Does the UK need a 'true leftist' party?

(Not sure if this has been brought up before, apologies if it has but I couldn't see anything like it on the list)

I just read an article on the Guardian website (I retweeted it on Twitter) that discusses the ongoing problems on the left of politics in the UK. It asks whether the left need a leftist version of UKIP to effectively challenge Labour's dominance of the left. Reading the article and the interviews they took for the article it seems that the writer thinks it is possible due to the fragmentation of the relationship between the unions and the Labour Party, however, it is unlikely to happen any time soon.

so what do we all think? Is it needed? Is it indeed possible?

Personally I think it is needed but I'm not sure how likely it is to happen or indeed if it would be successful.

Tash

Hi Tash welcome to Cutting Edge,

I think if the Unions pulled away from the Labour party they could start a new leftist party, but to win a general election they would have to appeal to a broad spectre of the public, and I do not know if that would be possible maybe all we need is for Ed Miliband and the Labour MPs to get a rocket or a kick up the Butt.   The Labour party has given the UK so many good things since it was formed, before Labour party was formed we were ruled by the Tory party there was no other choice but thanks to the Tolpudddle Martyrs and there sacrefice we had choice, so like yourself I am not certain oftheway forward. 

A commentator recently referred to "The four parties of the Centre", which is possibly due to our instinctive distaste for extremism.

Cameron knows that a shift to the right could send the Conservative Party into an orbit beyond Pluto, and Blair demonstrated in 1997 how frightened big business had been of his predecessors' expressed policies.

Leaving the Miliband caravan heading towards a New Left Lite.

There are four tory parties, who control the media totally. A party based on the working people of the UK could break their power quite fast. The 'we can't win by being honest' guff is based on the fact that we haven't challenged them since the miners' strike, which the mugs failed to support adequately because we failed to establish a free press in the 'seventies. At worst they will have to take us into account: as it is we'll be eating grass within a few years, and still voting for the crooks.

Scargill lost the Miners' Strike by giving a hostage to the right-wing Press. He didn't call a strike ballot, because he couldn't rely upon getting an affirmative, so making defeat pretty inevitable.

Thank you for the kind welcome Redflag. I agree the unions pulling away from the Labour Party would not necessarily be a success in terms of the fact that they would probably be unable to appeal to a broad spectrum of people. The Labour Party has somewhat lost its way and has almost completely forgotten the fact that without the trade unions they wouldn't exist in the first place (we can largely thank Blair for that). A union break would be akin (like the guardian article suggests) to a left version of UKIP who have no chance of getting into power but who can create trouble for the 3 main parties.

Oftenwrong - yes this country does have a particular distaste for extremism (the lack of success by the BUF in the 1930s is a good example). Miliband must not go down the Blair route too much, he must be his own leader. At the end of the day he positioned himself as a break from Blair and that is why he was voted as leader not his brother. But as you said he is left lite...the coke zero if you like of leftist politics: claims it tastes the same as coke but just doesn't get anywhere near it.

Penderyn - Agreed. The miners strike was perhaps the last real challenge to the government. The problem is in part that back then workers were far more politically motivated/active than they are now. TU's are significantly weaker than they were and truth is that not as many people care about political policies as they used to. Look at voting numbers, they have decreased at the last few general elections. My grandfather was a shop steward many years ago and he was very politically active but I actually think he'd be spinning in his grave at the sight of workers not fighting for what is right and just. It is a shame.

oftenwrong wrote:Scargill lost the Miners' Strike by giving a hostage to the right-wing Press.  He didn't call a strike ballot, because he couldn't rely upon getting an affirmative, so making defeat pretty inevitable.

The only things to do with the rich men's press are either to cause strikes amongst the workers or burn the buildings down.    They are a much worse enemy than Hitler ever was, desperate for the destruction of the working class and any vestige of democracy that's left.   If you want to please them, cut your own throat.

Tashski: it's been worse before. Eventually the mugs learn they either fight or starve, and I don't think voting for any of the tory parties is going to have any effect on that.

Maybe new 'Labour Unionist' Party is required. If I was a left winger there would be nowhere on a ballot paper to put my X right now

So you think we should put our X at the Tory party candidate blue, dream on I would cut both hands off without anaesthetic before I would vote Tory or UKIP and since 2010 Lib-Dem, I suppose what we are going to have to do is become more vocal towards the Labour party every member and every Labour voter.
 
