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The UK and the European Union - in or out?

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The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by witchfinder on Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:09 pm

First topic message reminder :

EUROSCEPTICS & UKIP CANNOT ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS

In the late 1980s the nations of the European Free Trade Association (EFTA) began to seriously contemplate joining the EU, there were many reasons for this, but they included the realisation that it was the only way forward for trade and prosperity, in the case of Sweden it was also the fact that several large companies made it clear they would relocate if Sweden stayed outside the EU.

Current EFTA members: Iceland - Lichtenstein - Norway - Switzerland

EFTA members who joined the EU: - Austria - Denmark - Portugal - Sweden - United Kingdom - Finland

In 1994 the European Economic Area was formed (EEA), this was a compromise organisation for those members of EFTA who did not or could not join the European Union, joining the EEA meant access to EU markets, but the deal also meant accepting EU rules, even though these states were not / are not EU members.

THE QUESTION TO THE EUROSCEPTICS IS THIS: After leaving the EU, would the UK be free of all EU rules, regulations, directives and laws?

And the straighforward answer is: NO  and here is why:-

A meat production company in Lincolnshire is close to signing a multi-million pound deal with a European supermarket chain, just before the two managing directors take out their pens to sign the agreement, the boss of the supermarket chain pulls out a list of conditions.

The list of conditions consist of EU rules, unfortunately Britain has left the EU and unless the British meat producer conforms to EU standards the deal cannot go ahead, the rules cover everything from animal welfare, temperature control, employee rights, labeling, weight, moisture content and hygiene.

So no matter what happens in the future, the UK will always have to accept EU laws

Think of Norway as an example of a European nation outside the European Union, Norway is a member of the European Economic Area ( the EEA ), and as such has to accept into law virtualy every EU rule, regulation, directive and law, furthermore Norway has had to sign up to many of the EU treaties.

Norway has no say and no vote on any of the EU legislation which it accepts, and this is exactly how Britain would end up, inside the EU the UK influences legislation, it does have a say, and it does have a vote, unlike Norway.

A FREE TRADE AGREEMENT "JUST LIKE SWITZERLAND" [ Nigel Farage ]

According to UKIP, the future under them would be simple, all we need to do is leave the EU and sign up to a new free trade agreement, and the future would be bright  Very Happy, but a free trade agreement ?, lets look at that word "agreement", an agreement is not one sided, it is between the parties that make the agreement, and lets face facts here, the EU will call the shots, not Britain.

The European Union is not going to change its rules to cater for a single nation of 60 million, especialy when that nation has left the EU but still wants all the benefits of belonging, namely trade.

I am afraid that under such circumstances, Germany, France, Italy and the rest would say "our way or not at all", the best solution by far is to simply remain within the EU and go forward into the future together.
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:21 pm

The RATE of income tax is possibly of less importance than the efficiency of its collection. The small size of the Channel Islands relative to the UK makes tax-evasion difficult there, because everybody in business knows everybody else and it would soon become apparent if a Trader was doing surprisingly well.

One of the things to emerge from Britain's current economic malaise is that many of "our" Companies have their Head Office in a Country with a gentler tax regime, such as Switzerland or Ireland, or declare all their sales profits in a place like Luxembourg. Or the Channel Islands.

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EU peace prize

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:21 pm

Blessed are the Peacemakers. The E U has been awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. Nick Clegg commented that this must be the first time that such a prize has been accorded to an acronym.
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by tlttf on Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:17 pm

Should Scotland gain independence, does that mean we won't have pay as much money to the EU anymore?

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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by astra on Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:49 pm

Government figures 'wanted to buy BP oil fields'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-14895693


Prof Kemp said there was evidence in the documents that the benefits of oil to Scotland's economy were "downplayed" to suppress the nationalist movement, which had reached a peak in the 1974 elections.

He said: "Certainly the UK government didn't want to encourage that at all so in any pronouncements the size of the future benefits, like the tax revenues, were certainly not exaggerated."

