How are adults talked into believing in fantasy creatures, miracles and magic?

How are adults talked into believing in fantasy creatures, miracles and magic?

Please ignore that I do not believe in any invisible entity. I would like this thread to be about you.
I also have rejected the notion of anything being able to breach the limits of nature and physics.
No miracles allowed in my theology.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iV2VjdpVonY

If you do not follow your religion because of culture and tradition, when did you begin to be a believer?

Can you describe how you were made to believe in fantasy or imaginary creatures?

Were you an adult at that time or a child?

If a child, could this real phenomena be what caused you to believe?

http://academia.edu/503195/_Princess_Alice_is_watching_you_Childrens_belief_in_an_invisible_person_inhibits_cheating

Regards
DL

Your message may be in the wrong language, GIA. In Haiti, Voodoo among the French-speaking natives predominates, and since independence from Russia was achieved in Mongolia, Shaman beliefs have been revived.

oftenwrong wrote:Your message may be in the wrong language, GIA.  In Haiti, Voodoo among the French-speaking natives predominates, and since independence from Russia was achieved in Mongolia, Shaman beliefs have been revived.

Thanks.

Quote
'I also have rejected the notion of anything being able to breach the limits of nature and physics.
No miracles allowed in my theology.'

Then you rule out any progress in physics and in nature. Interesting. We apparently, according to you, have reached our limits. I don't rule out the possibility of advances in the future that will alter or extend the boundaries of what we believe at the moment.
I  believe in 'miracles' in the sense that we can bring people back to life in a short while after their death. A form of the 'kiss of life' is described in the OT. In the sense that people given a few days to live can defy the odds and live into old age.

Trevor,

I am interested in what " spooky unknowns " could possibly still exist in biology, we are the sum total of mindless evolutionary processes with a common DNA structure, where do we squeeze in the voodoo ?

There is some very interesting information linking us closer and closer to primates, but no ghosts, ESP or other con artist tripe.

Do dreams fit into your enquiry, Tosh?

Tosh wrote:Trevor,

I am interested in what " spooky unknowns " could possibly still exist in biology, we are the sum total of mindless evolutionary processes with a common DNA structure, where do we squeeze in the voodoo ?

There is some very interesting information linking us closer and closer to primates, but no ghosts, ESP or other con artist tripe.

I am not a biologist but if you cross 2 different plants (botany) you get a 'new' plant with new characteristics. We try for a particular outcome but are often surprised by what we actually get.
Currently we are playing with our genetic make-up. Who knows where we will end up? From what I read we intend injecting an human egg involving 2 males to eliminate defects. We have caused horror in the past with things like Thalidomide. Perhaps we will cause something even worse.
I'll see if my son can tell me what they are doing when I see him. He's just got his Masters degree in BioChem. at Oxford.

Tosh wrote:Trevor,

I am interested in what " spooky unknowns " could possibly still exist in biology, we are the sum total of mindless evolutionary processes with a common DNA structure, where do we squeeze in the voodoo ?

There is some very interesting information linking us closer and closer to primates, but no ghosts, ESP or other con artist tripe.

Isolated from the rest of the world for 15 million years, some of the DNA sequences were found to be unique to science and may belong to new species that have evolved in the depths.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/antarctica/10164193/Antarctic-Lake-Vostok-buried-under-two-miles-of-ice-found-to-teem-with-life.html

Good morning Trevor,

I was under the impression we were discussing the potential existence of " spooky unknowns ", like miracles. magic and fantasy creatures, phenomena the natural laws cannot explain ?

I fail to see how closing the door on voodoo closes the door on future biological variants, what you seem incapable of understanding is the principle of cause and effect evolution. Supernatural properties in living things must come from something and everything is natural, there is no coming back from being " dead ", every living thing dies in nature....everything. To suggest some natural cause is resurrecting life from death is ignoring cause and effect, where does it fit into all known biological equations ? You are in effect relying on the existence of an unseen agent with intentions and we are right back to the spirit world, good old fashioned Cartesian duality.
Some people die of the common cold and some survive cancer longer than normal, why is this unnatural or supernatural, are we looking for voodoo in the baby born with no resistance to anything !

