So...why is it religions hate each other and atheists?

First topic message reminder :

Having given the topic some serious consideration, I have no idea why the religious hate each other and the irreligious. And vice versa, of course.

Despite being collective worship coordinator at my secondary school, I am an athiest. Not proudly so, I might add - I just don't have faith in a deity or multiples thereof. Having said that, I have no issue with anyone who does. Harnessed in the right way, it can be an astonishing force for good.

I suspect the umbrella I would fall under is humanist, although I have never chosen a banner for myself. I believe in people: the family and friends around me; my students and colleagues; members of the human race in general.

The thing I object to is the evangelising fraternity who,when I politely reject their view of the universe, choose to label me as ... well, all sort of insulting and unfair nonsense. At this stage, please believe that I find Richard Dawkins as irritating as any ayalloah, church elder or priest.

Ultimately, if your religion fascilitates your ability to be a good, kind and humane person, brilliant. If you can be the same without a god, more power to your elbow.

So why can't we leave each other to get on with it?

You have no explanation for the origin of life that will stand up to even the most basic questsions.

I do not know requires no further explanation or answers.

As I have said previously, if I am correct in believing in God as the creator, and I am sure I am, then everything is explained.

Offering an explanation is not the same thing as offering truth. Religion has never been proven to be correct - about anything. Ever.

We've been over this already and my original post of months ago on this subject stands unrefuted by any believer on any board anywhere.

You have no explanation for the origin of life that will stand up to even the most basic questsions.

There was a time when no one had an explanation for what the sun was or how it burned. Guess what. Now we do. And it has nothing to do with religion. In the same way, the origin of life will be explained scientifically sooner or later, and your mythical ideas about gods poofing humanity into existence will fall by the wayside - just like every other supernatural explanation for our natural world. Adam and Eve will elicit the same incredulous giggles as the idea of the sun being pulled across the sky by a god in a chariot.

the odds of them comming together and connecting themselves to the brain are beyond any sensible thought, then you have to take the liver, heart, lungs, kidneys and all the other components involved and anyone who thinks this could all come about by chance is ????????????.

You have yet to address wholly bad designs such as having the same pipe be used for both eating and breathing, teeth that do not regenerate, or the need to excrete disease-laden waste. Nor have you ever explained evolutionary throw-backs such as men with nipples, the presence of "goosebumps" on our skin, and the 5% who are still born with extra bones that would only be good for running on all fours.

Explain to me why your god - or any god, for that matter - would create such a physically flawed entity and then add unnecessary body parts that would only serve us in a more primitive state.

Putting the waste disposal so close to the production line was probably not too clever either.....

Man has created most of the flaws by experimenting with life, the Devil will also have bean at work.

God created all things for a purpose all to do as he intended, just as someone would build a car and explain how it should be treated.

Treat the car as told, everything would be fine, think you know better, problems.

Man has had a long time in our terms to come to his senses, his interferance in many aspects of life have caused most problems, our main ones being self inflicted and then we have to find a cure etc;

I do not need to understand the universe or for that matter anything else to realise that life cannot have come about by chance.

This being so there must be an intelligent source involved and I belideve that is God.

God created all things for a purpose all to do as he intended,

What did God create us for?

What did God create us for?

Why, to serve him, of course. If you believe in Christianity, you believe that humanity was created as a slave race.

Man has created most of the flaws by experimenting with life, the Devil will also have bean at work.

Neither Man nor the Devil had anything at all to do with the defects and bad designs found within the human body. In this case, you need to have both scientific and Biblical proof that that you're correct. Otherwise, you're just making stuff up.

God created all things for a purpose all to do as he intended

Hence, the slave race.

Treat the car as told, everything would be fine, think you know better, problems.

The Bible doesn't so much as tell us to wash our hands after taking a dump, so I fail to see how God told us how to do much of anything in terms of caring for our bodies.

our main ones being self inflicted and then we have to find a cure etc

This is completely preposterous. Do you think Mankind was experimenting with biological warfare a thousand years before there was even knowledge of germs, viruses, and bacteria? Yet look at the horrible plagues and pandemics that were a staple of life during most of human history - up until science took root and gave us things like antibiotics, penecillan, and all manner of treatments. Disease has always been the greatest of Man's enemies and science, not God, gave us the weapons to finally put up an effective fight. If anything, God created the diseases and Mankind struggles to survive against them.

