Do you believe in miracles?

First topic message reminder :

Do miracles actually happen   or are they simply a refuge for the scoundrel    on the make at the expense of the gullible and suggestible  ?

Of course there is the miracle of Slade performing on top of Buck House   but that is not quite what I had in mind.


It really does matter though. JPII has been made a saint - they even dug his body up to celebrate (no kidding! ugh  ). To become a saint in the past there had to be a number of miracles and there was a devil's advocate to ensure the quality. Since the devil's advocate was abolished (by JPII no less  ) and whose job it was to take a sceptical view of the life this has made canonisation easier. Apparently now only one miracle is required. So what are the chances?

Lets play with some figures. There are 1.2 billion Roman Catholics in the world and, for the sake of argument lets assume they live the allotted threescore years and ten. Again, for the sake of argument we can assume that the number of Catholics is stable at around this figure. From this we can estimate that approximately 17 million catholics die each year for whatever reason  . Of these again approximately 4 out of ten will suffer from cancer. This gives us a figure of 6.8 million cancer sufferers who are likely to die from it or complications every year and who are also Roman Catholic. Now we know that about 1:60000 cancers spontaneously remit (that is normal population result amongst theists and atheists alike so I would recommend keep taking the tablets if that is you  ) which indicates that there should be of the order of 285 miracles in the RC population worldwide each year. Remember, it only takes one to make a saint.

Stu, believe me, I have had more than my share of grief in my life as well as experiencing the problems in person in many parts of the world.

As I have said previously, I lost my wife to cancer involving a lingering death over several months which both our children had to experience and suffer and after 38 years the pain can return on reflection.

My faith saw me through, although at times I did question why my wife and why me etc;

However, the problems of ill health and all man's other problems, when you consider the facts are, man made, man has had the option of doing right from wrong and the ills of the world have been brought about by man's choices, you cannot blame anyone else.

There appears nothing fair in life and this is also man made, in one way or another.

I am very sorry for your present position and it is heart felt, words are easy to say but often not used in an appropriate manner, the very last thing I would wish is in any way for you to think I did not have the most best wishes for yourself and the possibility for a better future, I can tell you it is possible from personal experience,
do not stop loving your lost partner, as that would be self destructive, if she is happy, then you should be happy for her, choose how much it hurts.

Just consider that your daughter is on holiday when not with you and make the very best of the times you have with her, children grow up very fast and before you know it you will be the best man at her wedding.

regards.

Polyglide, thank-you for your very kind post. As I too at the moment am posting to a friend on another forum who is dying of cancer. I try to post every day to him and also keep a little humour in my posts to put a smile on his face at times. Even though posting to him puts tears on mine, I am the main one sending him messages etc. I've lost a neighbour and friend through cancer which I spotted being an ex nurse I saw the signs i'm afraid but she could not be saved. I am sorry for your loss it must have been most heartbreaking.

Thanks Stu, and I know how tears feel, over the years I have a bucket full and they do help. How I wish the world was a better place and full of love.

It would help Polyglide, as an atheist I still have as much love for people as those with faith, and I can see the mistakes so to speak in the scriptures. That is why I do not believe.!!

stuart torr wrote:It would help Polyglide, as an atheist I still have as much love for people as those with faith, and I can see the mistakes so to speak in the scriptures. That is why I do not believe.!!

Love is a natural human attribute, one that definitely does not need any religion or philosophy to inspire it. Isn't it a crime that the worst things that men do are as a result (frequently) or perverting this natural human instinct.

Heretic

stuart torr wrote: I try to post every day to him and also keep a little humour in my posts to put a smile on his face at times. Even though posting to him puts tears on mine, I am the main one sending him messages etc. I've lost a neighbour and friend through cancer which I spotted being an ex nurse I saw the signs i'm afraid but she could not be saved. I am sorry for your loss it must have been most heartbreaking.

I don't know how you can do it. I try to write to him as much as I can but it breaks my heart into tiny pieces.

Heretic

It's the ex nurse in me still Heretic, that never goes away, and in cases like peter who is also a friend it comes to the fore.

stuart torr wrote:It's the ex nurse in me still Heretic, that never goes away, and in cases like peter who is also a friend it comes to the fore.

I try to empathise with most people but it can be very draining, especially over the long term (I know it has only been a relatively short time with Peter but no less draining for that). I just do not know what to say to him. Whatever I do say must come from me and my batteries are just running low at the moment.

