Is needing or wanting to worship a God a human defect or benefit?

by Greatest I am Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:23 pm

First topic message reminder :

Is needing or wanting to worship a God a human defect or benefit?

Gods have no needs or wants that man can assuage. Gods are said to be so high above us that for any God to have such a need would be like man craving the adoration of germs.

I see us as just as foolish as germs and the creatures shown in this clip as we act the same way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4a_uwyY_H4

I can see where at one time it would have been profitable to bend the knee to King/Gods as in the original archetype city states, as used in the original Eden myth written by the Jews, but not today.

That myth I think was written of the following reality.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZ9cvYB7Tes

Our present secular systems of governance have bested the Gods in the moral and legal senses and only the really right wing theists would want to live under the laws of the old barbaric Gods.

I am not an atheist and seek God to appease what I recognize as my spiritual side. But not to bend the knee or adore; just to improve any defect in my thinking; if I have one.

I know that there are way more followers out there than leaders but cannot fathom why someone would want to lower themselves to adore even a God unless it is strictly as a self-serving action that we hope God will recognize and reward.

That is hardly being good for goodness sake. God would know and send such hypocrites to hell. Which scriptures say is where the vast majority of us will end up regardless.

That means that you, even if you pray daily and hard, are likely going to hell along with most of those you know. In a sense, you should feel sorry for those few who make it to heaven as they must spend eternity watching their loved ones in purposeless torture. That would drive any moral person insane.

Gods have no needs or wants and has no rewards to give in exchange for what Gods have no need or want of.

The Godhead I know certainly disavows such a need or want.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkT1-N0VqUc

Why then, if you are a believer, do you need or want to worship a God if not for the reward you think it will bring you?

Is your need to adore a God a defect or benefit?

Regards
DL

by stuart torr Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:55 pm

Extremely true sam, it would certainly be immoral not to intervene, and try and help in whatever way we could. Especially as I have just posted to Peter as usual, and his specialist confirmed his condition as terminal. could not stop tears as I posted, I DO NOT THINK HE WILL LAST ANOTHER MONTH

by Heretic Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:26 pm

JP Cusick wrote:I have discussed such things before, and IMO one great example is that there are usually more Women in the Churches then there are Men, at least that appears true in Christian Churches in the USA, and I have been in attendance at many denominations, and it is usually a Man as the preacher or Priest or Minister while most people blame that on the Apostle Paul telling a Woman is not to teach, and I find that the Women really want a Man as the leader, and no Priest or Pastor or Minister can stand very long unless the Ladies approve of the Man.

That's one hell of a long sentence, something I'm guilty of myself sometimes but wow.

Let's take what approaches as being points one by one.

JP Cusick wrote:I have discussed such things before, and IMO one great example is that there are usually more Women in the Churches then there are Men

I guess there are more women than men that are scared of death at any one time.

JP Cusick wrote: at least that appears true in Christian Churches in the USA,

Not quite sure how Christian churches are in the USA, they seem to for the most part support the right to bear arms and american participation in just about every conflict that occurs on this tiny little planet. Not sure how that equates with "love thy neighbour as thyself".

JP Cusick wrote: and I have been in attendance at many denominations

There are a lot of denominations in this world, Denomination Count gives a count of 33,000 denominations so you have barely scratched the surface.

JP Cusick wrote:and it is usually a Man as the preacher or Priest or Minister while most people blame that on the Apostle Paul telling a Woman is not to teach

I think assert rather than blame, and all (of those that can read) rather than most.

King James Version (KJV) 1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

JP Cusick wrote: and I find that the Women really want a Man as the leader,

Women are really good at making it look as though a man is in charge (ask any married man).

JP Cusick wrote: and no Priest or Pastor or Minister can stand very long unless the Ladies approve of the Man. When the Ladies do not approve of the leader then he is doomed and will soon be gone.

Guesswork unless you have detailed statistics to back that up.

JP Cusick wrote:This is NOT an insult to the Women, as in fact the Ladies have always had far more influence and power then they ever care to admit.

After sifting through all that there is nothing of value being said to a British atheist that doesn't reinforce the stereotype of American Christians being at least a shilling short of a pound.

"If your audience does not understand you then it is because you failed to communicate properly. If you continue to fail at communicating with your audience then you do not care if they do not understand you." A quote from one of my favourite people, me.

Heretic

by Shirina Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:28 pm

Heretic wrote:Not quite sure how Christian churches are in the USA, they seem to for the most part support the right to bear arms and american participation in just about every conflict that occurs on this tiny little planet. Not sure how that equates with "love thy neighbour as thyself".

A lot of American Christians worship Mammon, not God or Jesus. They just don't seem to realize it.

As for "love thy neighbor," nah ... in this country, the Christians preach: "Judge thy neighbor."

"My dollars, who art in the bank
hallowed be my greed.
Thy bills they come
They will be paid
By credit as it is for cash
Give us this money, our daily consumption
And forgive us for lower profits
As we do not forgive those with less than us
And lead us not into charity
But deliver us from the poor
For my cash makes me powerful
And special and entitled
Forever and ever.

Cha-ching!"

by JP Cusick Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:33 pm

Heretic wrote:Women are really good at making it look as though a man is in charge (ask any married man).

Amen to that.

Heretic wrote: After sifting through all that there is nothing of value being said to a British atheist that doesn't reinforce the stereotype of American Christians being at least a shilling short of a pound.

I certainly am not trying to defend the Christian Churches, even though I will often try to make apologies for them.

I do some times defend God and the Bible and faith, but I try not to defend wrongdoing - so long as I myself view it as wrongdoing.

Of course I separate the wrongdoing from the wrong doer - as in hate the sin but not the sinner.