The book also reveals the UK government's tactics to prevent "disruption payments" for construction of the Sullom Voe terminal being made directly to Shetland Islands Council rather than to the Treasury.


it has all been a big fiddle!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-20067255


Last edited by astra on Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:50 pm

Fiscal independence means that everything costs more.
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by tlttf on Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:24 am

The contents of this post have been deleted because they constituted a serious breach of copyright. The rules make clear that no more than 14-15 lines of quoted text should be used. An entire article, consisting of 50 lines, had been posted.

http://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t137-copyright-concerns

On this occasion only, and as a gesture of goodwill, the link can stay. If you can't be bothered to pick out the main points of an article, please just post that in future:-

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2237590/Spanish-send-Algerian-criminal-live-UK--theres-it.html#ixzz2D88kyTNI

Ivan

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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by tlttf on Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:00 pm

Lets try again then shall we?


Europe's €50bn bung that enriches landowners and kills wildlife

The EU's farm subsidies are a modern equivalent of feudal aid. As Europe suffers under austerity, it's right to call for reform

Farming
'Not long ago, farm payments were justified on the grounds that world demand was low. Now they are justified on the grounds that world demand is high.

There's a neat symmetry in the numbers that helped to sink the European summit. The proposed budget was €50bn higher than the UK government could accept. This is the amount of money that European farmers are given every year. Britain's contentious budget rebate is worth €3.6bn a year: a fraction less than our contribution to Europe's farm subsidies.

Hands up those that want to be part of this crooked arrangement?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/nov/26/europe-bung-landowners-farm-subsidies

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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Shirina on Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:08 pm

Thanks for your cooperation, tlttf. Smile
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:38 pm

THE CAP derives from the Continental habit of compulsory division of a deceased parent's Estate equally among the children. Thus what were large farms have progressively been divided into smaller and smaller units which are now unprofitable and unproductive.

Modern strategy requires Agri-industry to be enormous in order to be profitable, but traditions are resistent.
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The rabid Tories and their convulsions over Europe

Post by Frances Fox on Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:41 am

The Prime Minister's speech was expected, but if the Conservatives regain power and we actually do get a referendum he will get the help of many immigrants that come into this country especially in 2014 with Romanians and Bulganians being allowed into Britain to vote YES to keep in the EU. The three main parties have broken promises and they all agreed to Britain being taken by stealth from the EEC, EC to the EU without our knowledge. I am not against Immigration provided it is controlled as it used to be not as it is now with "immigration invasion" giving benefits to people whilst the British have to go without. What country is available to our youngsters to emigrate for jobs?

Published: 19th October 2012

THOUSANDS of young jobless Europeans are to get travel expenses and moving costs to come to work in Britain.
The European Commission will pay £250 to help hopefuls get to an interview — and £830 to cover relocation costs if they are offered a job.
Brussels claims thousands will find work under the taxpayer-funded initiative.
Critics fear it will see youngsters from countries with high unemployment flock to the UK, where ONE MILLION young Brits are jobless. The scheme, for those aged from 18 to 30, aims to match jobseekers with suitable jobs.

Frances Fox




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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:57 pm

Frances. Would Rumanians and Bulgarians be allowed to vote in a British referendum? It's a genuine question, I don't know the answer. However, it does sound as if you are expecting to lose an in/out referendum and are already looking for reasons!

Cameron gave a "cast iron" guarantee to hold a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty but then reneged on it, and with his track record on broken promises, will anyone believe him again? Today's speech was just a cynical ploy to keep his rabid right-wing backbenchers from ousting him in the near future; self interest and then party interest before national interest every time with Cameron.
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by tlttf on Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:23 pm

Got agree Ivan, if we wait until 2017 that is a date that the EU has set as the very latest that the EU will be totally fiscally entwined, there will be no room for any negotiation as the rules have already been set. The tories, labour and the lib/dems see no advantage to themselves to offer any straight forward alternative. It's now time to put into action Article 50 of the treaty that allows for an organised withdrawal over a 2 year period.

