Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

First topic message reminder :

Just to prove what a liar I am, always “making things up as I go along”, I’ll add three more sources to the discussion, but no doubt that won’t convince the pig-headed amongst us:-
 
“The Beveridge Report proposed an allowance of eight shillings per week for all children (apart from for a family's first child if one parent was working), which graduated according to age. It was to be non-contributory and funded by general taxation. After some debate, the Family Allowances Bill was enacted in June 1945. The act provided for a flat rate payment funded directly from taxation. The recommended nine shillings a week was reduced to five shillings, and family allowance became a subsidy, rather than a subsistence payment as Beveridge had envisaged.”
 
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/cabinetpapers/themes/beveridge-report-child-benefit.htm
 
“Known as the Family Allowance, the 5 shillings a week payment was given to parents only for their second AND subsequent children, thus helping shore up the depleted population by encouraging more births. It continued through the post-war boom but was restructured when the economy turned down again, being reinvented as Child Benefit in the second half of the 1970s. The new payments were tax free and first-time mothers also became eligible.”
 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/8041636/Child-Benefit-history.html
 
“In the UK, child benefit is administered by Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs (HMRC). The system was first implemented in August 1946 as ‘family allowances’ under the Family Allowances Act 1945, at a rate of 5s (= £0.25) per week per child in a family, except for the eldest. This was raised from September 1952, by the Family Allowances and National Insurance Act 1952, to 8s (= £0.40), and from October 1956, by the Family Allowances Act and National Insurance Act 1956, to 8s for the second child with 10s (= £0.50) for the third and subsequent children.

It was modified in 1977, with the payments being termed ‘child benefit’ and given for the eldest child as well as the younger ones; by 1979 it was worth £4 per child per week. In 1991, the system was further altered, with a higher payment now given for the first child than for their younger siblings.”
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_benefit

boatlady wrote:Well that wasn't bad.
Thanks, all, for the good wishes.

A surprising number of people were happy, even eager, to let me know their views.

Any chance you could share there views with us on the forum boatlady ??

oftenwrong wrote:".... that would put the voters right off voting Labour"

Undoubtedly true, Redflag.  Many voters already use the phrase, "Politicians are all the same!"

It will not help Labour's cause for "the two Eds" to get down on the floor with the slimy Coalition, exchanging Yah-boo insults.

I think that is part of the reason why Ed Miliband will not trade tit for tat with the nasty Tories, but it will help the Labour party in the long run because as you have said it will P**S the voters right off so thr Tories will SHIT in there own nest all thanks to Lyton Crosby.  

Mostly people seem to be worried about the rising unemployment and the lack of any reasonably paid jobs for youngsters - and of course, they are also worried about street lighting and parking.

Worryingly enough, many people seem to think UKIP have the answers

The novelty of UKIP as an alternative hasn't worn off yet.

Ed Miliband’s reforms of Labour Party financing are good for two reasons. Firstly, it will now be easier to turn the spotlight on the Tories and all their shady donations and demand that they clean up their rancid party. Secondly, the reforms were approved by Len McCluskey, Tony Blair and David Owen, suggesting there is room for those who share the views of all three of those men inside Ed Miliband’s centre-left ‘big tent’.
 
David Owen was one of ‘The Gang of Four’ who broke away from Labour in 1981 to form the SDP. That gave Thatcher an easy ride throughout the 1980s, and some in the Labour Party will never forgive them for that. So what are we to make of Owen’s support for Ed Miliband and his recent donation to Labour? Is it bad news if Labour is appealing to ‘pink Tories’ like Owen, or is it a sign that the party has a widening appeal that will enhance its chances of victory in May 2015?
 
Owen hasn’t yet rejoined the Labour Party, but he is giving it money to help it rescue the NHS. He said: “I and many others are hoping to see the party produce a plan for government from May next year to rescue our NHS. Saving the NHS is my main political priority, and I suspect that of many others. To help Labour reverse the 2012 NHS legislation without yet another major reorganisation, I have made a declarable contribution of over £7,500 to Labour funds. Unless there is a change of government, the NHS in England will be completely destroyed by 2020.” Whatever Owen has done in the past, I can’t disagree with that last sentence.
 
George Eaton writes: “One of the quiet successes of Ed Miliband’s leadership has been maintaining the support of all wings of the party, while also attracting support from former Lib Dems and other progressives. Many predicted that the unions would break with the party and run their own candidates. Others warned that Miliband's repudiation of New Labour would lead to Blairite resignations. But both fears proved mistaken. The maintenance of party unity is one of the key reasons why he is in a strong position to win the general election next year.”
 
