What drives the British electorate?

First topic message reminder :

Having had an interest in politics from way-back I have been watching how the face of British politics has changed over the last few years and this has encouraged me to think about what drives the British voters.

I know that a lot of us come from fixed political philosophies and people like those are liable to keep voting for the candidates that wear the correct colour of rosette rather than looking deeply into the policies of each candidate. Having said that I have also noted that many voters now come from the demographic known as the "floating voters" and it is these voters that often have the making or breaking of potential governments in their hands when they go to lay their little crosses.

The question I really want to ask is: Do the voters, ( if not voting in a traditional left or right direction ), vote for the party that promises them the most at the time rather than voting for any specific party philosophy, or are the British voters actually far better educated about what each of the parties stand for and they vote accordingly ?

In other words... Are the great British electorate BOUGHT each time that they go to the polls or in the main do they think carefully about what will be the result of where they lay their individual crosses ?

Regards....

Papaumau.

They need to go NOW so that Labour can sort out the terrible damage that has been done to our famous NHS and the wider welfare state before the damage is so ingrained that it will be too difficult to reverse.

Yes Papa, we now know the full price patients had to pay for Labours target driven NHS.....A severe lack of patient care and thousands of needless deaths. Is the NHS safe in Labours hands, I think not

blueturando wrote:

They need to go NOW so that Labour can sort out the terrible damage that has been done to our famous NHS and the wider welfare state before the damage is so ingrained that it will be too difficult to reverse.

Yes Papa, we now know the full price patients had to pay for Labours target driven NHS.....A severe lack of patient care and thousands of needless deaths. Is the NHS safe in Labours hands, I think not

Now everybody knows the Tory intentions of privatizing the NHS handing over OUR NHS to their friends in the private health sector & private health Insurance, would this be for donations to the Tory party funds or that so many Tory MPs + supporters have their ill gotten gains in shares in these companies...

Blueturando wrote:-
We now know the full price patients had to pay for Labours target driven NHS.....A severe lack of patient care and thousands of needless deaths. Is the NHS safe in Labours hands, I think not

We now know the initial price that patients are paying for having the Tories in charge of the NHS again:-

“Patients' happiness with the NHS has fallen by record levels after an annual survey found that government reforms have left nearly one in four people dissatisfied with the health service…..The decline comes after nearly a decade of improving levels of satisfaction with the health service.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9324019/Biggest-drop-in-satisfaction-with-NHS-in-30-years-survey.html

The full price will be when patients have to pay for some, and later all, treatments under a privatised NHS.

Targets were so terrible, weren’t they? Especially the target of reducing waiting times for treatment from 2 years to 4 months, which was met. Thank goodness the Tories have relaxed the four-hour waiting time target for A&E departments, so that now people in pain can enjoy waiting even longer.

“Thousands of needless deaths”, eh? Any evidence to support that assertion? No, of course not. Short of giving people the wrong medication, I don’t see how it’s possible to quantify ‘needless deaths’. If a person is in hospital because they’re very sick, who can really say that they can be prevented from dying?

Rather than post lazy tabloid smears designed only to undermine the NHS and soften up public opinion for full-scale privatisation, try reading some of the well-researched articles by Steve Walker on this forum, such as those on this page:-
https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t7p390-is-the-nhs-really-safe-in-tory-hands

blueturando wrote:

They need to go NOW so that Labour can sort out the terrible damage that has been done to our famous NHS and the wider welfare state before the damage is so ingrained that it will be too difficult to reverse.

Yes Papa, we now know the full price patients had to pay for Labours target driven NHS.....A severe lack of patient care and thousands of needless deaths. Is the NHS safe in Labours hands, I think not

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..............

I am wondering where you got the idea that a "target-driven" NHS was a Labour idea ?

The Tories, under Thatcher, ( and I really hate to keep bringing that terrible name up ), were the first political party to try to force the NHS to work completely under the "free-market-system" by trying to totally privatise this wonderful institution by the front door. She failed, but she still did a lot of damage by replacing many clinical managers and consultants with business managers. We are STILL suffering from the fallout this caused today.

I will admit that Blair and Brown did little to redress this damage and after they were also booted out of power in came David Cameron who has, more-successfully than Thatcher, managed to privatise it once again BY THE BACK DOOR as he sends all of the money that is in the NHS to be doled out by local Doctor's surgeries.

