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Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

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Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Ivanhoe on Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:09 pm

The right of the Tory party have an elitist aristocratic arrogance that I'm sure many in Britain's middle classes feel.

The working man and woman in this country means nothing to them.

Nothing the Tory's do has anything to do with expense, because we are a very wealthy country, look at overseas expenditure.

The Tory's are at the very top of our class system, the middle classes want to be there, and our lower classes havent got a chance.

The Tory's want to keep the status quo, and they will throw everything at you to keep the status quo, because they dont wont the average Brit to become one of them.

This pensions crisis is based on class and privilige, it is not about expense.

The Tory's will always be successful at driving wedges between the old and the young, between the public and the private, because Britain's working class consolidation has gone

I believe our class system is at the root of Britain's ills.

What say you ?
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:36 pm

The backbone of Tory support is aspirational working-class voters.
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Ivanhoe on Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:07 am

oftenwrong wrote:The backbone of Tory support is aspirational working-class voters.
Yes you are right.

So, when this backbone of working class Tory supporters vote, they are voting for a lack of investment in all our vital services, including education and the NHS, plus eradication of the State pension, and the welfare state.?????????, plus the continuation of coucil house sell offs, without building anymore, plus the privatisation of our Utilities and excessive charges for shareholder profits and bosses salaries, plus a low waged, short term, insecure workforce., ?????????

What are they, completely bonkers ?

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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Ivan on Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:29 am

What are they, completely bonkers?
No. Politically naive, gullible and brainwashed by the right-wing media.

Most people don't pay as much attention to politics as some of us on here, and they tend to be influenced by the drip-drip-drip of insidious propaganda in papers such as 'The Daily Mail'. Despite their past track record of broken promises -such as "we will cut taxes year on year" (1992), which was followed by the biggest ever hike in taxes during peacetime - 36% of those who voted last year believed all Cameron's lies about protecting the NHS and Sure Start centres etc.

Cameron made class an issue again when he surrounded himself with Old Etonians and Bullingdon Club chums. He clearly hates and despises public sector workers, trade union members, people in council houses, and, judging by the work fitness test he has allowed IDS to implement, even disabled people.

You have to admit that the Tory Party is quite brilliant at getting so many people to vote for policies which are only in the interest of about 1% of the population. As George W. Bush once said: "You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on".
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Ivanhoe on Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:46 am

Ivan wrote:
What are they, completely bonkers?
No. Politically naive, gullible and brainwashed by the right-wing media.

Most people don't pay as much attention to politics as some of us on here, and they tend to be influenced by the drip-drip-drip of insidious propaganda in papers such as 'The Daily Mail'. Despite their past track record of broken promises -such as "we will cut taxes year on year" (1992), which was followed by the biggest ever hike in taxes during peacetime - 36% of those who voted last year believed all Cameron's lies about protecting the NHS and Sure Start centres etc.

Cameron made class an issue again when he surrounded himself with Old Etonians and Bullingdon Club chums. He clearly hates and despises public sector workers, trade union members, people in council houses, and, judging by the work fitness test he has allowed IDS to implement, even disabled people.

You have to admit that the Tory Party is quite brilliant at getting so many people to vote for policies which are only in the interest of about 1% of the population. As George W. Bush once said: "You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on".

Brilliant, I could not have put it better, myself. I hope these working class Torys are now enjoying the fruits of their efforts, regading this coalitions right wing policies taking us back to victoriansm.
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:32 am

It's inherent in human nature for parents to wish for their offspring to have a "better life". People work all hours to provide their children with an education, but all too often that education provides a realisation that selfishness and greed can be quite effective. There have been many well-documented instances of children being ashamed of their parentage, so perhaps it's not always a good idea to sacrifice yourself for the sake of the kids.
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Ivanhoe on Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:47 pm

oftenwrong wrote:It's inherent in human nature for parents to wish for their offspring to have a "better life". People work all hours to provide their children with an education, but all too often that education provides a realisation that selfishness and greed can be quite effective. There have been many well-documented instances of children being ashamed of their parentage, so perhaps it's not always a good idea to sacrifice yourself for the sake of the kids.