I'll try and think of something for him soon.

Heretic

Anything at all helps Heretic, I try and drop a bit of humour in aswell to lighten his day up. As long as he knows you are thinking about him that is the main thing mate.

I, as a Christian, believe that the actual days of miracles have passed, I do believe that in certain circumstances God will offer help and comfort, miracles were used as a means of helping those of the time to appreciate that Jesus was the son of God.

These things were made of no consequence when Jesus promised that those who believed in him and repented their sins would be given everlasting life.

The sad fact is that every day we hear of tragic circumstances, be it illness or accidents or just plain baddnes in all it's forms and our feelings are put under stresses that are at times unbearable and I as a Christian often wonder why this should be and have to reconsider my faith.

On reflection I look at why and how and in the end come to the conclusion that man himself is responsible for all our problems other than natural disasters.

My heart goes out to those who have to suffer seeing others suffer, I have had more than my fair share of having to do so, I know that had I not had my faith I would not have been able to deal with some matters.

But I am sure that those who are suffering are comforted by knowing that others are concerned and care about them and keep in contact rather than ignore the problems.

polyglide wrote:

On reflection I look at why and how and in the end come to the conclusion that man himself is responsible for all our problems other than natural disasters.

Who is responsible for natural disasters then?

polyglide wrote:I know that had I not had my faith I would not have been able to deal with some matters.

For me, it is just the opposite.

Not believing in gods means there is no one to blame, no one to shake my fist at and scream the question, "Why?!" Thus when I do experience horrific bouts of pain, I don't have to feel guilty that an intelligence is punishing me and I don't have to try and find "secret meanings" to my pain or develop delusions of grandeur thinking god is preparing me for something special. Plus, there is no one from whom to beg for healing and miracles, illiciting false hope and ultimately anger wondering why an omnipotent god is standing aloof in my greatest time of need. I can be at relative peace knowing simply that what is ... just is, and that makes it far easier to accept than if there was a vast intelligence either through action or inaction that allows this pain to persist.

I know who to blame for my pain, some old dear that could not see a cyclist wearing high visibility at 8:30am on a May morning on a roundabout. Instead of hitting the break she hit the accelerator (gas). The policeman that attended the scene worked out what had happened and he had a quiet word in her ear telling her that if she denied liability then he would prosecute for 'driving without due care and attention', that helped me out a lot later.

As for setting me free from pain, I owe that to the scientific community and the good graces of the NHS(National Health Service[free at the point of delivery for the last 65 years]).

I don't know a lot about ObamaCare but if you have any luck it will be based on the NHS.

Heretic

Heretic wrote:I don't know a lot about ObamaCare but if you have any luck it will be based on the NHS.

No, it's not NHS, unfortunately. There are too many idiots in this country that are paranoid to the n'th degree of our government, and while there is healthy suspicion and healthy mistrust, they go way beyond that. Everything is a conspiracy. It is why America took its proud place next to Iran and North Korea as the only nations who did not sign the Arms Trade Treaty. Why? Because of the cosmic stupidity of the American people - people who thought the Arms Trade Treaty would take away all of their guns (even though the treaty specifically said that it had no power over domestic gun laws).

Instead, the government simply helps subsidize the cost of medical insurance and the cost of medicine - but you still have to pay. How much depends on your income.

But, the Christian conservative right-wingers hate "Obamacare" and have tried to vote it down no less than 47 times and even caused the government to shut down in the hopes of defunding it. Since that hasn't worked, the conservatives are trying to dismantle it piece by piece - and with some success.

One of the things our Jesus-loving brethren did was to take Obamacare to the Supreme Court (where there are plenty of conservative justices). The case involved Obamacare having a mandate that forced all 50 states to expand its Medicaid coverage. Now, Medicaid is essentially medical help for the poor BUT it is really hard to get. You either have to be a caretaker of some sort or be deaf or blind. Otherwise, you get a big "Fk U" in the mail when you try to apply. It doesn't matter if you're dying of the Ebola virus, if you aren't a parent or deaf or blind, forget it. Just pick somewhere to die that isn't inconvenient for those with money.

Anyhow, for the very poor and those with no income, the Medicaid expansion was supposed to be the mechanism by which the very poor could receive medical care. However, thanks to the lawsuit, the Supreme Court decided that each state had the right to decide for itself if it would expand Medicaid to cover the very poor - and once that occurred, Republican and conservative state governors closed ranks and refused to expand Medicaid - leaving the very poor with absolutely NOTHING. No help. No medical care. No financial assistance. No programs. Nothing. If you make less than $17,000 per year, well, here's another big "Fk U" to add to your collection.

