Is needing or wanting to worship a God a human defect or benefit?

First topic message reminder :

Is needing or wanting to worship a God a human defect or benefit?
 
Gods have no needs or wants that man can assuage. Gods are said to be so high above us that for any God to have such a need would be like man craving the adoration of germs.
 
I see us as just as foolish as germs and the creatures shown in this clip as we act the same way.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4a_uwyY_H4
 
I can see where at one time it would have been profitable to bend the knee to King/Gods as in the original archetype city states, as used in the original Eden myth written by the Jews, but not today.
 
That myth I think was written of the following reality.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZ9cvYB7Tes
 
Our present secular systems of governance have bested the Gods in the moral and legal senses and only the really right wing theists would want to live under the laws of the old barbaric Gods.
 
I am not an atheist and seek God to appease what I recognize as my spiritual side. But not to bend the knee or adore; just to improve any defect in my thinking; if I have one.  
 
I know that there are way more followers out there than leaders but cannot fathom why someone would want to lower themselves to adore even a God unless it is strictly as a self-serving action that we hope God will recognize and reward.
 
That is hardly being good for goodness sake. God would know and send such hypocrites to hell. Which scriptures say is where the vast majority of us will end up regardless.
 
That means that you, even if you pray daily and hard, are likely going to hell along with most of those you know. In a sense, you should feel sorry for those few who make it to heaven as they must spend eternity watching their loved ones in purposeless torture. That would drive any moral person insane.
 
Gods have no needs or wants and has no rewards to give in exchange for what Gods have no need or want of.
 
The Godhead I know certainly disavows such a need or want.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkT1-N0VqUc
 
 
Why then, if you are a believer, do you need or want to worship a God if not for the reward you think it will bring you?
 
Is your need to adore a God a defect or benefit?
 
Regards
DL

:bounce: 

Can you poke someone on public forum in front of god and everyone.....????

:afraid:

Right, why aren't the emoticons working now hmmmmmm???

Hello Stu,

Exactly Tosh, I really do not believe that JP reads his posts before he posts them, if he did then I am sure that he would hopefully realise what utter tripe he is putting out for us to read.

I am sure they read our posts, usually fundamentalists have what Daniel Dennett describes as " a belief in belief ", the benefits of their beliefs so outweigh the benefits of empiricism and logic they denounce them both.

However when you introduce real knowledge with real evidence such as common ancestry, they will automatically deny this is knowledge and evidence on empirical and logical grounds !!

But they are not stupid people, they are psychologically predisposed to believing their beliefs are knowledge and evidence based, and cannot help distorting empiricism and logic to protect their belief.

Evening Snowy,

Behave woman.

snowyflake wrote: 

Can you poke someone on public forum in front of god and everyone.....????

*pokes Snowyflake*

Yep.

Sorry to hear that Shirina, the amount of tablets that I have to take makes me rattle when I walk haha. I love the old pc but must take breaks from it because of my condition. When I see my neurologist it's the same story, sorry stu nothing new for you. Is that the same with you Shirina?

JP,

Do you believe Jesus is God?

If so was he talking to himself on the cross?

“Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?”

I used to be an old Jewish woman called Edna and I pointed out to many Christians, Jesus was a Jew and all Jews referred to themselves as sons of God, it was not a claim to divinity, the demi-god concept was a pagan element introduced to sell Christianity to pagans throughout the Roman Empire. They could relate better to a demi-god dying for them rather than a Jew killed by Romans for sedition, the latter wasn't going to attract many converts.

Stu,

To be fair Shirina can talk utter guff sometimes without tablets, keep her away from ghosts and UFOs or I am off to lie down in a dark room.

stu wrote:Sorry to hear that Shirina, the amount of tablets that I have to take makes me rattle when I walk haha. I love the old pc but must take breaks from it because of my condition. When I see my neurologist it's the same story, sorry stu nothing new for you. Is that the same with you Shirina?

Yeah, it is exactly the same.

I'm on so many medications now that I haul it all out in a shopping bag when I get refills. If I don't take at least 800 mgs of Neurontin and 40 mgs of Ultram every six hours, I'll be howling in pain by hour seven. I've seen two neurologists, a podiatrist and at least a dozen other doctors and no one knows why I have it. I am perfectly healthy in every other respect -- and there's nothing new, just like you said. All I can do is gulp down pills and hope they work.

Of course, curing some of these conditions isn't at all profitable for the Big Pharmaceutical companies, so they'll instead focus on making erections last longer and ignore real medicine.

Tosh wrote:keep her away from ghosts and UFOs or I am off to lie down in a dark room.

He has to lie down in a dark room because of the verbal ass-whooping I always give Tosh when we debate on those subjects.   

I would be more willing to consider the ghost phenomena if someone could actually explain to me what a ghost is supposed to be.

Shirina wrote:I know what you mean about "prior to my illness" as I'm the same way. I have a neurological condition that limits just how much I can type, and the medicine I take can cause me to scramble words, omit words, and make egregious spelling errors. I have to proof read very carefully before I hit the "send" button ... and even then I don't always catch all of my mistakes. Before I was hit with this illness, I was extremely precise and rarely spelled a word wrong. Now ... meh ... between the pain and the medication, I've gotten a bit lazier.