Everything is physical and everything physical has physical restraints, we call them laws.

Some theories about evolution (not "Laws", Tosh) attempt to explain it not as development, but a process of elimination. Dead-end changes do not evolve, it is literally survival of the fittest.

oftenwrong,

I do not see dreaming as anything supernatural, dogs dream.

Neuroscience confirms no free will, consciousness only enables us to be aware of choices already made, dreaming is partial awareness trying to form concepts from ongoing influences within our sub conscious.

Some theories about evolution (not "Laws", Tosh) attempt to explain it not as development, but a process of elimination. Dead-end changes do not evolve, it is literally survival of the fittest.

Evolution is genetic variation and it operates within the natural laws and cause and effect, dead-end variations can mutate just like any other, not sure what if anything you are trying to say.

Evolution can be described as death of the unfittest or survival of the fittest, it doesn't change the plain fact it operates within natural laws.

I take some comfort from the chaos in Syria, Turkey and Egypt, finally moderate Muslims and minorities have had enough with Islamofascism, it also highlights the need for all democracies to have a constitution protecting universal human rights from the majority.

The catalyst for this " reformation " in my opinion is practical not spiritual, it is poverty that is driving change, Islam is anti-social and like all cults segregates itself from the rest of the marketplace, this is not a sensible strategy in a globalized economy.
I believe a clash of civilizations is no longer likely, the conflict will be within Islam itself, much like Communism it will implode and fragment because it simply does not provide the same benefits as secularism.

We may have not found the ideal method of redistributing wealth but at least we have found a reliable way of creating wealth, and it involves socialization.

Tosh.

Many years ago while in my youth I had a girlfriend for a while. I moved across country and we lost touch. I married a few years later to another.
After a while I had a dream that my previous girlfriend was trying to contact me. Thinking nothing of it I went into town a couple of days later and met a friend and her husband. She told me that she had had a dream of a girl writing to me. Given that NO-ONE knew about the girl, particularly the woman who had had the dream. I received a letter which had been written to my home 150 miles away and passed on. I had 2 other dreams which my friend confirmed each time.
There was NO way in which she could have known the details she described.

I have 'seen' specific things happen before they have happened. It's not a case of 'looking back' predictions. I have told people before the actual event.
Apart from one occasion - when I 'saw' an aircraft crash as I was returning to camp one night. That night, during night training, a cadet was lost when his plane crashed.

I don't claim any supernatural, 'god' given talent. I do know of others who have the same experiences. Maybe it's natural, maybe it's a 'gift'.
Certainly no-one has yet been able to explain it to me. Though I have had many different explanations, even from those whose expertise is in the field.

Trevor,

I played full time internet poker from 2005-2011, each year I played over a million hands, 100 to 1 bad beats happen a lot when you play this volume, and these were the ones I remembered, I didn't give a 2nd thought to the 99 times I won, they were insignificant, it was the bad beats that were significant.

How many dreams have you had in your lifetime, and how many have been significant ?

Do the math.

There was a study of psychics and mediums a few years back, the results did not surprise me, they all failed. What did surprise me was the number who were not frauds, they genuinely believed they had a gift. The results confused and upset them so much they put it down to environmental influences, the non-believing atmosphere had caused them to fail.

So here is a human mind capable of a breathless level of delusion, but it happens all the time, we have an inbuilt ego survival mechanism to protect our well being, in layman's terms it is called a " magic mirror ".

Humans seek purpose, the reasons for living are the meaning of life, once we adopt a purposeful concept that fills this void, then no evidence is going to change our mind....we need purpose.

If you break down God, its properties provide various concepts involving purpose and throughout history humans have rejected all notions that threaten their gods.

The literal-minded are presumably deprived of any pleasure from going to the theatre or watching a drama on film or TV.  Suspension of disbelief is often an essential ingredient of entertainment, and a fundamental requirement for religious conviction.

The literal-minded are presumably deprived of any pleasure from going to the theatre or watching a drama on film or TV. Suspension of disbelief is often an essential ingredient of entertainment, and a fundamental requirement for religious conviction.

