Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

by blueturando Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:10 pm

First topic message reminder :

Do Labour go hunting for the electorate who voted Blair into power 3 times and risk the wrath of the Unions, or side with the core Labour party supporters and the Unions at a risk of being unable to get back the voters who deserted them in the last election?

The scale of the rift between Labour and the unions over Ed Miliband's decision to embrace austerity measures has been made clear as a senior leader warned of long-term implications over the "most serious mistake" the party could have made.
Unions affiliated to Labour have been fuming since shadow chancellor Ed Balls told a conference at the weekend that he would not reverse the Government's planned 1% public sector pay cap, which affects millions of workers.
Unite leader Len McCluskey warned that Mr Miliband was setting Labour on course for electoral "disaster" and undermining his own leadership by accepting Government cuts and the cap on public sector pay.
Mr Miliband hit back against his union critics, insisting that Mr McCluskey was "wrong" to attack his decision to embrace austerity measures.
It has emerged that the leader of the GMB has written to the union's senior officials saying that the speech by Ed Balls may have a "profound impact" on its relationship with the Labour Party.
General secretary Paul Kenny said in the message: "I have spoken to Ed Milliband and Ed Balls to ensure they were aware of how wrong I think the policy they are now following is. It is now time for careful consideration and thought before the wider discussions begin on the long-term implications this new stance by the party has on GMB affiliation.
"It will be a fundamental requirement that the CEC (executive) and Congress determine our way forward after proper debate. I will update everyone as events unfold but I have to say this is the most serious mistake they could have made and the Tories must be rubbing their hands with glee." The GMB declined to comment on the message but confirmed it had been sent.
Mr McCluskey said in an article in The Guardian: "Ed Balls' sudden weekend embrace of austerity and the Government's public sector pay squeeze represents a victory for discredited Blairism at the expense of the party's core supporters. It also challenges the whole course Ed Miliband has set for the party, and perhaps his leadership itself."
Mr Miliband responded in a statement: "Len McCluskey is entitled to his views but he is wrong. I am changing the Labour Party so we can deliver fairness even when there is less money around and that requires tough decisions."

by astra Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:36 pm

in a post not long ago and was pulled up on the subject.

Maybe Maybe, but that was not in THIS thread.

Careful, or we are leading up to the blood letting that Bobby and I had elsewhere also!

Edit.

This IS a democracy is it not? Still? and topics should be able to be discussed without someone throwing in the race card.

It would be like me decrying the Royal Enfield Motorcycle that is in the shops NOW. If I said the build quality was not up to scratch and the thing shakes itself to bits, then someone could say I'm racist because the motorbike is made in India!

Nothing in here by the people who disagree like the statement -

"I disagree with what you say, but I defend to death your right to say it! Evil or Very Mad

by oftenwrong Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:04 pm

astra wrote:
in a post not long ago and was pulled up on the subject.

Maybe Maybe, but that was not in THIS thread.

Careful, or we are leading up to the blood letting that Bobby and I had elsewhere also!

Edit.

This IS a democracy is it not? Still? and topics should be able to be discussed without someone throwing in the race card.

It would be like me decrying the Royal Enfield Motorcycle that is in the shops NOW. If I said the build quality was not up to scratch and the thing shakes itself to bits, then someone could say I'm racist because the motorbike is made in India!

Nothing in here by the people who disagree like the statement -

"I disagree with what you say, but I defend to death your right to say it!

Alas, the modern PC can make fools of us all. The original dilemma (in rhetoric) was a device by which you presented your opponent with two alternatives; it didn’t matter which one he chose to respond to — either way he lost the argument. When you did this to your opponent you were said to present two horns to him, as of a bull, on either of which he might be impaled. As the scholar Nicholas Udall said in a translation of a work by Erasmus in 1548, it didn’t matter to which of the two points a person made a direct answer, either way he would run on to the sharp point of the horn.

