What now for Labour? (Part 2)

First topic message reminder :

Phil Hornby wrote:I feel that Corbyn is sincere, polite, interesting and likeable - so are my neighbours but, like them, he isn't electable as Prime Minister.

In which case, why should we pay some phoney twicer to be something else?

Well, basically, it depends whether you (and the millions of mugs) believe us or Murdoch etc.   At the moment they are just pissed off and confused, as with the Brexit nuttiness, but they could move if someone addressed them in a language they understood.

My comments were specifically about the Witney by-election, where Labour would require a 22% swing to take the seat. Witney is a prosperous town in Oxfordshire, and it will be sensational if its residents, the majority of whom tend to vote for anyone wearing a blue rosette, fail to elect the barrister and local district councillor who is standing for the Tories. But I guess we can live in hope!

Live in hope and love in hope, people do it all the time, sometimes against all the odds - nevertheless "no-hopers" do get elected and unlikely partnerships do survive in spite of everything.

The pollsters must have been having sleepless nights since they got the Scottish referendum WRONG, and the 2015 GE results WRONG, and were wrong yet again in forecasting the In or Out referendum that came out as Brexit against expectations.

Electors are in a funny mood just now, ready to upset the apple-cart. The well-oiled Tory machine is of course swinging into action as ever in Witney, but in the light of other recent surprises you don't have to be a cock-eyed optimist to hope for a dramatic poke in the eye for Central Office on October 20th. Everybody "knows" that by-elections don't matter, but the really bad vibe associated with the name Cameron just now could make an exception of this one.

I think Corbyn needs to get on  top of the NEC first - right wing Labour MP's still calling him unelectable and still talking the party down

The Labour plotters are right: it‘s definitely Jeremy Corbyn who needs to ‘learn lessons’ from the last few months

From an article by Mark Steel:-

Well, that was a highly successful three-month campaign to get rid of Jeremy Corbyn. There’s nothing like spending all summer on a project that proves worthwhile and repays the effort. If Angela Eagle and Owen Smith were generals in a medieval army, they would report back to their commander: “We fired incessantly for three months and have brought such damage to our opponent’s army they now have 100,000 more soldiers than when we started, sir. And I’m not sure how, but although we’re fighting in Belgium, we seem to have given them Wales.”

Even so, the plotters made an important point: that Corbyn must reach out to those who already tried to unite the party by calling him a moronic pitiful unelectable pile of steaming goat sick for the last year.
Instead of being divisive, as he was last time by offering them jobs in the shadow cabinet from which they resigned, he should let them pick their own jobs, and if they don’t fancy doing them one day, let them bring in games.

All the plotters agreed on the need for unity, and many of them displayed that straight away by not turning up to Corbyn’s speech. But Corbyn himself ruined the unity by turning up to it himself, rather than uniting with his colleagues by saying he couldn’t be bothered to say anything so he was popping down the pub.

For the whole article:-
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jeremy-corbyn-labour-plotters-blairites-mps-learn-lessons-unite-party-last-few-months-a7338136.html

Post referendum we had a spate of reports about people perceived to be immigrants being taunted and subjected to abuse. Theresa May and her cohorts in dressing xenophobia up as patriotism are engendering an atmosphere that will further encourage these instances of abuse.

Liam Fox, in refusing to guarantee those already living here that they can stay is practically guilty of taunting immigrants himself.

The Tory party are a disgrace.

What now for Labour? It's time to really start taking the Tories to task with rigorous and sustained criticism of every move the Tories make. Come on Labour.....attack.

Currently (and hopefully only temporarily), the main Opposition to HM Government is the international Foreign Exchange market.

boatlady wrote:I think Corbyn needs to get on  top of the NEC first - right wing Labour MP's still calling him unelectable and still talking the party down

An opportunity that eluded Mr Corbyn at Conference, which neutralised the NEC by appointing "seeds" from Scotland and Wales.

Did anyone else think they heard the voice of David Miliband in there somewhere?

Among others - there seems to be a strong element of the Labour party that is determined the party will never espouse socialist ideas and that ousting Jeremy Corbyn is even more important than the overarching imperative to be 'electable' - whatever that means

As time passes, the inadequacy of FPTP for election result calculation becomes increasingly apparent. Tinkering with constituency boundaries serves only to emphasise its shortcomings. Obviously the Tories like it, and that alone should be sufficient reason to introduce urgent reform.