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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Phil Hornby on Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:13 pm

Can anyone envisage a situation where Cameron ( given the chance, of course!) will obtain a few meaningless changes from the European partners and then declares he has won a huge victory against the previously awful EU , which he then puts to the British people?

This will buy him some time, give him a chance to have hoodwinked a few folk (again!), but still leave him with likely criticism from his mouth-foaming right-wing who will accept nothing but a complete withdrawal and a sustained period of nose-thumbing against all those terrible foreigners...
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:39 pm

I prefer to think that, today, Cameron made it unlikely that anyone will ever again believe a word he says.
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Phil Hornby on Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:46 pm

Taken as read...
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by tlttf on Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:06 am

At least he's drawn a set line between the tories and labour (if he can be believed). Labour have stated they will not offer a referendum no matter what, so they are happy with the direction the union is moving.

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Mock the speech: media miss key message of Cameron's EU speech

Post by skwalker1964 on Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:46 am

Original including links at: http://wp.me/p2sftc-4Dm

TV’s news comedy show, Mock the Week, has a semi-regular and very funny segment involving Hugh Dennis and one of the other panelists. In this segment, the other panelist will read lines from a senior political figure while Hugh Dennis delivers his interpretation of what the politician really means.

I had the same feeling this morning as I watched David Cameron’s much-trailed speech on the EU. BBC News showed the speech in full, and afterward commentators made much of the obvious and very unsurprising points of the speech, namely that the speech was Cameron’s (rather desperate) attempt to defuse the threat from UKIP and his own backbenchers and to persuade europhobic voters to support him in the next general election by dangling the promise of an ‘in/out’ referendum in 2017.

Some also highlighted the obvious fact that by cravenly giving a 2017 date for the referendum, he was condemning the British economy to up to 5 years of uncertainty – a potentially crippling blow (on top of so many others) to any chances of economic recovery.

However, by focusing on the blindingly obvious points, the media (at least all the media that I have seen/heard) missed the most revealing points of Cameron’s speech.

Everyone knows that a large section of Cameron’s backbenches is rabidly anti-Europe, and that he’s terrified of the threat to the Tories’ electoral chances posed by UKIP splitting the right-wing vote, and the parts of his speech that addressed that were embarrassingly transparent.

But there was a different and more sinister leitmotif – a theme repeated to the point of nausea – in the speech, and it was there that I kept having Mock the Week flashbacks.


Mock the Freak: Cameron’s buzzwords and what he really means

Here are some examples. If you want to see through my eyes, picture Hugh Dennis, mischievous grin in place, behind Cameron as he delivers his speech, giving us a running translation of the real thoughts behind the words:

So I want to speak to you today with urgency and frankness about the European Union and how it must change – both to deliver prosperity and to retain the support of its peoples.

HD: So I want you to believe one thing while I mean another – the EU is hampering our plan to make my mates and me even richer!

For all our connections to the rest of the world – of which we are rightly proud – we have always been a European power – and we always will be.

HD: Agincourt! Waterloo!

There is a crisis of European competitiveness, as other nations across the world soar ahead.

HD: We want to cut your wages so we can maintain our profits, because China and India pay slave wages!

There is a gap between the EU and its citizens which has grown dramatically in recent years..

HD: We really, really don’t like that pesky European Court of Human Rights or the Working Time Directive!

This is the competitiveness challenge – and much of our weakness in meeting it is self-inflicted.

HD: If you people keep insisting on decent pay and a social safety net, how can we make money?!

Complex rules restricting our labour markets are not some naturally occurring phenomenon. Just as excessive regulation is not some external plague that’s been visited on our businesses.

HD: We really, REALLY don’t like that pesky ECHR and those damned regulations about pay and employment protection!

These problems have been around too long. And the progress in dealing with them, far too slow.