I do not need to understand the universe or for that matter anything else to realise that life cannot have come about by chance.

Of course, which is why religion is such an appealing answer to so many. You don't have to think.

The fact that people do not do what they were intended to do is the reason why we are in such a state.

If all other plant and animal life was left alone by mankind they would all flourish and do and act their place in nature as intended, it is man's inability to leave things as intended that has caused all the problems and not God's fault.

There is not one animal that cannot take care of itself and it's young better than a human without outside help.

Man has created man's problems and also not done a bad job of making problems for animals.

Illness was created by man not by God.

The fact that people do not do what they were intended to do is the reason why we are in such a state.

If that were the case then Christians should never get sick.

and not God's fault.

It is ALL God's fault. That's the problem with inventing an all-powerful, all-knowing creator. There is no WAY to avoid God's culpability no matter how much time and energy you spend trying to rationalize it. You can't blame it on the Devil because who created the Devil? Oh right ... God did. Remember that a war was fought in Heaven, a war against an angelic rebelliion led by Lucifer. Are you suggesting that God had no clue that, by creating Lucifer, a rebellion would take place? God either knew beforehand and deliberately put evil into the world OR God was incompetent, made a mistake, and then tried to pin it on humanity. You can't blame humanity, either, for who created humans? Oh right ... God did. According to your beliefs, Adam and Eve couldn't last a day in the face of temptation but you never stop to think just WHO it was who placed within us the propensity to sin. Oh right ... God did as the designer of our brains. You can't blame it on free will for the same reason. If God were half the decent and fair entity you claim he is, God would have taken responsibility for his own actions and rectified the mistake rather than passing the buck.

There is not one animal that cannot take care of itself and it's young better than a human without outside help.

I'll be sure to message all veterinarians to stop treating animals that get brought into their clinics.

Man has created man's problems and also not done a bad job of making problems for animals.

I'll agree with that for the most part - since God doesn't exist to create our problems. Neither does the Devil.

Illness was created by man not by God.

Wait, wait! Let me get this straight. Are you suggesting here that humans really CAN create life, that humanity hundreds of centuries ago before the advent of genetics and biology created germs, bacteria, and viruses out of nothing? But ... but ... I thought you said we couldn't do that!

Illness was created by man not by God.

....except Malaria, and it kills one child every minute.

The fact that people do not do what they were intended to do is the reason why we are in such a state.

What were we intended to do??? PLEASE ANSWER THIS QUESTION, I'VE ASKED IT MANY TIMES. WHAT IS THIS INTENTION THAT WE ARE NOT DOING THAT'S the reason we are in such a state?? WHAT IS IT FOR GODSAKES!!??

If all other plant and animal life was left alone by mankind they would all flourish and do and act their place in nature as intended, it is man's inability to leave things as intended that has caused all the problems and not God's fault.

The world is 4.5 billion years old. Homo sapiens has been around for about 200,000 years. 99% of the world's species have gone extinct. Since we have only been around a relatively short time, I think it's a bit of a nonsense to blame all the world's ills and extinctions and problems on man. We inherited this world. Tell me, would you rather we lived 500 years ago when everyone believed in God and they were killing heretics, witches, mentally ill people and homosexuals? Where the coloured races were considered savages and less than human and were a commodity to be traded? Where women had no voice or influence. Where children were regularly beaten, killed, molested without anyone taking their side and seeking justice for them. Where the disabled were locked away from sight because they must have committed a very grave sin to have such bad luck visited on them. Is that the world you want to live in, polyglide.

If it is, you are one sad puppy.

There is not one animal that cannot take care of itself and it's young better than a human without outside help.

Puppies can't look after themselves. In fact, any infant animal needs its mother or it won't survive at all.

Man has created man's problems and also not done a bad job of making problems for animals.

MAKE UP YOUR MIND MAN!! One minute it's man, the next it's the devil. Answer me this please. Is the world a better place now than 100 years ago?

Illness was created by man not by God.

If you believe in God then God created everything including viruses, bacteria and fungi. If you believe in God, illness was created by God.

Shirina wrote:

As I have said previously, if I am correct in believing in God as the creator, and I am sure I am, then everything is explained.

Offering an explanation is not the same thing as offering truth. Religion has never been proven to be correct - about anything. Ever.

We've been over this already and my original post of months ago on this subject stands unrefuted by any believer on any board anywhere.