Corbyn just isn't up to the job.

Not because I don't agree with his views, although, as a statist, they don't go anywhere near far enough.

But because he has no idea that he's playing a game he can't win. Parliamentary politics/westminster politics are a waste of time and a game that corbyn cannot win.

And now the hatchet job is complete: Labour have been 'exposed' as racist.

They are finished. There is only one way to change things: direct action.

Thank you for sharing your opinions GW

ghost whistler wrote:There is only one way to change things: direct action.

Tried it lately?   Wait till they abolish democracy totally and have only a House of Newspaper Owners appointing gauleiters (couple of years, perhaps?)   Right now, not a hope.

Democracy has already been abolished.

Sure you can place your cross in a box next to a choice of names you had no say in, but there is absolutely nothing that compels those liars from doing any of the things that convinced you to choose them.

Labour are dead. This media campaign has buried them and, sadly, Corbyn has no answer for it. Their position in the polls is dire. 20 points behind the Tories.

ghost whistler wrote:Labour are dead. This media campaign has buried them and, sadly, Corbyn has no answer for it. Their position in the polls is dire. 20 points behind the Tories.

 

Look at the number of members, and never mind the blatherers.   To do anything we are going to need every person we can get.

The evidence is that the PLP is still battling to remove or at the very least, neutralise, Jeremy Corbyn and all who sail in him, in the current case aided by Tory members of a House Committee - which says it all.

But faint heart ne'er won fair ladye so the faithful must continue to support the only chance there is to supplant Toff's Law with something resembling a fair deal for the British majority population.  Remember what hopes we all had when Blair blagged his way into becoming PM in 1997?

oftenwrong,

Yes, you are correct about the PLP still being full of, what I would call, idiots.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/16/labour-mps-call-for-ballots-to-signal-open-dissent-against-corbyn

Labour backbenchers are preparing to call for a series of MPs’ ballots to signal their dissent from the party’s leadership on policy areas where they believe Jeremy Corbyn is out of step with mainstream public opinion.
Heathrow expansion, which Corbyn opposes, will be the test case for the new approach, which one critical backbencher called “constructively muscular”. If accepted, the proposal could see MPs openly defy the official position of their leader.

Depressing.

For the record, Channel 4 ‘Dispatches’ spent six months undercover in Momentum and Labour and found no evidence of any anti-semitic behaviour at all. Being opposed to Netanyahu and the actions of his government (as no doubt many Israelis are) does not make you anti-semitic.

It’s strange how this part of the parliamentary select committee report seems to have evaded so many political commentators today:-


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cu5OBc-XEAAWro1.jpg

Penderyn wrote:Look at the number of members, and never mind the blatherers.   To do anything we are going to need every person we can get.

We don't live in an age where the size of the party matters. Tories have a tiny dwindling base and yet they retain power.

Penderyn wrote:Tried it lately? Wait till they abolish democracy totally and have only a House of Newspaper Owners appointing gauleiters (couple of years, perhaps?)  Right now, not a hope.

What do you think we have right now?

Ivan wrote:For the record, Channel 4 ‘Dispatches’ spent six months undercover in Momentum and Labour and found no evidence of any anti-semitic behaviour at all. Being opposed to Netanyahu and the actions of his government (as no doubt many Israelis are) does not make you anti-semitic.

It’s strange how this part of the parliamentary select committee report seems to have evaded so many political commentators today:-


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cu5OBc-XEAAWro1.jpg

Because the zionist/pro israel lobby has power and influence. There is no voice for the truth of the Palestinian situation and anyone who speaks that truth is a racist.

But does the "Speak-your-Fortune" machine on Grand Pier have any solutions to offer?

ghost whistler wrote:What do you think we have right now?

A population that still half-believes the newspapers and whose cynicism lacks focus.   The proportion prepared to support armed revolution is miniscule.  I think that whatever we believe we should know how to avoid deliberate and pointless suicide.

But Jeremy Corbyn is a risk that the middle-class can afford to take.