HD: Damn you, you ECHR judges and you bleeding heart liberal pinko EU bastards and your stupid rules – you’re slowing down our race to the bottom!

If Europe today accounts for just over 7 per cent of the world’s population, produces around 25 per cent of global GDP and has to finance 50 per cent of global social spending, then it’s obvious that it will have to work very hard to maintain its prosperity and way of life.

HD: All those poor countries save money by letting people live in slums, and dammit, it’s just not fair! We will cut everything to fatten our profits – your misery is a small price to pay!

People are increasingly frustrated that decisions taken further and further away from them mean their living standards are slashed through enforced austerity..

HD: Enforcing austerity is for US to do – not for Johnny Foreigner!

And yes, of course, we are seeing this frustration with the EU very dramatically in Britain.

HD: Yes, of course we are distracting you from what’s really going on by stoking anti-EU resentment!

[My vision] is built on five principles. The first: competitiveness.

HD: It’s really, REALLY important for our plans that we be allowed to keep cutting your wages and protections!

In a global race, can we really justify the huge number of expensive peripheral European institutions?

HD: In the race to the bottom, there’s no spare cash for looking after the sick, disabled or unemployed – or for the damned ECHR that might try to make us!

Competitiveness demands flexibility, choice and openness – or Europe will fetch up in a no-man’s land between the rising economies of Asia and market-driven North America.

HD: We really, REALLY hate the ECHR and those EU regulations – we WILL cut your wages, just like they do in China, and fire you 'at will' just like they do in the US!

..compounded by a European Court of Justice

HD: I’ve told you – we REALLY hate it!

We cannot harmonise everything. For example, it is neither right nor necessary to claim that the integrity of the single market, or full membership of the European Union requires the working hours of British hospital doctors to be set in Brussels irrespective of the views of British parliamentarians and practitioners.

HD: As well as paying you less, we want to be able to make you work longer, and the ECHR won’t bloody let us!

We understand and respect the right of others to maintain their commitment to this goal.

HD: As long as we’re not bound by all those pesky human rights and employment laws!

We need to examine whether the balance is right in so many areas where the European Union has legislated including on the environment, social affairs and crime.

HD: We really, really, REALLY hate that bloody court and those bloody laws! Why shouldn’t we be free to pollute, exploit, starve and imprison anyone we feel like?!

..unnecessary rules and regulations..

HD: You get the picture! Yadda yadda..

You get the picture. Cameron was cynically doing what he feels he has to, in order to try to head off a political threat by pandering to UKIP and the Conservatives’ lunatic fringe – but he also couldn’t help but send a thinly-veiled message to both of those sets of right-wing, bash-the-poor ‘partners in crime’:

Don’t forget the big picture – we’re doing this to get rich no matter what the consequences for the little people.

HD: Don’t forget the big picture – we’re doing this to get rich no matter what the consequences for the little people.

(Sincere thanks to Hugh Dennis for his help with the translation - and to Phil for the inspiration of his pictorial contributions!)

Oh, and I've now returned to a conviction that we need to stay in the EU at all costs. Thanks, Dave.


Last edited by skwalker1964 on Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:50 am

Since every reference to Cameron apparently has to contain references to the Labour Party, I was struck by how similar yesterday's hostage to fortune was to the ways in which Harold Wilson dealt with the EU when he was PM. He changed his Policy with every new edition of the daily BBC Nationwide programme.

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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by tlttf on Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:12 pm

On the bright side all the people presently against a referendum are the same people that wanted us to join the euro.

Personally I'd like referendum guaranteed immediately after the next election (should they win). Then again I won't be voting labour as they guarantee we'll never have a referendum (unless they change their mind naturally).