You have no explanation for the origin of life that will stand up to even the most basic questsions.

There was a time when no one had an explanation for what the sun was or how it burned. Guess what. Now we do. And it has nothing to do with religion. In the same way, the origin of life will be explained scientifically sooner or later, and your mythical ideas about gods poofing humanity into existence will fall by the wayside - just like every other supernatural explanation for our natural world. Adam and Eve will elicit the same incredulous giggles as the idea of the sun being pulled across the sky by a god in a chariot.

the odds of them comming together and connecting themselves to the brain are beyond any sensible thought, then you have to take the liver, heart, lungs, kidneys and all the other components involved and anyone who thinks this could all come about by chance is ????????????.

You have yet to address wholly bad designs such as having the same pipe be used for both eating and breathing, teeth that do not regenerate, or the need to excrete disease-laden waste. Nor have you ever explained evolutionary throw-backs such as men with nipples, the presence of "goosebumps" on our skin, and the 5% who are still born with extra bones that would only be good for running on all fours.

Explain to me why your god - or any god, for that matter - would create such a physically flawed entity and then add unnecessary body parts that would only serve us in a more primitive state.

Goosebumps, as Shirina clearly knows, arise from the atavistic instinct to thicken our fur when it's cold. Unfortunately we no longer have fur to lengthen and layer, so our teeth chatter instead. Anyone know why our teeth chatter when it's cold?

Goosebumps, as Shirina clearly knows, arise from the atavistic instinct to thicken our fur when it's cold. Unfortunately we no longer have fur to lengthen and layer, so our teeth chatter instead. Anyone know why our teeth chatter when it's cold?

Because you haven't got fur, OW?

Snowyflake, just get someone to explain the following :

God created man and gave him all the goods of the earth to enjoy.

Both animal and vegitable.

He explained how best to get the most pleasure and longivity from all that he offered.

Man thought he knew better.

We now see the result of him doing so.

God created man and gave him all the goods of the earth to enjoy.

Prove it.

He explained how best to get the most pleasure and longivity from all that he offered.

Is that all that business in Leviticus about not blending cotton with wool or mixing corn with asparagus and if you do you will be smited to smithereens?

Man thought he knew better.

For 5000 years most people believed in a deity of one sort or another. Only in the last 300 years has science changed that notion. And even up to 50 or 60 years ago, most people still went to church. My question then is, why has religion not solved all of the world's problems in the 5000 years before the last century? If religion and belief are so good for mankind why hasn't it fixed the world. It's had a long time to do so. Instead we see religion as the major cause of conflict in the world.

Your argument falls woefully short of the mark, poly.

Of course there are problems but ask yourself how many people do you know are truly bad people? The only bad people I ever hear about are on the news. There are 7 billion people on the planet and I am willing to bet that most of them are pretty good, decent, moral, kind, caring people. Unless they are religious nutters.

There are 7 billion people on the planet and I am willing to bet that most of them are pretty good, decent, moral, kind, caring people.

Yep.

Most people all want the same things - peace, tranquility, the ability to earn a living, safety and security for themselves and their families, a comfortable home, etc.

But I'm still waiting for polyglide to answer ANY of my questions, especially these two:

Question 1: What's the point of making the world a better place if polyglide's apocalyptic beliefs say that the world has to go to shit in order for Christ to return? If humanity's ending is prophesied in Revelations, why lift a finger?

Question 2: How does polyglide explain all of the evolutionary throwbacks and bad designs in the human body? Why the goosebumps? The bone that is only good for running on all fours? Men with nipples?

I'm sure I'll wait in vain.

polyglide wrote:The fact that people do not do what they were intended to do is the reason why we are in such a state.

If all other plant and animal life was left alone by mankind they would all flourish and do and act their place in nature as intended, it is man's inability to leave things as intended that has caused all the problems and not God's fault.

There is not one animal that cannot take care of itself and it's young better than a human without outside help.

Man has created man's problems and also not done a bad job of making problems for animals.

Illness was created by man not by God.

Illness was created by man not by God

What humans describe as "illness" is usually another life-form which has attached itself to a person in order to feed and subsist. Such life-forms are in turn under constant attack from mankind's medical advances.

"

Question 1: What's the point of making the world a better place if polyglide's apocalyptic beliefs say that the world has to go to shit in order for Christ to return? If humanity's ending is prophesied in Revelations, why lift a finger?