Now, by stealth, this is once again going to deliver much of the services of the already-damaged NHS into the hands of the privateers that did not get their hands on it during Thatcher's reign.

THIS destructive action MUST be stopped !

Regards....

Papaumau.

blueturando wrote:
A severe lack of patient care and thousands of needless deaths.

Blue, if you've been paying attention at all, the '1000s of deaths' myth has been thoroughly debunked - by me, on the health board. It's just a nonsense comment.

blueturando wrote:

They need to go NOW so that Labour can sort out the terrible damage that has been done to our famous NHS and the wider welfare state before the damage is so ingrained that it will be too difficult to reverse.

Yes Papa, we now know the full price patients had to pay for Labours target driven NHS.....A severe lack of patient care and thousands of needless deaths. Is the NHS safe in Labours hands, I think not

What about the 18 years of Tory neglect blue the money that was needed to run it properly that your gov't would not give it, to what Labour inherited from them in 1997 18 month waiting lists people where dying while awaiting for their operations, and when Labour left power in 2010 the budget for the NHS was £111 Billion and now that has been cut to £109 Billion, and most of that money goes on wages for the NHS Managers something else the last Tory gov't brought in jobs for their friends like everything else the Tory gov't privatize give it to their friends or a Tory donor to rob it blind until it goes to the wall.

What needs to be done to make the poor get out and vote?

Implementing Leveson might reduce the apathy.

....as I've been arguing for years - a radical reduction in wage differentials and introducing a living wage is the only measure that will rescue the uk economy....and will also result in the welfare bill being reduced by a more significant amount than any of the present cruel and unnecessary measures.

It's not just getting out and voting that will change things, though, is it?
People need to keep informed about what their elected representatives are doing, to be in frequent contact with them and keeping them honest.
They get into that boy's club in London and lose sight, very often, of the local and national needs and priorities that got them the votes in the first place.

As politics has become more 'professionalised', people feel less and less connected to their elected representatives.

To my mind, it's a bit like professional football - time was, your local professional team was just that - local - you might have been at school with the star player, your mum may have shopped at the same shops, and you felt connected.

Now, with football as with politics, 'talent' is parachuted in from who knows where - we don't know these people, we can't make them accountable on a personal level. Our local MP lives in Essex - how can he know the needs and circumstances in a very unique and depressed part of Norfolk?
Even if he cared - which I don't believe he does - he wouldn't understand the situation of most of his constituents, and as he is very rarely here, how can he be made to feel accountable on a personal level for the policies of his government?

"Our local MP lives in Essex - how can he know the needs and circumstances in a very unique and depressed part of Norfolk .... as he is very rarely here ...."

Surely he must come up for The Hunt Ball, Dear Lady.

sickchip wrote:....as I've been arguing for years - a radical reduction in wage differentials and introducing a living wage is the only measure that will rescue the uk economy....and will also result in the welfare bill being reduced by a more significant amount than any of the present cruel and unnecessary measures.

A few enlightened and voluntary companies and local authority employers have already started to pay a proper "living wage" instead of the miserable minimum wage, and as you say sickchip, the more people who have decent wages the more money will be spent and injected into this failing economy.

Maybe it is time that the "living wage" was brought up to the enforceable standard of the "minimum wage" so that at last the people at the bottom end of our society that WANT TO WORK will get a decent reward for the application of this ethic.

It is only when the fat-cats stop getting the cream that they don't deserve and the hard-working people on the streets start getting fair treatment that the bad feelings between the "them and us" folk will start to diminish.

Maybe then we will be more likely to support the Tory ideal that "we are all in this together".

Regards.....

Papaumau.

Papaumau wrote:

sickchip wrote:....as I've been arguing for years - a radical reduction in wage differentials and introducing a living wage is the only measure that will rescue the uk economy....and will also result in the welfare bill being reduced by a more significant amount than any of the present cruel and unnecessary measures.

A few enlightened and voluntary companies and local authority employers have already started to pay a proper "living wage" instead of the miserable minimum wage, and as you say sickchip, the more people who have decent wages the more money will be spent and injected into this failing economy.

Maybe it is time that the "living wage" was brought up to the enforceable standard of the "minimum wage" so that at last the people at the bottom end of our society that WANT TO WORK will get a decent reward for the application of this ethic.