/////so perhaps it's not always a good idea to sacrifice yourself for the sake of the kids////

Elaborate please ?
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Ivan on Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:51 pm

What cements the class system in place is a hereditary monarchy. So many people give unearned respect to a family which holds its position purely by accident of birth. A hereditary monarchy is an affront to both democracy and the principle of a meritocracy. We’ve never been allowed to vote for, and by implication replace, our head or state, and it's a role which, however brilliant, charismatic or popular someone may be, they can never achieve.

Once the principle that one family is “born to reign” is widely accepted, it’s a short step to the arrogance of the likes of Cameron and Osborne believing that they are “born to rule”. I’ve seen little evidence that either of those gentleman are in any way intelligent, and Cameron’s stupidity at the Brussels summit reinforced that view. When you’re in negotiations, you don’t get up and leave the room unless others come after you, but they didn’t, they just slammed the door behind him.

Even Boris Johnson hasn’t been running London for the last three and a half years, he farmed that job out to Simon Milton, one of the criminal Shirley Porter’s cohorts. It makes you wonder how all these Bullingdon Club pillocks got their degrees. (Maybe ‘Skullion’s Scholars’ in Tom Sharpe’s “Porterhouse Blue” provides the clue.) However, until the general populace wake up and realise that being born with a silver spoon in your gob is far less important than what you can achieve on merit, and that it’s not how you speak but what you say that counts, we will continue to be lumbered with anachronisms such as Cameron and his cronies from time to time.
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Ivanhoe on Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:04 pm

Ivan wrote:What cements the class system in place is a hereditary monarchy. So many people give unearned respect to a family which holds its position purely by accident of birth. A hereditary monarchy is an affront to both democracy and the principle of a meritocracy. We’ve never been allowed to vote for, and by implication replace, our head or state, and it's a role which, however brilliant, charismatic or popular someone may be, they can never achieve.

Once the principle that one family is “born to reign” is widely accepted, it’s a short step to the arrogance of the likes of Cameron and Osborne believing that they are “born to rule”. I’ve seen little evidence that either of those gentleman are in any way intelligent, and Cameron’s stupidity at the Brussels summit reinforced that view. When you’re in negotiations, you don’t get up and leave the room unless others come after you, but they didn’t, they just slammed the door behind him.

Even Boris Johnson hasn’t been running London for the last three and a half years, he farmed that job out to Simon Milton, one of the criminal Shirley Porter’s cohorts. It makes you wonder how all these Bullingdon Club pillocks got their degrees. (Maybe ‘Skullion’s Scholars’ in Tom Sharpe’s “Porterhouse Blue” provides the clue.) However, until the general populace wake up and realise that being born with a silver spoon in your gob is far less important than what you can achieve on merit, and that it’s not how you speak but what you say that counts, we will continue to be lumbered with anachronisms such as Cameron and his cronies from time to time.

"from time to time"????......... Try for 30 years, since Thatcher. Still superbly observed.
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Penderyn on Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:39 pm

The key problem is that Thatcher conned so many people into 'owning their own homes' (i.e. having mortgages) which makes them afraid to strike. It is in strikes that working people learn class feeling and come to understand how the sytem works. Otherwise they are just atomised mugs who believe the Noise Machine.


Last edited by Penderyn on Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by blueturando on Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:42 pm

The Tory's are at the very top of our class system, the middle classes want to be there, and our lower classes havent got a chance.

Ivanhoe and Ivan (A match made in heaven) Please can you expalin to me your definitions of Middle Class and lower class as I am not sure what either of you are talking about?

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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by kentdougal on Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:19 pm

I know we can have that lying, cheating, war criminal Blair with his ill gotten millions as King and gate mouth shrew of a wife as queen.
It's just wonderful reading these envy driven whining lefties only interested in where their next hand out is coming from.
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:10 pm

Place these attributes in order of priority: (a) ENVY (b) smug satisfaction.
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by sickchip on Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:51 pm

Britain's wage system is at the root of all our problems.
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Penderyn on Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:03 pm

kentdougal wrote:I know we can have that lying, cheating, war criminal Blair with his ill gotten millions as King and gate mouth shrew of a wife as queen.
It's just wonderful reading these envy driven whining lefties only interested in where their next hand out is coming from.