It was not long ago blue you were patting the Labour party on the back and today brings out your true self.

Redflag. I doubt whether people on the left are really interested in so-called ‘advice’ from someone so right-wing that he supports the flat tax, but I don’t think blueturando is actually suggesting that any of us might be dumb enough to vote for the Tories. However, he does like to demonstrate the classic troll behaviour of one minute making you think he’s oh-so-moderate and the next minute trying to annoy you by defending the indefensible (as when a UN representative dared to criticise the bedroom tax).
 
Apart from one poll after Cameron had pretended to veto an EU treaty, Labour has been in the lead ever since Ed Miliband became leader. About half of those who were duped into voting for the Lib Dems in 2010 deserted them once they joined the coalition from hell, and a large percentage of those switched their allegiance to Labour.
 
According to Anthony Wells of UK Polling Report, to win the next election outright, the Tories would need a 7% lead over Labour. He also says that support for Labour is ‘firmer’ than that for the other parties; in other words, those who say they intend to vote Labour next time are more resolute than those expressing support for the other parties. Can you really imagine anyone who didn’t fall for Cameron’s lies in 2010, and the promises he never intended to keep, switching their vote to him next time? The 710,000 public sector workers who’ve lost their jobs? The disabled people kicked out of their homes by Iain Duncan Smith? Those who thought the NHS was safe in Tory hands? The millions of families who are now worse off than when this scum sneaked into office?
 
Voters in Boston and Skegness might just give UKIP their first MP in 2015, and put it on a par with the Green Party, but it isn’t a serious contender. As the Liberal Democrats are holed beneath the water line, anyone who is serious about getting shot of the Tories has no choice but to vote Labour. I don’t wish to sound complacent, but I can’t see how Labour can fail to win in 2015, and the bookies agree with me. The Tory media (which for the last three years has included the BBC) will continually try to invent a ‘crisis’ surrounding Ed Miliband’s leadership. Andrew Neil was at it only yesterday, talking up one poll which had Labour only 3% ahead. Yet within hours, another poll had Labour 6% ahead. The common feature in every poll is ‘Labour ahead’, and you don’t change your leader when you’re winning.
 
The Green Party has some good policies, and Caroline Lucas is happy to be called a socialist, but outside of Brighton it appears to have little chance of winning parliamentary seats. The National Health Action Party, founded by Dr Richard Taylor (who was an independent MP for nine years), is a worthy but single-issue party. The Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition has provided a home for some left-wingers who are frustrated by the right-wing tendencies of the mainstream parties, but its vote in elections has been derisory. Plaid Cymru is a left-wing party but it only operates in Wales. We don’t need any more parties, we need left unity. Tony Benn once said that “the Labour Party was not a socialist party but a party with socialists in it”. While the Labour Party is good enough for the likes of him and Dennis Skinner, it’s good enough for me, especially as it’s the only party capable of evicting the Tories in 2015.

Hi Redflag......You seem to missed what I was trying to say. I am not slagging off the Labour party here, I am just saying that if you are a left winger then you probably would not go along with centre ground policies/views of Blair and Miliband. I would also say the same on Cameron as most right wingers would say he is too liberal and stuck firmly on the centre ground too and therefore we see a surge in support to UKIP from these people.

Many people both Labour and Tory supporters would say that isnt much difference between the two...and you could probably now chuck the Lib dems into that mix, now that they've actually had to support or put policies in place rather than pretend to be everyones mate

IVAN....I do no support the housing benefit reduction for spare rooms. As I have said many times before, there are many Tory policies I do not agree with...I am not a sheep and do not blindly support all that this government does...Just because!!! You can also add the Royal mail sell off to that....such a bad idea!!!

And I am not given Redflag or anyone 'Advice', I am just expressing my opinion on a thread started by Tashski

IVAN Never again will I take anything blue says with more than a pinch of salt, thank you for your post it has opened my eyes a lot wider, I thank God I was not fooled by Cameron in May 2010 but there again the entire population of Scotland was not fooled either but that has been happening since the MAGGOT,I do believe the best celebration on her death was here in Scotland.
 
