Does the UK need a 'true leftist' party?

First topic message reminder :

(Not sure if this has been brought up before, apologies if it has but I couldn't see anything like it on the list)

I just read an article on the Guardian website (I retweeted it on Twitter) that discusses the ongoing problems on the left of politics in the UK. It asks whether the left need a leftist version of UKIP to effectively challenge Labour's dominance of the left. Reading the article and the interviews they took for the article it seems that the writer thinks it is possible due to the fragmentation of the relationship between the unions and the Labour Party, however, it is unlikely to happen any time soon.

so what do we all think? Is it needed? Is it indeed possible?

Personally I think it is needed but I'm not sure how likely it is to happen or indeed if it would be successful.

Tash

sickchip wrote:The UK needs general strikes, persistent street protests, defacing of ballot slips at election time, occupation of buildings/spaces associated with officialdom/establishment, etc.

- Of course, it'll never happen.....we're a nation of masochistic, measley cap doffers curtseying as we walk backwards into Dickensian Britain.

I agree sickchip and until they people start to wake up and smell the coffee the Likes of Cameron and Cleggy will walk all over us with there boots on.

Harold Wilson became PM with 39% of the votes cast, in October 1974, succeeded by Jim Callaghan.

Five years later a lady PM took over, and the rest is History.

oftenwrong wrote:Harold Wilson became PM with 39% of the votes cast, in October 1974, succeeded by Jim Callaghan.

Five years later a lady PM took over, and the rest is History.

No - the key bit of history is that in 1951 Labour got the biggest vote ever given to a political party here, and meekly accepted the decision of the boundary commissioners to put the tories in. Thatcher was just a typical example of what happens when the media prevent our talking to one another about what concerns us.

"The Media" is having to deal with the strongest-ever attack on its continued existence. The Internet provides not only instant news but also instant commentary upon that news. Every one of us with access to a keyboard now has a voice.

So use it.

oftenwrong wrote:"The Media" is having to deal with the strongest-ever attack on its continued existence.  The Internet provides not only instant news but also instant commentary upon that news.  Every one of us with access to a keyboard now has a voice.

So use it.

As we see everywhere, it can bring people out to demonstrate, but they are always fooled subsequently by the real, serious Noise Machine. It is like the way peasants can always change governments, but never the real social system that decides their policy. Where do we get discussion, for instance, of the need to renationalise the railways and the power companies? - yet masses of us want exactly those things. The Noise Machine is there to tell us what is 'important', and its not us, ever.

I know exactly what you mean, Penderyn. When I was ten years old I ran away from home. But it got dark, so I went back.

Penderyn wrote:

oftenwrong wrote:"The Media" is having to deal with the strongest-ever attack on its continued existence.  The Internet provides not only instant news but also instant commentary upon that news.  Every one of us with access to a keyboard now has a voice.

So use it.

As we see everywhere, it can bring people out to demonstrate, but they are always fooled subsequently by the real, serious Noise Machine.    It is like the way peasants can always change governments, but never the real social system that decides their policy.   Where do we get discussion, for instance, of the need to renationalise the railways and the power companies? - yet masses of us want exactly those things.   The Noise Machine is there to tell us what is 'important', and its not us, ever.

I think this time Penderyn thngs are very different I think that Ed Miliband has learned by the passed mistakes of the Labour party, he has been listening to his members and voters and I would urge you if possible to watch the Labour party conference because he will show which way Ed intends to take the Labour party, I myself am hoping for some of your suggestions to come out from Ed during the conference all he has to do is kick the Tories and Lib-Dems out of office in 2015 with good policies that are FAIR FOR ALL not just for the ELITE at the top of the Tory & Lib-Dems Donor list.

It may be wholly unjustified and lack tangible reason, but the British public just does not like Ed Miliband and that will have an obvious effect upon the Labour vote in May 2015.

 Add to this that there are no clear or compelling policy directions emanating from the Party and we have a recipe for a poor result and another win by default for Cameron.

If that happens the last few years will seem like a genteel tea party by comparison...       

Phil Hornby wrote:It may be wholly unjustified and lack tangible reason, but the British public just does not like Ed Miliband and that will have an obvious effect upon the Labour vote in May 2015.

 Add to this that there are no clear or compelling policy directions emanating from the Party and we have a recipe for a poor result and another win by default for Cameron.