Now Obamacare is, once again, back in the Supreme Court. This time, our God-fearing zealots are suing over the mandate that forces religious institution to include contraception on their insurance policies. This kind of crap irritates me because the whole issue of contraception is NOT in the Bible. Anywhere. At all. It comes from a ridiculously strict interpretation of some verse about God getting angry with some guy for spilling his "seed" on the ground - but it doesn't say anything at all about how deliberately preventing a pregnancy is a sin. It just doesn't say that. What's more is that birth control pills are often prescribed to women who have hormone imbalances or other conditions like psoriasis.

Okay, so ... I was willing to make a gritted-teeth concession and say that truly religious employers should be allowed to keep contraception off their insurance policies. I'm talking about if you work for, say, the Catholic Church or a Christian bookstore, or a religious non-profit. But nooooooooo ... that isn't enough by far. Now Obamacare is in the Supreme Court because - get this - Christians want to be exempt from the contraception law if the owners/CEO/president, etc. is personally religious - even if the business itself secular. That's right, folks. This will set a precedent that gives religious bosses the court-sanctioned right to make you, as an employee, adhere to their religion - even when off the clock.

I keep warning people that theocratic fascism is on its way, and if the Christians win this case, well, I think that will be the beginning of the end.

I think it is policies like these that will America being the laughing stock of the world. Not only do Americans deny scientific discoveries because of a misinterpretation of an ancient religion but they both want to keep the means to injure or kill in the hands of as many as possible and to deny those that get hurt or become ill access to healthcare.

How long before it is ordained that if you get shot then it is god's will and so you must rely on your own resources even if you have none.

America is the leader of the free world but it is losing that role very quickly. In the future I can see China, India and the EU competing for the role of world leader but at the moment China seems to be the only one with the desire and the will to achieve it but that will change in the future. At the moment the EU is deep in recession but slowly pulling itself out. With Financial institution more stable than in the past I can see them creating a sustainable way forward that may make them credible in a leadership role.

For the most part the EU has the equivalent of the NHS and it does not treat people that are sick or disabled as a pariah that somehow deserves their pain and discomfort but as a vulnerable minority that, as a civilised society, they have a duty and responsibility to protect.

America has served the world several times in the past century, and served it well, but there seems to of been a change of attitude in the last few decades. America no longer seems to serve the world as it's main priority, which would give it that leadership role that it craves, but it now seems to seek profit first and without that it fails to serve.

Sorry that I've rambled on a bit but that's what happens when you reply to a post before 6:00am.

Good morning all.

Heretic

polyglide wrote:I, as a Christian, believe that the actual days of miracles have passed, I do believe that in certain circumstances God will offer help and comfort, miracles were used as a means of helping those of the time to appreciate that Jesus was the son of God.

These things were made of no consequence when Jesus promised that those who believed in him and repented their sins would be given everlasting life.

"The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species."

Christopher hitchens

Woot!

Another big "hitch slap" from Chris ... RIP.  

When you can read what is actually written and implied, you will begin to understand what is written, until that time learn to read and understand what is wriotten.

polyglide.

What time is the next headcount?

polyglide wrote:When you can read what is actually written and implied,.

Let's see. Are you asking us to read your mind? Would that of been seen as witchcraft in days gone by, indeed probably by you just a few centuries past.

polyglide wrote: you will begin to understand what is written, .

I rarely understand what you write although I sometimes understand what you probably intended to write.

polyglide wrote:until that time learn to read and understand what is wriotten.

When you use words like that it might be just as well to either check the spelling or at least use a spellchecker. Or its that too much to do with spells for you? Since there seems to be one built into this forum (at least that is so in the Chrome Browser) then you might try that one[it underlines words it does not recognise in red]. I have been searching everywhere for a definition of the word "wriotten" just in case I was being unkind to you but since I don't need an excuse to be unkind I suspect that you just misspelled a word. Do you have big fingers? Is it possible you that you pressed the 'i' and the 'o' when you just meant to press the 'i' as this seems to be the human thing to of occurred but no, since you are very clear that we should read what is written that is what I must do.