By Sarah Ditum
I know I’m middle class, because the day I needed to claim benefits and burst into tears because the queue was too long and I knew I would be going home without the money to pay the overdue electricity bill, the security guard took me aside and told me that if I came back early the next day, someone would be able to see me. I know the family in front of me were not middle class because the buggy they were pushing was a lesser brand than the one I was pushing, and because they were smoking, and because they had strong Sheffield accents, which I heard when they started to remonstrate with the security guard about the special treatment they (rightly) suspected I was getting. I hurried away, their threats to give me a good slapping echoing behind me.


http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/07/jeremy-corbyn-risk-middle-class-can-afford-take

Sarah Ditum, of course, assumes another Blair type government would intend to carry out the outcomes she piously wishes for her erstwhile neighbours - personally, I wouldn't bet on it - I'd much rather bet on an honestly socialist Labour party - getting into power's great, but if you leave your socialist principles behind you on the way it's no help at all.

Rather an active and aggressive opposition than another Tory lite government

Penderyn wrote:A population that still half-believes the newspapers and whose cynicism lacks focus.   The proportion prepared to support armed revolution is miniscule.  I think that whatever we believe we should know how to avoid deliberate and pointless suicide.

I didn't say anything about weaponry. That's your attempt to smear what i've said. But that's ok, you can continue to vote for politicians who won't represent you rather than fight for a system where you can be your own voice. After all, it's not the like Labour party just spent a year trying to oust Corbyn in the most vulgar fashion, marginalising its own members to do so.

boatlady wrote:Sarah Ditum, of course, assumes another Blair type government would intend to carry out the outcomes she piously wishes for her erstwhile neighbours - personally, I wouldn't bet on it - I'd much rather bet on an honestly socialist Labour party - getting into power's great, but if you leave your socialist principles behind you on the way it's no help at all.

Rather an active and aggressive opposition than another Tory lite government

There's no difference.

oftenwrong wrote:But does the "Speak-your-Fortune" machine on Grand Pier have any solutions to offer?

i've no idea who or what you are referring to, but speaking for myself I've given alternatives. You just aren't interested in anything other than your partisan politics which demonstrable fail every time

Why is Ian McNichol still allowed to represent, speak for, or act as a member of the LP, never mind to have a very high position within?

ghost whistler wrote:I didn't say anything about weaponry. That's your attempt to smear what i've said. But that's ok, you can continue to vote for politicians who won't represent you rather than fight for a system where you can be your own voice. After all, it's not the like Labour party just spent a year trying to oust Corbyn in the most vulgar fashion, marginalising its own members to do so.

Why not join a monastery and get closer to the Lord?   I think you are hopelessly naïve.

boatlady wrote:Rather an active and aggressive opposition than another Tory lite government

Absolutely agree boatlady. I'm in the Green Party because I could not stomach the betrayal of Blair's Labour Party of its founding values, all in the pursuit of power. Ramsay MacDonald must have been Blair's hero. If the Green Party ever became the Government (stop laughing please) and it decided to invade a foreign country in the absence of any proven existential threat to the UK, I would resign from it tomorrow and wipe my feet on the way out. Politics is about fighting for enduring values because without them, power is worthless and corrupting.

I am not a violent revolutionary and never will be. I believe in fair democracy and peaceful persuasion. I do not however consider an elective dictatorship with the support of only 24% of the UK electorate to be legitimate. I see it as an electoral fraud, governance of the majority by the minority. I will therefore continue to resist it and campaign against it until the last breath in my body.

There has been a very proud tradition of radical resistance and campaining in the country - Diggers, Levellers, Chartists, Sufragettes, Trade Unionists, Environmentalists, Anti-Nuclear etc. Many were willing to be martyrs to their cause, put their bodies on the line. It is that spirit that all democrats and progressives need to reconnect with to initially block this illegitimate governing mafia and to make this country ungovernable on their terms. Concerted non violent direct action on a mass scale is the way forward. It is clear that the Tories are entrenching themselves and fortifying their minority position as rapidly as they can. Meanwhile, in Westminster, I live in hope that Labour CLPs WILL deselect those that would destroy the Party to protect their own privilege and that Corbyn will accept that Labour cannot win GE2020 without entering a pact with other progressive parties.

An early litmus test will be in Lancashire on fracking. We're ready for an almighty struggle up here. The outrage also extends to Lancashire's grassroots Tories who are up in arms at local democracy being over-ruled by dictat.  

This twin track approach - extra parliamentary resistance and cross party co-operation, have the best chance of dislodging this vile Government of oligarchy facilitators.

First thanks to a naïve Liberal Party propping them up in 2010, and then a Labour Party divided against itself in 2015, the Tories look well entrenched in power at Westminster. Cross-party united opposition is little more than a pious hope until the components realise they must first stop warring internally.