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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by skwalker1964 on Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:39 pm

What, and you would vote Labour if they offered a referendum? Seems unlikely, but if so then you're a 'cheap date'! lol
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:42 pm

At least he's drawn a set line between the tories and labour (if he can be believed).
tlttf. Correction. Ed Miliband drew the line by being clear enough and brave enough to rule out a referendum, as he is concerned about removing uncertainty for potential investors. Unlike Cameron, he is not a prisoner of rabid extremists in his party.

Labour have stated they will not offer a referendum no matter what, so they are happy with the direction the union is moving.
The Labour Party hasn’t said that it's happy. But Labour negotiates in a more mature way, not by throwing toys out of the pram like the Tories. As Angela Merkel said yesterday, with 27 members of the club, everyone has to compromise.

On the bright side all the people presently against a referendum are the same people that wanted us to join the euro.
More nonsense. If Labour had wanted to join the euro, they had thirteen years to do so; Gordon Brown never wanted to join. I don’t think there is widespread enthusiasm for the EU in the Labour Party, but enough of us have decided that it’s probably the safest and least worst option.

Personally I'd like referendum guaranteed immediately after the next election (should they win).
The Tories don’t stand a snowflake’s chance in hell of winning the next election, so this argument about a referendum is purely academic. Even with Cameron’s multitude of lies and the promises he never intended to keep, the Tories couldn’t win their first election since 1992. Tell me who there is who didn’t vote Tory in 2010 but will switch to them and give Cameron a majority? 700,000 sacked public sector workers? Disabled people who are still alive after the genocide practised by ATOS? Those who can’t find work and have had their benefits reduced? No ruling party in the last forty years has increased its percentage of the vote in the subsequent election, and the Tories certainly won’t in the current climate.

Cameron wouldn’t give you an immediate referendum if he did win. He expects people to trust him again (what a joke!) and give him a blank cheque. He would then “negotiate”, be handed a couple of crumbs from the EU, claim he has been successful and recommend a vote for staying in. In the meantime, some foreign businesses will have had enough of the uncertainty and moved elsewhere.

Then again I won't be voting labour
I’m very relieved to hear that. I’d seriously have to question my allegiance if the party attracted your vote.
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by astradt1 on Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:49 pm

I was just wondering that if all these social and employment polices which Cameron says are harming Britain also apply to the other EU states or is Cameron saying only Britain follows them?
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:55 pm

astradt1. The regulations apply across the EU, as I suspect you know. It's only in the British Tory Party that treating workers like human beings and giving them employment rights is considered bad for the welfare and prosperity of a country.
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by blueturando on Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:13 pm

I am not a fan of the EU machine as it is right now, but think Britain operates much better when we can have a strong and beneficial trading partnership with EU countries. None of us signed up or voted to have more political integration and we were not given a choice as all major UK parties towed the same line.

I do not believe for a minute that Cameron is serious about having a referendum and this anouncment was made to placate the euro sceptics on the back benches and to also give the elecorate false hope and garner more votes in the next GE.

There are so many 'what ifs and buts' in what he said and if he wants to be taken seriously then he should outline what powers he wants to be repatriated to the UK and confirm that if he is unsuccessful in regaining these powers that a referendum is confirmed in writing (statute)....Then I may believe what he says.

If Labour could be on their game for once, then maybe they could press home these points in much stronger language. Unfortunaley so far they have let Cameron steal a march on them while they stand there looking at eachother asking 'what do we do and say now'?

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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:19 pm

The Eclipse of British Reason

Extracts from an article by Joschka Fischer (former German Foreign Minister and Vice Chancellor):-

"The UK’s national interests have not changed, and no fundamental shifts within the EU have worked against those interests. What has changed is Britain’s domestic politics: a prime minister too weak to control his roughly 100 anti-European backbenchers (call them the ‘High Tea Party’), and a Conservative establishment wary of the UK Independence Party’s rise.

By exiting the EU, the UK would severely damage its economic interests, losing both the single market and London’s role as a financial centre. An exit would also harm Britain’s geopolitical interests, both in Europe (where, ironically, it favours EU enlargement) and, worldwide, in its global standing and special relationship with the USA (which has made clear its preference for a European UK).