If you're going to get so shirty when people do not understand you then perhaps you should write more plainly, perhaps you might even write what you want to say if you think that implication might not be understood. It's not that difficult to write and communicate effectively,  I'm sure that a few people might be quite willing to give you lessons though I don't seem to have the time.

PolyGlide, if you are going to represent your messiah on this forum it might be an idea to develop a few of the characteristics that he might want you to exhibit here.

Heretic

Tosh wrote:What time is the next headcount?

Why? How many have you got?

Heretic

Most people/posters only do have the one head Heretic, the big shame about it, is that some posters have two faces on that head. That is why you do not know which way to take their comments.  

You could start the Janus Awards - Sort of a variation on "The Darwin Awards"

Heretic

Not the anus awards, when you catch the two faced ones out.  

Just existing with the universe is indeed a miracle!!?

  

The miracle I would add is the idea of life existing a long time by lucky shots and random processes. Unless....there is ...umm..a Creator?!

  

Jsmythe wrote:Just existing with the universe is indeed a miracle!!?

  

Probably not a miracle. It's simply that we haven't been noticed yet.

The days of miracles have long gone, just as the Bible says they would.

They were used at a time when Jesus attempted to prove who he was and why he was.

Since that time we have had numerous events that establish the truth and miracles should be no longer necessary.

However, God will and does answer sincere prayers, perhaps not exactly as we request but in our best interests.

The thing is PG, is you actually believe what you have written in your last post, and to myself that is the hardest thing of all to take in.
If god answers sincere prayers, then you add a get out clause do you not ahah, not exactly as we requested, but in our best interest.
so what you are saying is he does not answer our prayers at all as we wish them to be answered, but if something happens it will happen in gods interest.

You always forget Satan.

If you make an agreement and specify certain restrictions then you have to play the game.

In the case of God and Satan, game, is not a very good explanation as the consequences for mankind are too severe

God will answer anyone's prayer in the way he sees is in the best interests of the person and in accordance with the agreement with Satan. [the latter we do not know]

If mankind accepted God and behaved in the manner he advocated, the world would not be on the verge of suicide.

Don't let me stop you though PG,  

God has no agreement with Satan. Christianity has turned HaSatan, an angel/messenger created by God, who is allowed to tempt men to test them - as in Job - into an enemy of God.
God created good and evil, as we are told.
Eastern religions accept this - as does Judaism - they balance each other. One does not not exist without the other, and all shades in between bring the two into balance.
Western religions put these into opposition. God v Satan.

I am agnostic, but that's how it is in the Tanakh. God created HaSatan for Gods own purpose. And the Tanakh is the basis of Christianity. Without it Christianity would never have started.

didn't believe in miracles until I came round from life support machine after being given 11hours to live.
then yesterday my neighbour fixed my T,V so now I can watch the bbc channels and watch the world cup soccer matches.

stuart torr wrote:
yesterday my neighbour fixed my T,V so now I can watch the bbc channels and watch the world cup soccer matches.

Considering England's performance you could describe that as a diabolical act.

I shot him yesterday Norm   

God did not create evil.

God gave man free will and he created all the problems.

Satan said he could turn everyone against God and if he did then that would be the end of mankind.

Not the end of the universe or anything else just mankind.

I can give you numerous Bible references it is the easiest thing in the world to do, however, to understand the implications is another matter.

God gave man the rules that would lead to a good and peaceful life, the mess as of now, is man's fault and no one elses.

Don't you do anything but preach PG? why not become a priest and then you will have your very own church.

polyglide wrote:God did not create evil.

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:Then your religions claims that it's deity is omnipotent is entirely refuted

God gave man free will and he created all the problems.

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:Then the claim that your god is omniscient is dismantled, though of course human will is not completely free.

Satan said he could turn everyone against God and if he did then that would be the end of mankind.

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:Only if your deity allows it, that's not benevolence though, and of course you don't even pretend to evidence you bare claim.

Not the end of the universe or anything else just mankind.

I can give you numerous Bible references it is the easiest thing in the world to do, however, to understand the implications is another matter.

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:Quoting claims made in the Bible doesn't in any way validate those claims. Hitchen's razor applies here, again.

God gave man the rules that would lead to a good and peaceful life, the mess as of now, is man's fault and no one elses.

What mess? Humans generally live longer better lives now than they've ever done. Besides your god is one of thousands humans have created, and the rules vary from believer to believer, and they all arrogantly claim to know what god wants, as you do.