I think the NHA party will do well in May 2015 more than likely will take the place of the Prostitute party (L/Ds) as from what I have read and heard they will be ANNIHILATED in 2015, the L/Ds are having their conference here in Glasgow this weekend and I am hoping to go to the SECC and show them just how DETESTED they are here in Scotland, The Tories will get a very warm reception in Manchester from the Bedroom Tax protesters.

blueturando wrote:-
centre ground policies/views of Blair and Miliband.

Oh, not ‘Red Ed’ then?
 
If you can’t tell the difference between Blair and Miliband, I feel sorry for you. Let’s make it simple – one couldn’t wait for us to bomb Syria last month and one stopped Cameron's plan dead in its tracks. One crept round Murdoch, one has met him head on and was responsible for the Leveson Inquiry, though fat lot of good that did when Cameron is running scared of Murdoch and still has his plants – Gove and Hunt – in his government because he doesn’t dare sack them.
 

I would also say the same on Cameron as most right wingers would say he is too liberal and stuck firmly on the centre ground too

Now you’re really stretching the grounds of credibility. Cameron is the leader of the most right-wing government in the UK in living memory, probably since the 19th century. The sick, poor and disabled are demonised, the BBC has been censored, social cleansing has been carried out in London, and everything apart from the judiciary and military is being privatised as fast as possible. Meanwhile, government ministers are regularly caught out lying in true Goebbels fashion. I can’t imagine why the Tories haven’t replaced that scribble tree logo with a swastika by now. Centre ground? In your dreams.
 

Many people both Labour and Tory supporters would say that isnt much difference between the two...

Really? They can’t see any differences between what was going on before May 2010 and what has happened since? I can, can’t you? 40,000 people using foodbanks then, 400,000 now? VAT cut for one year to 15% to stimulate growth in the economy, immediately raised to 20% by Osborne to snuff out the growth that had appeared by May 2010? Were NHS waiting times rising and thousands of nurses being sacked? Was Duncan Smith’s cruel test in place before 2010, telling terminally ill cancer patients – like our late member astra – that they were fit to work?
 

I do not support the housing benefit reduction for spare rooms.

In that case, instead of following the Shapps line and trying to make an issue of her nationality - as you did on another thread - you should be pleased that a UN rapporteur is so scathing about it.
 
Getting back to the thread title….. what the UK needs, in my opinion, is not more parties to fragment the progressive vote, but for the Labour Party to be a ‘true leftist’ party, and I’m hopeful that it will be. Ed Miliband has made oblique references to 1945; maybe he’s going to take a leaf out of the Tories’ book and not reveal most of his plans until after the next election.

Ivan good post and very true, when you see Ed Miliband's parentage both his mother and father were to the left in their politics, I know there are some Labour members and voters that are fearful of Blairite policies coming from ED and this could be part of the reason for the low polls he has at the moment.
 
I think the Labour party conference will let us all know what he is about and think he will let us know some of what is going to be in the Labour Manifesto for the 2015 general election, but unlike the manifesto of the Tory party in 2010 it will be the TRUTH, now thats a word the right wing do not understand at all, with their lying from the beginning (2010) to their lying about the stats on unemployment, or the stats that IBS gives us; he has to appear before the WP committee in the H.O.C. next month which was supposed to be on the 4th September but called it off with some lying excuse. I suppose he is athome trying to think up more LIES before he has to face the committee.

It will be a 'truth' established by the fuhrers, without democratic decisions by any British people, as usual.

Ivan and Redflag....you can say what you like and pretend all you like too, but don't take my word for it....just ask your fellow Labour supporters.
Do you think that UKIP just conjured up support from nowhere? No, they are mostly dissafected Tories who think Cameron is too Centre ground.

Anyway, I was trying to have a decent debate and coversation with you on a thread started by a left winger who was asking if there needs to be a 'True leftist party' and all I got back was aggression, so from now on I just wont bother engaging with either of you. And if you want to vent your anger, then direct it at Tashski and other Labour supporters who agree with her....I dont see you argueing with Penderyn when he says there are 4 Tory partys or OW when he says Miliband is left 'lite'....why is that? peace out

Blue that is not news about UKIP we on here have always known they are nothing more than "The Second Hand Tory Party", if Cameron is centre ground Ed Miliband must be the Very Far Left going by your judgement.   He is selling off the Royal Mail privatizing OUR NHS something Thatcher backed off from although she did neglect the NHS during the 18 years of Tory rule.
 