If that happens the last few years will seem like a genteel tea party by comparison...       

I agree with your outcome that if Cameron gets back into power again PH, I just hope the people think hard before putting there X on there ballot paper otherwise you may well start digging the UKs GRAVE now ready for burial or cremation in May 2015.

That UKIP rally was a great success for Cameron. They've nearly removed themselves from the ballot paper.

oftenwrong wrote:That UKIP rally was a great success for Cameron.  They've nearly removed themselves from the ballot paper.

It also showed us there nothing more than a bunch of DISGRUNTLED Tories with mouths to match OW.

UKIP is extremely vulnerable to individuals 'planted' by the Tory Party to discredit it. Not that much discrediting is necessary.

But it would be quite a natural behaviour for a True Blue agent provocateur to assume the mantle of a bigoted and thoroughly nasty specimen whose utterances would put off the semi-decent voter.

Don't imagine that Cameron's clique hasn't been involved at the dirtier fringes of the UKIP Conference...

oftenwrong wrote:I know exactly what you mean, Penderyn.  When I was ten years old I ran away from home.  But it got dark, so I went back.

Try again!

Phil Hornby wrote:UKIP is extremely vulnerable to individuals 'planted' by the Tory Party to discredit it. Not that much discrediting is necessary.

But it would be quite a natural behaviour for a True Blue agent provocateur to assume the mantle of a bigoted and thoroughly nasty specimen whose utterances would put off the semi-decent voter.

Don't imagine that Cameron's clique hasn't been involved at the dirtier fringes of the UKIP Conference...

As I understand it, though, Whatsisname has been set upon simply for using the word 'slut' in its dictionary sense while making the usual Anti-National Front unjoke at the Englischer Madchen. I'd see many better reasons to get 'em.

Still a way to go before May 2015 looms and the attendant necessity arises to really put the boot in ...            

Phil Hornby wrote:Still a way to go before May 2015 looms and the attendant necessity arises to really put the boot in ...            

What I do not understand is why Farage wants to win a whole load of seats in the EU election but at the same time wants the UK out of the EU where is Farages thinking, plus this is not not the first time that one of Farages candidates just after the local election some of his new councillors had to stand down due to putting there foot in there mouth PH.

Power Games, Redflag.

Parliament makes it look all serious and sonorous, but that's what men do most of the time. Game-play.

oftenwrong wrote:Power Games, Redflag.

Parliament makes it look all serious and sonorous, but that's what men do most of the time.  Game-play.

Thanks OW but Farage thinks by winning seats in the EU parliament he will be able to bring the UK out of the EU.

Many think now that Mr. Farage is a busted flush.

Put him in the same box as the other hoaxer, Boris.

oftenwrong wrote:Many think now that Mr. Farage is a busted flush.

Put him in the same box as the other hoaxer, Boris.

I think you are being too kind OW, let us call a spade a spade so hoaxer translates to bloody LIAR.

oftenwrong wrote:"The Media" is having to deal with the strongest-ever attack on its continued existence.  The Internet provides not only instant news but also instant commentary upon that news.  Every one of us with access to a keyboard now has a voice.

So use it.

Is it a good thing though?

Millions of people providing 'comment' just becomes babble and background noise. Even if many of those people make sense and have something interesting to contribute, it is simply lost in an avalanche of opinion. It's all very well being frustrated about the state of the nation, etc; but much energy and time, however well intended, is wasted at the keyboard.

A smaller band of people speaking on behalf of many can provide focus, clarity, direction, and unity of voice. Hence many have hope in the Labour party. The trouble is the Labour party have become beholden to the creed of neo-liberal capitalists, and there is a need for a party with 'left-wing' beliefs to galvanise the millions of internet 'commentators', and distil the white noise into something more coherent and focused.

What's your opinion about collective networks like "Mumsnet" or even Cutting Edge, as agents for change, sickchip?

sickchip wrote:The UK needs general strikes, persistent street protests, defacing of ballot slips at election time, occupation of buildings/spaces associated with officialdom/establishment, etc.

- Of course, it'll never happen.....we're a nation of masochistic, measley cap doffers curtseying as we walk backwards into Dickensian Britain.

Sorry sickchip I only agree with you on one thing general strike, the rest is not needed at all if nothing moves right across the UK and we all sit at home after telling Cameron that until he calls an General Election, and we will stay out and not budge and by staying at home takes Scam..er..ons pleasure away by not been able to turn the water cannon of the hard workers of the UK.

