Is the NHS really safe in Tory hands?

First topic message reminder :

Here is a news item from North Yorkshire which never made it onto the national headlines

A York-based practice has written to its patients offering them a range of minor treatments privately, claiming they are not funded by the local NHS.

Doctors' leaders said this could be the start of a worrying trend due to the squeeze on finances and NHS overhaul.

The letter, seen by the BBC, said local health chiefs had stopped funding a range of services, but added they could still have them done privately at a number of clinics, including one owned by the practice.

These included removing skin tags from £56.30 to treating benign tumours for £243.20.

Dr Richard Vautrey, of the British Medical Association, added: "The dire finances of many trusts means that many more NHS treatments are likely to become unavailable in the future".

Most working people ( wage earners ) pay tax to the government, but the deductions from our pay is to two different funds, the main one been Income Tax, the other is called "National Insurance", and it is this fund which goes towards our health care.

Witchfinder,

These collections go into one treasury pot, along with your road tax, VAT collections and fag, booze and fuel duty! + ALL the other collections that are accrued.

Many people have shouted for the moneys to be kept separate and accountable separately, (Hypothecation) but no! this has always been disdainfully turned down by the Mandrins, suits and spivs, slickers and other troughites!

"Deliberately or not, the NHS is being set up for failure."
Extracts from an article by Cathy Warwick, Chief Executive of the Royal College of Midwives:-

The Health and Social Care Bill was not only absent from the coalition deal between the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats, but specifically ruled out by it. In their programme for government, they agreed to "stop the top-down reorganisations of the NHS". Put simply, there is no democratic mandate for it.

The health service is facing some real challenges in the next few years as it has to achieve unprecedented efficiency targets with a frozen budget and growing demands on its services. Being required simultaneously to cope with those pressures and the unnecessary, bureaucratic and costly distraction of the reforms proposed in the bill is too much.

We have not heard anything that convinces us that the changes are necessary. The case has not been made. We remain unconvinced too that the changes will result in improvements in care. And we are disappointed that the legitimate fears and concerns expressed by health professionals and patients have not been addressed.

As things stand, we face subjecting the NHS to full-blown competition and market forces at a time when those very same forces have thrown our economy onto the edge of the abyss. Why take the greed that almost destroyed our entire economy and choose to inject it directly into the heart of the NHS?

For the full article and some very interesting reader comments:-
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"Deliberately or not, the NHS is being set up for failure."

Hello Ivan,


I cannot but see that the NHS is going to follow onto that other great Tory fiasco the Railway system of the UK!

Is the NHS is heading for the "perfect storm"? or are the B.M.A wrong?

Dr Hamish Meldrum, who spent much of his career at a medical practice in East Yorkshire and is now resident in Edinburgh, is the head of the British Medical Association (BMA) - and his assessment of the coalition government's reform programme is devastating.

He is anxious that the principles of "universality" and "comprehensives", on which the NHS was founded, are imperilled by the fantasy of the Health and Social Care Bill and the creation of a utopian marketplace in which private providers compete with state care. "We are facing a perfect storm, or should that be an imperfect storm," Meldrum says. The "perfect storm", as he outlines it, is this - "impossible efficiency savings being forced on the service", the biggest reorganisation in the NHS's history, "rising medical unemployment", "pay cuts for doctors", "increased waiting lists" and the fear that the strain on the service will lead to more disasters such as the one at Mid Staffordshire NHS Trust.

“The health-care system is being asked to make £20bn of efficiency savings," he says gravely. "In real terms that's savings of 4% year on year, which has never been done in one year before, far less four years in a row. And you've now added into the mix a major structural reorganisation, with lots of people either losing or changing their jobs; or their minds being focused on the reorganisation rather than on making the savings. We are facing various levels of impossibility."

by Jason Cowley

For the full article:-
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Edited to comply with copyright laws. Unless permission is obtained from the publisher, extracts from articles should not exceed 14-15 lines. Thank you. Ivan

Lansley has increased the number of quangos in the NHS from 163 to 521 as he continues his destruction of the service, which nobody apart from a doctor in Doncaster wants and for which the Tories have no mandate whatsoever.