It is only when the fat-cats stop getting the cream that they don't deserve and the hard-working people on the streets start getting fair treatment that the bad feelings between the "them and us" folk will start to diminish.

Maybe then we will be more likely to support the Tory ideal that "we are all in this together".

Regards.....

Papaumau.

Good post Papaumau and very true, I wonder if any of the Tory councils are paying the living wage to there employees ? fat chance they only people getting decent salaries are the ones at the top because that is the Tory way crumbs for us PLEBS and cream for those that think themselves above us.

Why is UKIP picking up the anti-establishment vote rather than the Green Party?

I’ve already posted a link to an article which argues that UKIP is not an anti-establishment party:-
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/05/ukip-victory-ruling-class
Yet somehow UKIP has tapped into discontent with the main political parties. The Green Party has been around for much longer and arguably espouses more critical issues; surely the survival of the planet has to be more important than smoking in pubs, opposition to equal marriage and whether or not we stay in the EU?

The Green Party is not a flash in the pan. It won 15% of the votes for the EU Parliament way back in 1989. It now has an MP, something which UKIP still can’t boast. It has evidence on its side, which people will eventually run out of reasons to ignore. By then the economy, the environment and consequently society will be utterly ruined, but that’s democracy for you.

We know that voters will respond when they see a viable alternative to the three main Westminster parties. They voted in Caroline Lucas in Brighton and George Galloway in Bradford. So why have 23% of those who voted last Thursday (just over 7% of the whole electorate) been sucked in by a far-right party that has policies which run contrary to the interests of most of us?

It has to come down mainly to the media. UKIP has had over a decade’s worth of tabloid hysteria to bolster it. The owners and editors of those papers love UKIP’s agenda of bashing the EU, immigrants, human rights and welfare recipients; that interests them far more than ecological policies. The BBC is just as bad, continuously trotting out Nigel Farage, not Caroline Lucas, as the representative of a major force in politics. The media has created the monster.

There is, however, another factor in why UKIP is generating more froth than the Green Party. UKIP is exploiting pre-existing prejudices, especially xenophobia, while the Green Party disapproves of the way many of us live our lives. Most people like supermarkets, cars and aeroplanes and want to turn the heating up in their homes. UKIP panders to their bigotry, while the Green Party wants them to change for the better. We all know that it’s usually a lot easier to be bad than to be good.

".... the Green Party disapproves of the way many of us live our lives. Most people like supermarkets, cars and aeroplanes and want to turn the heating up in their homes. UKIP panders to their bigotry, while the Green Party wants them to change for the better. We all know that it’s usually a lot easier to be bad than to be good."

Perhaps all the political commentators should move over to the God-bothering section, to be on the safe side.

oftenwrong wrote:".... the Green Party disapproves of the way many of us live our lives. Most people like supermarkets, cars and aeroplanes and want to turn the heating up in their homes. UKIP panders to their bigotry, while the Green Party wants them to change for the better. We all know that it’s usually a lot easier to be bad than to be good."

Perhaps all the political commentators should move over to the God-bothering section, to be on the safe side.

Did you know OW the same Green party that runs Brighton are siding with the Tories in council to cut the wages of there public sector workers by £300.00 per month, makes me thingk the greens are turning blue just like the Lib-Dems.

blueturando wrote:It was quite clear from last nights result that what drives the British electorate is 'None of the above'

Hi bluey, ill never understand how any ordinary person in this country can vote for a party that ideologically are against all that traditional Labour stood for. I refer to the founding of the NHS. The building of council houses for people who cannot afford to buy, of which there are now millions. And the linking of State pensions to male average earnings.

Ivanhoe

The people that vote for Ideologically bias party have had the wool well and truly pulled over their eyes, then there is those that would vote Tory no matter what they are just as tribal as we are in the Labour party, the difference is Ivanhoe the Labour party look after the sick disabled and the vulnerable whereas the Tories make those kind of people pay for the bankers bail out and the rich and wealthy's tax breaks and that says it all.

Redflag wrote:

Ivanhoe wrote:

blueturando wrote:It was quite clear from last nights result that what drives the British electorate is 'None of the above'

Hi bluey, ill never understand how any ordinary person in this country can vote for a party that ideologically are against all that traditional Labour stood for. I refer to the founding of the NHS. The building of council houses for people who cannot afford to buy, of which there are now millions. And the linking of State pensions to male average earnings.