The current version of the Royal Enfield Motorcycle is a development of the 1950s "Bullet" 350 c.c. single-cylinder, whose plans were bought by an Indian company when Japanese motocycles had wiped everything else off the map. The Bullet in its turn had been developed from a machine specifically designed by the British War Department for use by the Military. It had girder forks and NO rear suspension. God Save the despatch-riders who were issued with such a boneshaker, but don't blame it on the Indians.

by astra Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:38 pm

Aye indeed

The new versions still apparently hold to the old directive, that it can be pulled to bits by a couple of spanners, a hammer and a screwdriver. Much like the very successful BMW Boxer (R series) which also can be repaired in the ditch.

by trevorw2539 Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:56 pm

OW quote
God Save the despatch-riders who were issued with such a boneshaker, but don't blame it on the Indians..

It is well known that the despatch riders had excellent sight. Apparently it came from trying to spot all the bumps in the road/ground ahead.
After a bad days riding they were recognisable by the fact they always stood for lunch Smile

My first bike was a 125 BSA Bantam, rigid rear frame. Pride and joy until the engine 'blew up' at 75mph going down a steepish hill. Embarassed

.

by Mel Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:38 am

Hello astra,

Quote "Maybe Maybe, but that was not in THIS thread.

Careful, or we are leading up to the blood letting that Bobby and I had elsewhere also!

Edit.

This IS a democracy is it not? Still? and topics should be able to be discussed without someone throwing in the race card."

"Democrocy" is one thing, racism is another.
Racism displayed on ANY thread is not wanted, is illegal and is flouting the rules laid down by the forum.

Have you still retained your bike, or has your painful illness forced you to give up riding? My old Gold Star Clubman turned up for sale recently. I sold it for £500 years ago and it went for £15k would you believe?

by oftenwrong Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:36 am

From Bantam to Gold Star in just two postings! If you don't behave, I'll tell people all about my Triumph Speed twin, and its vivivivivi-bration.

by bobby Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:04 am

I believe the Royal Enfield when sold off to India lost the Right to call themselves "Royal" and are now just Enfield.

Years ago, I did a stint as a London Bus Driver, and had a Conductor who happened to be from Barbados, we called him Cass due to a striking resemblance to Cassius Clay. Cass and I became firm friends and not only worked together, but would spend time as families in each others company. My Dad at that time was also a Bus Driver and was at the same Garage. One clippie (conductress) once said to my Dad that we (Cass and I) are like brothers, my dad replied “yes Bob was born during the Day, and Cass was born at night”. Cass was as proud of his heritage as I was of mine, yet we would constantly make jokes about his blackness and my whiteness. Today what we said to each other would be deemed racist by the current PC do gooder brigade.
Cass once made a joke re slavery, the joke was and I quote “ White people must like blacks, why else would they all want to own one”. I repeated a slightly different version on another thread saying “ I’m not a racist but, I like black people and think every white man should own one” then finished with “I’m only joking” before some Pratt took me seriously and called me a racist, well could you Adam and Eve it we had one such person, and I was duly called a racist, and homophobic, I had a pop at the miscreant and was then taken to task by the Cutting Edge Moderation Machine for being a tad rude, yet bugger all was said to the miscreant that called me a racist and homophobic.
I’ve never moaned or complained about anyone in my years on MSN and Cutting Edge, but it now seems to me, we are being treated like children and are being taken to task for any slight of the rules be they real or just immagined, no matter how small, not only that, but it seems to me that moderation is also being used to win a disagreement.
If we are to have all of this moderation, then let it be fair across the board, but all I am now seeing almost on every thread is a reference to moderation. Please lets get back to the real world, some of us where born before all of this PC crap was inflicted on us, so will take a bit longer to adapt, so don’t make our time of learning, an effing nightmare.

by sickchip Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:37 pm

bobby,

saying “ I’m not a racist but, I like black people and think every white man should own one”

All very well....except that isn't what you said - is it? And that was not the tone of the post you're discussing. Stop looking for a way out with the pathetic anecdote and sad excuse posted above. And stop telling lies about what you posted in order to make me out to be the villain of the piece and imply I'm some kind of faffy pc do-gooder.

I was prepared to forget this - it was over; but you insist on dragging it up again and calliing me a prat into the bargain.