Heretic wrote:
"If your audience does not understand you then it is because you failed to communicate properly. If you continue to fail at communicating with your audience then you do not care if they do not understand you." A quote from one of my favourite people, me.

Heretic

A quote that strikes me from "Pride and Prejudice" which is to "willfully misunderstand" because my communications are fairly clear while some people willfully misunderstand out of spite.

But I still do agree very deeply with your statement that effective communications need to be readily if not easily understood even by very ignorant people or else the communicator has failed.

The thing is though that people can understand without liking it or without accepting it or even when they reject it, because people often understand any enemy or opposition far better then one understands their self.

study

by stuart torr Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:58 pm

All I can say to that post JP, is well said Heretic. thumbsup

by JP Cusick Wed Oct 16, 2013 6:13 pm

Dan Fante wrote:The women in Saudi Arabia don't have a choice about whether they can drive or not. That's the point. An anecdote about your wife is completely irrelevant.

I honestly see no reality in the claim that Saudi women even want to drive.

I researched the subject of Muslim clothing and found that Muslim women are proud of their coverings, and even converts here in the USA have females who happily and willfully start wearing full Muslim style clothing covering their entire body and they too are proud of it.

We are told that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, and we have lots of converts (male and female) here in the USA, and I have often suggested to young people who lack guidance to consider joining Islam because the real Muslims promote very strong families and very strong on social justice and on personal stability of the individual, and when a Mosque gets built then crime goes down just as social awareness increases.

Here in the west having a Woman driving also means putting our Women to work serving our greedy masters and its exploitative Capitalism, and since I study history then just 100 years ago our females were not so degraded as is now.

I really see westerners as just trying to push if not force the ugly sins of the west onto the Islamic people who do not want to join into our sins.

Dan Fante wrote:
Regarding the case in the Maldives, I didn't make any emotional claims. I stated the facts other than an opinion as to why the sentence was not carried out. Can you give a better explanation as to why it wasn't?

You are satisfied with the info given, and I tell you that I am not.

We do not know whatever the girl really did, do not know whatever the laws say, do not even know the true accusations, so you accept too much as fact and accept far too easily.

Dan Fante wrote:Your attempts to compare female genital mutilation to male circumcision (which I do not approve of when carried out on babies for religious reasons, I might add) are rather ludicrous since the latter does not impinged upon the sexual pleasure of men later in life and is a far less intrusive procedure since it is basically just removing a small piece of skin.

So why not offer medical assistance or guidance where the procedure could be done without harming the females sexuality?

Answer - Because if we did that then we would have to stop feeling like we are so much better than they.

That is what people are still trying to do with our side's barbaric male circumcision.

Dan Fante wrote:Plastic surgery is not comparable either since it is done on consenting adults. It's illegal if it's carried out on minors so I don't see your point there. It certainly is in the UK anyway.

It is a matter of mutilating the human body.

Just because we make it legal does not make it as right.

In fact the female circumcision is legal in those parts of the world, and yet we would like to make them as illegal - but you want to ignore the mutilations done here in the west, as here it is a Doctor's profit to do.

Dan Fante wrote:As for Afghanistan, I don't approve of the war but I don't see how that makes forcing young girls to get married to older men to be ok.

Clearly that has absolutely nothing at all to do with the war there.

Here in the west including the UK, our rich old men simply pay cash money for the sexual services of the young Women, and so we view our side as being more civilized than actually marrying the girl.

============================================

Sam Hunter wrote:Sometimes, we're morally obliged to intervene in other people's business. If there is no harm being done, then we can leave them alone and give them privacy. But if someone is being hurt or oppressed or someting like that, then we need to step in. Surely, it would be immoral to not intervene.

I agree that we must intervene regarding any atrocities committed against human beings.

But surely we do not want to invade Saudi Arabia just to make so the Ladies can drive their own car.

And we do not want to invade some Indian island Country because some woman got whipped for some uncertain reason.

deadhorse

by stuart torr Wed Oct 16, 2013 6:49 pm

Put yourself in the place of the 5year old girl then JP and get circumcised then. You really do not see the other point of view except your own do you. You should change what you think is sanctity of your words, to sanctimonious JP.

by Sam Hunter Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:21 pm

JP Cusick wrote:
Sam Hunter wrote:Sometimes, we're morally obliged to intervene in other people's business. If there is no harm being done, then we can leave them alone and give them privacy. But if someone is being hurt or oppressed or someting like that, then we need to step in. Surely, it would be immoral to not intervene.
I agree that we must intervene regarding any atrocities committed against human beings.

But surely we do not want to invade Saudi Arabia just to make so the Ladies can drive their own car.

And we do not want to invade some Indian island Country because some woman got whipped for some uncertain reason.

JP, do you think that invasion is the only form of intervention? (Please appreciate the effort it took to not make an american foreign policy comment there. Smile

)

This is about the freedom to choose, about self-determination. It's not only about the right to drive or not having to endure whipping. Everyone, man or woman, deserves to be free to live their life as they choose, so long as they don't stop anyone else doing the same. The oppression of women not only puts down individuals but also represses society. When women have access to education and health care and equal rights, all of society benefits as well as the obvious advantages to the women themselves.
How can it be right to stand by and watch what happens to these women and do nothing because we don't want to offend their culture or their religion?

by snowyflake Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:31 pm

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights is by far the best moral declaration we have ever envisaged. Better than the bible, toran, qu'ran or any other religious document on the planet. There is nothing in that declaration that discriminates against anyone. It decries violence and criminal activity, oppression, slavery, inequality, poverty, disease and anything else that degrades the human spirit. Universal Declaration of Human Rights

This is the ONLY document we need to progress as a species and to include everyone who resides on the planet. Religion, faith and belief are rubbish compared to this.

by stuart torr Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:36 pm

Well said Sam, the way immigration is growing , Islam's are going to increase in the UK and what will happen then? do we stand by and let these poor women be supressed the way they will be.?

by snowyflake Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:50 pm

Muslim women in the UK are protected by the law. Sharia law does not override UK law. Muslims escaping theocracies are unlikely to be the problem, stu. It is the diehard Islamic extremists you have to worry about. The ones who kill their daughters out of 'honour'. Muslim women are standing up against Islamic rule that says women and girls are less than men.