Ivanhoe

The people that vote for Ideologically bias party have had the wool well and truly pulled over there eyes, then there is those that would vote Tory no matter what they are just as tribal as we are in the Labour party, the difference is Ivanhoe the Labour party look after the sick disabled and the vulnerable whereas the Tories make those kind of people pay for the bankers bail out and the rich and wealthy's tax breaks and that say's it all.

Redflag, The Tories since Thatcher have chosen to make the deficit a cover for dismantling the welfare state because they dont believe in it. And the real problem is that the media arent challenging this reality.

Ivanhoe

I think the UK public are big enough to stand up to these nasty BACKSTUDS, and very capable of taking back OUR country from the SHYTE HEADS

IVANHOE....I am not brainwashed enough to not recognise that Labour have done some good things for the country, but I would have to look a the recent record to make an informed judgement. Now I know Ivan will probably search hard for leftie articles to rebuff what I say but for me the overall picture Labour have created is quite disturbing....

The UK's education levels and standards have dropped and no amount of exam fiddling will change the fact that too many of our youngsters are not well equiped for the working world, with many unemployable. To cover up this fact Labour opened the door to mass immigration...no even went out and searched for more immigrants to cover the short fall. This has led to wage levels for non skilled and manual workers being kept low...The very people Labour are supposed to represent. Anyone who questioned the levels of immigration was instantly labelled a Bigot (see Gordon Brown) or a racist.

We now have a dependency culture...Ivan will disagree, but even he knows its true...Just watch 'Skint' on channel 4 Monday at 9pm. Its simple...If you let bleeding heart lefties tell these people its not their fault and remove all personal responsibility from people, then they will always find someone else to blame for their woes rather than work hard to improve their lot.

There are a lot of people who are completely fed up with being taken for granted and being taken for fools by the 3 main parties. They are fed up with the bureacracy from the EU, the levels of immigration, the failure to deal with illegal immigrants, the out of touch politicians from all parties who abuse their position, their expenses and lie to us at every opportunity. None will give a straight answer to a simple questions.....

'Dear politician, please can you tell me what day it is'?

Politician 'Well what are saying is that it doesn't matter what day it is because tomorrow is just another day'

Labour will blame the tories for something and the tories will blame Labour for the other...when in reality neither does anything about the issues, apart from trying to pas the buck...IE... Social housing, NHS, Banking crisis, Boarder controls, deportation of foreign criminals, expenses scandal, job creation, tax avoidance, party donations, the deficit....and the list goes on

It's becomming quite clear that the elctorate is fed up with 'all of the above' and I guarentee if the real lefties had someone else to vote for, they would probably not be voting for Labour.

Don't get me wrong, the Tories and the Lib dems are no better. If there was an election tomorrow I would be voting UKIP. At least Farage speaks our language and be that I mean he's a straight talker....there's no BS whether you agree with him or not

Blue, once again you have posted a selection of opinions, based on no evidence as far as I can see.

I think it's actually fine for you to hold whatever opinions you like, but please, for the sakle of a bit of harmony if nothing else, do acknowledge that they are OPINIONS.

If you want to present FACTS - you need evidence to back them up.

The UK's education levels and standards have dropped

Who says? Where do they say it? Do they say why? Do they have statistics, facts or current research to back up their assertions?

We now have a dependency culture

Says who?

Farage speaks our language and be that I mean he's a straight talker....there's no BS whether you agree with him or not

(that's my opinion)

BLUE I am glad you agree that the Labour party did some good things for the UK I would hope you would also agree that the Tories and Lib-Dems are doing there best to dis-mantle the good that was done. Let us take the NHS the trouble within A&E depts. Hunt is saying its all Labours fault because of the GP contracts that where signed in 2004 are to blame for the troubles in A&E depts, I would imagine that if that was the case the trouble would have reared its head long before NINE YEARS in fact it is nearly ten, when in truth it's all down the "Top Down Re-Organization" of the NHS by Landsley so what I want to know is WHEN are the Tories going to take responsibility for THEIR ACTIONS and not blame anybody and everybody but THEMSELVES and it is the same old story with the Economy Osborne keeps blaming Labour when most of us know it was the borrowing to BAIL OUT BANKS that caused most of the deficit not Labours over spending on public services.