Grow up and stop behaving like a petulant child. You really are a confused, and sorry excuse. Rolling Eyes

by sickchip Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:48 pm

Sorry that this thread has went off topic......it seems some people prefer to indulge their own 'pet' quibbles, and obsessions rather than discuss the topic at hand.

Or maybe they've just got a short attention span/poor concentration skills/poor comprehension skills.

Effing pathetic!

by blueturando Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:32 pm

I’ve never moaned or complained about anyone in my years on MSN and Cutting Edge, but it now seems to me, we are being treated like children and are being taken to task for any slight of the rules be they real or just immagined, no matter how small, not only that, but it seems to me that moderation is also being used to win a disagreement.
If we are to have all of this moderation, then let it be fair across the board, but all I am now seeing almost on every thread is a reference to moderation. Please lets get back to the real world, some of us where born before all of this PC crap was inflicted on us, so will take a bit longer to adapt, so don’t make our time of learning, an effing nightmare.

Great post Bobby and I am in total agreement

by blueturando Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:36 pm

Personally....for what its worth. I think the true meaning of Racism and what Racism is was lost long ago when the PC brigade decided to use this term to hit anyone they didn't like with a stick

by bobby Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:26 pm

sick chip said: All very well….except that isn’t what you said - is it.

You are of course correct sick chip, what I said ended with “its only a joke” or words to that effect. So don’t read half a post then make your spurious accusations.

sick chip said: I was prepared to forget this - it was over.

Well that’s bloody big of you, but for me it isn’t over, not until you find a streak of honesty, read posts as are written and apologise for very wrongly calling me a racist and homophobic, by the way I can also remember what it was I said about gays, can you, or will you make something up yet again.
How different something sounds when key parts of a statement are omitted, and says much about the person who does in fact have to omit parts of someone else’s posting to exacerbate a lie than to simply tell the truth.

sick chip said: Grow up and stop behaving like a petulant child. You really are a confused, and sorry excuse.

And that would be an excuse for what sick chip.

sick chip said: Or maybe they've just got a short attention span/poor concentration skills/poor comprehension skills.

And who is this they. If you are refering to me, then have the honesty to say, don’t try to make a personal attack ambiguous, say something and stand by it.

It seems that you are very quick to cry when someone (myself in this case) calls you something you dont like, yet are very quick to do the same yourself. You are no more than an Hypocrite.

by bobby Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:27 pm

Bluey, thanks for your support in your last post. I must say I much prefer to be your ally than opponant.

by sickchip Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:53 pm

Bobby in a whiny voice - 'Please sir, I can't be racist because I once knew a black man and we were friends'. Why don't you just say some of them are ok, bobby?

Why make a point of having a friend that is black? Makes no difference if your friend's black or white.

Or maybe you were pointing out that a bit of piss taking and banter about ethnicity is all just good clean, harmless fun?

Remember the tv show 'Love Thy Neighbour'........that was a good laugh eh, bobby. And what about 'Chalky' n Jim Davidson? That bloody PC brigade have got no sense of humour eh?

by sickchip Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:16 pm

Anyway.....moving on!

I find Ed Miliband is becoming gradually more impressive, and stronger. I wasn't too enamoured initially, but he is steadily emerging as a force to be reckoned with. I hope he resists the Blarites influence.

The sticking points may be policies when they emerge - there are no quick fix solutions so people need to be pragmatic and recognise times will still be tough for a while. But, one thing is for sure, they'll be a hell of a lot better than this wretched, incompetent, and out of touch yellow bellied tory coalition.

by bobby Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:23 pm

Again sickchip, you are not reading what is written, you are simply making it up as you go along.

You added : Bobby in a whiny voice - 'Please sir, I can't be racist because I once knew a black man and we were friends'. Why don't you just say some of them are ok, bobby?

And doesnt that crass remark just go to prove my point.proof you are nothing but a keyboard Gangster. And you now profess to know what my voice is like, effing clever that?

sickchip said: Why make a point of having a friend that is black? Makes no difference if your friend's black or white.