Please see the website Equality Now and Violence is not our Culture. These are very good websites that highlight the plight of muslim women in the Middle East and Africa where they suffer oppression, misogyny, abuse and violence.

The good thing is that the majority of muslims are not like this. Their faith does not encourage the abuse of women or girls (anymore than the Christian religion encourages the death penalty for lippy teenagers) so it is important, to me anyway, that we support muslim women in their fight for equality, respect and honour.

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:59 pm

snowyflake wrote:The Universal Declaration of Human Rights is by far the best moral declaration we have ever envisaged. Better than the bible, toran, qu'ran or any other religious document on the planet. There is nothing in that declaration that discriminates against anyone. It decries violence and criminal activity, oppression, slavery, inequality, poverty, disease and anything else that degrades the human spirit. Universal Declaration of Human Rights

This is the ONLY document we need to progress as a species and to include everyone who resides on the planet. Religion, faith and belief are rubbish compared to this.

Bravo, and amen to that... Cool

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Wed Oct 16, 2013 8:12 pm

I honestly see no reality in the claim that Saudi women even want to drive. wrote:JP Cusick

As much as it pains me to even respond to such idiocy, is it even worth me pointing out that this is not about whether women want to drive in Saudi Arabia, it's about the fact that they don't have the right to decide for themselves you clown.

I researched the subject of Muslim clothing and found that Muslim women are proud of their coverings, wrote:JP Cusick

Even assuming you had actually poled a significant amount of muslim women, or enough to make that statement less idiotic than it clearly is, this is nothing to do with what individual women want to wear.

IT'S ABOUT THEM NOT HAVING THE RIGHT TO DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES....and of course the appalling and violent way they are treated when they try to assert that right.

Here in the west having a Woman driving also means [b]putting our Women to work [/b] wrote:JP Cusick

Holy crap on a cracker, "our women??" "our females??" you really don't have even the vaguest the concept of equal rights at all do you, it's like trying to debate equal rights for women with Jim Davidson.

I really see westerners as just trying to push if not force the ugly sins of the west onto the Islamic people who do not want to join into our sins. wrote:JP Cusick

Well here's a radical thought for you, why not let women decide for themselves? I don't know, as if they were, what shall we say, equal? Then get the misogynistic women haters to wind their necks in, and all muslims, christians, and Jews, and everybody else everywhere to sign up to a charter for universal human rights for everyone, tadah, job done.....

So why not offer medical assistance or guidance where the procedure could be done without harming the females sexuality? wrote:JP Cusick

Because FGM is castration, that's like suggesting medical assistance and guidance for cutting off your penis and testicles without harming your sexuality, do you fancy trying it out? Because I'm happy to admit I don't.

Here in the west including the UK, our rich old men simply pay cash money for the sexual services of the young Women, and so we view our side as being more civilized than actually marrying the girl. wrote:JP Cusick

Pathetic misrepresentation, no person under the age of 16 can legally give consent to sex in the UK, the muslim practice of forcing girls in into marriages with much older men includes pre-pubescent girls, so your example is a clumsy stupid attempt at deflection.

by snowyflake Wed Oct 16, 2013 8:14 pm

Where in the bible does it say that women driving is a sin?

JP do you live in Tennessee by any chance?

by stuart torr Wed Oct 16, 2013 8:16 pm

Seconded!! it is what goes on behind closed doors here in the UK I was concerned with snowyflake.

by Heretic Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:18 pm

JP Cusick wrote:I honestly see no reality in the claim that Saudi women even want to drive.

Saudi women only want what they are told to want.

JP Cusick wrote:I researched the subject of Muslim clothing and found that Muslim women are proud of their coverings, and even converts here in the USA have females who happily and willfully start wearing full Muslim style clothing covering their entire body and they too are proud of it.

I have no problem with the way Muslim women dress but they need to understand that they will generate a great deal of hostility if their clothing covers their face. In our culture the only people that hide their faces are criminals and terrorists.

JP Cusick wrote:We are told that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, and we have lots of converts (male and female) here in the USA, and I have often suggested to young people who lack guidance to consider joining Islam because the real Muslims promote very strong families and very strong on social justice and on personal stability of the individual, and when a Mosque gets built then crime goes down just as social awareness increases.

How very short sighted, in fact let's tell it like it is, how stupid of you. Muslims have very strong family ties? for many Muslim wives they are virtually slaves with death or widowhood being the only prospect of release. Muslim girls from my classroom were whisked back to Somalia to be married to someone they had not met and did not know, only to be brought back to UK to allow passage of their significantly older husband into the UK to live off benefits.

JP Cusick wrote:Here in the west having a Woman driving also means putting our Women to work serving our greedy masters and its exploitative Capitalism, and since I study history then just 100 years ago our females were not so degraded as is now.

There is no direct link and you know it. Here in the west we do not fear a woman with a book or a wage packet the way the Islamic world does.

JP Cusick wrote:I really see westerners as just trying to push if not force the ugly sins of the west onto the Islamic people who do not want to join into our sins.

They are scared of our world and their only response is the bomb.

JP Cusick wrote:Here in the west including the UK, our rich old men simply pay cash money for the sexual services of the young Women, and so we view our side as being more civilized than actually marrying the girl.