Unfortunately, Cameron’s track record does not inspire confidence in his ability to manage a different outcome. When, in 2009, he ordered the Conservative MEPs to withdraw from the European People’s Party, he deprived the Tories – now consigned to sit with sectarians and obscurantists – of any influence in the European Parliament. By weakening the UK’s position within the EU, he ended up strengthening the Eurosceptics within his party.

It seems that Cameron has abandoned rational considerations. Indeed, the belief that the EU would renegotiate Britain’s membership terms borders on magical thinking. Such a precedent would be applicable to the other member states, which would mean the end of the EU."


For the full article:-
http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/britain-blunders-to-the-eu-exit-by-joschka-fischer
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Phil Hornby on Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:39 pm

It is also surprising that the raft of ( employee-detrimental ) employment law changes - which Cameron insists is so vital for the ongoing prosperity of the British economy - can wait so long for 'renegotiation'. Anyone would think that all this nonsense was driven by Conservative Party political considerations.... if we didn't know better , of course... Shocked
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:19 pm

How strong is the "sympathy vote"?

I ask merely to know the figure of Cameron's likely reward at the next General Election.
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Frances Fox on Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:54 pm

Ivan, at the last General Election the voting system was very unclear and my Agent could not believe who were allowed to vote. I cannot remember the exact method apart from people could vote from another country if they had registered within a certain time.

However, I will try and get positive information for you but it may take a little while.

Regards

Frances
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by boatlady on Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:34 pm

Steve, I like Hugh Dennis too - think you got his voice spot on. Made me laugh as I always do when I hear the truth spoken
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Phil Hornby on Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:18 pm

" Made me laugh as I always do when I hear the truth spoken"

Best to avoid Wednesday PMQs in that case... Shocked
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by skwalker1964 on Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:13 pm

boatlady wrote:Steve, I like Hugh Dennis too - think you got his voice spot on. Made me laugh as I always do when I hear the truth spoken

Thank you - I'm glad you liked it! Smile
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:03 am

This would be the real question in the unlikely event that the Tories get elected in 2015 and a referendum is held:-

“Will you agree to lose all your employment rights to preserve Cameron’s job and the lifestyle of the City?”
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:47 pm

The joke will be on the British Public if a Yes/No referendum results in our leaving the EU, because it's not just a single entity like a Dog that we've decided must be put down. Thousands of changes will follow from our withdrawal, many of them totally unpredictable.

And there will not be a way to get the toothpaste back into the tube.
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by boatlady on Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:01 pm

That's what's wrong with referendums IMO - usually the issues are too complex for a simple yes/no Hell I find the tea/coffee question pretty complex!
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:36 pm

The real reason Tories want to pull out of the EU

To get rid of the Working Time Directive:-

http://liberalconspiracy.org/2013/01/29/the-real-reason-cameron-wants-to-pull-out-of-the-eu/
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:58 pm

One of our members has drawn my attention to the Peter Hitchens column in ‘The Mail on Sunday’, not one of my favourite papers. However, in the interests of fairness, here are some extracts from his article on 27 January:-

"Does Mr Cameron want Britain to leave the EU? No. He has repeatedly said he doesn’t want us to, and he has never said he does. If he fails to win any serious concessions from the EU in his promised talks, will he urge that we leave? Not a chance. The EU apparatus knows this, so why should they give him anything in these discussions?

In the remote event of us voting to leave, will Parliament obey the will of the people? Most unlikely. It will not be legally obliged to do so, and there is no majority of MPs for departure. Far more likely is another ‘renegotiation’ followed by a rerun of the vote to make sure we get the ‘right’ result. If you doubt this, look at what has happened when other EU countries have voted the ‘wrong’ way.