I have a problem with medication too but nothing like the problem I have without it. Drowsiness seem to be the biggest problem for me and I have been told that I cannot work for another two years as I would be "a danger to myself and others in the workplace" by a government benefits appeal tribunal. The number of times I have to stop what I'm writing because I have so totally lost the drift of what I was saying is just silly. Pain is not funny but sometimes I just am in such need to think clearly that I miss them out for a few days and then pay the price of having to wait for them to kick in again.

Meditation, Mindfulness and Relaxation can all help conquer pain for short periods but they are also quite time consuming that the benefit that you get from using them is only short lived. The best non medication treatment that I have available to me is a Tens machine that sends random (random power, duration and the gap between pulses) electric pulses through my shoulder in order to scramble the pain impulses so they do not register in the brain.

I go to a patient support group called S.M.I.L.E. SMILE that is attached to the Pain Management Program at the Walton Centre. The best support you can have is the support of other people that understand what you are going through because they are going through it too. We meet every Monday and drink a lot of tea or coffee and do some gentle exercise, Tai Chi and relaxation. We spend a lot of time in each others company because people that suffer from chronic pain (pain that doesn't disappear within six months) like other disabled people find that they find that most of their able-bodied friends slowly disappear, either because they have less and less in common with you or that they can't cope with what you're going through. Keep hold of any friends that do stick around because they are the friends you need to treasure. In my case I only have contact with three friends from the time before I was thrown of my bicycle.

Medication can be a problem but sometimes it causes as many problems as it solves, I just wanted to say that there are ways to handle pain but do keep those painkillers handy.

Heretic

I have my medication delivered to my front door, no cost in the uk Shirina. I understand what you mean with regards to the pharmaceutical companies though, my condition started 20years ago. I caught some kind of virus that even now they do not know what it was, 8weeks in intensive care, died twice,etc. Now I have half a brain with a black spot in it and at the base that they do not know what they are.

We have a genetic instruction to survive and prosper, from these genes springs all of our psychological traits, all are mere adaptations of our genetic instructions.
Our consciousness and self awareness almost pushes us toward notions of a surviving SELF, an eternal consciousness. Ghosts are yet another variation of death denial, self awareness is a poisoned chalice when you fill it with finiteness and mortality. Too much fear of imminent death was not conducive to our physical and psychological well being, our survival machine encourages concepts to ease this paralyzing fear.

UFO believers are slightly different, they are realists and naturalists with a weakness for space age mythology, we all like to make our story a little out of the ordinary. Again this comes from our social primate genes to seek status, significance is just one of its many adaptations.

I too am on medication, the current strain is extremely potent....shh....ears have walls.

Heretic wrote:We spend a lot of time in each others company because people that suffer from chronic pain (pain that doesn't disappear within six months) like other disabled people find that they find that most of their able-bodied friends slowly disappear, either because they have less and less in common with you or that they can't cope with what you're going through.

Yeah, I know what that's like. Since you can't really do anything, friends really can't do anything with you. They stop coming to you for the things you were once able to give them. One of my friends said to me once, "I really miss the fact that I could call you up to go see a movie and you were ready to go in minutes." Now I can't go to movies unless I'm having a very good day, and they come and go at random.

I'm just thankful that I have this condition at a time in history where technology is widely available. I can't help but think of what it would be like if I were alive in 1813 or even 1913 and had this condition. All I could do would be to sit in a silent room, unable to function. No television, no movies, no radio, no internet, no computers, no video games, no discussion forums, no cell phones, no Kindles, no iPads .... nothing. The best I could hope for is that I was one of the lucky few who knew how to read so that I may read a book from time to time.

At least now, I have a computer and the internet so I can talk to people all over the world and still keep in touch with distant friends. Plus I can do a bit of writing (which I do from time to time) and play all sorts of games. I have a 50 inch plasma TV in my bedroom and a 400 disc DVD changer with 300+ movies and over a thousand documentaries I've recorded over the past 10 years. I have my entire music collection on my computer, I can watch YouTube videos, hell, for a virtual shut-in, I have a pretty good set-up. It just sucks to be in pain most of the time, and when I'm not, I am always fearful of when it will return.

Vodka,gin,rum,bacardi,? any particular one you like Tosh ahah.

You too are a virtual shut in Shirina? I am too, finding things to keep me busy is the hardest part, but I usually find something.

I do not touch alcohol, leads to heart and liver problems, I prefer to damage my mind rather than my body.

stu,

I like a captive audience, we will be friends, ignore anything bad you may hear about me, just ask Snowy and Shirina for a reference.

I haven't touched alcohol for 20years Tosh, because of my medication. had to give up driving also, but there you go cannot have everything can we ahah.  

Tosh Inever listen to what other people say about folks, i'm old enough and ugly enough to make my own mind up about people. I always tell the truth and speak straight so if you have owt to say say it mate ok.