Here in the west perverts pay for sexual services and it is the same in the Islamic world except that in the Islamic world the prostitute (sex trade victim) does not get paid, her father does instead.

Islam has nothing of merit to offer the west.

Heretic

by stuart torr Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:33 pm

Heretic, extremely well said, JP of course will take no notice of it whatsoever. He will come up with some more of his useless anti-women rubbish, I would not be at all suprised if he were not a practicing muslim himself and hiding the fact.

by Heretic Wed Oct 16, 2013 10:50 pm

JP Cusick wrote:

Heretic wrote:
"If your audience does not understand you then it is because you failed to communicate properly. If you continue to fail at communicating with your audience then you do not care if they do not understand you." A quote from one of my favourite people, me.

Heretic
A quote that strikes me from "Pride and Prejudice" which is to "willfully misunderstand" because my communications are fairly clear while some people willfully misunderstand out of spite.

I thought I was building on a quote by John Grinder and Richard Bandler in The Structure of Magic see http://www.amazon.co.uk/Structure-Magic-About-Language-Therapy/dp/0831400447

JP Cusick wrote:
But I still do agree very deeply with your statement that effective communications need to be readily if not easily understood even by very ignorant people or else the communicator has failed.

As a teacher of Information Technology to students(post 16) with learning or behavioural problems I frequently had to find new ways to describe ideas and I had not succeeded until every student understood what was being asked of them. While it is true I did not have large classes (up to eight students) I usually was able to get their interest and pass on knowledge and skills, if not every day then certainly on most days to most students.

Heretic

by JP Cusick Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:21 pm

Sam Hunter wrote:
JP Cusick wrote:I agree that we must intervene regarding any atrocities committed against human beings.

But surely we do not want to invade Saudi Arabia just to make so the Ladies can drive their own car.

And we do not want to invade some Indian island Country because some woman got whipped for some uncertain reason.
JP, do you think that invasion is the only form of intervention? (Please appreciate the effort it took to not make an american foreign policy comment there. )

Ha ha ha .....

Of course I gave an American foreign policy position = ha ha ha .....

And would not the UK jump in too?

Seriously we have plenty enough defects here in the west which you could work on without taking up our time trying to get Saudi women to drive a car, or trying to get Muslim women to take off their clothing, or second guessing their judicial process based on bigoted propaganda.

Unless you view our side as sooooooo flawless and without blemish?

I really do find that the Muslim women are happily put up on a pedestal and it is a lot of extra work for the Muslim Men to honor their women so.

Telling the Muslim women to drive is like telling British women to join the military and go to war, as it is a sick mentality that views such things as righteousness or even as equality or as doing something positive for the Ladies - because those are not.

Sam Hunter wrote:This is about the freedom to choose, about self-determination. It's not only about the right to drive or not having to endure whipping.

And I said that a whipping of 100 lashes would be chosen over 20 years in jail, and I honestly believe that many prisoners would take or choose the 100 lashes instead of just 6 months in jail.

What you are doing is trying to make the choice for other people, who I say do not want the choice, or at least do not want you to make their choices.

You seem to say that simply having a choice is thereby freedom - well no.

Human beings have created governments to enforce laws and order, and that means restricting the choices, which also means that moral people view a license to sin as anarchy and barbarism and as reprehensible.

Sam Hunter wrote:Everyone, man or woman, deserves to be free to live their life as they choose, so long as they don't stop anyone else doing the same.

When they choose to live a religious life as they choose to live as Muslims under the beautiful ideals of Islam then they are living free.

You are trying to violate their freedom by injecting your western immoral beliefs into their society.

Sam Hunter wrote:The oppression of women not only puts down individuals but also represses society. When women have access to education and health care and equal rights, all of society benefits as well as the obvious advantages to the women themselves.
How can it be right to stand by and watch what happens to these women and do nothing because we don't want to offend their culture or their religion?

Because you are wrong to view their culture as oppressing women, and in fact it is NOT oppressing the Women.

Your accusation is prejudiced and bigoted and unjust.

Our society including the USA and the UK are promoting legalized debauchery and licentiousness, while the Islamic cultures have rightfully rejected our blatant unGodly sinning.

FYI.

Idea

by JP Cusick Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:03 am

Heretic wrote:
JP Cusick wrote:I honestly see no reality in the claim that Saudi women even want to drive.
Saudi women only want what they are told to want.

I will agree with you on this but you do not take it far enough, because all of humanity is known to act as sheep being lead around line drones.

Men and women anywhere in the world do what the advertisers tell them to do and what their governments permit and comply to the social peer pressure of wherever they happen to be born.

Saudi Arabia is a Theocracy as a religious Country and religious Monarchy, and so every person is told what to think and want and to do.

You claim the Women are singled out when it is only you and the western bigots who single out the females.

In the Catholic Church the Priest and Nuns are all under super strict orders, and even any Catholic person / civilian is expected to follow the commandments and traditions and if any does not then they get burned in the Hell.

Church of England does that too, as does the Presbyterians and all Protestant Churches.

The Jewish religion has its own enforced orthodoxy, and it too is very strict code of commandments and traditions.

And it is not just religions, because here in the USA we have the political parties where the Republicans and Democrats must each champion the Party line or else the person gets put out.

My understanding is that the UK's Conservative Party is rather strict on its members too.

The idea that we in the west are going to instruct the entire world that our immorality and our licentiousness is freedom is just inflated self righteousness which needs to be stopped.

Heretic wrote:I have no problem with the way Muslim women dress but they need to understand that they will generate a great deal of hostility if their clothing covers their face. In our culture the only people that hide their faces are criminals and terrorists.

That is also religious intolerance and religious bigotry on our side.

And not all of us are so afraid of the scary Muslims, and we are not all so paranoid as is our bigoted culture.