Just watched Ed Balls, yesterday watched the other Ed. Must say to offer "no change" other than borrow or tax more isn't a vote winner to me.
Red do you know many people that can afford to go on a long term strike? I know the union barons still get paid but what about the worker?

Personally I'm off to Cancun tomorrow for a few weeks as the stress of trying to make sense of the Labour Party Conference is beyond me. The only honest labour person I've heard over the weekend is McBride, now that should send shivers down your spine. tara for now.

Wow I see I have stirred a debate. Go me!

All jokes aside, there's been some great points raised but I think Ivan has hit the proverbial nail on the head with this:

"Joe Public wants leftist solutions to problems. Joe Public doesn’t want the Royal Mail privatised, wants a state-run NHS and would like the railways nationalised. The reason Joe Public doesn’t want a leftist party to fulfil his or her wishes is because of being told over and over again that left is ‘bad’ and trade unions (but not big corporations) are wicked and undemocratic. Joe Public has been brainwashed with that tripe by corrupt media tycoons like Rupert Murdoch, who has just chosen a PM for Australia who makes George W. Bush look intelligent. If the indoctrination works in the UK in 2015 as it did in 2010, I suppose you could be right. Depressing thought."

The idea of 'the left' brings up so many negative connotations in the way 'the right' doesn't. So much so that right wingers use 'lefties' as an insult, which I find hilarious since us 'lefties' are proud to be so. Hardly an insult! IF a leftist party existed I'm not sure they'd be successful (as I said in my initial post). I do think it could be useful but it does have the potential to split the Labour vote which could be a problem. I do think Labour has to work harder to grab the (ever growing) disillusioned group of the working class.

*my apologies is this a bit all over the place I was trying to type on my phone with a kitten climbing all over me*

Tashski wrote:Wow I see I have stirred a debate. Go me!

All jokes aside, there's been some great points raised but I think Ivan has hit the proverbial nail on the head with this:

"Joe Public wants leftist solutions to problems. Joe Public doesn’t want the Royal Mail privatised, wants a state-run NHS and would like the railways nationalised. The reason Joe Public doesn’t want a leftist party to fulfil his or her wishes is because of being told over and over again that left is ‘bad’ and trade unions (but not big corporations) are wicked and undemocratic. Joe Public has been brainwashed with that tripe by corrupt media tycoons like Rupert Murdoch, who has just chosen a PM for Australia who makes George W. Bush look intelligent. If the indoctrination works in the UK in 2015 as it did in 2010, I suppose you could be right. Depressing thought."

The idea of 'the left' brings up so many negative connotations in the way 'the right' doesn't. So much so that right wingers use 'lefties' as an insult, which I find hilarious since us 'lefties' are proud to be so. Hardly an insult! IF a leftist party existed I'm not sure they'd be successful (as I said in my initial post). I do think it could be useful but it does have the potential to split the Labour vote which could be a problem. I do think Labour has to work harder to grab the (ever growing) disillusioned group of the working class.

*my apologies is this a bit all over the place I was trying to type on my phone with a kitten climbing all over me*

This was the point about the old, democratic Labour Party - it united industrial militants and progressive socialists with sufficient contacts to be able to stand up to the Noise Machine and its homogenising sludge, and it did so within a democratic framework.   From Shirley Williams on the careerists have been working all out to destroy this structure and make us wholly dependent on the  tory media.   We have to start again from scratch or be slaves, simply.

It's too late. Rules, propaganda, and structures are in place that inhibit and prevent any left-wing movement from gaining any credibility or momentum.

People are in general de-politicised and have lost any inclination to unite. People have become selfish, consumerist, and their primary concern is self-preservation. It is somewhat sad the working classes can't see there is great strength in numbers united in actions to improve their lot - wages, working rights, etc.

Yes, some will argue that there are left-minded people taking positive action and fighting the 'good' fight. Sadly we're talking about pockets of people. The majority of Brits have no interest and DO increasingly buy into the view that lefties are somehow oddball individuals with weird, unrealistic political notions.

Despite the irresponsibility of banks, corporate greed/tax evasion, and recession, it would seem neo-liberal capitalism is still winning the day. A shame!

tlttf wrote:Just watched Ed Balls, yesterday watched the other Ed. Must say to offer "no change" other than borrow or tax more isn't a vote winner to me.
Red do you know many people that can afford to go on a long term strike? I know the union barons still get paid but what about the worker?