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/03/david-owen-joins-milibands-big-tent-donation-labour-more-%C2%A37500

IVAN if you think that anything that Ed Miliband does in regards to the Labour party funding will change the way that the Tories are funded I am sorry to say a Leopard never changes its spots.

I agree with David Owen has said about OUR NHS if the people of the UK let the Tories pull the wool over there eyes in May 2015, we will not have a NHS after 2016/17 because the Tories will have handed it to there donors in the private health sector.

Unlike others I believe that Ed Miliband will be a great PM for all of the UK not just for the chosen few, I think we will see a different type of politics and a more HONEST POLITICS which the UK is in dire need of.  

The thing about Ed Miliband is that he will take the Labour Party in the direction he feels is best for the party, the country and the future, and I believe he will disregard all the voices coming from all directions.

Some people, and some groups seem to feel its a simplistic matter of left versus right, with the Tories constantly accusing the party of pandering to unions, and internal critics screaming that the party should steer away from the Social Democratic middle ground.

My own personal opinion is "socialism is dead, god save the centre left", because lets face facts here, as much as some traditional Labour supporters dont like the shift to the centre, it was Tony Blair who became the first Labour PM to win three successive elections; The other very valid point to make, and its an important point is that Labour cannot win the 2015 election without attracting middle class voters.

I think that what is happening is that Ed Miliband is doing his own thing, its not a swing this way or that way, he is adapting and moulding the Labour Party to suit todays and tomorrows needs, not yesterdays.

There is absolutely no reason as to why certain policies and ideas cannot be what some would call "left wing", if such policies make sound sense and are popular, then it dosent matter if they are thought of as radical, left wing or right wing.
To me, the fundamental bottom line is, and always should be, a party that champions capitalism, enterprise and social justice, its about a successful society aswell as a successful economy.

Well said Witchfinder you have made several valid points in regards which way Ed Miliband is taking the Labour party, so I hope Ed reads your post along with those desenters within the Labour party.

After the big six hiked up the cost of gas & electric 68% of the UK public wanted Ed to re-nationalize both of these utilities, as we all know by the time this Tory gov't is done there will be no money left to buy them back, all I will say to Ed there is more than one way to SKIN A CAT  

Some radical ideas are not looney or as some newspapers would claim "leftie" or "red", certain radical ideas would be popular, like taking rail companies back into state ownership, or reigning in the energy companies.

Passenger services on the main east coast rail line from London to Edingburgh have been run by "Directly Operated Railways" for three and a half years, the not-for-private-profit company has delivered a service equally as good as any of the other operaters, and has returned over £600 million to the treasurey, yet the Tories insist it must be handed back to a private company.   

Some things just dont make sense, and it all goes to show that much of what the Tories do is based on nothing more than political ideology and dogma.

An opinion poll last year showed that only 1 in 5 passengers were in favour of reprivatizing the services on the east coast main line.

Generally speaking, we don't take kindly to people who say something along the lines of, "God help me! I'm surrounded by idiots!" within our own hearing. It's uncomfortably inclusive.

The Labour Party (Any Labour Party), striving to improve the lot of the Common Man, must occasionally feel despair at the sight of the very people they are trying to help, voting Tory against their own interests - because of a natural aspiration to imitate the toffs.

I could not agree more with you OW, it shocked me to find out that normal Labour voters had voted for the Tories in May 2010, after what the 18 years of the Thatcher gov't did to the UK you would of thought it would have been enough to put them off for life voting Tory.   I just hope this shower of SCUMBAGS has put the people of the UK off for eternity voting Tory or Fib-Dem, as WF has said there are driven by nothing else than IDEOLOGY & Tory DOGMA they do not care about any body else but those that can pour money into Tory party funds.

In May 2015 there will have to be no voting apathy no matter what people wil have to get out there and use there vote to get these shower of LOW LIFE out of gov't and into there nearest JOB CENTRE PLUS   

Gideon Osborne is not stupid

There's more than one sort - really stupid means not understanding that we are all interdependent and if you destroy one part of the body politic other parts will inevitably suffer - I would suggest he is that kind of stupid

.... but charged with survival of the Tory Party.

oftenwrong wrote:.... but charged with survival of the Tory Party.

 
I doubt if even God Almighty could help the Tory party to survive, after what they have done to the good people of the UK I would think it will take an ETERNITY for people to ever vote Tory again, except for those with money in off shore accounts and the Landed Gentry  

Red flag said: " I doubt if even God Almighty could help the Tory party to survive"

Your quite right, why should God (if there is such a thing) bother himself, when a inactive Labour Party is giving the Tory Bastards all the help they need.