What is a 'lefty' and why should anyone envy thieving turds?
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:06 pm

Why is the concept of "Keeping up with the Jones's" such an enduring factor in human behaviour?
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Changing Britain on Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:58 am

kentdougal wrote:I know we can have that lying, cheating, war criminal Blair with his ill gotten millions as King and gate mouth shrew of a wife as queen.
It's just wonderful reading these envy driven whining lefties only interested in where their next hand out is coming from.

kentdougal. Why the vitriol? If you work (and I'm sure you do), would you like someone to refer to your mistress (or wife) in such a way? What about if I referred to your wife as a twin of the boil on my bottom? What if I actually 'knew' your partner before you and made it all public via Cutting Edge? Would it help make my point? We really do need a more mature approach.

In other words, grow up.
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by True Blue on Sun Dec 18, 2011 3:01 am

Where it is that there are people of differing abilities, some of which are in higher demand than others, some of which are deemed more prestigious than others, there you will find a society stratified between best and least.

Usually it causes no problems. Rather it solves a great many. Every so often however, society will to break out of its stratification motivated by something more than the merely of what they have.

Civil discontent can fight for freedom, where they have too little, or, as is the case I believe with the UK, restrictions, where they have too much freedom.

The UK is suffering from moral decay... every thing from basic manners to personal accountability have been left to wallow in a not so distant past. There is an under swell within society however that is crying out for a return to restrictions on behaviour... a return to morality.

Such are the ebbs and flows of civilization... not unlike the booms and busts of economies.
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Ivanhoe on Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:07 am

True Blue wrote:Where it is that there are people of differing abilities, some of which are in higher demand than others, some of which are deemed more prestigious than others, there you will find a society stratified between best and least.

Usually it causes no problems. Rather it solves a great many. Every so often however, society will to break out of its stratification motivated by something more than the merely of what they have.

Civil discontent can fight for freedom, where they have too little, or, as is the case I believe with the UK, restrictions, where they have too much freedom.

The UK is suffering from moral decay... every thing from basic manners to personal accountability have been left to wallow in a not so distant past. There is an under swell within society however that is crying out for a return to restrictions on behaviour... a return to morality.

Such are the ebbs and flows of civilization... not unlike the booms and busts of economies.

None of which applies in European countries where the eduation systems have been well funded for decades. Our moral decay started under Thatcher, and continued under Blair and Brown.

Parents in Britain have also lost control of their kids, to raise them properly, because the British are mortage slaves, unlike the European's who are not.
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Ivan on Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:27 am

True Blue wrote:-
Where it is that there are people of differing abilities, some of which are in higher demand than others, some of which are deemed more prestigious than others, there you will find a society stratified between best and least.
The class system has little to do with ability and much to do with inherited wealth. Most members of the upper class are descendants of the thieves who secured acts of parliament in the 18th century to throw people off their land, or people who made money from transporting slaves from Africa to America, and others who received peerages from George III in between his bouts of insanity. In Cameron’s case, his wealth has been accrued because he’s descended from the illegitimate line of William IV, making him the Queen’s fifth cousin, twice removed. I doubt whether anyone would see him as a person of great ability, in fact just the opposite; for example, twice in PMQTs he’s referred to prostate cancer as "prostrate" cancer.

As people in the UK are indoctrinated to admire and respect members of the royal family regardless of their abilities (and it would be difficult to find a more useless dullard than Charles), it’s just a short step to legitimising the class system and accepting that people like Cameron and his privileged friends are somehow entitled to the top jobs in the country.


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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by oftenwrong on Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:05 pm

We, all of us, have a vested interest in preserving the class system in some form or other. Whether we admit it or not, everyone likes to "know where they stand".

Look at the way we behave upon being introduced to someone new. The first ten minutes of dialogue is entirely devoted to probes designed to reveal who is to bend the knee to whom. "What do you do? Oh, how interesting, and What school do you send the kids to? Do you live around here? Oh, on the estate. Did you buy?

The first rule of human relationship is to pigeonhole.
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Ivanhoe on Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:06 pm

oftenwrong wrote:We, all of us, have a vested interest in preserving the class system in some form or other. Whether we admit it or not, everyone likes to "know where they stand".

Look at the way we behave upon being introduced to someone new. The first ten minutes of dialogue is entirely devoted to probes designed to reveal who is to bend the knee to whom. "What do you do? Oh, how interesting, and What school do you send the kids to? Do you live around here? Oh, on the estate. Did you buy?

The first rule of human relationship is to pigeonhole.

The class system in Britain has made us an introverted nation, and not an outgoing nation. And I totally agree with what you have wrtitten.