As for Farage and UKIP they are no different from the Tories as has been proved the Tories that are leaving the sinking ship including yourself are joining and voting UKIP, Nadine Dorres wants to stand on a joint ticket with UKIP candidate, but what do UKIP stand for leaving the EU smaller taxes for the bankers and big business while the normal man/women will pay for that plus most of the public services that we pay for through taxes would go. So to me that sounds like jumping from the frying pan into the fire. :bom:

boatlady wrote:-
If you want to present FACTS - you need evidence to back them up.

It’s a waste of time trying to reason with blueturando. You can provide all the evidence you like, but he knows best. He has his prejudices and he won’t allow any amount of facts to change them.

Farage speaks our language

Farage may speak your language, but he certainly doesn’t speak mine, I hate misogynists:-
Godfrey Bloom (UKIP MEP): “No employer with a brain in the right place would employ a young, single, free woman”.
Farage: “Dear old Godders! His comment has been proved so right.”

I mean he's a straight talker....there's no BS whether you agree with him or not

I wonder how much straight talking Farage did when he had his secret dinner with Rupert Murdoch, or was he there to take instructions? Hitler was a straight talker too, and so are some of Farage’s fascist associates. UKIP is part of the group Europe of Freedom and Democracy (EFD). The group includes representatives of the Danish People’s Party, the True Finns Party, the Dutch SGP and the infamous Italian Lega Nord – all of them far-right. Nigel Farage is co-President of the group along with Lega Nord’s Francesco Speroni, who described multiple murderer Anders Breivik as someone whose “ideas are in defence of western civilisation”. Mario Borghezio, another member of the group, declared in a radio interview that Breivik had some "excellent" ideas.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/02/ukip-party-bigots-lets-look-evidence

Try reading – and costing – UKIP’s policies and you’ll soon see that it’s all BS. 40% more on defence, twice as many prison places, top rate of tax down to 31%? It’s as insane as Reaganomics.

UKIP is the British equivalent of the Tea Party, full of racists, bigots and fruitcakes. Rafael Behr, the political editor of ‘The New Statesman’, summed up UKIP very neatly: “Electoral brigands who mobilise nostalgic fantasies about the past to wage war on the present.”

blueturando wrote:IVANHOE....I am not brainwashed enough to not recognise that Labour have done some good things for the country, but I would have to look a the recent record to make an informed judgement. Now I know Ivan will probably search hard for leftie articles to rebuff what I say but for me the overall picture Labour have created is quite disturbing....

The UK's education levels and standards have dropped and no amount of exam fiddling will change the fact that too many of our youngsters are not well equiped for the working world, with many unemployable. To cover up this fact Labour opened the door to mass immigration...no even went out and searched for more immigrants to cover the short fall. This has led to wage levels for non skilled and manual workers being kept low...The very people Labour are supposed to represent. Anyone who questioned the levels of immigration was instantly labelled a Bigot (see Gordon Brown) or a racist.

We now have a dependency culture...Ivan will disagree, but even he knows its true...Just watch 'Skint' on channel 4 Monday at 9pm. Its simple...If you let bleeding heart lefties tell these people its not their fault and remove all personal responsibility from people, then they will always find someone else to blame for their woes rather than work hard to improve their lot.

There are a lot of people who are completely fed up with being taken for granted and being taken for fools by the 3 main parties. They are fed up with the bureacracy from the EU, the levels of immigration, the failure to deal with illegal immigrants, the out of touch politicians from all parties who abuse their position, their expenses and lie to us at every opportunity. None will give a straight answer to a simple questions.....

'Dear politician, please can you tell me what day it is'?

Politician 'Well what are saying is that it doesn't matter what day it is because tomorrow is just another day'

Labour will blame the tories for something and the tories will blame Labour for the other...when in reality neither does anything about the issues, apart from trying to pas the buck...IE... Social housing, NHS, Banking crisis, Boarder controls, deportation of foreign criminals, expenses scandal, job creation, tax avoidance, party donations, the deficit....and the list goes on

It's becomming quite clear that the elctorate is fed up with 'all of the above' and I guarentee if the real lefties had someone else to vote for, they would probably not be voting for Labour.