Heretic wrote:Muslims have very strong family ties? for many Muslim wives they are virtually slaves with death or widowhood being the only prospect of release. Muslim girls from my classroom were whisked back to Somalia to be married to someone they had not met and did not know, only to be brought back to UK to allow passage of their significantly older husband into the UK to live off benefits.

That is just childish propaganda by our paranoid culture.

Heretic wrote:They are scared of our world and their only response is the bomb.

That is a description of our side.

Lets count how many bombs we drop on their people compared to the few bombs laid in retaliation against us.

We are terrorized by a few explosions, while they get bombed all over the place and they still are not terrorized - go figure that?

Heretic wrote:Islam has nothing of merit to offer the west.

Thank God and thank intelligence that there are many people who do not share that horrible attitude.

Heretic wrote:I thought I was building on a quote by John Grinder and Richard Bandler in The Structure of Magic see http://www.amazon.co.uk/Structure-Magic-About-Language-Therapy/dp/0831400447

That book sounds interesting to me.

I will try to get it, but I will need the American version.

Heretic wrote:As a teacher of Information Technology to students(post 16) with learning or behavioural problems I frequently had to find new ways to describe ideas and I had not succeeded until every student understood what was being asked of them. While it is true I did not have large classes (up to eight students) I usually was able to get their interest and pass on knowledge and skills, if not every day then certainly on most days to most students.

Heretic

When I first read this then I intended to compliment you on it.

But after hearing your unwholesome view of other people then I shudder to think of what ideas you would put into the heads of vulnerable students.

:yeahthat:

by Heretic Thu Oct 17, 2013 1:16 am

JP Cusick wrote:I will agree with you on this but you do not take it far enough, because all of humanity is known to act as sheep being lead around line drones.

Men and women anywhere in the world do what the advertisers tell them to do and what their governments permit and comply to the social peer pressure of wherever they happen to be born.

Sadly I must agree with you, it's a crying shame but yes.

JP Cusick wrote:Saudi Arabia is a Theocracy as a religious Country and religious Monarchy, and so every person is told what to think and want and to do.

You claim the Women are singled out when it is only you and the western bigots who single out the females.

No idea where that came from. First sentence is correct, as for the second????

JP Cusick wrote:And it is not just religions, because here in the USA we have the political parties where the Republicans and Democrats must each champion the Party line or else the person gets put out.

Political parties are just religions or cults just as clearly as churches or temples are.

JP Cusick wrote:My understanding is that the UK's Conservative Party is rather strict on its members too.

Really, as far as I can see the PM was a petty criminal while at school/uni, I seem to remember he was in a club that regularly disrupted people who were only trying to earn an honest crust, they got away with it because they always paid for the damages. It was only by lick that they didn't hurt anyone seriously.

JP Cusick wrote:The idea that we in the west are going to instruct the entire world that our immorality and our licentiousness is freedom is just inflated self righteousness which needs to be stopped.

Heretic wrote:I have no problem with the way Muslim women dress but they need to understand that they will generate a great deal of hostility if their clothing covers their face. In our culture the only people that hide their faces are criminals and terrorists.

JP Cusick wrote:That is also religious intolerance and religious bigotry on our side.

It is not a religious custom to hide the face, it is a cultural one, therefore no bigotry. The only reason Arab men make their women hide their faces is because they cannot trust other Arab men to behave decently when they see a woman. It's all about male lusts. In the west it is not necessary for women to hide themselves away, we are so used to the sight of women that we rarely act in any other way than with courtesy and good manners.

There is confusion among immigrants because they misinterpret the way our women dress as a sort invitation to intimacy that is not meant or intended. The result of such confusion is the most heinous crimes committed against some of our women and young girls.

JP Cusick wrote:And not all of us are so afraid of the scary Muslims, and we are not all so paranoid as is our bigoted culture.

Our society is the most welcoming in the world but cultural misunderstandings form ghettos where people do not need to embrace the society that shelters them. However second and third generation Muslims do understand our culture and make every effort to blend in and that is to their credit.

Heretic wrote:Muslims have very strong family ties? for many Muslim wives they are virtually slaves with death or widowhood being the only prospect of release. Muslim girls from my classroom were whisked back to Somalia to be married to someone they had not met and did not know, only to be brought back to UK to allow passage of their significantly older husband into the UK to live off benefits.

JP Cusick wrote:That is just childish propaganda by our paranoid culture.

Oh you silly man, you have no idea of what you're talking about. I spent three months in Bahrain some forty years ago and I've seen with my own eyes what I've described. I also taught Muslims in the heart of Liverpool and I know what I'm talking about. I've seen young girls going on holiday back to Somalia and return in tears, married and pregnant at age 17. Propaganda is what seems to come out of the point of your 'keyboard'.

JP Cusick wrote:
Heretic wrote:They are scared of our world and their only response is the bomb.
That is a description of our side.

Lets count how many bombs we drop on their people compared to the few bombs laid in retaliation against us.

We are terrorized by a few explosions, while they get bombed all over the place and they still are not terrorized - go figure that?

The fact is that they commit many more crimes against each other than they commit against us and if we are not careful they will slowly get more organised and more effective. Radical Islam has declared war on the world and moderate Islam is not doing anything about it except providing a hiding place for them. Islam just does not have the tools to deal with the radicals, there is nothing in their commandments, scriptures that allows them to act against those radical that will pull the burning fires down upon their heads if they are not careful.

Heretic wrote:Islam has nothing of merit to offer the west.

JP Cusick wrote:Thank God and thank intelligence that there are many people who do not share that horrible attitude.

Heretic wrote:As a teacher of Information Technology to students(post 16) with learning or behavioural problems I frequently had to find new ways to describe ideas and I had not succeeded until every student understood what was being asked of them. While it is true I did not have large classes (up to eight students) I usually was able to get their interest and pass on knowledge and skills, if not every day then certainly on most days to most students.