Why should anyone be deprived of using their imagination for creative purposes ?

As long as they know they cannot just invent reality and expect others to buy it.

Tosh wrote:Trevor,

I played full time internet poker from 2005-2011, each year I played over a million hands, 100 to 1 bad beats happen a lot when you play this volume, and these were the ones I remembered, I didn't give a 2nd thought to the 99 times I won, they were insignificant, it was the bad beats that were significant.

How many dreams have you had in your lifetime, and how many have been significant ?

Do the math.

That is no answer at all with respect. For someone to come to me and tell me the subject of my dreams - 3 times - and have no idea of what has gone before or the person referred too.

There are many theories for 'dreaming' from Freuds 'wishes fulfilment' to Jungs 'wishes repressed' and many outside these as you will know better than I.
NONE, as far as I know, include accurately dreaming anothers dream, particularly without the prior knowledge of that persons life. That proposes mind reading. 

I don't believe this is supernatural but 'super-natural'. Something we have yet to understand. I assume you will say that nothing can be above the natural laws of nature - I believe you told me this once before - but I do not agree the impossibility


Dreams are a fact of 'nature'. Most are explainable when you study your own experiences, and relate them to your dreams.

I also saw the programme you mentioned and it was interesting. The fact that experiments are made like this are irrelevant and most are doomed to failure. I believe such experiences are not bought on by attempting anything, they occur without 'thinking', spontaneously.
They cannot be 'manufactured'. Some are susceptible to them, some not.

Nature is variable. Some insects detect the change in weather, some do not. Most mammals can detect danger (ie earthquakes), we cannot.

What I have said is from no religious point of view. If there is a creator he does not affect our lives day to day. We live our own lives to the best of our ability.

There is one thing in nature that is the same - hunger.

Catch you later.

Trev----Then you rule out any progress in physics and in nature. Interesting. [/quote]

GIA -----I do not state this.

-----------------------

Trev ----- We apparently, according to you, have reached our limits.

GIA ------I do not state this.

---------------------------

Trev ---- I don't rule out the possibility of advances in the future that will alter or extend the boundaries of what we believe at the moment.

GIA ----- Neither do I. We have much to learn. Like sticks cannot turn into snakes.

--------------------------

Trev --- I believe in 'miracles' in the sense that we can bring people back to life in a short while after their death. A form of the 'kiss of life' is described in the OT. In the sense that people given a few days to live can defy the odds and live into old age.

GIA --- So do I and know that that does not exceed the bounds of nature and is not a miracle at all.

Regards
DL

NONE, as far as I know, include accurately dreaming anothers dream, particularly without the prior knowledge of that persons life. That proposes mind reading.Laughing

It proposes coincidence, probability and blind chance.

Trevor, conveniently you yet again forget where we get our properties from, are you suggesting chimps have some psychic abilities ?

".... are you suggesting chimps have some psychic abilities ?"


Does any animal?  How would we know?  All sorts of species have a demonstrable ability to communicate within their  herd/flock/colony.  To humans, it's an inexplicable marvel to see birds flock at dusk with hundreds of them wheeling and changing course without colliding, apparently under the instruction of a supernatural Sergeant-Major.

oftenwrong wrote:".... are you suggesting chimps have some psychic abilities ?"


Does any animal?  How would we know?  All sorts of species have a demonstrable ability to communicate within their  herd/flock/colony.  To humans, it's an inexplicable marvel to see birds flock at dusk with hundreds of them wheeling and changing course without colliding, apparently under the instruction of a supernatural Sergeant-Major.

Seems that you have not read anything much on the newer theories and discoveries of motion dynamics in animals. What you seem to know or think has already scientifically been refuted.

We can know about people though if we are willing to believe in a phenomena that by it's nature has no proof except the testimony of those like me who say that telepathy is true as I have done it.

Are you ready to believe me without proof?

I would be very surprised.

Regards
DL

Are you ready to believe me without proof?

I would be very surprised.

Not just you, Soldier!

