The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1)

First topic message reminder :

EUROSCEPTICS & UKIP CANNOT ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS

In the late 1980s the nations of the European Free Trade Association (EFTA) began to seriously contemplate joining the EU, there were many reasons for this, but they included the realisation that it was the only way forward for trade and prosperity, in the case of Sweden it was also the fact that several large companies made it clear they would relocate if Sweden stayed outside the EU.

Current EFTA members: Iceland - Lichtenstein - Norway - Switzerland

EFTA members who joined the EU: - Austria - Denmark - Portugal - Sweden - United Kingdom - Finland

In 1994 the European Economic Area was formed (EEA), this was a compromise organisation for those members of EFTA who did not or could not join the European Union, joining the EEA meant access to EU markets, but the deal also meant accepting EU rules, even though these states were not / are not EU members.

THE QUESTION TO THE EUROSCEPTICS IS THIS: After leaving the EU, would the UK be free of all EU rules, regulations, directives and laws?

And the straighforward answer is: NO  and here is why:-

A meat production company in Lincolnshire is close to signing a multi-million pound deal with a European supermarket chain, just before the two managing directors take out their pens to sign the agreement, the boss of the supermarket chain pulls out a list of conditions.

The list of conditions consist of EU rules, unfortunately Britain has left the EU and unless the British meat producer conforms to EU standards the deal cannot go ahead, the rules cover everything from animal welfare, temperature control, employee rights, labeling, weight, moisture content and hygiene.

So no matter what happens in the future, the UK will always have to accept EU laws

Think of Norway as an example of a European nation outside the European Union, Norway is a member of the European Economic Area ( the EEA ), and as such has to accept into law virtualy every EU rule, regulation, directive and law, furthermore Norway has had to sign up to many of the EU treaties.

Norway has no say and no vote on any of the EU legislation which it accepts, and this is exactly how Britain would end up, inside the EU the UK influences legislation, it does have a say, and it does have a vote, unlike Norway.

A FREE TRADE AGREEMENT "JUST LIKE SWITZERLAND" [ Nigel Farage ]

According to UKIP, the future under them would be simple, all we need to do is leave the EU and sign up to a new free trade agreement, and the future would be bright  , but a free trade agreement ?, lets look at that word "agreement", an agreement is not one sided, it is between the parties that make the agreement, and lets face facts here, the EU will call the shots, not Britain.

The European Union is not going to change its rules to cater for a single nation of 60 million, especialy when that nation has left the EU but still wants all the benefits of belonging, namely trade.

I am afraid that under such circumstances, Germany, France, Italy and the rest would say "our way or not at all", the best solution by far is to simply remain within the EU and go forward into the future together.

".... the Euro will be a success, and that one day the UK will be part of it - sooner or later."

Unless by that time we've had to learn Chinese.

Its strange isn't it, we got stuffed by the USA who believe themselves to be the world leaders for democracy, when they wouldnt support Lehmans bank, and are being saved by the Chinks, who believe themselves to be the worlds leaders for Communism. Just a thought?

Who was it said, "Beware the Yellow Peril?"


The Chinese have obviously figured out a strategic advantage somewhere down the line

As I see it there is only one reason China would bail out the west/euro zone, that is that we are their largest market, if we their largest customers, go down the pan so will much of of their manufacturing follow, as we keep hearing we are part of a global economy.
China has no care for the west, just themselves, so to keep themselves working it is in their interest to bail us out or where else will they flog their £5.00 jeans etc.

Several senior Tories have this week tried to give their party the credit for keeping Britain out of the eurozone. They seem to have forgotten that they were out of power from 1997 to 2010, and that if Tony Blair had had his way, Britain would have signed up. Fortunately, the much-maligned Gordon Brown had other ideas, and listed five tests which had to be satisfied before Britain could join.

Perhaps Brown had the foresight to see what is patently obvious now - that for a single currency to work, there needs to be both economic union and political union. The idea that the European Central Bank could set an interest rate which is appropriate for both Germany and Greece at the same time now seems absurd. I suspect that there will either have to be greater convergence between the 17 countries which use the euro (creating a two-tier EU), or the single currency will have to be scrapped.