The class system is alive and well in Britain and in America.

We are obsessed in keeping up with everybody else re- material gain, and we wonder why our kids are off the rails ???????
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by astra on Sun Dec 18, 2011 2:06 pm

OK, Ivanhoe, there IS a conveyer belt of snooty nosed assesment/approval that seems to over-ride many considerations that are taken by families and government. BUT! The only person who can put you on said conveyer belt is yourself (NOT literally you're good self iffin yer see wot I mean Smile )

These statements by gubmint - WE (UK) have to be leading the world in Green technology, WE (UK) have to help the poor in Africa, WE (UK) have to be at the heart of Europe, they are jerking themselves off on some orgasmic orgy of seemingly endless POWER!
I DIGRESS

higher the "class" the more supposed power held by that person(?) but it is distinctive that these socalled "powerful" creatures NEVER throw their OWN money around.



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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Penderyn on Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:36 pm

True Blue wrote:

The UK is suffering from moral decay... every thing from basic manners to personal accountability have been left to wallow in a not so distant past. There is an under swell within society however that is crying out for a return to restrictions on behaviour... a return to morality.

Such are the ebbs and flows of civilization... not unlike the booms and busts of economies.
Well, if you allow the City Party to grab the trough, why should you be surprised if everyone starts behaving like pigs? Like master like man - or pig.
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Ivanhoe on Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:02 pm

Brilliant. The banks were deregulated by Thatcher in the 80's, he same applied under Blair and Brown.

The British have largely all got their own noses in the troph one way or another, particulaly the housing market where house prices have shot up to the deteriment of the less well off since the 80's.
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:28 pm

Most people have heard about Germany's galloping inflation during the Weimar Republic when the price of a loaf reached a million Marks.

Logic tells you that a loaf of bread cannot be worth a million of anything, and logic also suggests that a house that was "worth" £3,000 in 1971 cannot now be "worth" FIFTY times that amount now.

Perhaps the Law should move the decimal place two points to the left.
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Ivanhoe on Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:47 pm

In simple terms. Working class Tories are the scum of Britain.
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by blueturando on Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:21 pm

In simple terms. Working class Labourites are the scum of Britain..

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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Ivan on Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:24 pm

"Oh no they aren't"
("Oh yes they are")
No need to pay to go to a pantomine this year!
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by tlttf on Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:41 pm

Ivanhoe, a product of pure envy, why should a working man voting Tory be classed as scum, similar to Blue I grew up on a council estate in Leeds and went to a secondary modern (pre-comprehensive). Started work at 15 as an apprentice engineer subsidised by my parents (both solid labour supporters). Joined the army, took numerous management courses and seminars (all in my own time), ran garages on behalf of large franchises, taught NVQ's at level 4 to those in need. Had my own garage and now work in Central London.
Being called scum for supporting a government that wants people to get off their arses would/could be offensive if stated by somebody that holds just a smidgeon of my respect, fortunately you don't fall into that bracket. Is tomorrow your last signing on day before Christmas?

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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Penderyn on Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:47 pm

tlttf wrote:Ivanhoe, a product of pure envy, why should a working man voting Tory be classed as scum, similar to Blue I grew up on a council estate in Leeds and went to a secondary modern (pre-comprehensive). Started work at 15 as an apprentice engineer subsidised by my parents (both solid labour supporters). Joined the army, took numerous management courses and seminars (all in my own time), ran garages on behalf of large franchises, taught NVQ's at level 4 to those in need. Had my own garage and now work in Central London.
Being called scum for supporting a government that wants people to get off their arses would/could be offensive if stated by somebody that holds just a smidgeon of my respect, fortunately you don't fall into that bracket. Is tomorrow your last signing on day before Christmas?

Quite a lot of people, you know, would sooner be jealous of a sow than of someone who makes money out of others. Most people will willingly work for others so long as they aren't slaving for a gang of lying, thieving gets such as run the tory party, and are contemptuous of forelock-tugging blacklegs. It comes out of people's experience, as your notions come out of yours. No point being aimlessly offensive about it, is there?
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by tlttf on Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:49 pm

None whatsoever Penderyn, if you include the former government in your description were in total agreement.

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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Ivan on Mon Dec 19, 2011 5:10 pm

why should a working man voting Tory be classed as scum
tlttf. I take it you meant working class man?