As it happens, these questions are largely irrelevant, as the Conservative Party will not win the 2015 election, so Mr Cameron will not have his negotiations or his referendum. This referendum pledge is such a blatant attempt to fend off UKIP that surely even the dimmest voter can see through it. UKIP voters, in any case, are actually far more worried about mass immigration than they are about the EU."


For the full article:-
http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/


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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Phil Hornby on Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:15 pm

I have always considered that Peter Hitchens is a mad as a box of assorted March Hares which have been certified insane by a leading psychiatrist - but he may have a point here.

At least Hitchens is not as Tory-worshipping as one of his eminent predecessors, Sir John Junor, who positively dribbled at the mere mention of the name of Thatcher....
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by bobby on Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:08 pm

What I expect may happen is that a referendum if we actually have one will be worded in such a way that after the results are in, it will be found to be illegal and made null and void, and by the time another has been arranged, everyone will have forgotten what the referendum was for in the first place.
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:19 am

I don't think it matters. Cameron has reversed every single promise that he made in his 2010 Election Manifesto.

Who thinks he's now going to break the habits of a lifetime?
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Re: The UK and the European Union - in or out?

Post by Ivan on Sat Feb 02, 2013 3:18 pm

Change is needed in Europe, but David Cameron’s posturing is not the way to bring it about

Extracts from an article by Roy Hattersley:-

Cameron’s EU speech was one of the most vacuous ever heralded as a major policy statement. We already knew that he wants to renegotiate the terms of Britain’s membership of the EU and that he intends to follow the renegotiation with a referendum. He promised that the long-anticipated test of public opinion would ask the question: “In or out". He didn’t have anything to say about “benefit tourism”, even though its opponents base their case on a misinterpretation of reciprocal welfare rights that is as grotesque as their claims about net migration from the EU.

Carswell, Cash and Reckless tell Cameron what they want with tireless regularity. They share his view that the “rules restricting our labour markets are not some naturally recurring phenomenon”. But they go on to give the platitude meaning by demanding the repeal, or emasculation, of the Working Time Directive that, in Britain’s case, allows a working week of more than 48 hours only if the employee freely agrees. The WTD, like so much of the despised “regulation”, is essential to the single market that Thatcher agreed with Jacques Delors. If the employers in one country could undercut the costs of employers in another by sweating their workers, competition would become no more than a race to the bottom of the social responsibility league.

Cameron cannot negotiate the new European deal that he has encouraged the Europhobes to expect. So, in 2015, given the chance, he is bound to fail the men and women whose support he hoped his speech would buy. Happily, the British voters are going to deny him the opportunity. All the more pity that, in order to gain a brief political respite, he should prejudice inward investment to Britain and reduce our influence in the world.


For the whole article:-
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/politics/2013/01/change-needed-europe-david-cameron%E2%80%99s-posturing-not-way-bring-it-about
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EU or no EU

Post by Cynic on Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:53 pm

First of all let me point out one thing: The old divisions of left and right are dead. If you continue to vote along those lines, your wasting your vote and fooling yourself.

UK politics is divided along the line now of EU or NO EU. Unfortunately, the Europhiles control the LibDems, Labour and the Tories, so it absolutely irrelevant which one you vote for, you will get the same set of policies (most of them covert, and part of the same shared hidden agenda).

Why do you think David Cameron has just committed Electoral suicide by putting off an Eu referendum till 2017? Because he knows (or at least he thinks) that as a result Labour will win. This does not bother him, because like most europhiles, he is primarily loyal to the EU. So as long as him or his europhile mates in Labour or Lib Dems are in control, thats ok. Labour will refuse to give us a democratic choice on it, and even if we got a cast iron promise, it wouldnt happen till about 2023, so thats nearly 10 years the Europhiles have to let in another 5 million immigrants, all of whom will be given the vote, and will ofc vote for the EU. Its gerrymandering on an epic scale by a dirty cartel of lying europhiles.

To that end, you have to realise that the UK has in effect been a one party state for 30 years. You get the same policies from three identical but differently named parties. UKIP, however, may well put a spanner in the works by providing for the first time in 30 years an anti-Eu rallying point.