The EU has many faults. It's undemocratic, it's a massive gravy train, and it has suffered from corruption (its accounts weren't signed off for many years). However, it's also the largest free trade area in the world, and I doubt if, despite all the froth emanating from their back benches, the Tories would ever seriously consider leaving the EU, while Labour and the Liberal Democrats most certainly wouldn't.

Opinion polls suggest that around 70% of the UK population would like a referendum on Europe (you'd need to be at least 54 to have voted in the last one), and that the public favour leaving the EU by a margin of 9% (49%-40%). How much of that opposition is down to the negative stance taken by the Murdoch press over many years is anyone's guess. I suspect that if there was an in or out referendum, and with the three main parties campaigning for an 'in' vote (though whether the Lib Dems will be a main party for much longer with UKIP only 2-3% behind them), opposition to the EU may turn out to be soft. The EU is not near the top of voters' concerns, which are the economy, their jobs (and their homes), schools, crime and immigration, and people are more likely to blame bankers for their woes than the EU.

Unsurprisingly, other member-countries of the European Community take a dim view of Britain's "semi-detached" status, and assuming that current efforts to stabilise the Euro prove successful, the 17 Countries of the Eurozone will undoubtedly pursue an independent course. How long after that can Britain expect to remain inside the tariff protection area?

What I would like to hear from the G20
By johnredwood | Published: November 3, 2011



The untimely intrusion of democracy into the best laid plans of Euroland may have left some leaders thinking today you can have too many summits. This was meant to be the summit where Euroland told the world it had solved its problems, if only the Chinese and some of the others agreed to lend very large sums to complete the fix. Instead this may be the summit where the rest of the world in private turns critical of the way Euroland is running its affairs.

I would like to hear an apology from the leaders of the single currency. It is now doing visible damage, not just to some Euro area countries, but also to the wider global economy.

I would like them to say sorry for setting up a single currency long before they had brought their various economies into line. They broke their own sensible rules, allowing countries in who were miles off qualifying.

I would like them to say sorry for letting members of the zone borrow much larger sums than the rules allowed, imposing no discipline on debt addicted governments.

I would like them to say sorry for thinking that much poorer countries than their own would get out the cheque book and pay for their excess spending, through the IMF and by direct loans from China and elsewhere.

I would like them to say sorry for running a monetary policy which created large property bubbles in countries like Ireland and Spain, weakening the banking systrem.

I would like them to say sorry for failing to demand sufficient cash and capital in the banks, and for publishing favourable stress tests which turned out to be wrong.

I would like them to say sorry for pretending they have a 1 trillion Euro fund to fix it, when all they have is a Luxembourg company with the right to borrow money on behalf of Euro governments.

There can be no fix to the underlying problems until the leading governments recognise their mistakes.

The sad truth is you need to borrow less if you want to get out of debt crisis. Euroland still does not know how to do this. Yesterday the EFSF decided to withdraw a bond issue because it did not like the look of the market reaction.


Couldn't have put it any better!

Has someone invoked the traditional Chinese Curse ..........?

May you live in interesting times.

witchfinder, with regard post #1. Maybe I can help. Let's start with an article of my own and take it from there shall we?

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The Battle for UK Independence from EU
« on: July 30, 2011, 10:55:59 »




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Saturday, 30 July 2011

Defending the UK right to Self Rule from the EU

By Phoenix One UK


Who should hold the ultimate power?

The British people elected its government to govern the UK not surrender powers - in whole or part - to any foreign power, including the EU. No government possessed a mandate from the people to relinquish any part of United Kingdom's sovereignty, a sovereign nation that belongs to its people not any government.

Parliament derives its power from the people. Not even the Crown can dissolve Parliament without the consent of Parliament, and Parliament consists of elected representatives of the people. When Parliament consents to the Crown dissolving Parliament it is actually the people consenting to dissolving Parliament. Note Parliament is dissolved prior to every General Election.

Throughout many debates, and not just on the European Union, the people have very clearly expressed their non-confidence in the Government and Politicians elected into office. The reasons for such non-confidence are numerous, but one stands above all. Members of Parliament had exceeded their authority and abused the powers entrusted them by the people.