Personally I'm off to Cancun tomorrow for a few weeks as the stress of trying to make sense of the Labour Party Conference is beyond me. The only honest labour person I've heard over the weekend is McBride, now that should send shivers down your spine. tara for now.

The only reason you can not make sense of the Labour conference is simple tittf, YOU ARE SO FULL OF TORY BULLSHIT AND IDEOLOGY that you can not see the wood for the trees, I hope you can live with your conscious with your holiday to cancun the majority of WORKING people can not even afford to eat properly never mind an away day to the seaside and that is all down to the party you support.

I see my talk of a general strike upsets you worrying about where will there wages come from if they go on strike, I also see you carry on with Tory LIES Ed Miliband just opened our conference yesterday and Ed Balls did not speak until today Monday 23rd September at 11.00am so while your traveling Ed Balls is speaking and Ed the future PM of the UK in 2015 will not be speaking until tomorrow 24th September.

So in future when you are going to LIE through the back teeth about something your not even in the country to see and then put it on this forum all you have done is SHOWN UP YOURSELF for the LIAR you are, the reason you think McBride is the only thing you found interesting is BECAUSE THAT IS ALL YOU KNOW, with the stabbing in the back within the Tory party Thatcher your most hailed Tory PM and yet the Tories stabbed her in the back, and I wonder how many Tories want to stab Cameron in the back just to jump into his job.

If your intension was to get me not to vote for a Labour gov't in 2015 your post has had the opposite effect it makes me more determined to HELP and make sure there is a Labour gov't at the next general election in 2015, and too make sure the public see through the Tory LIES and SPIN that comes out of No10s FORKED TONGUE LOBBIEST Crosby. 

sickchip wrote:It's too late. Rules, propaganda, and structures are in place that inhibit and prevent any left-wing movement from gaining any credibility or momentum.

People are in general de-politicised and have lost any inclination to unite. People have become selfish, consumerist, and their primary concern is self-preservation. It is somewhat sad the working classes can't see there is great strength in numbers united in actions to improve their lot - wages, working rights, etc.

Yes, some will argue that there are left-minded people taking positive action and fighting the 'good' fight. Sadly we're talking about pockets of people. The majority of Brits have no interest and DO increasingly buy into the view that lefties are somehow oddball individuals with weird, unrealistic political notions.

Despite the irresponsibility of banks, corporate greed/tax evasion, and recession, it would seem neo-liberal capitalism is still winning the day. A shame!

If people are kicked hard enough, they kick back, and the rules of capitalism insist they should be kicked harder and harder.   Too bad we threw away our best boots!

Red - GREAT polemic

No need for abuse red, no lies. Watched Miliband on the AM show on sunday, watched Balls on the politics show today on bbc2 1300 hrs. Your mistake but don't worry an easy one to make. Wouldn't even try to change your mind regarding politics red, you vote for who you want. I just wish people would get this single party nonsense out of their head when the differences between any of the main 3 is minimal, or do you really believe life will be hunky under labour and not more of the shyte that failed this country previously? Still at least you vote and that's got to be good.

Im liking this new 'Socialist' Labour Party and Milibands supposed swerve to the left...So lets see?

Unemployment benefits stops all together after 2 years without work

Welfare caps will remain in place (maybe a higher level for London)

A reduction in universal benefits

No reversal of Tory cuts

VAT rate to remain the same

Benefit payment levels will be dependent on how much social security has been paid in over the years

Question...Will you scrap the 'Bedroom Tax'....Liam Byrne 'We will look at our Bedroom Tax policy nearer the time'...So thats a No then

All sounds good to me, I must be a socialist

Blueturando wrote:    Question...Will you scrap the 'Bedroom Tax'....Liam      Byrne 'We will look at our Bedroom Tax policy nearer the time'...So thats a No then

Good morning Blue.  Never mind what Liam Byrne said, Ed Miliband said he will definitely scrap the Bedroom Tax...So that's a yes then.

tlttf wrote:No need for abuse red, no lies. Watched Miliband on the AM show on sunday, watched Balls on the politics show today on bbc2 1300 hrs. Your mistake but don't worry an easy one to make. Wouldn't even try to change your mind regarding politics red, you vote for who you want. I just wish people would get this single party nonsense out of their head when the differences between any of the main 3 is minimal, or do you really believe life will be hunky under labour and not more of the shyte that failed this country previously? Still at least you vote and that's got to be good.