As for having a debate with us on here blue that is not a problem with me I tend to think it's you that has the problem, because we do not agree with your right wing views and what the Tory party are doing to the UK, and its not just their policies either have you seen the report about MPs Expenses "Snouts in the Trough" £98.1 million in expenses AND THAT IS RIGHT ACROSS ALL PARTIES Tory Lib-Dem Labour and the DUP Ian Paisley Jnr is the worst.   They ram it down the rest of us the country its SKINT and WE MUST pay down the deficit although we did not CAUSE IT, so when you come on here and say that what Cameron and his shower of SCUMBAGS are doing to the people of the UK is fine expect us to get hot under the collar.

blueturando. I’ve just been re-reading my last message to you and can’t see any “aggression” in it - are you referring to “feeling sorry for you” and suggesting that you’re “stretching the grounds of credibility”? If you think that’s unpleasant, I suggest you visit a few other sites, on some of which you can be accused of having an incestuous relationship with your mother; this forum is genteel by comparison. Still, if you’re unwilling – or maybe unable – to respond to criticism of your views, then don’t "bother engaging", that’s your choice.
 
The fact that some right-wing freaks think that equal marriage and leaving the EU are the most important issues in politics doesn’t put Cameron in the centre ground, when his government is demonising the poor, sick and disabled, telling immigrants to "go home" and privatising everything except the judiciary and military. If a Labour government set about nationalising the entire state, I doubt if you or your right-wing friends would call that centre-ground politics.
 
I have no reason to “direct anger” at Tashski, who is a friend of mine from Twitter, sickchip or Penderyn. I don’t attack people on the left who want a new party because, although I think they’re wrong, I understand and share some of their frustrations and I know that their hearts are in the right place. The centre-ground in British politics has moved a long way to the right since the 1970s. By comparison, Merkel’s CDU/CSU coalition in Germany, which will probably retain power in next Sunday’s general election, is no further to the right than the Blairites.
 
For anyone on the left who can’t bring themselves to vote Labour, the Greens have to be the best option - not another new party - but whether they can develop pockets of support big enough to give them more than their one MP in Brighton seems unlikely. The lesson from 2010 is that when the progressive vote fragments (with over 6 million people supporting a left-wing Liberal Democrat manifesto), the door is left open for corrupt scum like Cameron and his assorted millionaire school friends, sociopaths and Murdoch plants to crawl into power, destroy the fabric of the state and remove it from democratic accountability. I’m pragmatic enough to know there's only one party which can sling those gangsters out of office.

Ivan wrote: For anyone on the left who can’t bring themselves to vote Labour, the Greens have to be the best option - not another new party - but whether they can develop pockets of support big enough to give them more than their one MP in Brighton seems unlikely.

Short of having a Plaid Cymru candidate (and the next Gerrymandering Act will obviously remove all 'Welsh' constituencies to make things equal in that respect) the Greens are certainly the best existing choice. If only they stood in more constituencies!

Assume the Greens had control!Higher energy costs, more windmills, higher carbon taxes, loss of any semblance of manufacturing due to the costs of running a business, higher taxes because the few still in a job have to pay more for ludicrous, cuddly, right on politics that normally stop when somebody leaves full time education. Yeah thanks for the alternative leftish party, why not change the wanne be but not quite party presently in opposition, you know the one that has no intention of changing a thing if/when it gets into power, though it won't be their fault. 

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt." (Abraham Lincoln)

tlttf wrote:Assume the Greens had control!Higher energy costs, more windmills, higher carbon taxes, loss of any semblance of manufacturing due to the costs of running a business, higher taxes because the few still in a job have to pay more for ludicrous, cuddly, right on politics that normally stop when somebody leaves full time education. Yeah thanks for the alternative leftish party, why not change the wanne be but not quite party presently in opposition, you know the one that has no intention of changing a thing if/when it gets into power, though it won't be their fault. 

I don't understand. You prefer to be robbed ragged by the idle thieves who own the Noise Machine, is that it? That seems an odd taste! Do you suppose I support the Tory Mark 3 Party perhaps, or what? Your post doesn't seem to me entirely lucid.