Depriving the people of referendum on European Union is a breach of Government mandate. The act did not possess the consent of the people with all treaties signed with European Union by government without such a referendum or mandate lacking legitimacy. Europhiles often respond here stating the British people gave such a mandate in the 1975 referendum. Not so. Nowhere within the 1975 referendum was it even implied that the United Kingdom would surrender any political powers to the European Union. The European & Community Act 1972 enforces that point. The referendum was on trade with Europe not political rule from Europe either in whole or part.

Parliament is the voice of the people where candidates campaigned to be the voice their constituents. Members of Parliament were elected for that purpose, to be their voice. No MP possessed a mandate to abuse elected powers and deprive the people of that voice. Visit ReferendumList.com for entire list of MP's who voted to deprive the British people of their voice on Lisbon Treaty for a perfect example.

No government hold the ultimate power in United Kingdom. That changed the moment the people acquired the right to vote. A right - that of itself - was fought and paid for in blood. Every MP without exception derives their power from the people, including the Prime Minister. Not one would be where they are without a mandate from the people. Parliament is more than just a building, it is the voice of the people. If the people are being deprived of their voice, it is because they allowed elected MPs to deprive them of that voice. Consider the 2010 General Election. When in the UK's entire history have the leaders of major parties ever consented to debating on national television before the entire nation? Why did they do this? They needed your vote. They were desperate for your vote. They wanted to govern. They wanted your mandate to dictate policy. The political parties are at your mercy and have been for a long time. You, the people, decide the ultimate fate and direction of the country. You, the people, hold the ultimate power.

What of EU Parliament? The people elect Members of the European Parliament (MEP), but MEP's possess few powers. Even here one must also remember the EU comprises of 27 member states, and all have MEPs in EU Parliament. The UK can be outvoted in EU Parliament and had been more than once, and that is on the few issues were the UK does have a say. The real power rest with EU Commissionaires, not one of which are elected by the people. Here, the ultimate power rests with Commissionaires.

Which Parliament would you prefer? One where the ultimate power rests with the people, or one where the ultimate powers rest with the Commissionaires. Only the first qualifies as a democracy.

The people possess the power to change the policies of UK governments (often referred to as u-turns). How often have you seen political parties and/or governments do just that in response to the people standing up to be heard? Try doing that with the EU Parliament.

Note the EU is a national problem, which does not necessarily mean you have to vote for an anti-EU party to be rid of it. There are now over 100 MP's (cross-party) in Parliament that are pushing to give the British people an EU in/out referendum. If you have loyalties to particular party, then at least vote for a candidate that supports giving the British people an EU in/out referendum.


Winston Churchill

On occasion Europhiles refer to Winston Churchill stating he wanted Britain in a united Europe, implying he would approve of Britain's involvement with EU. A Europhile did the same within the UK debating forum a few days ago, but are they right?

Churchill's view is crystal clear in one of his most famous quotations:

"We have our own dream and our own task. We are with Europe but not of it. We are linked but not combined. We are interested and associated but not absorbed. And should European statesmen address us in the words that were used of old, 'Shall I speak for thee to the King or the Captain of the Host?', we should reply with the Shunamite woman 'Nay sir, for we dwell among our own people'".

Our relationship with the EU betrays those very words. Winston Churchill would not approve of our current relationship with European Union, and his very words clearly show he too would have been a Eurosceptic and opposed to EU.


Open borders, the euro and austerity

The EU's open border policy has played havoc and social problems for a number of EU member states, many of which made headlines in Germany, France, Italy, Ireland and UK. Rather than go into the social ramifications of the EU's open border policy, I will refer you to an article entitled "The Folly of Mass Immigration" at www.democracymovement,org.uk, which is the best analysis of the problem that I have ever read on the subject.

The Euro had been destined for failure since its inception. It is a 17 nation currency strait-jacket that lacks any flexibility to adjust for real economic movements. It has stripped away the independence of sovereign nations within by eliminating any form of monetary policy, meaning that each Eurozone member state has no ability to shift its money supply due to economic events, which the Eurozone crisis clearly demonstrates to extent of seeing an increase in populism, nationalism, and radicalism across the Eurozone.

Note if Greece leaves the Euro and restructures its debts, the German banks would be in deep trouble. Hence, the German banks prefer their government keep Greece on life support. Should Greece leave the Eurozone, the German government could suddenly find itself propping up its own banks, and the same can be said for France.