Oh how the times have changed! How the Tories used to complain about the number of quangos and promise us "a bonfire". Of course these are Tory quangos so that it makes it okay. The words 'Tory' and 'hypocrite' have become synonymous.

The important aspect of current debate over the NHS is the fact that it divides on Political lines.

Why on earth should there be a POLITICAL dimension to the Nation's health and well-being? Are they all mad up in Westminster?

If one party subscribes to the dogma that everything is better in private hands, while another one doesn't, then any issue relating to a public service will inevitably divide along political lines.

In the case of the NHS, there is the added dimension that four private healthcare firms donated £750 million to the Tories between them, and one made a further contribution to Lansley's private office. Now it's payback time - regardless of what's best for the NHS, regardless of what medical practitioners think, and regardless of what the Tories promised in the last general election.

Apparently the current leader in the race for Republican candidate for the US Presidency expects to get through a further £10,000,000 in campaign funds before the decision is reached.

How long can it be before British elections are decided by the amount of money spent on each candidate?

Shirina wrote:It sounds a bit like sabotage. The Tories will simply gut NHS to the point where people will actually want privatized medicine. Reduce the number of available treatments here, increase the wait times there ... fiddle, fiddle, fiddle ... and before you know it, enough people may get fed up enough with NHS that they, themselves, will push for privatization.

Only take this from someone who lives in a nation without NHS ... don't EVER privatize or you'll be paying more for your insurance premiums than you do on your house and car combined. And that's no joke. Conservative Americans might try to hoodwink you into believing that you can get an affordable policy for $200/month ... and you can. It's just that it doesn't cover anything important. The cost of health care will end up shifted to you and to your employer ... and if your employer has to pay exorbitant costs to cover you, guess what'll happen. Can we say pink slips in the mail? Can we say stagnant job growth?

My father has to pay over $1300 per month to cover himself and his wife. Imagine if he still had young children to cover, as well! One of my friends pays no less than 25% of her pay check *every week* to cover her health care, and even simple blood tests are *not* covered under this policy. It's a lesson in chaos since you never quite know what insurance will pay for and what it won't.

Remember - the insurance industry is the only business on the planet that makes money by *not* providing you with the services you pay for.

I suppose its the same as when Maggie sold the Gas Electric trains and phone it was friends and family of the Tories party that bought the shares and there was quite a few caught with there hands in the cookie jar trying to buy more than what was allowed by the rules governing this, and I see the NHS going the same way the friends family of the Tory party are standing in the background rubbing there hands in glee at making Millions or even Billions off our NHS that will be NO MORE if we allow this Bill to go though we know the medical profession are against it and I think they are the only ones that can stop this from going ahead by Strike action and I mean all and let the Gov't provide the private sector nurses to cover while there out on strike because normally the NHS provides nurse to leave some staff on duty to cover for the sake of there patients but that has to change to stop this Bill from becoming law.

Let nobody be in doubt that private medical insurance has a strong profit motive. Premiums are quite reasonable for young people, but increase as the policyholder gets older, and ultimately someone who has made too many claims will not be invited to renew the annual policy.

Ivan wrote:I wonder how the Tory supporters on this forum will defend all this? The fragmentation and privatisation of the NHS is going to leave it in a similar bloody mess to that which the railways found themselves in on the last occasion that the nasty (sorry, evil) party was in power.

One element missing from current discussions of the Health and Social Care Bill is a straightforward account of what will happen if it becomes law. Please read on:-
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First I do not wish too Offend any one on this forum and if this post sounds rude of offensive I apologize, If England does not wake up and smell the COFFEE you will not have a NHS free at the point of need this includes NHS staff from the bottom to the top Consultants, I think you all have seen the advert on TV the one where the guy whips of and replaces the tablecloth without upsetting or spilling anything, the company is UNUM an American company offering Insurance for when you need money if you take seriously Ill (Cancer and other serious illnesses) why advertise in the UK we have our NHS maybe they know what Scam..er..on and Landsley are up too or have been involved in the NHS Care Bill?

