What now for Labour? (Part 2)

First topic message reminder :

Phil Hornby wrote:I feel that Corbyn is sincere, polite, interesting and likeable - so are my neighbours but, like them, he isn't electable as Prime Minister.

In which case, why should we pay some phoney twicer to be something else?

At the moment I have little choice - having been excluded from the party I have been consigned to the periphery with no voice in party development and no ability to be involved in local activism.

I have accordingly cancelled my Direct Debits - why pay for an organisation I am no longer a member of?

When I receive information about whatever it is I'm supposed to have said (I'm told it should be some time this week) I gather I can't appeal - I can only challenge the decision of the NEC on the grounds that the information used to reach the decision is not factual - as I understand it, this means I can only be reinstated as a party member if it turns out I've been excluded because of someone else's tweets.

Once the new NEC is in place I'll see whether I have any more confidence in the party.
At the moment I've been tarred with the same brush as the few dozen or so who have made abusive and insulting posts or have threatened harm to party members - as a respectful and peace loving lifetime supporter of the party this does not sit well with me

This is a party which is supposed to be the principal opposition to the government.

How anyone can have any confidence in it is beyond my comprehension...

Phil Hornby wrote:This is a party which is supposed to be the principal opposition to the government.

I think the Party is okay - it is just that the Parliamentary careerists have got above themselves, as so often happens.

I see the distinction, of course - but those representing the party in Parliament need to become coherent - and quickly.

The 2020 election needs to see more Labour MPs- being strong outside Parliament has a very limited practical effect beyond loud protest...

Comedy Hour

(sputniknews.com)

" Listen up - you'll love this one :  ' What's the difference between me and a Giant Panda?  Only one of us is now an endangered species!' Boom, boom!..."

This man:



is a stooge, contesting the leadership of the Labour Party only in order to ensure the election of Jeremy Corbyn.

You read it here first.

Voting for a Labour leader closes at mid-day today, and the result will be announced on Saturday at Party conference, but the back-stabbing roulette wheel continues to revolve.
Chris Mullin described something similar in his 1982 novel "A Very British Coup".

plus ça change, plus c’ est la même chose as they don't say in Liverpool.

I am very disappointed in the Labour party

Though if people will only let Jeremy return the Labour Party to Socialism, there is hope for the future clearly absent from the Summer of 2016.

While the right-wing propagandists trumpet about infiltration by Trotskyists, nobody remembers how far Blair lurched towards Conservatism once John Smith was no longer there to keep him honest.

To be brutally honest, I'm sick of the lot of it - have cancelled my Direct Debits to Labour and I am reconciled to not returning to the party.

Not only was the recent 'purging' a brutal abuse of power, but also within my local party I had no support or advice - if I join a political party again, it would have to be one that actually values its members

boatlady - I am so sorry to hear that you have been the victim of Labour's purge. So many good people are being treated quite appallingly.

As an ex Labour member, I know what a terrible wrench it is to leave the Party which, despite its size, operated very much like a (slightly dysfunctional) family at local level. I have no recent experience of the party other than reports from people like you who have been describing a Party at war with itself rather than with the Tories.

Despite my sadness at the state of the Labour Party, I am going to make some points which I know will hurt many current Labour members for which I apologise in advance. Causing personal injury or offence is not my goal. Positive exchange of views and political change remain my only objectives.

One of our local Green Party members made a comment to me recently which shocked me but for some reason came as a Eureka moment. She said that "the problem with the Labour Party is that it has to carry far too much baggage". I immediately agreed, not in a condemning or judgmental way but rather as a straightforward acknowledgment of the fact.

Tradition and history in politics are very important and anyone who doesn't study history, identify recurring damaging patterns and try to avoid making the same mistakes is a fool. Tradition gives texture and colour to our actions. All of that said, any party can have too much of a good thing. Labour appears to be paralysed by its past, Ramsey MacDonald, the IMF, the Winter of Discontent, Union Block Votes, Benn v Healey, Militant Tendency, Miners Strikes, 1992 Sheffield Rally, John Smith's tragic death, Blair's invasion of Iraq, the 2007/8 global financial crisis, BigotGate to name only a few. The rabbit is mesmerised by the headlights and the car is upon it. Too much baggage.