Tosh wrote:

NONE, as far as I know, include accurately dreaming anothers dream, particularly without the prior knowledge of that persons life. That proposes mind reading.Laughing

It proposes coincidence, probability and blind chance.

Trevor, conveniently you yet again forget where we get our properties from, are you suggesting chimps have some psychic abilities ?

3 different dreams 3 times in about 3 weeks. Some coincidence, some probability, some blind chance (apologies to Winnie).

You and I will never agree on this. I don't have the answer, except that I do not include Divine intervention. Neither do I accept we have all the answers that nature will offer us. Eminent people like Freud and Jung and many others cannot agree the reason for dreams.
Why do we dream? What is the purpose? You won't find a concensus of opinion on either. Indeed we do not know the exact function of, reason for, sleep. Science is still seeking the answers.
How can some people function with as little sleep as a 2-4 hours, while others need far longer.

As to chimps. Probably, they seem to be more intelligent than we are.  

I need at least 7 hours and it is 23.30 here, so I wish you a goodnight.

To actually reply to the questions.

My parents were both religious and belonged to the Apostolic Church.

I was brought up to fear God rather than appreciate him.

I was at times actually frightened of the consequences of doing anything wrong.

At a later stage I came to my own conclusions based on that which I experienced in life and all that was available to take into consideration.

Including, evolution and all that which the scientists thought.

On that basis I came to the firm conclusion that life cannot possibly have come about by chance and that there must be a creator. [the only alternative]

On seeking the alternative I considered all the religions I was aware of and any other alternative.

The only conclusion, although there are many things I do not understand regarding the earths past and all the past life the fact remains there must be a creator.

The Christian faith I feel answers most of the questions I ask myself
and it is this that I believe.

I do not believe in magic, I do believe in coinsidence, which can be the explanation for many things, dreams can be dated to Biblical times and were, for reasons unknown, applicable to mankind and some animals as far back as history.

There is far more in human nature, not known, that that which is known.

You can take a complex piece of machinery that involved numerous parts, each depending on one another, ask a lay person to explain the function of any part and he/she would be as lost as we are at the full potential and make up of the human.

"You can take a complex piece of machinery that involved numerous parts, each depending on one another, ask a lay person to explain the function of any part and he/she would be as lost as we are at the full potential and make up of the human."

As a "lay person" I must indeed confess to a large degree of ignorance concerning the human body, despite being the proud possessor of an example. Nevertheless I would not make such a bold declaration as (it) "cannot possibly have come about by chance."

Just look at the construction - no engineer has been anywhere near it. The envelope is fragile and easily damaged, whilst deterioration sets in after only a few years of use. Man-made objects can last much longer, and are not so susceptible to infection.

It's hardly surprising that no entity has yet stepped forward to acknowledge responsibility for its creation.

At a later stage I came to my own conclusions based on that which I experienced in life and all that was available to take into consideration. Including, evolution and all that which the scientists thought. On that basis I came to the firm conclusion that life cannot possibly have come about by chance and that there must be a creator. [the only alternative]

You ignore scientific conclusions built on evidence for your own conclusions based on your subjective experiences, care to highlight what evidence convinces you the universe and life could not possibly have come about by chance and there must be a creator ?

Poly

"On that basis I came to the firm conclusion that life cannot possibly have come about by chance and that there must be a creator. [the only alternative]"

Not surprising as your fear driven mind that was conditioned in that way as a child, could not admit to having baseless fears all of those years.

Yours is a classic case that many ex believers have admitted to. Try any Ex Christian site and see for yourself.

Just because you have un-answered question of our reality does not mean your have to stay in your fear induced one full of fantasy, miracles and magic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF6I5VSZVqc

Regards
DL

I do not believe in magic.

The explanation of a miracle depends on the circumstances.

Take a box of matches and show it to a person who has never known civilisation previously and they would think getting fire by that means was a miracle, when there was a perfectly reasonable explanation, just because we are not aware of how God works does not negate anything.

polyglide wrote:I do not believe in magic.

The explanation of a miracle depends on the circumstances.

Take a box of matches and show it to a person who has never known civilisation previously and they would think getting fire by that means was a miracle, when there was a perfectly reasonable explanation, just because we are not aware of how God works does not negate anything.