Just so you all know this company are having problems in the U.S.A they will take your premiums but not pay out the SMALL PRINT says it all.

It's difficult to escape a sensation that by the end of this Coalition Parliament's term in office, the Tories will have gained everything they wanted to gain in the 1980s before being so rudely interrupted by that Blair fellow.

I hope our Tory posters are proud of Lansley, who has already awarded and signed contracts to his Tory donors before his bloody legislation has received the Royal Assent. Sheer corruption. I don't suppose it's even legal, but the members of this evil government are too arrogant to care about things like that. And where are the Liberal Democrats while this destruction of the NHS takes place? Invisible as usual.

Here's a very powerful video on this subject:-
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Funny innit!! How the Politicos ALWAYS bend the rules to suit themselves, AND get a bit MORE outa that big schllurping trough!

See how Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights is used in this hacking enquiry,

Yet I went to great lengths to say how wrong that I (alone) thought it was that this article does not apply IN LAW to the old people in Private Nursing Homes. I did disturb just a few pixels on this last year.

The import of my post?
When you Torys are ensconsed in yer private room with yer private French Maid whoops er Nursey! you have no redress to the human rights act!! What goes round comes round, as the sick and unemployed are having any rights whittled away steadily and silently by this bunch of of well, yes I'll say it - FACISTS


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"Mr Tomlinson said the claimants and the Met had agreed a "declaration" - in which the Met admits it breached its duties under Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights.

Law firm Bindmans, for the claimants, said in a statement that the declaration "constitutes an admission by the police that their failure to warn victims that their privacy was or may have been unlawfully invaded was a breach of Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights".

That article provides that "everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence".

Lord Prescott said in a statement: "It's taken me 19 months to finally get justice. Time and time again I was told by the Metropolitan Police that I had not been targeted by Rupert Murdoch's News of the World.

Andrew Lansley insists that he will "press on" with the NHS reforms despite the fact that three Conservative cabinet ministers are deeply concerned about the effect the reforms could have at the next general election.

Meanwhile several bloggers on the website "ConservativeHome" including one of the editors have also voiced grave concerns about the bill, it has been openly described as been "electorally fatal".

Many grass roots Conservatives are in almost rebellion, comparing the governments Health Bill to the Poll Tax.

The (Liberal) Leader of Newcastle City Council (Liberal) has said that a "compromise" will have to be found for lansley, cameron, and clegg to allow an about turn! He said on todays lunch time news, that changes to the NHS, like reducung the number of "secretaties" etc did not need a change in legislation.

Come on chaps! Let's pull together!

It's obvious that Cameron would by now seize any excuse to forget NHS Reform in a credible manner.

Can't anybody think of a face-saving formula for delaying change for about five years?

I suggest they make the Ministry of Defence responsible. That shower haven't achieved anything since the end of WW2.

YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Bushido




HARI KIRI - Seppuku

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Though the Samurai did have an honour ethic in their dicipline belief, the present bunch in Westminster would not know Honour, even if Miss Blackman slapped them in the face!!

Wasn't that Joanna Lumley who slapped Westminster?
Oh, a different bunch of wallies.
It's so difficult to keep up, you can't tell the difference.
It's not only the Expenses Claims that don't change.

The growing row about the NHS 'reforms' is deliciously difficult for the Tories. It becomes even more tricky foir Cameron every time that the soppy Lansley reminds us that the PM is right behind the changes. It cannot be long before Dave is forced - through sheer self-preservation - to find a formula for blaming his Secretary of State. The favourite get -out is the accusation which implies that all is well with the essence of the proposals, but that the 'message has not been put across sufficiently well'.

But there remains the fact that an increasing number of people - including some high-ranking Tory Ministers and other MPs -are getting the jittters. It is not that they wouldn't like to see the NHS dismantled, of course - they hope, as all Tories, that such an outcome can be achieved. But when it has the potential to cause damage to the chances of their re-election, it all starts to look singularly unattractive.