The point is sickchip, that the gist of the joke was made by a Barbaden, who is black and not racist by any stretch of the immagination, not even yours. Why is it in your biggoted mind racist if a black makes a white joke or a white makes a black joke. We are not all of your overly sensative disposition, some of us are quite normal, and like normal things whilst living in the real world, like a bit of humour, something you obviously have very little of, Too busy worying about why I earn loads more money than my employees.

by oftenwrong Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:17 pm

Does anybody remember why the MSN thread was closed down? Something to do with people slagging each other off anonymously, wasn't it?

How brave of them.

by tlttf Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:26 pm

Yes OW, in this case it's happened because somebody can't read clearly before jumping in with both feet!

Anyway, I still think the labour party binned it's morals around 1964, it simply took them a long time to realise it. When Smith died, their last hope of belonging to the working man/woman (born in this country for the purists) went with him.

by sickchip Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:54 pm

bobby,

Too busy worying about why I earn loads more money than my employees.

lol...yeah bobby, I like, lie awake at night like, thinking about it. It plays on my mind constantly. What a first rate prat you are. Rolling Eyes

by tlttf Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:58 pm

Let it go sickie?

by sickchip Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:00 pm

...and bobby,

It is you who has 'made things up'. You've blatantly lied above about the nature of what you posted on the thread (now conveniently disappeared) that led to me commenting you for your 'old fashioned' 1970's style politically incorrect racism.

You are a liar, bobby.....plain and simple.

by sickchip Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:11 pm

bobby,

And who is this they. If you are refering to me, then have the honesty to say, don’t try to make a personal attack ambiguous, say something and stand by it.

It seems that you are very quick to cry when someone (myself in this case) calls you something you dont like, yet are very quick to do the same yourself. You are no more than an Hypocrite.

- your words.

- and again another sample. You wouldn't let it lie.

Cass once made a joke re slavery, the joke was and I quote “ White people must like blacks, why else would they all want to own one”. I repeated a slightly different version on another thread saying “ I’m not a racist but, I like black people and think every white man should own one” then finished with “I’m only joking” before some Pratt took me seriously and called me a racist, well could you Adam and Eve it we had one such person, and I was duly called a racist, and homophobic, I had a pop at the miscreant and was then taken to task by the Cutting Edge Moderation Machine for being a tad rude, yet bugger all was said to the miscreant that called me a racist and homophobic.

Well who are you referring to? Me?

I repeat your words back to you, bobby:

If you are refering to me, then have the honesty to say, don’t try to make a personal attack ambiguous, say something and stand by it.

It seems that you are very quick to cry when someone (myself in this case) calls you something you dont like, yet are very quick to do the same yourself. You are no more than an hypocrite, bobby.

by sickchip Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:14 pm

tlttf,

I had forgot about it, land. But then bobby decided to come on this thread, I started, calling me a prat and demanding I be moderated. What's a guy to do?

Seems some kind of baiting is going on to me.

by tlttf Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:30 pm

Don't know if you've noticed sickie, but I come in for a lot of stick continuously, fortunately the majority of it comes from divvies and simply rolls over my head. Surely you know better than to take it personally. Personally I like bobby (disagree with his politics) but he does try and say what he thinks, though not always in an acceptable way (who am I to patronise). Still I'd rather disagree with somebody that believes what they type rather than somebody that falls back onto political correction as an argument. Just let it go mate.

by oftenwrong Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:15 pm

I, I wish you could swim
Like the dolphins
Like dolphins can swim

Though nothing, nothing will keep us together
We can beat them, forever and ever
Oh, we can be heroes just for one day

I, I will be King
And you, you will be Queen
Though nothing will drive them away
We can be heroes just for one day
We can be us just for one day

David Bowie

by betty.noire Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:31 pm

Probably best for Labour to keep on making vauge emotive statements to frighten the herd Rolling Eyes

by blueturando Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:43 am

tlttf wrote:
Not sure if they should follow the Blairites or "Potty Brown" as he has been so aptly described. For a novel idea why not support the working man/woman indigenous to these Isles rather than ship in ready made followers from abroad.

Adele wrote
You utter racist!

.