Several years ago, BBC2 Producers came up with the ideal name for a new comedy programme, "Not The 9 O'clock News", indicating choice, discernment and an all-round lighter attitude.

Maybe the Miliband Labour Party might do worse than change its name to "Not the Tory Party"?

ow said: Maybe the Miliband Labour Party might do worse than change its name to "Not the Tory Party"?

The problem as I see it is that Labour as is are waiting for Herr Cameron and co to lose the election, giving no need for Ed Miliband to have to win it. That in my opinion is wholly the wrong way to go about things. Nothing I have was given to me on a plate, I had to work bloody hard and for all the hours I could put in to arrive in the very comfortable position I am now in ( I have inherited some, bt that came after I had secured my own future)
Ed Miliband should be seen and heard to be doing something or else people might thing he doesn't want to inherit the mess that will be left by the previous Coalition Government.
He could start with a simple poster campaign, once the hoarding is paid for no number of Tory news papers can tear the posters down and they will be seen by millions, but what do we see/hear, 4 things, Zero, nought, F all, Nothing. IMHO it just isn't good enough for an opposition who expect or4 want to get into power in 2015.
I hope he will make a better Prime Minister (if he gets in) than he is an opposition leader, because as things stand in my view he is failing miserably.

I do agree with you bobby, Ed Miliband has got to do more than wait for Davy boy to lose the election he and the Labour party have got to get out there and really start talking to all the voters, its that bad at the moment if Scots get a WHIFF that England will vote the Tories back into power in 2015 they will cut off their nose to spite their face and vote Yes on the 18th September, even the ones that have made up their minds to vote NO. 

Redflag wrote:-
.....he and the Labour party have got to get out there and really start talking to all the voters

Please take a look at this:-
 
http://www.google.co.uk/images?rlz=1T4GGLL_en-GBGB326GB326&q=LABOUR+DOORSTEP&hl=en&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ei=JuQyU8fJIa3Y0QWAgYH4Dw&ved=0CEoQsAQ

There's a picture of Cameron there - is he doorknocking for Labour too?

Seriously, though - we're all out there doing it - even me, and I'm usually shattered and I don't really do the standing about in the cold thing too well

Miliband Sniffs Electoral Success

(channel4)

" I only have to finish in the top four and we're in the Champions League...!"              

boatlady wrote:There's a picture of Cameron there - is he doorknocking for Labour too?

Seriously, though - we're all out there doing it - even me, and I'm usually shattered and I don't really do the standing about in the cold thing too well

Well done boatlady how did you get on ? did you enjoy it I know I did when I went down to Eastleigh last February, maybe that is what I need to get in there and help you lot in England as I am not needed here in Scotland because Scots do not vote Tory at all.

The Labour Party needs, if only it could, to position itself somewhere it cannot keep being the victim of public perception of its record in the years around 2008/10.

At every turn Cameron is able to taunt Miliband at PMQs in a manner which resonates with what many of the public still believe about the huge British deficit.

Until such time as Labour can throw off such charges and Miliband can summon up some coherent policies which are sufficiently convincing to persuade Joe Public, there is every chance that Cameron will waltz back into Number 10 on a promise to finally solve all that the last Labour Government allegedly so recklessly did....

Hi Red
I had a lovely time doorknocking, although it was very cold. We got a positive response from a lot of people who seem to understand that a Labour government may not be their  ideal, but will be much better than the alternatives. We had our prospective parliamentary candidate with us, and she was able to make a very good impression - she's a young mum who has seen hard times and can really talk to everyone.
Mostly, it has to be said, I'd rather do my canvassing indoors from a phone, but I'm glad I went out and will definitely be out again in the next few weeks, getting ready for the local elections.

I think, as we aren't getting the positive media coverage, getting out and talking to people one-to-one is the only way to get the message across. If you want to canvass in GY I'm sure Lara will be thrilled to hear from you.

".... all that the last Labour Government allegedly so recklessly did...." Those Socialist Bankers didn't help, either.

It matters not what we know or believe while the likes of the Daily Mail, The Sun and a slippery liar like Cameron are able to convince the populace that our current little local difficulties are all the fault of a financially illiterate Labour Government of Gordon Brown - aided by Miliband and Balls...

Nobody watching him losing his rag every time at PMQ's would describe David Cameron as complacent of a Tory victory.

I can’t see any possibility of an outright Tory victory next year, unless ‘The Daily Mail’ has been primed by Lynton Crosby to write an equivalent of the ‘Zinoviev letter’ – and if enough people are prepared to believe it.
 