Don't get me wrong, the Tories and the Lib dems are no better. If there was an election tomorrow I would be voting UKIP. At least Farage speaks our language and be that I mean he's a straight talker....there's no BS whether you agree with him or not

Bluey, Under "New" Labour we had a continuation of Margaret Thatcher's right wing low income tax deregulated free market. We did not have a "Labour" Government under Tony Blair. Also under Tony Blair we were part of Europe, we had, and still have, "freedom of movement in employment", which still means we can go and work in Europe, as well as Eastern European's coming to work here.

The State of Britain today is not due to immigrants, or immigration. Its due to the British people who have allowed a right wing agenda to attack British living standards since the 80's, over 30 years ago because of apathy, indifference, and a me me me attitude.

We have a dependency culture now in this country because people need means tested benefits whether they are working or not. We havent had any council houses built since Margaret Thatcher stopped building them in the 80's over 30 years ago, and it's housing costs that are a major reason for our benefit culture, and we have the lowest minimum wage compared to Europe.

Like all Tories bluey, you see what you want to see, without any constructive thought, or political knowledge. Just knee jerk rubbish.

Ivanhoe

Boatlady….Some facts for you….not just opinions

UK schools slip down global table

UK secondary school students have slipped down an international league table of reading and maths standards.
Based on test results in 2006, the UK has lost the top 10 positions it held for both subjects seven years ago.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7115692.stm

England falls in reading league

The reading performance of children in England has fallen from third to 19th in the world in a major assessment.
The Progress in International Reading Literacy Study (Pirls), undertaken every five years, involved children aged about 10 in 40 countries.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7117230.stm

Ending the benefits dependency culture

http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/ending-the-benefits-dependency-culture-7573522.html

Why should I go to work when my benefits are worth ... - Daily Mail
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/.../Sharon-Minkin-refuses-job-better-benefits.ht...

Why work when I can get £42000 in benefits a year AND ... - Daily Mail
www.dailymail.co.uk/.../Peter-Davey-gets-42-000-benefits-year-drives

Why work? I get £30k in benefits boasts scrounging dad | The Sun ...
www.thesun.co.uk/.../Why-work-I-get-30k-in-benefits-boasts-scrounging-d...
Oct 28, 2012 – But Paul, who has two older children from a previous relationship, bragged: “Why should I work when we can live on benefits? I don't care if I go

'Working is not worth it' Benefits mum rakes in £70,000 in welfare ...
www.express.co.uk › News › UK‎
Mar 27, 2013 – “I have totted up our benefits package and I would have to earn ... for nothing and have been offered jobs but financially they do not work out

Edited for severe breach of copyright. If you took the trouble to read the rules on our welcome board or the notice board, you'd know that copied extracts must not exceed 14-15 lines. What you posted was 36 lines long. The link is sufficient to make your point:-
http://socialwelfare.bl.uk/subject-areas/government-issues/welfare-state/cabinetoffice/135897web-poverty-report.pdf
Ivan.

That's interesting to read that the Daily Mail, The Sun, and The Express all think similarly. No mention though of the inevitable effect that frequent changes of Education policy must have upon schoolgoers.

The Press are also still busily resisting the Leveson recommendation for an independent Press Complaints body. What have they got to fear?

Thanks OW - was beginning to feel all depressed - Blue - EVIDENCE is respectable FACTUAL information from a variety of sources, backed up by research, statistics and reputable theoretical sources.

A set of quotes from a umber of right wing newspapers and a bit of a report from a right wing government doesn't really cut it, in my opinion.

You're entitled to your opinion - if you want me to agree with you, please provide some information I can have respect for.

BLUE I see you are using quotes from the Daily Fail and the Sun the same Daily Fail that used the guy that killed his six kids in a house fire to CLASS ALL BENEFIT CLAIMANTS the same as that diabolical excuse for a humane being, as for the Sun the same paper that vilefied the Hillsborough victims more than likely on the say-so of the then gov't (that is yet to be verified through the inquiry into Hillsborough) if the papers referring to this have not not been destroyed.

Both of these newspapers I would not wipe my butt with they are not fit even for that, I prefer the Guardian Independent or the DM if I wish ro read NEWS and not have to wade through Bullshit to get to the truth even the Telegraph can sometimes have good stories.