Penderyn wrote:Why not join a monastery and get closer to the Lord?   I think you are hopelessly naïve.

Why not take a look at what the system you advocate has brought. You don't need to believe in a deity to see since the evidence is everywhere.

oftenwrong wrote:First thanks to a naïve Liberal Party propping them up in 2010, and then a Labour Party divided against itself in 2015, the Tories look well entrenched in power at Westminster. Cross-party united opposition is little more than a pious hope until the components realise they must first stop warring internally.

exactly, so why support this system?

Chas Peeps wrote:I am not a violent revolutionary and never will be. I believe in fair democracy and peaceful persuasion. I do not however consider an elective dictatorship with the support of only 24% of the UK electorate to be legitimate. I see it as an electoral fraud, governance of the majority by the minority. I will therefore continue to resist it and campaign against it until the last breath in my body.

There has been a very proud tradition of radical resistance and campaining in the country - Diggers, Levellers, Chartists, Sufragettes, Trade Unionists, Environmentalists, Anti-Nuclear etc. Many were willing to be martyrs to their cause, put their bodies on the line. It is that spirit that all democrats and progressives need to reconnect with to initially block this illegitimate governing mafia and to make this country ungovernable on their terms. Concerted non violent direct action on a mass scale is the way forward. It is clear that the Tories are entrenching themselves and fortifying their minority position as rapidly as they can. Meanwhile, in Westminster, I live in hope that Labour CLPs WILL deselect those that would destroy the Party to protect their own privilege and that Corbyn will accept that Labour cannot win GE2020 without entering a pact with other progressive parties. 

This twin track approach - extra parliamentary resistance and cross party co-operation, have the best chance of dislodging this vile Government of oligarchy facilitators.

Again we don't have democracy, let alone a fair one (whatever that means). Peaceful persuasion is just capitulation. Where has it worked?

Endless questions without answers become boring rather quickly. Someone not part of the solution may be a part of the problem.

ghost whistler wrote:Why not take a look at what the system you advocate has brought. You don't need to believe in a deity to see since the evidence is everywhere.

I don't advocate any system - only getting shot of capitalism.   As we learned when Blair began his war crime, demos are not a good way to achieve that, or anything really.   You need a Party with the right policy.

oftenwrong wrote:Endless questions without answers become boring rather quickly. Someone not part of the solution may be a part of the problem.

You've been given answers. What you want is to believe someone else can sort society out for you. Won't happen. Hasn't happened. Isn't going to.

This twin track approach - extra parliamentary resistance and cross party co-operation, have the best chance of dislodging this vile Government of oligarchy facilitators.


I think you may be right - and there is a long struggle ahead, Chas Peeps

Writing about his time as industry secretary in 1974 and 1975, Tony Benn said: “I discovered how the immense power of the bankers and industrialists in Britain, and worldwide, could be used to bring direct and indirect pressure, backed by the media, first to halt, and then to reverse, the policy of a Labour government that both the electors and the House of Commons had accepted”. On another occasion he remarked: “Parliamentary democracy is, in truth, little more than a means of securing a periodical change in the management team, which is then allowed to preside over a system that remains in essence intact”. He would often say that it was pressure from outside Parliament, not inside, which led to significant reforms.

I think that Benn would have agreed with both ghost whistler and Penderyn in this discussion. He didn’t stand in the 2001 general election, saying he was "leaving Parliament in order to spend more time on politics”. He was president of ‘Stop The War Coalition’ from 2001 until his death in 2014, and he also headed ‘The Coalition Of Resistance’, a group which was opposed to the Tory/Lib Dem austerity programme. Yet he had been an MP for 47 years, and spent a quarter of that time as a cabinet minister. He recognised that it’s only Parliament that can change the law and that it gives MPs a chance to express the concerns of their constituents. He was clearly an advocate of peaceful extra-parliamentary mobilisation, but he never suggested abandoning parliamentary democracy, even though he recognised that it was flawed.

Wise words from Tony Benn, albeit somewhat defeatist. The right-wing forces that smothered him with mockery will be pleased to see them being repeated in the context of Cutting Edge. A reminder to us little people that Resistance is Futile.

The belittling technique continues of course against Jeremy Corbyn for similar reasons, but the choice is ours whether we are willing to be intimidated for a second time.

It can't be a good idea to abandon the democratic process simply because that's been hijacked by the class enemy.