Now lets address the lies.

Labour, Libdems and Tories all lie. Not one of them is any better than any other.

Look at the lies told to us by all three parties about the EU

"Nothing will do more damage to the pro-European movement than giving room to the suspicion that we have something to hide, that we do not have the "cojones" to carry our argument to the people." — Nick Clegg, the Guardian, 15th October 2003

"The electorate should be asked for their opinion when all our questions have been answered, when all the details are known, when the legislation has been finally tempered and scrutinised." — Rt Hon. Tony Blair MP, speech to the House of Commons, 20th April 2004

"This constitutional treaty can only come into force once it has been ratified in accordance with the constitutional arrangements of each member state. In the UK, this will require primary legislation amending the European Communities Act 1972 and then endorsement in a referendum." — Rt Hon. Jack Straw MP, Foreign Secretary, speech to the House of Commons, 26th January 2005

"The Government have made it clear that the constitutional treaty will be ratified in the UK only after a referendum." — Geoff Hoon MP, Europe Minister, speech to the House of Commons, 23rd May 2006

"There is no question of any constitutional treaty going through without the express consent of the British people . . . Regardless of how other members vote, we will have a referendum on the subject." — Rt Hon. Tony Blair MP, Prime Minister, speech to the House of Commons, 21st June 2004

"The Government have consistently made it clear that the mechanism in the United Kingdom whereby the European draft constitutional treaty could be implemented is approval by the House of Commons followed by a referendum of the people of Britain. There is no question of implementing it by the back door." — Douglas Alexander, Europe Minister, speech to the House of Commons, 31st January 2006

"The EU's constitution is so new and large a document that it would be right to hold a referendum on it. " — Anders Fogh Rasmussen, Danish Prime Minister, EU Observer, 31st May 2003

"I am logically in favour of a referendum. It would be the only legitimate way. " — Jacques Chirac, French President, speaking about the EU Constitution at the EU Thessaloniki Summit, 21st-22nd June 2003

"The referendum should go ahead in any event. Of course it should." — Rt Hon. Tony Blair MP, Prime Minister, speech to the House of Commons, 20th April 2004

"It is absolutely clear that there should be a referendum on the European constitutional treaty, and that remains the Government's position." — Geoff Hoon MP, Europe Minister, speech to the House of Commons, 16th January 2007

"We will put it to the British people in a referendum." — Gordon Brown, General Election Manifesto, 2005

"... ratification must be subject to a referendum of the British people." — Liberal Democrat Party, General Election Manifesto, 2005

Lie after lie after lie after lie.

How anyone can be so stupid and gullible to continue to fall for the lies of the Lib/Lab/Con party and keep voting for them baffles me.

See heres a question ALL labour supporters avoid, even the owner of this forum has avoided it twice on Twitter:

If the Labour party is the party of the working class, explain why it is in the working class's interest to allow 5 million immigrants in, to create a vast pool of cheap labour? Its a fact that 90% of the 1.1 million new jobs created during 2001 -2011 went to immigrant workers. Whats more, because of the vast pool of cheap labour, many jobs that were on higher than minimum wage were turned into agency jobs bang on minimum wage and taken by immigrants.

The labour party is supposed to stand up for the interests of the working class. Instead we had a labour government which did the EU's dirty work, and gave our kids jobs away to immigrants on lower wages, thus undoing 150 years of Union work in raising the conditions of the working class.

In Boston and Spalding, for example, all jobs are now advertised in Polish first and then english, and you cannot get a job in any of the food processing jobs unless you can speak Polish, Working in the Geest factory, for example is like walking into Gdansk or Gdynya

The labour party europhiles utterly betrayed the working man of this country, and sold them down the river to the EU, long before the torie europhiles came along.

Its utterly undefendable.

Number of times the question has been avoide don Twitter by Forum owner 4
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