To save the butterflies, but don't quote me.

What humans describe as "illness" is usually another life-form which has attached itself to a person in order to feed and subsist. Such life-forms are in turn under constant attack from mankind's medical advances.

We have eradicated small pox. We vaccinate against killer viruses like measles, mumps, rubella, polio, diptheria, rabies, influenza, hepatitis. Leprosy is practically non-existant. Granted Jesus isn't around to cure the lepers so we had to be innovate and create antibiotics. Should we go back to just before WWII when antibiotics were not readily available and more men died of their wounds from sepsis than anything else? Perhaps, you'd prefer those days when more of your children died from disease than survived.

You've got a completely warped view of the world and I blame your preacher, that stupid book and the irrational belief attached to it.

What happened to the philosophy of "Live and let live"?

What happened to the philosophy of "Live and let live"?

What happened to the philosophy of "Live and let live"?

General Order 1 only applies to alien life, keep on trekking.

Shirina, please just read and understand what is actually written instead of your own interpretation.

God created all things perfect, at the same time he explained how they could be kept in that state. Do you understand that?

Man decided he knew better and as a result both animal and all other life forms have suffered.

Of course there are numerous examples of both animals and humans with all kinds of problems and deformaties, the reason being not using that which we were given in the intended way.

Sexually and interfearance with all life forms has been the result and not God's fault.

Now do you understand that?.

Man decided he knew better and as a result both animal and all other life forms have suffered.

Give me some of your medication and maybe the above tripe will explain Malaria killing a child every minute.

God created all things perfect, at the same time he explained how they could be kept in that state. Do you understand that?

I'm really not sure that I do. Did God really think that humans would simply frolic around in the Garden of Eden for all eternity? What's the point of such an existence? And if the Garden of Eden was paradise, why bother with it instead of just creating humanity in Heaven?

Sexually and interfearance with all life forms has been the result and not God's fault.

I'm sorry, polyglide, but it IS God's fault. I have said over and over again that God's omniscience MAKES it his fault. Even if what you say is true and humanity mucked it all up, God KNEW beforehand that we would yet still created us with a propensity for giving into temptation and granting us an insatiable curiosity - the kind of curiosity that often requires us to learn lessons the hard way.

I personally was never given the choice whether or not to eat the forbidden fruit. For some sick and twisted reason, I personally must pay for Eve's indiscretion. Why is that, polyglide? Do you think that is justice? How fair do you think it would be if the police arrived at your door today, slapped the cuffs on you, and hauled you down to the station because some distant relative 900 years ago murdered someone? And now you will be imprisoned, perhaps even tortured and executed, for that distant relative's crime. And your children will suffer the same, and on and on until the end of time?

God created all things perfect, at the same time he explained how they could be kept in that state. Do you understand that?

I don't understand it. Can you explain it again please? One question though, if God created all things perfect, why did he let a snake into the garden to tempt Eve. Surely a lying, tempting snake is imperfect. So how did the lying tempting snake become and then get into a place where 'God created all things perfect'?

Of course there are numerous examples of both animals and humans with all kinds of problems and deformaties, the reason being not using that which we were given in the intended way

.

Chromosomal non-disjunction happens when the female ovum does not segregate equally to the daughter eggs during Meiosis 1 or Meiosis 2. When this happens, one daughter egg gets two copies of a chromosome (instead of one) and the other egg gets nothing of that chromosome. This type of chromosomal mis-segregation causes trisomy 21 (Down syndrome), trisomy 18 (Edward syndrome), Trisomy 13 (Patau syndrome), and also trisomy for chromosomes 2,8,9,16, and 20. This happens quite often in older mothers. The risk of Down syndrome goes from 1 in 100 in a 40 year old to 1 in 7 in a 45 year old. Age increases risk.

Please can you be more specific about 'doing things in the proper way'. Many thanks,

Through the abuse and thoughtlessness of mankind in the use of that which God has given us, including the chromosome and genes and all manner of that which involves life is why we have so many problems, not God's fault but man's.

Science and every other invention and every other theory is based on the fact that certain things will always perform in the same manner.

This could not possibly be as a result of anything evolving in a random manner and indicates clearly that intelligence is involved.

When you think you know better and abuse that which should not be abused you end up in the situation we now find ourselves in.

Please just stop talking. You make a mockery of human dignity with this tripe.