Thanks for showing how you believe in fantasy, miracles and magic.

Would you think a talking snakes to be scientifically possible since they have no vocal cords or a snake school.

Do you think science will ever be able to make snakes out of sticks?

Regards
DL

We are not talking about the capabilities of humans but of a source of which we cannot comprehend.

I can imagine God being able to effect anything, there are limits to what mankind can do subject to the availability of and the knowledge of that which is on earth.

God has the universe at his command and we no not even the slightest content of the potential therein.

polyglide wrote:We are not talking about the capabilities of humans but of a source of which we cannot comprehend.

I can imagine God being able to effect anything, there are limits to what mankind can do subject to the availability of and the knowledge of that which is on earth.

God has the universe at his command and we no not even the slightest content of the potential therein.

You say that God cannot be comprehended and then tell us what you comprehend of God.  

Even you have to recognize that hypocrisy.

Regards
DL

Yep, the loonies who KNOW god is unknowable.

There is a big difference in being aware of and knowing the potential of.

No one knows how God works, no one knows how many other entities there are that have similar capabilities.

As I have said on previous occasions, I am well aware of the existance of a creator, the alternative being chance, the latter being more laughable than the replies to some of my pertinant obsevations based on logic, which are beyond the understanding of some.

There are more questions demanding an answer than those we can determine a reasonable answer to.

This is where faith comes in, if we had all the answers there would be no need for faith.

polyglide wrote:There is a big difference in being aware of and knowing the potential of.

No one knows how God works, no one knows how many other entities there are that have similar capabilities.

As I have said on previous occasions, I am well aware of the existance of a creator, the alternative being chance, the latter being more laughable than the replies to some of my pertinant obsevations based on logic, which are beyond the understanding of some.

There are more questions  demanding an answer than those we can determine a reasonable answer to.

This is where faith comes in, if we had all the answers there would be no need for faith.

“Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding.”

“Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.”
Martin Luther “

Faith without facts is for fools and making your God the God of the Gaps is foolish.

Regards
DL

polyglide wrote:This is where faith comes in, if we had all the answers there would be no need for faith.

Faith in the religious sense is both ridiculous and dangerous.

It is ridiculous because "faith" is the act of replacing actual answers with absolutist wishful thinking. "Faith' is what hobbled the progress of humanity for almost a thousand years after the fall of Rome. Instead of seeking the answers we did not have, we instead contented ourselves with "faith' that God did it, and all the answers were in the Bible. Those that did seek real answers were arrested, tried as heretics, and often executed.

It is dangerous because tyranny often disguises itself as "faith." There has never been a civilization ruled by "faith" and religion that was not oppressive, tyrannical, totalitarian, and authoritarian. "Faith" is what has caused (and still causes) the oppression of women, the persecution of homosexuals, and the abuse of African children at the hands of evangelical preachers. "Faith" has furthered the spread of the HIV virus, caused literally thousands of terrorist attacks, stymied medical advances in stem cell research, stolen billions of dollars from duped and brainwashed paritioners whenever the collection plate makes its rounds, and has divided us for all the wrong reasons.

Faith is wishful thinking. Few people have faith in things they do not wish to be so. It's too bad that you fail to realize that much of your faith was spoonfed to you by those in power over you, be they your parents teaching you to fear God or preachers telling you how to worship or what values to have. Christianity itself is largely a product of patriarchal males trying to create a world pleasing to THEM. Unfortunately, billions of people have been hoodwinked into beileving that world is beneficial - yet authoritarian practices have only ever benefited those in authority.

When I have occasionally come across e.g. Buddhists, but also other cults such as the Hindu sannyasi, apparently relying upon the goodwill of their fellow man to fill their begging-bowl with sufficient for a meal. I have to wonder at such a degree of faith.

I have to wonder why they are so lazy that they will not work for a living lile those they beg from.

Fill my bowl so that I can continue to do nothing useful.

Regards
DL

P.S.

Well pyt Shirina.

As lazy as authors who can't be bothered to proof-read, would you say? Or more so?