Right now the Green Party is like a flea on an elephant, extremely small, hardly noticed except for the occasional 'bite' but very agile, resilient, constant in objective but adaptable to the changing fortunes of its host (in this case, humanity and the Earth). It has little baggage and travels light. It has a huge raft of forward-looking policies (many still unavoidably Beta) but if anything is lacking in transitional bridge policies to get us from where we are now to where we need to be as fast as possible without causing massive social dislocation or precipitating a reactionary authoritarian response from the darkest forces in our society's elite. Members tend to free-thinking radical libertarians, highly diverse in their reasons for being Greens. Most of our members reject any form of tribalism which is why people move freely into and out of the Green Party and sometimes (like me) back again through their lives. We share an underpinning philosophy that guides the direction of Party policy but it is not driven by dogma but rather by what we think will work, what will deliver the best results for people and planet (inseparable objectives).

Although I still have an emotional connection with Labour which causes my current distress, I strangely have no such emotional link with the Green Party. I like our local members but I consider it only as a vehicle. If the Green Party ever got into government and decided to invade Iraq without proven cause, I would leave the Party without hesitation as would nearly ALL of the members I know. That is something VERY different to Labour. Being Green is very different but now more than ever I would argue it is better for anyone on the principled, democratic, libertarian left. Whatever happens when (as looks very likely) Jeremy Corbyn is re-elected as Labour Leader on Saturday, the Green Party must I hope be seen as an option for anyone who doesn't only want a progressive LEADER in the Labour Party, but also progressive POLICIES. That has yet to happen and my bet is it never will.

The last straw for me with Labour's tribalism was when Corbyn appeared to reject the Green Party's offer of an electoral pact on a shared platform of delivering electoral and constitutional reform. Yet again 'our turn to govern' or 'winner takes it all' has overriden the best chance of defeating this evil Tory administration at the next General Election and delivering fair votes for all of the people and parties of this country for the foreseeable future. With PR enacted after the next election, Labour could split into as many pieces as it wanted without risking electoral oblivion for the centre and left as is threatened now.

I now await the hailstorm of flack I suffered just before the last General Election. Ivan may wish he never asked and maybe I will wish I never posted.....

On "Cutting Edge" there should not be too much flack for expressing a view.  It's what we're here for.  My (entirely personal) view of the Green Party is of a bunch of hand-wringing do-gooders who say "something must be done", like the totally ineffectual King Edward VIII in the 1930s.  Most of their ambitions are entirely laudable, but like expecting the Rich to shove some cash in the direction of the Poor - "pie in the sky".  Many Green theories put forward e.g. in respect of global warming and energy conservation, hark back to the Hair Shirt tendency of the traditional British puritan.

It was significant that David Cameron as PM initially bathed his energy proposals in a Green glow but quickly did a handbrake turn when the money-men pointed out the cost.

The road to Hell, they say, is paved with Good Intentions.

Chas - distressed as I am at being expelled from Labour and receiving no help from my CLP, I'm really not in the market for h=joining another political party.

The reasons I joined Labour were
1) I believed the party embraced socialist principles - apparently I was wrong
2) this is important - the party had successfully been in government - under Wilson - I was prepared to believe the Blair years were a blip.

Having found the party is currently just the Tories with different rhetoric I'm now waiting to see whether there is any change after the no doubt inevitable re-election of Jeremy Corbyn - if not, I'm moving to fairyland

Why did I vote for Jeremy Corbyn? Because the real radicals, the genuine exrtemists who fight tooth and nail day in day out without any fear of the repercussions, unashamedly on behalf of their class, are the Tories. I want someone to do it on behalf of my class as fiercely as the tories do on behalf of the tax dodgers, bankers and wealthy business class. In other words I want a socialist at the helm.

Hear, hear

ssocialdrummer wrote:.... I want someone to [vote] on behalf of my class as fiercely as the tories do on behalf of the tax dodgers, bankers and wealthy business class....

Is that all, ssd?  Oh that's easy - just persuade working-class people to stop voting Tory against their own interests.

That would certainly be a start - pity no-one thinks they're working class any more - it seems it's only aging graduates like me that are willing to accept the label

boatlady wrote:That would certainly be a start - pity no-one thinks they're working class any more - it seems it's only aging graduates like me that are willing to accept the label

We are not supposed to think we are anything but totally free, utterly obedient serfs, who think for ourselves and do as we are told, like the trumpers. It doesn't much matter if we call ourselves lords or royalty - if we live off wages, the same conditions apply.

Well done to Jeremy for winning the leadership election.

Shame on the treacherous PLP members and Labour bigwigs who brought this about and by doing so have done untold damage to the Labour party. If they had shown positivity over Corbyn's leadership first time around and projected that positivity to the public the Labour party may have been in a much stronger position now, and ahead in the polls. Unfortunately they chose to be not only negative about Corbyn, but also attack him, organise a particularly nasty coup - which they had planned for months in advance; and the result of their behaviour? A dip in the polls and little public trust, confidence, or belief in Labour.