Not at all Penderyn, I've read your posts and you appear as disillusioned by the politicians on offer as I am, we simply see a different alternative. Entirely lucid post in my opinion.

tlttf wrote:Not at all Penderyn, I've read your posts and you appear as disillusioned by the politicians on offer as I am, we simply see a different alternative. Entirely lucid post in my opinion.

 
If the present gov't is all that is on offer tittf, I would tend to want to leave the land of my birth to a better more fairer society, one that believed in community and peoples health and welfare.

The hands on the levers of Power since 2010 have been the hands of the already wealthy.

But they are numerically inferior to the majority, so what are the population of Britain prepared to do about that?

" But they are numerically inferior to the majority, so what are the population of Britain prepared to do about that?"

There will be a whole load of grumbling and all sorts of anguished cries about the injustice of it all but, ultimately, the Great British public will return to power the very party which is the perpetrator of its misfortunes. Part of the reason for this is the absence of a credible alternative around which to rally. Joe Public does not want a true leftist party, and it does not have anything sufficiently reliable and trustworthy just off centre in that general direction. In short, many may hate the Tories in theory but they are , nonetheless, prepared to put up with the tribulations always associated with them...

Phil Hornby wrote:-
the Great British public will return to power the very party which is the perpetrator of its misfortunes……Joe Public does not want a true leftist party

That sounds like ‘Stockholm syndrome’ on a national scale! I think you might be being unduly pessimistic. Remember that the Tories haven’t won an election since 1992, they have a dwindling number of foot soldiers and they’re very unpopular with women voters. Furthermore, from Ashcroft’s polling, it appears that the ‘Labour doorstep’ campaign in the marginal seats is paying dividends.
 
Unlike our ‘lucid’ contributor, who used neither facts nor sources to support his latest moronic rant, the above comments are based on some evidence:-
 
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2287256/Tory-Party-run-like-HMV--way-says-Conservative-MP-Clacton-DOUGLAS-CARSWELL.html
 
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ladies-turning-mumsnet-poll-reveals-2276653
 
http://liberalconspiracy.org/2013/09/16/the-tories-have-a-bigger-problem-than-just-ukip/
 
Joe Public wants leftist solutions to problems. Joe Public doesn’t want the Royal Mail privatised, wants a state-run NHS and would like the railways nationalised. The reason Joe Public doesn’t want a leftist party to fulfil his or her wishes is because of being told over and over again that left is ‘bad’ and trade unions (but not big corporations) are wicked and undemocratic. Joe Public has been brainwashed with that tripe by corrupt media tycoons like Rupert Murdoch, who has just chosen a PM for Australia who makes George W. Bush look intelligent. If the indoctrination works in the UK in 2015 as it did in 2010, I suppose you could be right. Depressing thought.
 
http://www.independentaustralia.net/2013/politics/tony-abbott-and-our-new-murdochracy/

Re: Does the UK need a 'true leftist' party?


The simple answer in my opinion is no. What we need is a Government for all. What is the point of having an available workforce if there is no wealth creation to provide the jobs. The closest we ever got to that ideal was with Tony Blair, who because of the Iraq war has been totally castigated. We now have Ed Miliband busying himself in an attempt to distance himself from Blair with the slogan “One Britain” an aim which unless some of Blairs forward thinking is adopted will not be achieved.



We need a Government for all by all, not just the wealthy for the wealthy or the working class for the working classes but a Government with all types debating what is and is not right for Britain. Why do we have Trades Unions who have to spend every working day opposing Government policies, instead of working with Governments and employers, and of course a Government and employers prepared to work along side Trades Unions.



How on earth are the wealthy ever going to understand the needs of the poor, or how are the poor ever going to be able to run business’s to employ the poor and in turn pay the taxes for a fair welfare system.