Heretic

When I first read this then I intended to compliment you on it.

But after hearing your unwholesome view of other people then I shudder to think of what ideas you would put into the heads of vulnerable students.

[/quote]
I do have a couple of Muslim friends and if you think what I say about Islam is radical I really do wish you could hear them speak about it. Never mind, one day you might learn. Remember that we have to deal with life as it is and not as we think it should be. I must remember to bring in a reality check with me next time.

Heretic

by Shirina Thu Oct 17, 2013 3:37 am

I'm really starting to think that JP Cusick is trolling.

I mean, sure, I get that not all ideas are going to mesh with my own, and I don't expect them to. However, the things JP is saying, the absurdly twisted logic he is using ... I'm having a hard time taking it all seriously. Who the hell really advocates the killing of kids or the oppression of women? I've heard a lot of crazy ideas in the 15 years I've been posting on forums, but I've never heard anyone champion the kinds of things JP is crusading for.

I've also never heard a Western woman complain about how "degraded" she was for having the right to drive, the right to dress herself, the right to marry who she wishes, and the right not to have her genitals mutilated. I've had a lot of girls' nights out, and while we're giggling and having pillow fights, NONE of those girls ever said, "I think we should all dress in tents because we're being degraded." Nor are they tossing their drivers' licenses into the trash because they thought driving is a sin. Fortunately, as we talked about cute guys and who we have crushes on, none of my friends' families burst through the door and murdered their daughter because she was "too Westernized" or for having a crush on someone from the wrong tribe or religious sect.

But anyhow, I digress. What I do know is that something is really "off" about JP's posts. They are so out of line with society - MOST societies around the world - that I find it hard to believe that JP actually stands by this nonsense. I get the feeling that he's sitting at home laughing his head off, telling his friends about how he's winding up a bunch of new posters on a forum. Lulz!

by Sam Hunter Thu Oct 17, 2013 5:19 am

Shirina wrote:I'm really starting to think that JP Cusick is trolling.

I've been wondering whether he's serious for a couple of days now. I nearly asked him right out yesterday whether he was, but then my tea was ready and I didn't get around to it..

If he is just trying to wind people up, he's going to be disappointed. I don't get wound up by these sorts of discussions. What's the point? If you learn something from the discussion, then it's all well and good. If not, then it was just practice.

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:17 am

Shirina wrote:I'm really starting to think that JP Cusick is trolling.

I mean, sure, I get that not all ideas are going to mesh with my own, and I don't expect them to. However, the things JP is saying, the absurdly twisted logic he is using ... I'm having a hard time taking it all seriously. Who the hell really advocates the killing of kids or the oppression of women? I've heard a lot of crazy ideas in the 15 years I've been posting on forums, but I've never heard anyone champion the kinds of things JP is crusading for.

I've also never heard a Western woman complain about how "degraded" she was for having the right to drive, the right to dress herself, the right to marry who she wishes, and the right not to have her genitals mutilated. I've had a lot of girls' nights out, and while we're giggling and having pillow fights, NONE of those girls ever said, "I think we should all dress in tents because we're being degraded." Nor are they tossing their drivers' licenses into the trash because they thought driving is a sin. Fortunately, as we talked about cute guys and who we have crushes on, none of my friends' families burst through the door and murdered their daughter because she was "too Westernized" or for having a crush on someone from the wrong tribe or religious sect.

But anyhow, I digress. What I do know is that something is really "off" about JP's posts. They are so out of line with society - MOST societies around the world - that I find it hard to believe that JP actually stands by this nonsense. I get the feeling that he's sitting at home laughing his head off, telling his friends about how he's winding up a bunch of new posters on a forum. Lulz!

To be honest I've encountered theists exactly like this before, and just as you are doing now, I found myself starting to question whether they were trolling. I guess I just don't want to believe that there people out there who are really so intolerant and bigoted. Of course I've also encountered some fairly sad people who live to troll on the internet, what kind of sad existence they must have for that to be the highlight of their free time is anyone's guess.

He'll be along in a minute to tell you that you don't know you're being degraded because the devil has possessed you, and blinded you to reality.

by stuart torr Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:30 pm

I think old JP is actually a group of friends just winding us all up with this obnoxious thinking,while they are all sat there laughing.

by timeout Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:38 pm

[quote="Shirina"]I'm really starting to think that JP Cusick is trolling.

i've only been here a few days but his posts have all the hallmarks of either a troll or someone with psychological problems, although in some cases it's one and the same thing. but there are people out there that do hold very twisted views and do create their own reality searching out anything to validate their concept of the way they think the world should be no matter how little or just plain nonsensical it is.

JP could be either but regardless of which he is there is absolutely no point in corresponding with him as it just encourages such behaviour to continue. it is also, in my experience, quite unusual to find someone that jumps in with so many antagonistic views and it rather looks like JP is simply taking whatever view he/she thinks will get the most attention and cause the most disruption to a threads discussion.

by Dan Fante Thu Oct 17, 2013 1:13 pm

JP Cusick wrote:

Dan Fante wrote:As for Afghanistan, I don't approve of the war but I don't see how that makes forcing young girls to get married to older men to be ok.
Clearly that has absolutely nothing at all to do with the war there.

But I didn't bring the subject of the war up in relation to this, you did Laughing

by stuart torr Thu Oct 17, 2013 2:20 pm

Many times Dan,over and over again.:yeahthat:

by JP Cusick Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:00 pm

Shirina wrote:I'm really starting to think that JP Cusick is trolling.

Who the hell really advocates the killing of kids or the oppression of women? I've heard a lot of crazy ideas in the 15 years I've been posting on forums, but I've never heard anyone champion the kinds of things JP is crusading for.