I suppose when Labour lose the general election the Blairists, moderates, and watered down Tories can point at Corbyn and say 'it's his fault'; and then they will take back control of the party and settle back snug as bugs once again in their cosy parliamentary bubble.

sickchip wrote:Well done to Jeremy for winning the leadership election.

Shame on the treacherous PLP members and Labour bigwigs who brought this about and by doing so have done untold damage to the Labour party. If they had shown positivity over Corbyn's leadership first time around and projected that positivity to the public the Labour party may have been in a much stronger position now, and ahead in the polls. Unfortunately they chose to be not only negative about Corbyn, but also attack him, organise a particularly nasty coup - which they had planned for months in advance; and the result of their behaviour? A dip in the polls and little public trust, confidence, or belief in Labour.

I suppose when Labour lose the general election the Blairists, moderates, and watered down Tories can point at Corbyn and say 'it's his fault'; and then they will take back control of the party and settle back snug as bugs once again in their cosy parliamentary bubble.

They'll try, as always, but why let 'em? The current line seems to be, 'Everyone else agrees with Mr Corbyn, but they can't possibly win because Mr Murdoch doesn't? Beats feudalism, doesn't it! Divine right of foreign shits!

boatlady,

I have been on here, though not posting, recently. I just want to say your expulsion from the party is a disgrace, and I find it extremely disheartening. To me, you come across as the kind of person who encapsulates all that is good, decent, and fair in their political opinions - the kind of person who is truly Labour in principle. I'm very sad that you have fell victim to the ridiculous, and unfair, purge initiated by the neo-liberal supporting, anti-Corbyn bigwigs in the party. A purge only undertook because of their hatred of Corbyn.

Real change involves fighting against adversity.....which Corbyn has demonstrated; and I hope you don't give up the fight. Stay strong, keep making a difference, and letting your voice be heard.......it's the small things/acts we all perform in our everyday lives that matter and will, over time, meld together to positively influence others and create a society that will see the decency/fairness in what Corbyn and others want to achieve.

Today's political cartoon by Rowson in The Guardian is remarkably detailed.

Jeremy Corbyn is depicted as Don Quixote roped upright in the saddle of a red Rosinante emblazoned with a large letter "M", while Tom Watson as Sancho Pansa carries a studded club and is perched on top of a tiny donkey displaying a PLP rosette from its rear. Various windmills presented for tilting-at begin with a brooding Theresa May, continuing down through Fat Cats, Greens and party-unfaithfuls replete with circling vultures.

From radio interviews at Party Conference it is apparent that some New Labour dinosaurs have yet to acknowledge that the British Public gave up on them in 2008.

Sickchip - thanks for your kind words - I'm unlikely to seek membership of the party again but will continue hopefully providing advice and support in some form

More than ever, I feel that the only likely successful opposition to the Tory Party will come - eventually - from the emergence of some sort of social democratic movement comprising, inter alia ,elements of the various current opposition groups .

If there isn't something of that nature, heaven help the disadvantaged and dispossessed for whom I truly fear as the years drift by.

I don't believe that a Corbyn-led Labour Party has any chance of providing the answer , whatever qualities the chap has and however sincere are his intentions. I take no pleasure in holding these views, which may well be shared by all too many other voters.

oftenwrong wrote:On "Cutting Edge" there should not be too much flack for expressing a view.  It's what we're here for.  My (entirely personal) view of the Green Party is of a bunch of hand-wringing do-gooders who say "something must be done", like the totally ineffectual King Edward VIII in the 1930s.  Most of their ambitions are entirely laudable, but like expecting the Rich to shove some cash in the direction of the Poor - "pie in the sky".  Many Green theories put forward e.g. in respect of global warming and energy conservation, hark back to the Hair Shirt tendency of the traditional British puritan.

It was significant that David Cameron as PM initially bathed his energy proposals in a Green glow but quickly did a handbrake turn when the money-men pointed out the cost.

The road to Hell, they say, is paved with Good Intentions.

The Green Party recognises that social justice is a pre-requisite for creating stable, sustainable economies and for protecting the ecology of the planet on which humanity and all other species depend. Progress on sustainable living is doomed to fail without social justice and all policies are framed to recognise this linkage.

Greens are no different to anyone on the democratic rather than revolutionary left in proposing a progressive taxation system that would increase revenue from rentier wealth that creates no social benefit. I'm puzzled to know why you think the Greens' idea is any more outlandish than a left wing Labour Party which one would hope would adopt similar policies at some time before the end of our natural lives under Jeremy Corbyn's needlessly revalidated leadership. Examples are a Tobin Tax on financial transactions (called Robin Hood Tax in the US) and a Land Value Tax, ensuring that the wealthiest pay against tangible assets that are impossible to hide. Progressive taxation and far more equal societies are already a reality in several northern european / scandinavian countries and the idea that it is 'pie in the sky' for any of us in the UK to believe that is possible, even under capitalism is very puzzling.