A few thoughts:-
 
- Labour managed only 29% in the last general election. Every opinion poll since the Lib Dems joined the Tories in government has had Labour much higher then that. So Labour is likely to increase its 258 seats in May 2015.
 
- Labour consistently polls in the region of 37-39%. That’s partly because around one-third of those who voted Lib Dem in 2010 defected to Labour very soon afterwards, and they’ve never shown any sign of returning.
 
- When Tony Blair led Labour to a third successive victory in 2005, he did so with only 35.2% of the vote.
 
- The only real movement in the opinion polls comes from the to and fro between the Tories and UKIP.
 
- According to Anthony Wells of YouGov and UK Polling Report, opinion poll leads are likely to be much smaller nowadays because we are effectively in a four-party system.
 
- The Tories only won 307 seats in 2010 (326 is required for an overall majority), and 53 of the current Tory MPs have majorities of under 3,000. It will take only a relatively small swing to Labour to blow them away.

Lets all keep on talking one-to-one to those who are undecided about how they will vote next time

boatlady wrote:Lets all keep on talking one-to-one to those who are undecided about how they will vote next time

I agree boatlady, but we also need to be telling people the truth about the Tory LIES, plus to let them know that the Tories are not getting rid of the deficit but are adding to it through handing lucrative contracts to friends and donors of the Tory party.

bobby wrote:-
He could start with a simple poster campaign

Is this the sort of thing you had in mind?   
 

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BjuYHMKIcAAsa6-.jpg

bobby wrote:Absolutely Ivan, that and others like it, also posters showing the Tory led Coalition lies.
Is the poster on show anywhere?

Bobby I hope the Labour party print the posters with all the Tory & Fib-Dem LIES, I myself I would love to make the Tories eat each and every LIE they have told since May 2010 then they would be plenty of Eric Pickles within the Tory party after all the eating they will have to do   

Labour are putting a lot of good stuff out on social media - which I guess is the best bet, given that they aren't getting the coverage in mainstream media.
It'll also help to inform younger voters.

I heard the other day about a young chap (maybe in his 20's) who thought Margaret Thatcher was a socialist   - clearly some form of political education is called for when the yoof have such a poor grasp of recent history

Its the polls that worry me I just wonder why people do not trust Ed Miliband he is the only political leader that is telling the people the truth about what Davy boy is really up too, for all that Diddy Giddy has told them there will be another £25bn of cuts if they get power in 2015.   Where are peoples brains and I do not mean the normal Tory voters I mean the ones that are letting Davy boy pull the wool over there eyes again just like they did in May 2010.  

The Any Questions prog tonight will include a claim that UKIP is attracting working-class voters in serious numbers. How much time will Jonathan Dimbleby allocate to that?

Strangely, I think UKIP IS attracting a lot of working class voters - sad thing is, if you're working class work is increasingly harder to get - and UKIP's brand of cheap politics is very attractive to people with no hope - look at Hitler

Do people really think that Ukip is the answer to there problems, are they wearing ear plugs and not listening to the Ukip policies from what I have heard in the policy line you could not get a fag paper between the Tory & Ukip policies. Which is hardly surprising when Farage is nothing more than a Disgruntled Tory, who could not rise through the ranks to become leader decided to start his own party and after working in the City of London as a banker I would think he made enough money to get his political career started in the EU. I just wonder why he decided on the EU and not Westminister to start his political career.

Many voters are listening to the message - policies are secondary - and Farage's message is that he knows what is wrong (the EU) and he knows what will put it right (throw out all the foreigners and get out of the EU)
That kind of simplistic reasoning is very attractive when you're faced with the kind of spin and double speak practiced by most politicians. It's also attractive both to the middle class, who have something to lose, and to unskilled working class people, who are increasingly desperate.
I'm not surprised people are tending to overlook the lack of coherent UKIP policies - Hitler didn't have coherent policies either - - if you feel you're drowning, you don't want a plan for the next ten years - you want a quick fix for now

The #simple message' from UKIP - and to some extent from the Tories - is effective for the reasons stated. It appeals to the basic instincts of the desperate.

If only Miliband and Co. could come up with a similarly effective and compelling message. They can be as caring and well-intentioned as they like but, unless anyone believes them, they will have no chance of power

Ed Miliband has came out with a few messages freezing energy prices getting rid of the Bedroom tax and repealing the 2012 NHS bill, after the Scottish referendum that is when the Labour party will start to lay out  its program for the general election in 2015.