The euro crisis has not gone away, and attempts to halt the contagion to Spain and Italy has not been halted. Both remain at risk. Europhiles have fuelled activities to centre on national governments and even the credit rating agencies. This phase is called the blame game. Yet we see Spanish protesters marching on Brussels gathering citizens from other member states en-route. There was yet another site in Dublin Ireland that clearly display Irish protesters will be joining the Spanish column outside the EU Brussels Parliament on 15 October. For all those Europhiles who continue to push the argument that these protesters are protesting against their own governments not EU, the obvious question is, why are they marching on Brussels?


The UK does not need the EU

The UK does not need the EU for trade or anything else and never did. The UK possesses one of the most externalised economies in the world. Britain is the world's second biggest global investor and trades on a global scale.

The Europhiles tell us that our biggest trading partner is the EU, and our largest export market within the EU is Ireland. Consider this. The UK possesses a population of over 60 million people where Ireland possesses a population of 4.4 million people. This, we are told, is our largest export market in EU. Hence, if you accept that argument you must also accept Ireland is in deep financial trouble to extent of being bailed out by the ECB and IMF. Ireland's credit rating is JUNK, Further, severe austerity measures had been imposed on Ireland with the Irish people struggling to survive. Cuts have been made across the board, and they possess little money to spend. What does this tell you about our so-called largest export market in the EU?

The UK possesses one of the largest economies in the world. It is in the G8, the OECD, the WTO, the World Bank, and the UN Security Council. We are leading members of NATO and of the Commonwealth, which of itself comprises of 54 members. The UK possesses a unique and powerful transatlantic bond. None of which required the UK to surrender its sovereignty in whole or part. The idea that without the EU the UK would be isolated is not just wrong. It is absurd.

The fear mongering by Europhiles that trade would suffer if the UK withdrew from the EU is not only false, it too is absurd. The EU is also a signatory to the WTO, and it would be illegal under WTO trade law to hinder or cease trade with any nation regardless of whether it were a member state of the EU or not. The EU also relies heavily on WTO trade law to settle trade disputes, and the idea that UK withdraw from EU would affect trade is totally absurd and without merit. Add to this that the UK imports far more from the EU than it exports, and the absurdity of such a claim becomes even more self apparent.


Closing

The UK possesses many problems, as does any nation on the planet. Relinquishing control to any foreign power, especially the EU, would not resolve such problems, they would add to them.

As long as we retain control of our own voice in Parliament we have a say in the fate and direction of our country, the UK. Surrender political control to the EU, and you also surrender your voice.

Republic Saviour wrote:Looks like Great Britain is escaping the carnage in Europe by not taking the Euro as the national currency.
Is there any concern in Britain that you are not part of the discussion of saving southern Europe from default, leaving it to Germany and France to save everything?

Why is Britain not part of the discussion? You are in the European Union.
Is there any discussion in Britain that you should have some say in the situation?
Or do you have input, and we do not hear about it here in the U.S.A.?
If maninland Europe has an economic collapse, it will effect Britain tremendously, or are you planning to buy everything up twenty five pence to the Euro?
I see your stock market does get banged around by the problems all over Europe, so I cannot imagine not having input into the fray.
Any thoughts?

I assume from you post you are in USA and American. First lt me say Hi, and I ha visited a couple of USA debating forums a few months ago, and showed them something many were not even aware of. Let us start with the $16 trillion the USA government used to bail out not only American banks, but European Governments and their banks, and I include German banks.

Given the $US is not looking that healthy either, not to mention a couple of the USA financial industries going bust, including MF Global, would you agree that the USA has some serious problems of its own?

Welcome to Phoenix One, still the Champion of brevity.

oftenwrong wrote:Welcome to Phoenix One, still the Champion of brevity.

Wrong often wrong, wrong (I missed saying that ).

Missed you OW, and I was talking about you with Curious Cdn a few months ago. Don't concern yourself, it was all good.

How nice to see Phoenix One UK

Another familiar poster from the recent past, and someone with views on Euorope which are directly opposed to mine - which evens things up a little.

Welcome - and I hope you stay and enjoy

The European Coal & Steel Community (ECSC) was founded in 1950 and implemented by six nations in 1951, one of its key principles was "super-nationalism", a shared economy.