I guess Brown must also have been racist with his British jobs for British people quote then?

by tlttf Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:14 pm

I guess Miliband agrees with me. Does that make him a racist?

Ed Miliband: Labour was wrong on immigration
'Mistakes': Ed Miliband says his party has failed to address 'legitimate concerns'

Joe Murphy

21 June 2012

Ed Miliband will try to recast Labour’s approach to immigration tomorrow in a major speech admitting that the party “made mistakes” in the past.

The Labour leader will shift the focus from tougher border controls to looking at why employers choose foreign workers and the impact of large-scale immigration on the lives and jobs of families who already live here.

Mr Miliband will say Labour has failed in the past to address “legitimate concerns” about jobs and housing — an admission that meets concerns raised on the doorsteps by voters in East London at the last general election.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/ed-miliband-labour-was-wrong-on-immigration-7872774.html

Weird world innit?

by astra Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:53 pm

Nissan, jobs, over 2,000 applicants.

2 youths I know went for interview, passed all tests with flyhing colours, went for 2nd interview, 25 applicants now left in the running - for this particular task! They passed that and at the 3rd interview, 3 were in the waiting room.

The job went to a Polish chap.

Either Nissan or the Agency get paid from the Government to employ these people. British kids wotiz born here - no matter of clour or 'ethnicity' do not stand a chance

This could NOT happen in Germany!! FULL STOP

Now tell me I am racist! Rolling Eyes

by Mel Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:33 pm

Nothing to do with you being a racist astra which you obviously are not. What you have said highlights the fact that cheap labour wins every time with employers. It is encouraged by Tory policy as usual under Tory rule unemployment rises and it is plain to see why, as it benefits the employers. Not necessarily the small employers but the very rich ones.

by sickchip Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:46 pm

astra,

I've worked at Nissan several times over the years as a sub-contractor for a company responsible for the installation of the production lines, cells, robots, etc.

This use to be a regular-ish job for me and several colleagues every one or two years, and was a decent source of income. This had went on basically since Nissan was built (also worked on that).

Now, several years back the company we regularly done this work for phoned us all up as usual when the work was due to be done - but this time offered us slightly reduced rates to what we'd worked for previously. It was awkward but some of us begrudgingly decided to still take the work. However, we were then called to say we weren't needed. We subsequently found out they'd employed east europeans via an agency to do the work - they were paying them approx half what we were usually paid. A good deal for the company you would think - until the job didn't come in on time, Nissan were unhappy with the quality of much of the work, and the commissioning team found many wiring faults.

The same thing happened at Landrover when a majority of British subcontractors were replaced with east europeans at almost half the rate.

by astra Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:30 pm

Nissan/Renault seem to use the Sunderland Plant as a nursery for their Slovenian Operation, in NOVO MESTO. The "agency" you mentioned ONLY takes FOREIGN NATIONALS on it's books

Who once said - you couldn't make it up!

Remember please that this happened under Blair and Brown also, so, tis nowt new!

It is refreshing to find bullying management finding the hard way that you only get what you pay for!

by oftenwrong Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:14 pm

City spivs will always say that you can't beat the market. Wherever there is a requirement for something, buyers and sellers will each be looking for a good deal. Almost everything we have bought in the UK for the past ten years is marked "Made in China" because their population were prepared to work for wages that would be described as below-poverty in this Country.

Our Labour market is directly affected, and there will always be someone who pitches their price lower than the opposition in order to secure the work. Who would willingly pay one class of worker more than another to do the same job, because of the place they were born?

by sickchip Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:55 pm

A lower standard of living.

I guess that's what a free market global economy has to offer workers in the UK and other developed nations.

Get used to it.