Tony Blair is usually blamed for muddying the waters and taking Labour away from its roots, but it was actually John Smith, who died before he could upset anyone, who started the 'prawn cocktail offensive' to charm the City of London. Until that time, politics in this country was almost entirely class-based, and far fewer people ever changed their party allegiance. However, with the shrinking of the working class (and the creation of an underclass, most of whose members don’t bother to vote, despite what ‘The Daily Mail’ will tell you), the Labour Party had to seek to broaden its appeal.

As Labour was seen as the party of the working class until the 1990s, any working class person voting Tory could well have been labelled as a traitor to his or her class, on a par with someone who carries on working while his workmates go on strike yet still takes the pay rise when it’s won. No doubt somebody in Chipping Norton who voted Labour would have raised more than a few eyebrows as well.
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Dec 19, 2011 5:24 pm

Ivan wrote:.... No doubt somebody in Chipping Norton who voted Labour would have raised more than a few eyebrows as well.

Quite so. Any "class difference" which produces votes for either Left or Right is geographical. Chipping Norton is a hillside Market Town made wealthy by the mediaeval wool trade. It is surrounded by green fields that contain Tory landowners including a Prime Minister but few voters compared with gritty northern mill towns which have more voters than green fields.
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Penderyn on Mon Dec 19, 2011 5:33 pm

tlttf wrote:None whatsoever Penderyn, if you include the former government in your description were in total agreement.

I'd include any politician who doesn't come out of a Party with a democratic sytem. That probably leaves me with Plaid Cymru and the Greens, at least of those I know.
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Penderyn on Mon Dec 19, 2011 5:36 pm

Ivan wrote:
why should a working man voting Tory be classed as scum
tlttf. I take it you meant working class man?

Tony Blair is usually blamed for muddying the waters and taking Labour away from its roots, but it was actually John Smith, who died before he could upset anyone, who started the 'prawn cocktail offensive' to charm the City of London. Until that time, politics in this country was almost entirely class-based, and far fewer people ever changed their party allegiance. However, with the shrinking of the working class (and the creation of an underclass, most of whose members don’t bother to vote, despite what ‘The Daily Mail’ will tell you), the Labour Party had to seek to broaden its appeal.

As Labour was seen as the party of the working class until the 1990s, any working class person voting Tory could well have been labelled as a traitor to his or her class, on a par with someone who carries on working while his workmates go on strike yet still takes the pay rise when it’s won. No doubt somebody in Chipping Norton who voted Labour would have raised more than a few eyebrows as well.

The working class didn't shrink - it grew, as predicted. What shrank was the organised, industrial working class, especially after the Noise Machine persuaded the mugs not to support the miners.
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Ivanhoe on Mon Dec 19, 2011 7:08 pm

tlttf wrote:Ivanhoe, a product of pure envy, why should a working man voting Tory be classed as scum, similar to Blue I grew up on a council estate in Leeds and went to a secondary modern (pre-comprehensive). Started work at 15 as an apprentice engineer subsidised by my parents (both solid labour supporters). Joined the army, took numerous management courses and seminars (all in my own time), ran garages on behalf of large franchises, taught NVQ's at level 4 to those in need. Had my own garage and now work in Central London.
Being called scum for supporting a government that wants people to get off their arses would/could be offensive if stated by somebody that holds just a smidgeon of my respect, fortunately you don't fall into that bracket. Is tomorrow your last signing on day before Christmas?

Working class people actually assuming that their fellows need to get off their arses and work, is indeed the judgemental hallmark of the working class Tory, enjoying looking down on his own.

And you even make a judgement about me, well dont. Because this merely proves how damned ignorant and arrogant you are.

And this was indeed what set Thatcher apart from other PM's that have run this country before. Thatcher was a working class jumped up madam, who caught the attention of the media because she was groomed to.

And millions fell for her awful diatribe from day one, including it seems, you.
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Ivanhoe on Mon Dec 19, 2011 7:14 pm

Penderyn wrote:
tlttf wrote:Ivanhoe, a product of pure envy, why should a working man voting Tory be classed as scum, similar to Blue I grew up on a council estate in Leeds and went to a secondary modern (pre-comprehensive). Started work at 15 as an apprentice engineer subsidised by my parents (both solid labour supporters). Joined the army, took numerous management courses and seminars (all in my own time), ran garages on behalf of large franchises, taught NVQ's at level 4 to those in need. Had my own garage and now work in Central London.
Being called scum for supporting a government that wants people to get off their arses would/could be offensive if stated by somebody that holds just a smidgeon of my respect, fortunately you don't fall into that bracket. Is tomorrow your last signing on day before Christmas?