Some of the principles of the ECSC are written within the treaty and include the following:

It would mark the birth of a united Europe

It would, starting with coal and steel, revatilise the whole of Europe by similar communal agreements.

It would create a single market accross the whole of Europe

It would create the worlds first super-national institution

The ECSC was merged with, and became part of the EEC on 1st July 1967, and the United Kingdom joined the EEC on 1st January 1973.

Therefore the United Kingdom joined a super-national organisation with such principles as working towards a united Europe, the EEC in 1973 was much more than merely a trading block, and British politicians at the time including Sir Edward Heath knew this.

With regard to Sir Winston Churchill, please find below here some of the text from his famous speech, the speech was given at the university of Zurich on the 9th September 1946.

"We must build a kind of United States of Europe. In this way only will hundreds of millions of toilers be able to regain the simple joys and hopes which make life worth living"

The great man had changed his mind about a united Europe, the text quoted by Phoenix One UK was from a speech made 16 years earlier, long before the outbreak of World War Two.

One aspect of the European Union which somehow always seems to be overlooked is the fact that the EU is a collective, and the UK is part of that collective, it is not run and controlled by Germany.

The EU is a multi stranded democracy, part run by individual states, part run by the European Parliament, partly run by the Council of Ministers, and the European Commission, the European Court and just like any nation it is also partly run by civil servants.

This is where Frances Fox comes in, I hope she can post the item on Sir Monty Finniston being TOLD by EU to CUT PRODUCTION AND RAISE PRICES so that the eu nations could compete with us.

Puts the lie to the "collective" idea

It may be unkind to yet again make reference to "Black Wednesday" in 1992 which brutally ejected Britain from the ERM, but chronologically it was four years before our Business recovered from that debacle. How long is the wait going to be this time?

in 1992, we had the last vestiges of our industry, what heve we got now, to whittle down over the rough time ahead?

MacDonalds, Pizza Express and Starbucks. The X-factor, nail-bars, tanning salons, discount vouchers, buy-one-get-one-free, download bootleg tunes to your mobile phone, MEP on self-declared expenses, rip-off airlines .................

THAT's what we've got now.

Good 'ere, innit?

EEEEEEYUP!


speshully if yere a , er, (cant call them bankerss they took out an injunction) AH!! how about W (I here a Mod sharpening a pencil! )

An extract from an article by Douglas Alexander, Shadow Foreign Secretary:-

"To cut ourselves off from a market of 500 million customers wouldn't just imply we had lost faith in Europe, it would suggest we had lost faith in the ability of British companies to outcompete their European rivals.

High-value services and high-skill manufacturing need to be underwritten by common standards and competition laws. In an era of billion-person countries and trillion-pound economies, we need to find ways to amplify our voice. We are most likely to be heard when the Chinese negotiate with a £10 trillion EU, not a £1.5 trillion Britain.

And where we have shared goals, from climate change negotiations to tackling cross-border crime and human trafficking, working together in Europe makes global agreements more likely."

For the full article:-
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/nov/13/labour-mature-patriotism-over-europe

Not sure Ivan, £1.5 trillion to us sounds like a better deal than £10 trillion shared between 27 countries each wanting the biggest slice. You really need to read a different rag on occasion.

"To cut ourselves off from a market of 500 million customers wouldn't just imply we had lost faith in Europe, it would suggest we had lost faith in the ability of British companies to outcompete their European rivals.

Railway carriage building contract goes to Germany
Contract to produce British Military Uniforms goes to Germany, who promptly out source it to Turkey. Yes we ARE outperforming Europeans are we not?

The BRITISH Dewhirst company could have outsourced this work to their factories in Tunisia - they make M&S garments, but I s'pose that would have been against EU law!

Speaking of Tunisia, me and (the boss) are going there for Christmas. Useless info I know.

My passport has several Tunisian entry stamps, it's a great place to holiday.
However the last time I went through immigration at Habib Bourgiba, an unsmiling Adouanière asked sourly, "Have you got a woman here?"

At my great age, that's rather flattering.

Cameron's EU Worries Continue

(techdigest.tv)

" Hello Santa - can you add a couple of gallons more Grecian 2000 to that list I sent...?"