That's the way the cookie crumbles! That's the way the whole thing ends!

by tlttf Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:03 pm

A councillor puts works out to tender and has a meeting with 3 of the subbies.
The 1st one offers to do the work for £100,000. The 2nd offers to do the work for £150,00 and the 3rd offers to do the work for £500,000. The councillor asks the 3rd person how he arrived at his figure and was told £200,000 for you, £200,000 for me and we give the work to the first bloke. Now that is economics within the public sector.

by oftenwrong Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:27 pm

I read of a very similar arrangement when Noah was building that Ark thing.

by Stox 16 Sat Jun 23, 2012 3:43 am

tlttf wrote:A councillor puts works out to tender and has a meeting with 3 of the subbies.
The 1st one offers to do the work for £100,000. The 2nd offers to do the work for £150,00 and the 3rd offers to do the work for £500,000. The councillor asks the 3rd person how he arrived at his figure and was told £200,000 for you, £200,000 for me and we give the work to the first bloke. Now that is economics within the public sector.

tittf its quite clear you have never been a councillor with this post. I have and believe me or not it does not work like that at all. I know the right wing have a one track mind on public sector contracts but you really should find out what its like in the real world of council before you post these things. its just quite amazing to think you could even post such rot. just one small wee point..... if a tender is put in by a councillor he has to declare a interest and then leave the meeting. End of Story. if he does not... it can and does lead to jail.... I also saw a Tory councillor try not to declare a interest. he is now in Suffolk open prison that is less than 10 miles from my front door. The local press check every local tender and know what is what today. you have no hope today.

by Stox 16 Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:01 am

I can't see that Labour currently has any concrete policies to speak of, but then they don't really need to at this time. Cameron and co are making and complete hash of it and very easy for Miliband [/quote]

That is 100% right. as it not the role of the main opposition party to have a wide range of policies with two years to go. in fact the Tory party had no real policies of note in the last government till the last 9 months of that government. the role of opposition is one of called the government to account. not to have policies that will be totally out of date by the GE. That would be so stupid its unreal.

by tlttf Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:51 am

Stox 16 wrote:
tlttf wrote:A councillor puts works out to tender and has a meeting with 3 of the subbies.
The 1st one offers to do the work for £100,000. The 2nd offers to do the work for £150,00 and the 3rd offers to do the work for £500,000. The councillor asks the 3rd person how he arrived at his figure and was told £200,000 for you, £200,000 for me and we give the work to the first bloke. Now that is economics within the public sector.

tittf its quite clear you have never been a councillor with this post. I have and believe me or not it does not work like that at all. I know the right wing have a one track mind on public sector contracts but you really should find out what its like in the real world of council before you post these things. its just quite amazing to think you could even post such rot. just one small wee point..... if a tender is put in by a councillor he has to declare a interest and then leave the meeting. End of Story. if he does not... it can and does lead to jail.... I also saw a Tory councillor try not to declare a interest. he is now in Suffolk open prison that is less than 10 miles from my front door. The local press check every local tender and know what is what today. you have no hope today.

Thank all the gods that humour is still alive and kicking!

by Stox 16 Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:35 pm

tlttf wrote:
Stox 16 wrote:
tlttf wrote:A councillor puts works out to tender and has a meeting with 3 of the subbies.
The 1st one offers to do the work for £100,000. The 2nd offers to do the work for £150,00 and the 3rd offers to do the work for £500,000. The councillor asks the 3rd person how he arrived at his figure and was told £200,000 for you, £200,000 for me and we give the work to the first bloke. Now that is economics within the public sector.

tittf its quite clear you have never been a councillor with this post. I have and believe me or not it does not work like that at all. I know the right wing have a one track mind on public sector contracts but you really should find out what its like in the real world of council before you post these things. its just quite amazing to think you could even post such rot. just one small wee point..... if a tender is put in by a councillor he has to declare a interest and then leave the meeting. End of Story. if he does not... it can and does lead to jail.... I also saw a Tory councillor try not to declare a interest. he is now in Suffolk open prison that is less than 10 miles from my front door. The local press check every local tender and know what is what today. you have no hope today.

Thank all the gods that humour is still alive and kicking!

pleased i could put you right tittf. but its just goes to show how little you know about council. Very Happy

but you get yourself elected the tittf and try what you think happens? Then we will find out how your humour stands up to five years in Jail. let me know what Jail your in? as I will dead happy to share a joke with you a visiting time.

by astra Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:24 pm

When I was reading this, why did T. Dan Smith come to mind?

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