must always be a verb and its attached “stuff.” Elementary school teachers in my town called it “subject and predicate”, but the communications / journalism template makes it so much clearer.

You still have not provided a scholarly article that insists the subject must be a " who " and cannot be a " what ", even if " who "is neutral that still does not prevent the subject being a " what " and the predicate being a " what ".

Any luck yet, sorry about questioning your bare assertions, I like to be precise, something that says " in every case in a complete sentence the subject must be a " who " and cannot be a " what ". I am not looking for absolute proof just some evidence to support your theory.
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Post by snowyflake Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:10 am

At least you understand that “who” is not limited to a person and “what” must always be a verb and its attached “stuff.” Elementary school teachers in my town called it “subject and predicate”, but the communications / journalism template makes it so much clearer.

Sorry, Rock, I don't agree with you. I'm trying to understand you. Who is never some 'thing' in proper english. Who is always a person. By trying to use journalism as your tool to exposit Genesis 1:1 you have limited yourself and thus made 'true' your idea that Genesis 1:1 mirrors the Big Bang. You've only made it 'true' to you though. I'm not convinced. No matter how you spin it you're still slotting Elohim, an entity with intelligence (you believe), into the Who when we don't know. As with any investigation, using one method to extrapolate the truth of something and discounting all other methods (or sources) isn't proper journalism.

For the sake of brevity, let's assume that God/Elohim are the same thing since Elohim has been translated as such in the bible. I don't think bronze age desert nomads made the distinction. Or is Elohim a different God to Jehovah?

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Post by Tosh Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:54 am

Okie Dokie, I have started a fresh spread sheet and cancelled my brass rubbing class, I am determined to bring this 3 year old baby home before it becomes an Olympic sport.

The question boils down to this, are both Elohim and the Big Bang comparable subject nouns and do both whos share a similar identity and meaning ?

The answer is yes grammatically but no definitively, the neutrality of who involves an ambiguity that affects the definition of the Big Bang, unless Texas considers Elohim an inanimate immeasurable power. Precision demands further extrapolation, we do comprehend the Big Bang is an inanimate something and we do comprehend Elohim is animate. We also know inanimate somethings by definition are non-sentient and it is self evident Elohim appears to be sentient

In conclusion, the claim that Elohim compares with the Big Bang is only true in the grammatical sense and if one limits the properties of the big bang to conveniently coincide with the edited properties of Elohim.

A cabbage and a stapler are indeed comparable subjects if one reduces both their definitions down to a collection of atoms, but they are not identified in whos who under this limited description.
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Post by Tosh Sun Mar 24, 2013 10:44 am

How can Jesus be the son of an inanimate and non-sentient power ?
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Post by Tosh Sun Mar 24, 2013 10:50 am

The exact meaning of Elohim is not known though it seems to contain the idea of strength and power.

Basketball
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Post by Tosh Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:39 pm

they refuse to learn that Genesis 1:1 does neither denote cognizance of nor assigns cognizance to Elohim.

Please put those scissors away and stop pretending its a scalpel, to suggest Elohim in Genesis 1:1 is not cognizant just because this one verse does not explicitly state so, is bonkers. Every other verse does denote cognizance.
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Post by Tosh Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:56 pm

So God is not conscious until after he creates the universe, so the universe is Gods consciousness, and if the entire universe is God's consciousness then there is nothing to be conscious of, consciousness cannot exist in of itself, consciousness requires things to be conscious of, and everything is consciousness.

No point in praying, you are just a part of God's consciousness and he is not conscious of you.
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Post by snowyflake Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:20 pm

they refuse to learn that Genesis 1:1 does neither denote cognizance of nor assigns cognizance to Elohim.

If you are using the word elohim from hebrew (and trust me, my hebrew is a little rusty....), it can also mean gods since this is the plural and depends on whether a singular or plural verb is added after the word to denote its meaning.

So if one was being a stickler, Genesis 1:1 could read, In the beginning, gods created the heavens and the earth.

I find this translation business very waffly, Rock. How do you know that what you are reading is actually what it was meant to convey? And when things are passed on between languages, there is always some loss of nuance and meaning.

Let me give you an example. When I came to England, I was asking a scientist about a case I was analysing and it was frustrating me. So he said, Well never mind. Well, to a Canadian, 'Never mind' means the same as 'mind your own business'. So I was taken aback. It took me about 3 weeks to figure out that he meant, 'Don't worry about it' which is a completely different take on things. Whereas I was slightly miffed at being told to mind my own business and he wasn't going to help me, it was a completely different meaning when I figured out he was trying to reassure me. I think this happens a lot even with people who speak the same language but come from different backgrounds. Can you imagine the misunderstandings and misinterpretations you get into when you are speaking different languages?

Take care, Rock. Smile
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Post by Tosh Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:48 pm

There seems to be a common trait shared between Christian fundamentalists and conservative Republicans, both are obsessed with the literal meaning of words and sentences, if its not the constitution its the bible.