Shirina wrote:I'm just thankful that I have this condition at a time in history where technology is widely available. I can't help but think of what it would be like if I were alive in 1813 or even 1913 and had this condition. All I could do would be to sit in a silent room, unable to function. No television, no movies, no radio, no internet, no computers, no video games, no discussion forums, no cell phones, no Kindles, no iPads .... nothing. The best I could hope for is that I was one of the lucky few who knew how to read so that I may read a book from time to time.

Yes, I know where your coming from. I rely on modern technology too. It is a boon to me and a curse (I fix peoples PC's for them and I find that as I don't charge them then they take it for granted). I am fortunate as I can get out and about quite easily, that isn't a problem for me, but I know others that are not as lucky as I am and I make a point of going to see them. There is nothing worse than isolation.

Heretic

Tosh is lovely, stu. He's a drug addict due to being a Jewish wheel chair bound paraplegic Vietnam war veteran called Edna.

Tosh and Shirina are my personal favourites. I recommend them highly.

Shirina, this neuralgia you have, has anyone ever discuss surgery with you? There is a condition called transgeminal neuralgia which is characterised by extreme facial pain and they have recently been able to successfully cure someone by surgical repositioning of the nerve. I understand from our previous discussions that this affects you mostly in your hands and fingers, is that right? I'm thinking if they could locate the nerves that perhaps it might be a simple procedure to reposition the affected nerves and stop the pain. I'm not a doctor or anything but I hate to hear about people suffering and I read this recently and thought of you. It might be worth investigating.

BTW I suffer from chronic ear aches and have for decades. It's not infection or anything to do with my teeth or jaw. No one can tell me what it is and it is never painful enough to require intervention,(although sometimes I need painkillers) but it feels like someone is sticking a hot knitting needle into my ear canal. I get it once or twice a week and it is painful to touch my ear and it is always my left ear. When I read the above article, I thought that might explain my ear aches albeit they are nothing compared to what you have.

JP Cusick wrote:

Norm Deplume wrote:I think that Tiw (or Mars) was on both sides. That is more likely for a god of war.

It's odd to think that the Soviets (nominally, at least, atheists) could be on the side of any god.

I can agree that "Mars" the God-of-war was indeed on both sides - oh yes.

But the higher Gods of truth and justice were more on-one-side than on the other side.

As to the Soviets then I see it as wrong to call them as Atheist just because they had an Atheist form of government.

Certainly the Russian people are very religious people, and it is to their credit.

There is also an old saying which goes like this = "There are no Atheist in a foxhole."

Well last week watched Stephen Fry's BBC documentary about homophobic attacks around the world, and one episode focused on the growing abuses of human rights against gay men and women in, that's right, the christian right in Russia. Oh, and no, it definitely was not to their credit, it was appalling. That saying is axiomatically false by the way. I also remember an article by the late Christopher Hitchens from another war torn hell hole, where he made the pithy observation, whilst in a trench and under fire that there "was at least one atheist in this foxhole".

snowyflake wrote:Tosh is lovely, stu. He's a drug addict due to being a Jewish wheel chair bound paraplegic Vietnam war veteran called Edna.

Tosh and Shirina are my personal favourites. :)I recommend them highly.

Shirina, this neuralgia you have, has anyone ever discuss surgery with you? There is a condition called transgeminal neuralgia which is characterised by extreme facial pain and they have recently been able to successfully cure someone by surgical repositioning of the nerve. I understand from our previous discussions that this affects you mostly in your hands and fingers, is that right? I'm thinking if they could locate the nerves that perhaps it might be a simple procedure to reposition the affected nerves and stop the pain. I'm not a doctor or anything but I hate to hear about people suffering and I read this recently and thought of you. It might be worth investigating.

BTW I suffer from chronic ear aches and have for decades. It's not infection or anything to do with my teeth or jaw. No one can tell me what it is and it is never painful enough to require intervention,(although sometimes I need painkillers) but it feels like someone is sticking a hot knitting needle into my ear canal. I get it once or twice a week and it is painful to touch my ear and it is always my left ear. When I read the above article, I thought that might explain my ear aches albeit they are nothing compared to what you have.

Sorry to hear about both your problems here. I have suffered for many years with two chronic pain conditions, so am always interested to hear how others cope. My back is an ongoing saga, but I also get a facial neuralgia, unlike yours though mine is always preceded by an infection in my mouth, usually either my one remaining wisdom tooth, or more usually in the vacant position of the left lower jaw where that wisdom tooth was removed. Unlike my back which is a constant, this pain occurs usually 2 or 3 times a year, and is accompanied by a earache more often than not, but always leads to facial and scalp pain in the nerve endings. Luckily the earache which is the most extreme pain is usually very short in duration, a second or two at most, but it's a show stopper for a few moments when I get it. So you have my deepest sympathy Mrs S.

Like I said to Tosh myself snowy, I make my own decisions and i've been getting on well with him. He has helped me out in one or two explanations what more can you ask and he is pleasant too.