So more name-calling.

The thing is that I am not advocating the killing of kids, and not advocating the oppression of women either.

You see me that way but it is your own false vision and not me.

What I see as the problem about me going on here is that I am the only one (1) here who actually has or exhibits any real faith or religion or even true feelings.

You and your gang have said you do not believe in God and you mock the scriptures and try to suppress any real talk on the given subject.

There are other sections of this forum that are for "Politics" and for "Health" and "General Discussions" but this one here claims to be for "Religion And Related Issues" but you and your gang does not respect that.

Here - it is not me that causes the hostility or the trolling.

I guess now if I had read the thread title correctly = Is needing or wanting to worship a God a human defect or benefit? = then maybe I could have known that this thread was intended just to bash religion and nothing else - but then this is not the only thread where the bashing of religion goes onward.

:yeahthat:

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:25 pm

JP Cusick wrote:
Shirina wrote:I'm really starting to think that JP Cusick is trolling.

Who the hell really advocates the killing of kids or the oppression of women? I've heard a lot of crazy ideas in the 15 years I've been posting on forums, but I've never heard anyone champion the kinds of things JP is crusading for.
So more name-calling.

The thing is that I am not advocating the killing of kids, and not advocating the oppression of women either.

You see me that way but it is your own false vision and not me.

What I see as the problem about me going on here is that I am the only one (1) here who actually has or exhibits any real faith or religion or even true feelings.

You and your gang have said you do not believe in God and you mock the scriptures and try to suppress any real talk on the given subject.

There are other sections of this forum that are for "Politics" and for "Health" and "General Discussions" but this one here claims to be for "Religion And Related Issues" but you and your gang does not respect that.

Here - it is not me that causes the hostility or the trolling.

I guess now if I had read the thread title correctly = Is needing or wanting to worship a God a human defect or benefit? = then maybe I could have known that this thread was intended just to bash religion and nothing else - but then this is not the only thread where the bashing of religion goes onward.

:yeahthat:

You've not responded to my evidence of Islamic abuses of women's rights:

https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t580p280-female-human-rights-in-moslem-cultures#45734

Take a look a that girl who was shot in the head for wanting an education, she's addressing the United Nations, it was news around the world. Is it propaganda? If so how did she get the UN to play along?

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:41 pm

JP Cusick wrote:
Shirina wrote:I'm really starting to think that JP Cusick is trolling.

Who the hell really advocates the killing of kids or the oppression of women? I've heard a lot of crazy ideas in the 15 years I've been posting on forums, but I've never heard anyone champion the kinds of things JP is crusading for.
So more name-calling.

The thing is that I am not advocating the killing of kids, and not advocating the oppression of women either.

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:You support scripture, so indirectly you do, you have also been an unashamed apologetic for the worst excesses of Islam.
You see me that way but it is your own false vision and not me.

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:So only your view of how you perceive yourself is valid? That's fairly egotistical don't you think?
What I see as the problem about me going on here is that I am the only one (1) here who actually has or exhibits any real faith or religion or even true feelings.

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:No not at all, there are others who exhibit faith, and religion, as for true feelings well that's a rather bizarre claim, who is it you think are not exhibiting true feelings and what evidence do you have for such a silly claim?
You and your gang have said you do not believe in God and you mock the scriptures and try to suppress any real talk on the given subject.

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:Gang? You're being very silly now, as for scripture it's claims are generally so illogical and risible, even puerile in places mockery is a perfectly valid response. No one has suppressed any discussion, you do seem to be suggesting however that religious discussion should not criticise religion? Now that would be suppression of discussion if the site were simply a sounding board for the credulous.
There are other sections of this forum that are for "Politics" and for "Health" and "General Discussions" but this one here claims to be for "Religion And Related Issues" but you and your gang does not respect that.

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:Again this is nonsense, we're discussing religion, you seem to want to suppress all contradictory polemic, well unlucky, this is a free site and anyone can discuss the topic of religion in this part of it, not just the credulous. What are you sacred of?
Here - it is not me that causes the hostility or the trolling.

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:Well you make claims and don't provide evidence, dismiss evidence you don't agree with as "propaganda" without any evidence to validate the risible claim, ignore posters and posts you don't agree with. Use ad hominem arguments. Make bizarre and illogical claims then ignore the responses. Which is probably why people think you're trolling.
I guess now if I had read the thread title correctly = Is needing or wanting to worship a God a human defect or benefit? = then maybe I could have known that this thread was intended just to bash religion and nothing else - but then this is not the only thread where the bashing of religion goes onward.

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:That's just coming across as playing the paranoid victim now. If you have credible empirical evidence to refute those who think religion is of no benefit, then present it, but don't whine if your polemic is refuted because it's poorly thought out.
:yeahthat:

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:48 pm

The idea that we in the west are going to instruct the entire world that our immorality and our licentiousness is freedom is just inflated self righteousness which needs to be stopped. wrote:JP Cusick

You seem unable to grasp that western freedoms don't force licentiousness or anything else on anyone, no one has to behave in any way they don't want to in a democracy. It strikes me that you are really bleating because you know that western freedoms will free women who once free will no longer allow misogynistic muslim men to control them, and people will gradually realise they can have better lives without strict antiquated religious dogma weighing them down, and though they'll still be free to live that kind of guilt ridden superstitious life for themselves, they won't be able to force it on others, and probably won't want it for themselves in the long run, which is clearly your deepest fear here.

by stuart torr Thu Oct 17, 2013 9:22 pm

Hear Hear, what extremely well written replies Sheldon, he is scared of having females in charge when he sees the bank manager etc. Is there a particular word for that,which escapes my knowledge at the moment?

by snowyflake Thu Oct 17, 2013 9:28 pm

Hi JP

You make a good point that it appears you are the only believer on the forum at the moment. Polyglide slinks in every now and then but most of us are atheists. Greatest I am is a believer but not in your god. He believes he is god.