There must be a psychological reason behind this common mindset and it does seem to involve relativism, they seem incapable of understanding things relative to the present, I am convinced its a form of primitivism.
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Post by snowyflake Sun Mar 24, 2013 2:06 pm

There must be a psychological reason behind this common mindset and it does seem to involve relativism, they seem incapable of understanding things relative to the present, I am convinced its a form of primitivism.

They are all scared to death of dying so belief is a comfort to them.
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Post by Tosh Sun Mar 24, 2013 2:22 pm

They are all scared to death of dying so belief is a comfort to them.

Does the constitution promise them immortality as a god given inalienable right ?
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Post by snowyflake Sun Mar 24, 2013 3:09 pm

Does the constitution promise them immortality as a god given inalienable right ?

No. They have a god given inalienable right to bare arms though presumably this was instituted as a prophecy for the future fashion industry.
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Post by Guest Sun Mar 24, 2013 7:11 pm

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Post by Tosh Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:21 pm

Depends upon whose version of “proper English” to which you refer. There are English grammar “slaves” who worship the tools and would never call a tree “who.” More power to them; I’ll continue to use the tools in a manner that airs my understanding of mind-bending concepts like that presented in Big Bang. You think calling Big Bang “who” is strange? I’ll call Big Bang “Freddy” if it helps me to understand.

So, the truth is not just a matter of opinion, it is a matter of grammar.

There are too many people who are “white eyes”, in the Chiricahua terminology, folks who will grin at me while stabbing me in the back. Meanwhile, I can depend on you to say what you mean and mean what you say. Perhaps that’s why I trust you; perhaps that’s why I love you.

I trust you and love you to, although I have altered the meaning of the words to enable my truth.
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Post by snowyflake Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:46 pm

Perhaps that’s why I trust you; perhaps that’s why I love you.

That's a lovely thing to say, Rock. Thank you. Smile

Queen Elizabeth II, your actual queen for whom you pay and my “adopted” queen that I enjoy for free, says “we”, never “I”, and I’ve never seen two or more of her when she says it.

Yeah, that's just the English way. They're a bit pretentious. Smile
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Post by polyglide Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:24 am

Satan is not doing a bad job in proving you are complete idiot.

There has not been an unbroken sequence of events since the forming of the universe.

Life has been wiped out on several occasions.

The latest from the scientists is that the universe is thousands of years older than first thought.

And all their theories will eventually be proven wrong.

A brilliant American wag has come up with the brilliant idea that a butterfly developed a face on it's wings to deter a leaping frog from having it as a meal.

Humans have tried that tactic on numerous occasions and the result has been that very soon the animal realises that there is no threat and actually takes more of the kind for dinner.

A more sensible reason is that God put the faces on the butterfly to indicate to the intended prey that he had created them for that purpose
and to help themselves.

I no it is beyond your understanding the implications of the above but come on, get a two year old to explain.
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Post by Tosh Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:24 pm

Life has been wiped out on several occasions.

Not all life surely ?

And all their theories will eventually be proven wrong.

Not all theories surely ?

You seem very interested in butterflies, grasshopper.

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Post by Tosh Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:29 pm

A more sensible reason is that God put the faces on the butterfly to indicate to the intended prey that he had created them for that purpose and to help themselves.

polyglide,

I have tried reading this backwards, upside down and with my underpants on my head, is it in code ?

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Post by Tosh Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:31 pm

It is a coin toss who talks more gobbledegook, you or Texas.

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Post by snowyflake Mon Mar 25, 2013 7:43 pm

Satan is not doing a bad job in proving you are complete idiot.

This is not a very Christian sentiment is it? You go to the back of the class and start over.

There has not been an unbroken sequence of events since the forming of the universe.

What does this mean? There was a gap sometime? When and how do you know?

Life has been wiped out on several occasions.

Not all life. Are you including bacteria, viruses, amoeba, algae? Do you think that mass extinctions killed everything? That would create a sterile environment in which nothing would ever grow back and as you can see that it is not the case so I think you are talking doodoo again.

The latest from the scientists is that the universe is thousands of years older than first thought.

Smile Actually it's millions of years older and when you are talking about that kind of time span a thousand years here or there doesn't matter. It's only an estimate.

A brilliant American wag has come up with the brilliant idea that a butterfly developed a face on it's wings to deter a leaping frog from having it as a meal.Humans have tried that tactic on numerous occasions and the result has been that very soon the animal realises that there is no threat and actually takes more of the kind for dinner.
The scientist is postulating an evolutionary reason for survival and attractiveness to potential mates.
A more sensible reason is that God put the faces on the butterfly to indicate to the intended prey that he had created them for that purpose
and to help themselves.
Yeah, that God eh? Sitting at his desk painting faces on butterflies so the frogs and birds will know which ones to eat. He's God for godsakes why does anything eat anything else? Why not create us so we don't use up resources and spoil the planet? But no, God was too busy making funny looking insects and bacteria and viruses and dinosaurs because he has a bit of ADHD and can't make up his mind who he should allow to eat whom.

Do you have a drug habit? Seriously? confused
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Post by Guest Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:46 pm

polyglide wrote:
Satan is not doing a bad job in proving you are complete idiot.