It must be taking every waking hour of somebody's time deep in Central Office to find a scapegoat for all the present public concern - and it may be that Limp Lansley is the only option. Any moment now he may be told to drop his trousers and have a large needle inserted somewhere very painful...

Any moment now he may be told to drop his trousers and have a large needle inserted somewhere very painful

And I suspect you would find no shortage of doctors, nurses, midwives and therapists willing to oblige!

I'll do the job myself, provided a pair of rubber gloves is available and the needle is an especially long and rusty one.

Bend over and take it like a man , Lansley....!

Brings tears to the eyes!

You're rotten, you lot! They're only trying to make a (dis-) honest living.

especially long and rusty one.

BLUNT -- It needs to hurt

Oh , believe me - it would...!

Here is one of the reasons he is so desperate to reform the NHS.

While in opposition as health spokesman, Andrew Lansley accepted a donation of £21,000 from John Nash, the chairman of private healthcare provider Care UK and founder of the private equity fund Sovereign Capital, which owns several other private healthcare companies, to help fund his private office, leading to allegations of a conflict of interest. Such companies stand to be the biggest beneficiaries of Conservative policies to increase the use of private health providers within the NHS.------ Wikipedia extract.

Need more be said???

Hopefully it's the night of the long knifes.

OOOOOOOOOOOH


"Blood on the Carpet" soon, one hopes!

Surely something akin to a 50% reduction in all our NI payments should be in order if Lansley's proposals go ahead..........fat chance of it happening though!

This has just been posted on 'Twitter' by someone who calls himself Troy Tempest:-
"Of course Cameron is right behind Lansley, it's the best place to be if you're going to give someone the push."

Phil Hornby wrote:Oh , believe me - it would...!

PH and astra can I get my shot I promise to make it as painful as I can Do you think that they will drop this Bill or plod on with it ?

Ivan wrote:I hope our Tory posters are proud of Lansley, who has already awarded and signed contracts to his Tory donors before his bloody legislation has received the Royal Assent. Sheer corruption. I don't suppose it's even legal, but the members of this evil government are too arrogant to care about things like that. And where are the Liberal Democrats while this destruction of the NHS takes place? Invisible as usual.

Here's a very powerful video on this subject:-
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In regard to contracts Thatcher done the same thing when she was selling our public services Gas Electric Phone and Trains so there is no difference there, they where sold at knock down prices to Tory Donors, and if you look at what has happened with the PIP implants that will happen again and the NHS will be left to pick up the Court Bill and then to put everything right so I hope Scam..er..on and Landsley have got Billions to pay for the neglect that will more than likely happen once the private sector take over our NHS.

Ivan did you see that Asian GP that will be sending back his Tory party membership to Scam..er..on it was on the early evening News because even the party faithful do not believe in Landsleys Bill.

Now must be the time to issue Herr Cameron and Lansley a proscription, and I don’t mean the type issued to sick patience by their GP. I mean the sort written by Lucius Cornelius Sulla, Marcus Antonius, Marcus Aemilius Lepidus and Gaius Julius Caesar Augustus. In Rome 1 BC, anyone on the proscription list was fair game for anyone to attack, kill and keep their goods and property.

Oh what fun.

Hello Bobby (I can see you are well, firing on all cylinders! )


Some of the young'uns will be accusing us of looking to the past again!!

Roll it on!

The NHS in Tory hands is DEFINATELY not safe, and putting 49% in the hands of private health sector is privatization by the back door what will happen is the 51% of the health sector that remains in the hands of the NHS will be bit by bit more and more will be transfered into the private health sector until one day we turn around and find that the NHS is no longer there as we knew it,  so if your out of work through the cuts or are in a low paid job you will have to go back to your granny's home remedies.

If there is not some one in charge of the NHS that cares really cares about the NHS and what happens to it we are dead in the water if this bill becomes LAW.