I'm sure as the only believer in the village, you are feeling a little picked on and I can sympathise with this. However, in light of scientific discovery, the scientific method and a gazillion things we do not know, how can you be so sure that your way is the right way? Why is your belief the right belief? Why isn't Mohammad's ministry, or Joseph Smith's ministry as true as Jesus'? What is the difference between Jesus and Shiva?

Of the 3000 religions out there, they all claim to be the one true religion and obviously they can't all be the one true religion.

For me, I came to atheism late in my life but there was always something about faith that never sat right with me. It just felt like lying to myself even though I was as strong a believer as you are now. The constant wrangling in my head about the inconsistencies in the bible are very tiresome. I think, after a Science degree and a life time working in genetics, I can safely say that the probability of god existing is nil. Nothing in the world works by magic. Water doesn't turn into wine, blind people are not miraculously healed by god, amputees never grow their limbs back no matter how hard you pray, people are not raised from the dead.

God is omnipotent apparently and promises the faithful that he will answer all prayer. He doesn't because he is not there. Magic is not the answer for how our world and universe operate.

by polyglide Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:13 pm

No, you only have to look at all the MPs in our government, liars, thieves, perverts and adulterers amongst them, to see just how our affairs are conducted at the presenbt time and how they operate.

God does not promise to answer every prayer, what he promises is that those who believe in him through Jesus will enjoy that which he originally intended for us.

Everything prior to Jesus has no relevance to the people of today.

by Dan Fante Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:16 pm

Bronze age shepherds knew more than us apparently. Aye, rightio Laughing

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:29 pm

polyglide wrote:No, you only have to look at all the MPs in our government, liars, thieves, perverts and adulterers amongst them, to see just how our affairs are conducted at the presenbt time and how they operate.

God does not promise to answer every prayer, what he promises is that those who believe in him through Jesus will enjoy that which he originally intended for us.

Everything prior to Jesus has no relevance to the people of today.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What was your god doing messing around with dinosaurs for all those millions of years?

And why the long hiatus before he got to the "main show" of creating humans?

If humans are the main show then why not create humans outright, why mess around with millions of years of evolution, only to lie about it in the bible?

Having finaly evolved humans why wait 100000+ years to give his message?

Why give send his own son/himself to ancient Palestine they were ignorant and superstitious and he must have realised hwo that would look to future generations?

Why create the devil at all if he's benevolent?

Finally can I ask that when and if you answer any of the points made, or make claims yourself you offer what evidence you have, or say you have none, don't simply say "anyone who looks at so and so can see it's the proof of etc etc" as that's not the case. I require compelling empirical evidence before I accept a premise as evidenced, and expect it to be published and peer reviewed and it's conclusions validated by science before it constitutes proof. The way science has for 200 years amassed and validated evidence for evolution as an example.

by polyglide Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:43 pm

Evolution is still a theory.

Anyone in my opinion who believes that the universe and all it contains came about by chance and without a wonderful intelligence being involved needs urgent medical attention.

I can understand anyone being confused regarding the past use of the earth, the dinosaurs being a prime example but there are far more involvements in the universe that make no sense to us that pose a far greater answer than the fact that the earth was used at one time for the creation of creatures the reason for we do not know and are realy of no concern to us.

by Dan Fante Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:58 pm

Evolution will always a theory until it is disproved / supplanted by a better theory, Polly. The assumption that something is proven and over and done with, written in stone if you like is unscientific. That's more in keeping with religion.

by timeout Fri Oct 18, 2013 1:12 pm

polyglide wrote:Evolution is still a theory.

Anyone in my opinion who believes that the universe and all it contains came about by chance and without a wonderful intelligence being involved needs urgent medical attention.

I can understand anyone being confused regarding the past use of the earth, the dinosaurs being a prime example but there are far more involvements in the universe that make no sense to us that pose a far greater answer than the fact that the earth was used at one time for the creation of creatures the reason for we do not know and are realy of no concern to us.

That's an excellent idea, when sick, those seeking scientific answers can seek the help of the medical profession and those seeking religious answers can seek prayers from religious organisations.

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Fri Oct 18, 2013 1:26 pm

polyglide wrote:Evolution is still a theory.

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote: It's a scientific theory, you need to go away and educate yourself about the difference, as this tired old chestnut makes you look very silly. Evolution has been proven by a massive weight of empirical evidence, the sheer ignorance required to either not know or deny this is nothing short of astonishing. Every year more peer reviewed empirical evidence is accrued as well, much of it by medical science, where evolution is used to cure disease and manufacture medicines.
Anyone in my opinion who believes that the universe and all it contains came about by chance and without a wonderful intelligence being involved needs urgent medical attention.

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:Well that's just an opinion, whereas it is an irrefutable mathematical certainty that complexity comes from random events given enough time and repetition.
I can understand anyone being confused regarding the past use of the earth, the dinosaurs being a prime example but there are far more involvements in the universe that make no sense to us that pose a far greater answer than the fact that the earth was used at one time for the creation of creatures the reason for we do not know and are realy of no concern to us.

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:Not a very coherent sentence I must say, but that aside, who are you claiming is confused? Science has discovered a great deal about how the earth was formed and about dinosaurs, your message from a being you claim has limitless knowledge didn't even mention one word about them, because the people who wrote the bible were entirely ignorant of dinosaurs, proof positive that bible is entirely man made. These facts and others about the universe may well be of no concern to you, but that's only because they fairly obviously highlight that your beliefs are based on ignorance and superstition.

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