The Greens' longstanding policy of a Basic Income Scheme (or Citizen's Income) would be a game changer for poverty alleviation and create a less unequal society. This idea is beginning to gain traction in the political mainstream.

Now onto the Hair Shirt theory. Unless you are indeed a hair shirt wearing religious fanatic (as a Catholic I understand we were as guilty of that as the Puritans!), hair shirts end up being imposed on people due to poverty or resource depletion. Examples are fuel poverty in the UK and resource depletion (and now war) in Yemen. A more equal, stable state sustainable economy and healthy environment benefit us all and ensure those benefits are passed on to future generations as well as our own. Try telling an elderly person that upgrading the draught-proofing and insulation on their previously cold, draughty house to keep them warmer in the winter is giving them a hair shirt to wear.

As far as cost is concerned, it's all about choices and vested interests and always has been. I campaigned against the Sizewell B nuclear power plant during the public inquiry in 1983. Evidence was presented (not refuted) that the lofts of half of the homes in Britain could have had their insulation upgraded for the cost of building the power station and that would save eight times the amount of energy than Sizewell would generate and create many thousands more jobs than biulding the plant.

"Something Must Be Done" - the mantra of interventionists in New Labour and Conservative Parties - resulting in the invasion of Iraq despite one million people marching against it in London. No, Greens do not have an obsession with intervening in every foreign theatre and can make judgements about when doing little or nothing is best. Equally, I and many of my fellow Green Party members are not pacifists and do support adequate conventional military forces for the defence of the UK and for UN military peacekeeping missions overseas.

The cost of failing to act on climate change, resource depletion, environmental and ecological degradation will ultimately be far greater in the future if we fail to take adequate steps now to address these issues. As one farmer who became an organic convert noticed, his family had bought ever increasingly powerful tractors as the decades passed because the soil itself was becoming harder and harder to plough as it became more exhausted.

My hope remains that greens and socialists can forge a new democratic eco-socialist platform and that we start to look far more to improving our future than at the divisions of the past. Corbyn's Labour can do that now if it unites, accepts extended hands of friendship and doesn't behave like it has all the answers.

sickchip wrote:Well done to Jeremy for winning the leadership election.

Shame on the treacherous PLP members and Labour bigwigs who brought this about and by doing so have done untold damage to the Labour party. If they had shown positivity over Corbyn's leadership first time around and projected that positivity to the public the Labour party may have been in a much stronger position now, and ahead in the polls. Unfortunately they chose to be not only negative about Corbyn, but also attack him, organise a particularly nasty coup - which they had planned for months in advance; and the result of their behaviour? A dip in the polls and little public trust, confidence, or belief in Labour.

I suppose when Labour lose the general election the Blairists, moderates, and watered down Tories can point at Corbyn and say 'it's his fault'; and then they will take back control of the party and settle back snug as bugs once again in their cosy parliamentary bubble.

Most of the active members in our local Green Party respect Jeremy Corbyn's principled lifestyle, his lifetime of consistent campaigning and for him remaining a Tony Benn 'Signpost' rather than a 'Weathervane'. I personally felt disgusted by the way he was treated by many in the PLP and have been scathing about the self-indulgence of 'Her Majesty's Opposition' going off on a frolic of its own when the country is in the middle of an austerity, Brexit and democratic crisis.

Labour had a mountain to climb to win a majority in 2020. Now, after imminent boundary changes, it is a cliff face. In my opinion, for Labour to win it must:

1) Unite behind Jeremy Corbyn's leadership
2) Develop a policy platform that creates and inspires a social and political movement from grassroots up
3) Acknowledge it cannot possibly win on its own and form a progressive electoral pact, with Greens, Lib Dems, Plaid Cymru and SNP pledging enactment of electoral and constitutional reform

My prediction is that it will not manage one of the above even though it needs all three but I live in eternal hope.

All of which, whilst cogently argued, does little to acknowledge exactly WHY Jeremy Corby has been CONFIRMED as Leader of his party. The mass of votes came from British people totally disenchanted with the games politicians play. It was a loud raspberry to the PLP "moderates" who don't want to frighten the horses by moving too far away from conservatism because they imagine that's the only way to keep their jobs.