These vague platitudes that don't mean anything reflect only your own lack of knowledge, education and intelligence.

Say something specific and then support it with evidence. Your ignorant blathering is annoying and grating. By specific I mean tell us what specifically 'God has given us' and what are the specific problems associated with it that man has caused. I want to see some effort in your posts and not this vague run of the mill fanatical foaming at the mouth that doesn't actually impart any information whatsoever.

People do not control how their chromosomes segregate during meiosis. Are you suggesting that Down syndrome is somehow the fault of the parents because they did not do as God intended? Try telling that to all the Christian parents of Down syndrome children. 50% of 1st trimester pregnancy losses are caused by chromosomal non-disjunction. Are you suggesting that God intended for mothers to get pregnant and then because they didn't do as God intended, God made them miscarry their babies? Well, God is a very busy beaver because our hospital alone gets 600 placental samples every year for investigation which is a fraction of the actual pregnancy losses, because we don't investigate every one. Multiply that the world over and God must be spending all of this time making babies and destroying them.

What situation do we now find ourselves in. This is your belief based on end-times biblical prophecy which was written 2000 years ago. Why not try some current information that is scientifically proven and evidence-based?

Britain's violent crime rate is reducing. We are better than we have ever been. We are kinder, more tolerant, less racist, less violent. This is not down to belief in God. In fact, the belief in God is proving to cause the opposite. Belief in God causes division and conflict. It's automatic.

By specific I mean tell us what specifically 'God has given us' and what are the specific problems associated with it that man has caused.

I'm still waiting for him to explain how mankind "misused" the Yersinia pestis bacterium in 1348 that caused the Black Death.

One question though, if God created all things perfect, why did he let a snake into the garden to tempt Eve. Surely a lying, tempting snake is imperfect. So how did the lying tempting snake become and then get into a place where 'God created all things perfect'?

I found the snake's punishment rather odd.

Then the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, you are cursed more than all animals, domestic and wild. You will crawl on your belly, groveling in the dust as long as you live.

Maybe the snake had legs before it sinned but then it wouldn't be a snake ?

you are cursed more than all animals, domestic and wild

Are we to assume God created the domestic dog and the wild wolf separately, rules out micro-evolution.

Are we to assume God created the domestic dog and the wild wolf separately, rules out micro-evolution.

If you rule out evolution you have to explain the genetic similarities between all species. Why have any of this knowledge if it doesn't conclude that we descended from an ancient common ancestor? Everything else in life is based on evidence but it is only when the evidence contradicts religious belief or faith that we get outright denial of the evidence.....and that is based on no evidence at all!

[quote="Tosh"]

Maybe the snake had legs before it sinned but then it wouldn't be a snake ?

Just a minor point, but snakes did used to have legs, and indeed most still have vestigial leg bones inside their body. Evolution or a curse aside, the fact remains.

When it had legs, it wasn't called a snake. Just saying....

Just a minor point, but snakes did used to have legs, and indeed most still have vestigial leg bones inside their body. Evolution or a curse aside, the fact remains.

An argument for both macro-evolution and Genesis, very interesting.

Every single last dog living is descended from wolves. But enjoys the regular meals and home comforts of a human domestic environment, so has learned to like us for what we can provide, rather than as just lunch.

Every single last dog living is descended from wolves. But enjoys the regular meals and home comforts of a human domestic environment, so has learned to like us for what we can provide, rather than as just lunch.

In that case the term " learned to like " is relative, if we stop providing it with reasons to like us then it will learn to be a wolf again.

Sounds like the relative nature of morality, no such thing as true altruism, even Jesus died for selfish reasons.

Symbiotic relationship....humans and domesticated pets. Dogs provided an early warning system and were friendly to us if we fed them. They didn't have to hunt and treated us like their 'pack' so they were protective. Wouldn't do them any good to let something else kill or eat their providers. The bonus of having a dog is that they love you in spite of you just being a food supply. They're always happy to see you and they never tell you off.

The bonus of having a dog is that they love you in spite of you just being a food supply. They're always happy to see you and they never tell you off.

Stop feeding it and then see how happy it is to see you.

Stop feeding it and then see how happy it is to see you.

Well, that could equally apply to my sons and husband as well......

QUOTE: "Dogs provided an early warning system...."

Yes. well, so do Geese, but you wouldn't choose either as an alternative to matrimony. Or would you?

Who can tell, these days?