Quote; I just wish people would get this single party nonsence out of there head end of Quote; Here is my "Quote" if the Tories stopped getting there party funds from BANKS HEDGE FUND MANAGERS & BIG CORPORATIONS, who when in gov't do there upmost to repay them by making us at the bottom of there thoughts and care put Millions into there profit margins.

I was not being abusive tittf I thought all Tory supporters and its MPs where a thick skinned shower, more so with the VILE uncaring policies on the poor and vulnerable of the UK, you do not want me or others to vote for the three main parties that just leaves the Greens or UKIP, now we have it you want us to vote for a party that calls females SLUTS because there fridges are too heavy to move so they can clean behind it, or think its OK to belt someone over there head because they ask a question. Then the leader who wants out of the EU but is willing to take salary and expences from them, a party that is full of DISGRUNTLED Tory MPs Councillors and voters who is more to the right than Scam..er..ons back benches and would treat us worse than Cameron finishing off the privatization of OUR NHS and then the WORKHOUSES would spring up right around the UK NO EFFING THANKS tittf I will and always will STICK WITH LABOUR. 

In the run-up to the next General Election, many candidates will be saying things like, "It's time for a change!"

Don't believe 'em. They're perfectly happy with things as they are, with Power rotating among friends who pretend to oppose each other.

oftenwrong wrote:In the run-up to the next General Election, many candidates will be saying things like, "It's time for a change!"

Don't believe 'em.  They're perfectly happy with things as they are, with Power rotating among friends who pretend to oppose each other.

You got it in one OW, but you did forget to mention the Prostitute party L/Ds they will behave just as nastily as the Tories deperation will set in once they accept the UK are not going to vote for them in any great number, because there will be a few deluded souls that will vote for them poor darlings, but it will not stop them losing seats how many I am not sure will know better nearer to the time of the G.E but if they are expecting the Tories to play nice DREAM ON just because they where in coalition with them. 

Hopefully, Redflag, after the next General Election, the Lib-Dems will be exactly like that unfortunate lingering aroma experienced upon following too closely into the lav after someone. Gone but not forgotten.

oftenwrong wrote:Hopefully, Redflag, after the next General Election, the Lib-Dems will be exactly like that unfortunate lingering aroma experienced upon following too closely into the lav after someone.  Gone but not forgotten.

Your last remark OW I hope is correct, with one diversion Gone but forgotten but not forgotten is what they did to the people of the UK.

I was pleased with Ed at the Conference yesterday. He is looking stronger and speaks well without lines. For me this was a real nail in the Tory coffin with the pledges that matter to the majority of people.
I watched the ITV news and they started with the Labour Conference, unlike the BBC who put it in third order. The pathetic excuses coming from the disgruntled Energy spokeswoman with the fear factor thrown in "there will be blackouts". I say let the greedy shareholders take a knock for once, rather than plead that "investment in new power stations will be affected" All these big so called utilities have had their way under these right wing tyrants and it's high time they were curbed with their unchallenged price rises.

I note expectedly that the Daily rags headlines have been all about the book by that goon McBride and today again mischief fear making headlines. MSN this morning print nothing about the Labour Conference. The country is led by a pro Tory press/media, is this so called democrocy I ask?

Good for you Ed, keep up the pressure. It will be interesting to see the latest polls.

QUOTE: "I say let the greedy shareholders take a knock for once."

Especially since most of the shareholders in Britain's energy suppliers are not British anyway. To use a technical phrase, fuckem! They've been stuffing us for long enough.

I see at last MSN have had something to say about Ed's speech. Don't hold your breath--- "More than half of voters are unconvinced by Ed Miliband’s promise to freeze energy bills, an MSN poll shows, as critics warn of that it could lead to energy blackouts."
They have all fallen for the propaganda laid down by The Daily "TORY" Mail----blackout fears.

This is what Labour up up against, not silly Clegg and arrogant Cameron, but the lousy press/media.

"Critics warn"?? Why don't they say who these so called critics are? The answer is so obvious, but not to the mass fickle readers of The Daily Mail Tory propaganda machine.

Desperation comes to mind.