I do hope we haven't sent a boy to do a Man's job.

oftenwrong wrote:I do hope we haven't sent a boy to do a Man's job.

What we need is a Churchill, a Tory i know. What we are sending is a paper tiger, plus the fact that this paper tiger has no balls. A Tory MP says Cameron should be a bull dog, i am afraid that all Cameron can be is a poodle, all yap, no bite.

all yap, no bite

AAAAW!!!!

Puir wee manny


Dae "soundbites" no' count noo???

I think the eu is needed at present. It is a bridge between peoples and politics. Bridges connect things - to seek the destruction of the eu is bridge raising!

I think until all countries have their economies on track again the eu should remain doing what it is doing - it is dealing with a problem, slowly, badly... it acknowledges there is a problem and has the top people working on it for the sake of the people.

There is nothing what so ever wrong with the idea of a joint currency, infact most people who live in the Eurozone still believe it is a good idea, even our closest neighbours "Ireland" still has a majority in favour of the single currency, its only the British who have this crazy idea that 27 nations, all side by side, all doing trade together, would be better off with 27 different currencies.

The single and most crucial objective at present is to bring stability to the Eurozone, this will benefit the UK and it will benefit the rest of the world, but our Primeminister is chiefly concerned with self interest, he speaks not of working together for the common good, but only of British interests.

The Conservative party is living in some kind of economic cloud cuckoo land, not only have they got it completely wrong on the British economy, but many of them now actualy believe that opportunism is far more important than bringing financial stability to Europe.

Many Conservatives believe that now is the time to negotiate opting out of various social protection laws in return for supporting the saving of the Eurozone, this is what is known as "blackmail" and these issues have nothing to do with the real issue at hand.

What David Cameron risks is "no agreement" been reached, this in turn will frighten the markets and will not help the Eurozone, it will not help the EU or the UK and it will not help the rest of the world, more to the point it will not help the ordinary hard working Brit, or Frenchman or American for that matter.

When will the Conservative party realise that the UK is not insulated, we are not some sort of little old man locked away in his little cottage, listening to "land of hope and glory" on the wind up gramaphone, hoping that the real world will go away and leave us to dwell in the past, and in the dream world.

My grandfather understood perfectly. "Wogs begin at Calais".

infact most people who live in the Eurozone still believe it is a good idea, even our closest neighbours "Ireland" still has a majority in favour

When we were in Donegal - Eire a few years back now, no-one had a good word for the €. In Fact, all from Bar owners to car mechanics wanted the punt back. There were screams from Dresden at the same time of people saying their staple vegs. had gone through the roof!

The British Government HAS to "stick up" for UK!! there can be no doubt about this! All of the decisions made by the EU courts are made "in the intrests and good of the EU community AS A WHOLE" and it is time someone stood on our patch - just cannot see Came HIM cutting the mustard!


Poland has our Coal and Shipbuilding

Well you know the list as well as anyone, this was ALL done for the GOOD OF TE EU! How was it so good for us?

oftenwrong wrote:My grandfather understood perfectly. "Wogs begin at Calais".

I think this board could well do without the use of words like 'Calais'...

Cameron's European Discussions - The Verdict is In...

(guardian.co.uk)
" Hello Mr Murdoch - has the editorial I sent saying how well I did tomorrow arrived yet...?"

EuroBarometer - is a series of surveys carried out on behalf of the EU to gauge public opinion on a whole range of matters right accross Europe.

The EuroBarometer survey in Ireland on the subject of EU membership and the Euro was carried out during May 2010.

66% of Irish people believe that the EU and EU institutions are a good thing

http://www.socialjustice.ie/sites/default/files/file/EU/2010%20Eurobarometer%2073%20Spring%202010%20First%20Results.pdf

Watch on https://youtu.be/2N5aFN_MJNk

66% out lf 10 people is typical and(strange) statistic thrown up by those that would bend at the knee to anything european.

Re: The European Union and Great Britain

David has cut the umbilical. Who'd'a thought it?

66% of quoted statistics are made up on the spot.

When you have lost the argument - your last resort is to question the facts and even call into question "official" figures or properly conducted surveys.

Got anything more recent than May last year?