… get a two year old to explain.

You are not doing a bad job in failing to exhibit common decency. Perhaps you might allow a two year old to show you how.
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Post by Tosh Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:17 pm

You are not doing a bad job in failing to exhibit common decency. Perhaps you might allow a two year old to show you how.

Why are you defending me my old friend, have you removed me from your hate list ?

scratch
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Post by snowyflake Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:20 pm

Tosh, polyglide is not a her, she's a him. Smile

46,XY = male
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Post by Tosh Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:27 pm

46,XY = male

What is this ?

Polyglide = fake troll.
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Post by polyglide Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:47 pm

Apologies for reducing myself to Tosh's level, I should have more sense than to rise to such ignorance.
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Post by snowyflake Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:07 pm

Apologies for reducing myself to Tosh's level, I should have more sense than to rise to such ignorance.

You would have to board an airplane to get to Tosh's level, polyglide. Every post you make screams ignorance especially in regards to science. Try some of your Christian kindness and tolerance eh?
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Post by polyglide Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:08 pm

Snowyflake, you apparently feel qualified to decide on any matter of subjects but have not seemingly the ability to do any in a proper manner.

I have never doubted Tosh's intelligence just that at times it is misplaced.

He has the knack of not answering a point without being sarcastic , not the sign of an over intelligent person just as one who uses nonsense to dispute a point. I do, I admit, return the favour but have never been the instigator.

I love Tosh as a person, irrespective of his shortcomings and the same applies to you.
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Post by snowyflake Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:13 pm

Snowyflake, you apparently feel qualified to decide on any matter of subjects but have not seemingly the ability to do any in a proper manner

You apparently feel qualified to decide on scientific matters and continuously do so in an improper manner.

Tosh is a funny guy. Smile You just gotta get used to him.
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Post by polyglide Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:08 am

I am used to him, I know, he knows, that I know, that I am right on many occasions but he just wants to keep the matter going, well maybe on all occasions but I am modest after all.
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Post by Tosh Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:21 pm

I am used to him, I know, he knows, that I know, that I am right on many occasions but he just wants to keep the matter going,

I am trying to think of any occasion you have been right, I am lost for words.
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Post by polyglide Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:56 pm

Sorry, I have given you the benifit of the doubt, you obviously do not understand the truth, sorry again for being so far off, I thought all your posts were for a laugh, do you realy believe what you post?.
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Post by Tosh Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:17 pm

Sorry, I have given you the benifit of the doubt, you obviously do not understand the truth, sorry again for being so far off, I thought all your posts were for a laugh, do you realy believe what you post?.

All my posts laugh at you, do you really believe what you post ?
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Post by polyglide Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:04 am

Your understanding of humour is about as sound as all your other offerings.
inconsistant and without foundation.

You say you believe in science and those who you feel are qualified etc

Then consider the following.


The whole basis of maths etc is that we all agree that one and one makes two etc.

Within this field there are calculations that determine the odds of any event having taken place or likely to take place.

Now you either accept this fact and it's findings or you do not accept those qualified in this field.

The odds of an eye developing by chance, irrespective of any other consideration, is far greater than the odds accepted as impossible.

In which case one has to look for the inteligence involved.

Now if you start doubting those findings you should also start doubting the stupid ideas you put forward.
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Post by Tosh Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:52 am

The odds of an eye developing by chance, irrespective of any other consideration, is far greater than the odds accepted as impossible.

Show me your calculations, and we will discuss it.
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Post by snowyflake Fri Apr 05, 2013 6:15 pm

The odds of an eye developing by chance, irrespective of any other consideration, is far greater than the odds accepted as impossible.

Does this make sense to anyone? What this mean?
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Post by Tosh Fri Apr 05, 2013 6:18 pm

Does this make sense to anyone? What this mean?

Show me the money, I think, give or take a vowel or two.
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Post by Jsmythe Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:11 pm

The odds of an eye developing by chance, irrespective of any other consideration, is far greater than the odds accepted as impossible.
. If we were to 'alternatively' talk about fibonacci sequences or formation by universal blueprints (natural law).then the odds would equally be in favour to the 'eye',being predetermined to be formed the way it is.
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Post by Jsmythe Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:31 pm

My question then would be; "How does one accept natural law by its own rules and regulations to have been formulated from chaos or bigbang? Logically this should not make sense using evolution as the model even be dared a claim by the cleverest of minds on the planet. This would indeed be impossible! Life and matter by evolution is understandable but not the very formation of the laws itself.

This is the area that is still unknown, so far.


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Post by snowyflake Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:34 pm

Can order arise out of chaos given enough time? (I'm asking because I know nothing about chaos theory)
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Post by Jsmythe Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:47 pm

Can order arise out of chaos given enough time? (I'm asking because I know nothing about chaos theory)

Hello Snowy,that is a good question,especially regarding time. I do believe in evolution but also the universe is so formulated that it becomes a funtionality. One part can not exist with out the other. I can only put that down to design.(IMO)

Good to see you again BTW

Smile
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