The system as is is totally bollixed up and needs a complete rewrite, but who’s got enough bottle for such a move.

tlttf wrote:removed for abusive comments

Sorry tittf but Ivan has hit the nail on the head, its just like the "DRIP DRIP" effect the Tories and the Prostitute party started the minute they where in power Its all Labour parties Mess, which we all know now that was Downright LIES & SPIN   to cover up what was coming from there VILE IDEOLOGY .   We all know now it was the BANKS & Hedge fund managers that caused the mess YET they keep on telling us it was Labours fault, but not to worry the people of the UK WILL work it out and then all Tories watch out for the BACK LASH because you will face the ANGER and the power of the great Brittish people.

bobby wrote:The problem we have with the "drip drip" effect is the Tories have had 40 months of practically zero opposition to their drip feeding, Labour are running out of time if they feel they can reverse the trend in the 20 months remaining before the next GE, all without a Tame Media  the Tory scum enjoy.

Thank you bobby but with what people are suffering under this shower of Nasty balls of Hate & Spite, the anti-cut & austerity movement should help and if Ed Miliband and the Labour MPs should be able to get the truth out there and I do not think that all the newspapers or tv stations are on the side of this gov't that is full of Spivs & Shysters.

tlttf wrote:Not at all Penderyn, I've read your posts and you appear as disillusioned by the politicians on offer as I am, we simply see a different alternative. Entirely lucid post in my opinion.

I simply didn't understand your post. Perhaps I'm dim? It has been said!

bobby wrote:The problem we have with the "drip drip" effect is the Tories have had 40 months of practically zero opposition to their drip feeding, Labour are running out of time if they feel they can reverse the trend in the 20 months remaining before the next GE, all without a Tame Media  the Tory scum enjoy.

 Yes - this is what happens when you decide it is better to please Murdoch than to have members who work and meet others who do the same. Blair is not dead!

Penderyn wrote:

bobby wrote:The problem we have with the "drip drip" effect is the Tories have had 40 months of practically zero opposition to their drip feeding, Labour are running out of time if they feel they can reverse the trend in the 20 months remaining before the next GE, all without a Tame Media  the Tory scum enjoy.

 Yes - this is what happens when you decide it is better to please Murdoch than to have members who work and meet others who do the same.   Blair is not dead!

Your not wrong Penderyn if you watch for my next thread you will see Tory Lite is not coming from the Labour party this time.

Penderyn wrote:

tlttf wrote:Not at all Penderyn, I've read your posts and you appear as disillusioned by the politicians on offer as I am, we simply see a different alternative. Entirely lucid post in my opinion.

I simply didn't understand your post.   Perhaps I'm dim?   It has been said!

I doubt that your dim Pendryn, perhaps your trying to put too much emphasise on the wording. I appreciate your politics are from the left, my post was simply highlighting that the Green party would stifle the majority of manufacturers by imposing more and more regulations whilst chasing their weird Green agenda that simply benefits the UK's competitors.

The UK needs general strikes, persistent street protests, defacing of ballot slips at election time, occupation of buildings/spaces associated with officialdom/establishment, etc.

- Of course, it'll never happen.....we're a nation of masochistic, measley cap doffers curtseying as we walk backwards into Dickensian Britain.

sickchip wrote:The UK needs general strikes, persistent street protests, defacing of ballot slips at election time, occupation of buildings/spaces associated with officialdom/establishment, etc......

Britain had experience of such in the 1970s when Edward Heath demanded an answer to the question, "Who governs Britain?" The response produced a 3-day week, working by candlelight, uncollected rubbish, unburied bodies and a swift reversion to the Dickensian lifestyle.

Ultimately, voters decided they preferred having the lights on, accompanied by functioning public services.

oftenwrong wrote:

sickchip wrote:The UK needs general strikes, persistent street protests, defacing of ballot slips at election time, occupation of buildings/spaces associated with officialdom/establishment, etc......

Britain had experience of such in the 1970s when Edward Heath demanded an answer to the question, "Who governs Britain?"  The response produced a 3-day week, working by candlelight, uncollected rubbish, unburied bodies and a swift reversion to the Dickensian lifestyle.

Ultimately, voters decided they preferred having the lights on, accompanied by functioning public services.

Maybe. They didn't put Heath back, however.

sickchip wrote:The UK needs general strikes, persistent street protests, defacing of ballot slips at election time, occupation of buildings/spaces associated with officialdom/establishment, etc.

- Of course, it'll never happen.....we're a nation of masochistic, measley cap doffers curtseying as we walk backwards into Dickensian Britain.

I agree sickchip and until they people start to wake up and smell the coffee the Likes of Cameron and Cleggy will walk all over us with there boots on.