Quite a lot of people, you know, would sooner be jealous of a sow than of someone who makes money out of others. Most people will willingly work for others so long as they aren't slaving for a gang of lying, thieving gets such as run the tory party, and are contemptuous of forelock-tugging blacklegs. It comes out of people's experience, as your notions come out of yours. No point being aimlessly offensive about it, is there?

Brilliant.
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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by blueturando on Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:58 pm

Ivanhoe, a product of pure envy, why should a working man voting Tory be classed as scum, similar to Blue I grew up on a council estate in Leeds and went
to a secondary modern (pre-comprehensive). Started work at 15 as an apprentice engineer subsidised by my parents (both solid labour supporters). Joined the army, took numerous management courses and seminars (all in my own time), ran garages on behalf of large franchises, taught NVQ's at level 4 to those in need. Had my own garage and now work in Central London.
Being called scum for supporting a government that wants people to get off their arses would/could be offensive if stated by somebody that holds just a smidgeon of my respect, fortunately you don't fall into that bracket. Is tomorrow your last signing on day before Christmas?.

Well said tlttf.......Maybe some of the posters on here seem to be the spoilt little brats who just got whatever they wanted from their parents (the something for nothing crowd) As for me I worked from the age of 13 doing various part time jobs as my mother couldn't afford to give us kids pocket money. This is not a sob story, but it taught me that you dont get something for nothing, you have to work and earn it. I took any crappy jobs I could get when I left school during the recession in 83, then studied and worked my way up through my career.

And this is what Thatcher + my mother taught me.....You have to get off your backside and work for what you get. Don't expect the state or your parents to provide for you. I have full admiration for aspirational people who want to better themselves and if they become wealthy via those aspirations and hard work then good luck to them...No jealousy here!!! Not so keen on people who just inherit wealth and then think that gives them status, I have no time for those people.

The mixed message I got from Labour was that the state is more important than anything else and if you are in the private sector then we don't really care much for you, but we are happy to keep increasing your taxes to pay for more and more government workers or government waste ( I am not confusing the two) Without aspirational working or middle class people the government of any colour would not be able to function and there would be no public sector....See communism for an example of where this fails.

I say mixed message because I thought Blair was a refreshing change for Labour and he did change many things for the better until the Iraq was and then it all went t*ts up. I think his ego got too big and thought he could do whatever he wanted...as did Thatcher over the Poll tax. These things came back to bite both in the butt. Anyone who thinks Britain was better under Labour in the 70's before Maggie must be mad, or living in denial........Strike after strike, 3 day week, regular power cuts, loss making business. The country was SICK and the unions were out of control.

I am not sure what the class system is beyond the aristocrisy at one end and the under class at the other. Inbetween you just have people who want to better themselves for their familes.......is that such a bad thing? Wanting to be successful, happy and be able to support your children or aging parents ect. I will always support a political party who will encourage me or my children to do better and not fall into the mire of mediocracy


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Re: Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

Post by Ivan on Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:34 pm

blue. The main economic event of the 1970s was the overnight quadrupling of the price of oil by our friends in the Middle East. That had a devastating effect on inflation. It also made coal miners realise how valuable they were, and with a Tory government in power which believed in “market forces”, who could blame them? Miners in the UK were being paid £60 a week, while those in Germany were receiving £200 a week at that time.

With rampant inflation - which was neither the fault of the Tory government of 1970-74 or the Labour one which followed it - the unions did what they are in business to do, which is to try and protect the living standards of their members. For the sake of accuracy, I must point out that the 3-day week was introduced by the Tories in December 1973, taking full effect in January 1974. The power cuts came during the miners’ strike – when the Tories were in power. Labour returned to office in March 1974.

You asked me to discuss ‘class’ with you last week but I haven’t had the time yet to tackle such a complicated issue. Suffice is to say that, without recourse to sociology books, when I take my dog for a walk, I often cross a main road from one housing estate to another, and they are like two nations. (I think Disraeli wrote something about that...)
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