Unpopular news as that may have come to New Labour Blairites, it's also a blunt message to every other political party in the UK.

oftenwrong,

It is clear the tosser's planned the coup fully expecting the pressure to force Corbyn into standing down and letting them replace him with a leader more amenable to their will. When Corbyn called their bluff and their pathetic underhand plot failed they didn't even have a credible candidate for leader from around 180 traitors.........which serves to demonstrate the lack of ambition, will, and vision that most of the PLP have - they clearly would prefer to simply plod along with the Tory neo-liberal agenda and offer only gesture opposition now and again. Because Corbyn doesn't want to maintain that status quo they will continue to try and undermine him and force his resignation. Unfortunately those holding the reins in the upper echelons of the party are mainly extremist right-wing scum.

I think the struggle is far from over, but it has to be said that, in re-winning the leadership with an increased majority, Corbyn has certainly put some sort of a cat among the pigeons - interesting times ahead for British politics, one hopes

Chas' idea of a progressive electoral pact is by no means an impossible dream in my view

Today's newspapers include "reports" that only 16% of electors think that Jeremy Corbyn can win the next General Election, and only 36% out of those who have just voted for him actually think that either.

Unreported is the finding that 100% of those "surveyed" forecast that the weather on polling day would be cloudy with a chance of meatballs.

It has been interesting to watch some of the Anti-Corbyn MP's run around the various 'news' outlets still putting the knife into Corbyn and MacDonalds backs....Cooper claiming that a phrase, used in Parliament, towards a Female Tory Minister was not acceptable purely on the grounds that she was female. She seemed, to me at least, that this was evidence of an Anti-Female attitude by the current Labour leadership and the interviewer did not ask if Cooper would be feeling the same if the phase had been used against a male minister........
Another interviewer asked Diane Abbott why, with many of the political parties now having a female leader Labour hadn't gone that route ......
It seems clear that there will be many Labour MP's who will continue their sniping from the backbenches and will cry foul if they are not selected as candidate for their seats before the next election...

Are the PLP claiming that there are now 300,000+ Marxists, Trotskists in the party?

The real intention of the coup against Corbyn was to ensure Labour are defeated at the general election under his leadership. In which case the Blairists, moderates, and neo-liberals agenda is still on track. Once he suffers defeat in the general election they can seize control of the party again and vanquish the 'left'. That is the bigger picture........this leadership skirmish was engineered to help enable that

I think, in terms of general elections, that it is vital to kick the traitors out soon.

That would be my preference to be honest - except many of them are long-serving Labour people who do genuinely appear to believe they are in the right - I wish I really understood their exception to Corbyn - feel there must be something I'm missing

There are Progressives, and then there are Luddites.

Forward!

Are you sure?  When we tried that it didn't work.

boatlady wrote:That would be my preference to be honest - except many of them are long-serving Labour people who do genuinely appear to believe they are in the right - I wish I really understood their exception to Corbyn - feel there must be something I'm missing

Perhaps you don't read the papers, and they read nothing else?

boatlady wrote:That would be my preference to be honest - except many of them are long-serving Labour people who do genuinely appear to believe they are in the right - I wish I really understood their exception to Corbyn - feel there must be something I'm missing

boatlady, depressing though it is, in my opinion for many of the 'rebels' in the PLP it comes down to wanting to retain power, privilege and wealth. The irony is that for them 'power' does not have to mean an election victory or running the country. Rather it means power over the Labour Party machinery, procedures etc.

Some Greens really do practice what they preach and Corbyn appears to as a socialist. He is shaming some of them with his virtually non existent expenses claims, 'Greenwoods Menswear' wardrobe and anonymous home. I'm sure that makes some of the Savile Row suited brigade feel very exposed. Corbyn wants the Labour Party to be much more like the Green Party organisationally, much closer to its grassroots members. He is bound to anger entrenched vested interests in the Party.

Will the Corbyn experiment work for Labour? Who knows? I certainly don't. All I do know is that the future of EVERY progressive political party rides on it, barring the unlikely disintegration of the Tory Party.

October 20th is the date for a by-election in Witney, Oxfordshire due to Cameron's resignation:

The 2015 GE result there was

Conservative, David Cameron 35,201
Labour, Duncan Enright 10,046
UKIP, Simon Strutt 5,352

Duncan Enright is again the Labour candidate, but with a much higher public profile due to the increased membership of, and interest in, the Labour Party under Jeremy Corbyn's leadership. There has never been a better chance of capturing this formerly "safe Tory seat".

I'd love to be proved wrong, but as Captain Mainwaring would have said to Corporal Jones, "I think you're getting into the realms of fantasy".

Well, basically, it depends whether you (and the millions of mugs) believe us or Murdoch etc.   At the moment they are just pissed off and confused, as with the Brexit nuttiness, but they could move if someone addressed them in a language they understood.