As for the benefits claimants just remember who PARKED THEM THERE Mrs Thatcher when she had over 3Million unemployed thanks to her economic Ideology, and her reply to the promblem "Unemployment is a Price Worth Paying" so welfare benefits is not just a Labour problem it all stems from the Thatcher era, so do not forget to share out the blame where it belongs, and yes Labour should of done something about it in 1997-2010 but all that Cameron and Osborne are doing is fcuking adding to the unemployment figures and most of them are being PARKED on WORKFARE so the true unemployment figures are not true facts, That plus the part-time work and zero hour contracts I bet the real unemployment figures if known would be eye watering.

Redflag

A set of quotes from a umber of right wing newspapers and a bit of a report from a right wing government doesn't really cut it, in my opinion

You would hardly expect the Leftie rags to report these facts would you? Not a chance in hell would they even dare. It wouldn't sit well with their ideology

blueturando wrote:

A set of quotes from a umber of right wing newspapers and a bit of a report from a right wing government doesn't really cut it, in my opinion

You would hardly expect the Leftie rags to report these facts would you? Not a chance in hell would they even dare. It wouldn't sit well with their ideology

The same way the right wing papers will not report the TRUTH about the deficit, THAT THREE QUARTERS OF WHAT WE OWE IS DOWN TO BORROWING TO BAIL OUT THE BANKS
deny that if your brazen enough blue.

You would hardly expect the Leftie rags to report these facts would you? Not a chance in hell would they even dare. It wouldn't sit well with their ideology

Interestingly enough, there are others apart from newspapers who investigate social and political issues - academic institutioons for example - even if one doesn't want to delve into academe, however, it's worth looking for a range of opinions and reports of an issue, in the interest of reaching a balanced view.
I agree, there are newspapers that have a left-wing bias - but that doesn't mean that the right wing bias of the Mail, the Express, the Sun and the Telegraph constitutes a balanced view.

There is a wealth of information out there, some of it even interested in the facts.

Bluey, Do you truly, in your heart, believe all that you write here ?

Ivanhoe

Papaumau wrote:As I see it, it seems that many governments of the past have come into power simply because the people at the bottom end of society don't usually vote.

Now that this coalition government - bolstered by the traitorous Lib-Dems - have spent the last year or more attacking this demographic, does anybody think that the poor and the sick and the old and the disabled, that have been deliberately targeted by this government will finally get up off their behinds and vote this cruel lot down ?

When one considers that what with the dastardly attacks that the ATOS hit-men have made on these people and that the introduction of the bedroom tax will also hit the same section of society, do the members of Cutting Edge think that this particular "worm" is going to turn at last ?

If not, what should be done to ensure that these people get out of their apathy and vote for what they need out of their government ?

Papa, why do you believe we have poor people in this country ?

Ivanhoe

blueturando wrote:-
We now have a dependency culture...Ivan will disagree, but even he knows its true... Some facts for you….not just opinions

What a shame you can't tell the difference between facts and opinions, as you've so clearly demonstrated in your recent posts. I’ve read enough facts to know that we don’t have a dependency culture; producing grubby little anecdotes from the gutter press doesn’t prove anything. Those papers have their agenda and then go out looking for isolated examples, however extreme, which they then claim ‘prove’ their points. Sadly, people like you seem too thick to see through that, or maybe it just suits your own prejudices against the sick, the poor and the disabled to go along with it.

It’s the same mentality that uses the Philpott case to imply that all benefit claimants set fire to their children when they're asleep. It's the same mentality that uses events like the brutal murder of a soldier by two evil individuals as an excuse to vilify all Moslems; I see that mosques were attacked last night in Braintree and Gillingham. As soon as a non-white person commits a crime, the EDL (whose leader Tommy Robinson has endorsed your favourite party, UKIP) come out on the streets to demonstrate what racist bastards they are. When will they protest about all these white celebrity paedophiles, I wonder? I won’t hold my breath.

Don’t you ever learn? You tried to justify your lie previously by posting us a link to an article about dependency culture which, on closer examination, turned out to be about the myth of dependency culture! Not content with shooting yourself in the foot on that occasion, you try again. ‘The London Evening Standard’ entitles one of its editorials 'ending the dependency culture', and you try to pass that off as a fact. That’s merely the opinion of the editor a right-wing paper that was once described on Twitter as “so far up Boris Johnson’s arse that you can read the headlines when he opens his mouth”. (And if that paper was really interested in “making work pay”, it would campaign for a living wage, instead of supporting right-wing politicians who want to abolish the minimum wage.)