Part of the Tory propaganda is that when in Power Labour used the private sector. This was reiterated just this AM, by Eric (Jabba the knut) Pickles, and of course he was right, they did. What the Tory’s don’t tell us, is that Labour had to use private medicine to reduce the fatal waiting lists created by the Bitch Thatcher. Some of the practice was continued because it was found to be cheaper to use some specialist clinics that to establish new clinics which would probably be underused to replace them. And of course Labour gets castigated almost on a daily basis for doing so.

Tory Ideology at its worse. They privatise industries knowing it will be very difficult and costly to re-Nationalise. So instead or re-Nationalising existing company’s, why not re construct only this time Government owned, and let them go into direct competition with the existing private company’s. To re-Nationalise the existing company’s would not be viable as each and every one of them where run down before the sell off, making the original share prices very attractive, and set to rise very quickly, as they indeed did.

At present we have Privatised utilities holding us to ransom over prices, not only that we the taxpayers are still having to subsidise them in order for the share holders to receive their pots of gold.

Build our own utilities, pay staff a decent wage as opposed to shareholders premiums, take away the subsidies we are now paying the Current Utilities, then see what the share prices of the Private company’s are in a couple of years on.

Probably a pipe dream, but it helps me sleep.

When talking about Labour using the private sector, as Bobby points out, to help cut waiting list they also fail to say that the Thatch used Military Hospitals back in 1981 to cut waiting lists.....I remember the QE at Woolwich running it's opperating theaters 24 hours a day for 3 weeks solid to help her out.........

bobby wrote:Part of the Tory propaganda is that when in Power Labour used the private sector. This was reiterated just this AM, by Eric (Jabba the knut) Pickles, and of course he was right, they did. What the Tory’s don’t tell us, is that Labour had to use private medicine to reduce the fatal waiting lists created by the Bitch Thatcher. Some of the practice was continued because it was found to be cheaper to use some specialist clinics that to establish new clinics which would probably be underused to replace them. And of course Labour gets castigated almost on a daily basis for doing so.

I see you talking about 5 chins and 10 bellies Pickles bobby that is something they will not say the reason Labour brought in the private sector because it would show the last Tory Gov't for what they had done to the NHS starving it of money so waiting times where disgraceful it came out that people where dying before they had a chance to see a consultant/doctor and too build new hospitals so that when you went into hospital you did not come out with something nasty.

Your also right about the Utilities the big six that are holding us to ransom over prices they are charging an arm and a leg so that the directors get there big bonuses and the shareholders large dividends, and this Tory led Gov't is doing S.F.A about it because more than likely its there friends and family that are the shareholders of the Utilities.

astradt1 wrote:When talking about Labour using the private sector, as Bobby points out, to help cut waiting list they also fail to say that the Thatch used Military Hospitals back in 1981 to cut waiting lists.....I remember the QE at Woolwich running it's opperating theaters 24 hours a day for 3 weeks solid to help her out.........

Why then Astradt, are the current bunch allowing facilities like the fully furnished Hospital at the disused RAF Upper Heyford Base to lie empty, not even fallow!

Long runways and heli pads already in place, a facility for countrywide use, and the Oxford/Banbury area needs all the help it can get - like anywhere else while this miasma persists!


If there is asbestos in the place, there is no great problem in moving it!

Please go to google earth, and look at the photos of the place - not unlike Ninewells Dundee (just much much smaller!) - seemingly built about the same time.

Astra, if you check you will find that most of the Military hospitals were closed under Majors government.......

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bobby wrote:Now must be the time to issue Herr Cameron and Lansley a proscription, and I don’t mean the type issued to sick patience by their GP. I mean the sort written by Lucius Cornelius Sulla, Marcus Antonius, Marcus Aemilius Lepidus and Gaius Julius Caesar Augustus. In Rome 1 BC, anyone on the proscription list was fair game for anyone to attack, kill and keep their goods and property.

Oh what fun.

When your having lots of fun bobby please keep me in mind I would wet myself laughing if I was allowed to join in.