These are not opinions, these are facts:-

Fact: In the decade prior to the recession, spending on benefits had shown the longest period of stability in the history of the welfare state.

Fact: Out-of-work benefit receipt has been in long-term decline and is half a million lower now than in the aftermath of the last recession.

Fact: Out-of-work benefits account for less than a quarter of welfare spending and just over half of non-pensioner spending.

Fact: Families with more than five children account for 1% of out-of-work benefit claims.

Fact: Only 0.3% of households have two generations that have never worked.

Fact: For the vast majority of families, taking a paid job would leave them significantly better off than receiving benefits.

Fact: Most out of work benefit claims are not long term in nature.

The sources, in some instances including the DWP’s own statistics, which prove the above facts to be true (and not somebody’s opinions), can all be found in this document:-

http://www.turn2us.org.uk/pdf/Mythbusting.pdf

Anyone who questioned the levels of immigration was instantly labelled a Bigot (see Gordon Brown)

One person was called a bigot by one politician, and suddenly that becomes “anyone”. What an utterly dishonest way of presenting an argument; 2 + 2 = 200, does it?

One snapshot from 2006, based on the test results of just a few thousand 10-year-olds, is not statistically significant, though it shouldn’t be ignored. Of course there’s never any attempt to look for possible reasons behind the story, such as the number of immigrant children who don’t speak English in their homes. Instead, it’s just used as a stick by people like you to blame Labour, who doubled spending on education. Think how much worse things would have been if the Tories had stayed in power after 1997, continuing their policy of running state schools and hospitals into the ground.

And what have we got now? Gove, an ideological maniac, a Murdoch hack who knows nothing about education, trying to turn the clock back to the 1950s, when history teaching consisted of the rote learning of lists of facts (‘kings and things’) rather than the acquisition of skills; that’s ‘dumbing down’. All Gove is really interested in is raising the bar so that more schools fail and can be privatised. I see his boss Murdoch is interested in owning schools now, no doubt so that he can start indoctrinating fools like you from an early age. I wouldn’t be surprised if Murdoch insisted that his opinions should be taught as facts, but then you wouldn’t notice the difference anyway.

Ivanhoe wrote:Bluey, Do you truly, in your heart, believe all that you write here ?

Ivanhoe

From his posts that I have read the answer to your question is yes Ivanhoe, his idea is all that is printed in the right wing bias newspapers is the Ultimate truth when in reality is only spin mixed up with Tory Ideology.

Redflag wrote:

Ivanhoe wrote:Bluey, Do you truly, in your heart, believe all that you write here ?

Ivanhoe

From his posts that I have read the answer to your question is yes Ivanhoe, his idea is all that is printed in the right wing bias newspapers is the Ultimate truth when in reality is only spin mixed up with Tory Ideology.

Its hard to believe Redflag, he seems such a nice chap.

Ivanhoe

Ivanhoe at one time I thought (wrongly) he was OK for a Tory he seemed to be very fair but of late that has all changed.

A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many bad measures.

Daniel Webster
US diplomat, lawyer, orator, & politician (1782 - 1852)

Let's kick uglism out of politics

Extracts from an amusing article by David Schneider:-

I'm sure most politicians would change their face if it would win them an election (most of them have got two anyway). Everyone from seven-year-olds who look crap on school photo day to Neil Kinnock arse-over-tipping on the beach knows that images can be devastating. Or redeeming. Remember that footage of Gordon Brown leaving Downing Street for the last time, hand-in-hand with his two little kids?

Was Labour's struggle in the 80s and 90s to make themselves electable just about finding a leader who was reasonably hot (if you'll forgive me for making you think of Blair in those terms)? Not so much clause IV as clause phwoar. It's the dental work, stupid, not the economy.

Of course, Cameron is no Ryan Gosling when it comes to looks. He can't be much more than a six, even to his wife – even to a Tory shires lady who really hates badgers. Clegg was maybe a seven just before the last election and a three after it. At best. Which all sounds a bit shallow, and yet that's how people seem to be judging Miliband. I suspect that one reason the accusations of weakness and indecision stick to him, even though he has often showed considerable boldness (Murdoch, Syria, the unions, fratricide), is because his body language seems so apologetic. It seems that people who would never dream of not voting for someone because they were black or gay feel it is all right to not vote for someone because they "don't look right".

For the whole article:-
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/22/kick-uglism-out-politics-david-schneider