Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Some religions like Christianity and Islam teach that people are condemned by God and that we have to work to gain salvation. God created us ill, and orders us to be well, on pain of tremendous eternal torture and eventual death. This teaching follows the one where we are told that God is unknowable, unfathomable and works in mysterious ways. This makes the notions of condemnation and the need for salvation obvious lies.

Gnostic Christianity does not use this type of carrot and stick motivation in its theology. We are Universalists and only see a heaven, no hell. We think God too good a creator to ever have to condemn anyone. Our God is a winner, not the loser God that Christianity has invented. All the Gods are myths created to help us reach our highest human potential and are only tools to open our inner eye. Our single eye as Jesus calls it.

How we can forgive ourselves is that as Universalists, we have tied righteousness to equality. The logic trail from there says that if God is to punish anyone, he would have to punish everyone as everyone contributes to what we all are.

For instance. If God were to punish Hitler, he would have to revue what made Hitler what he ended up being. God would follow his time line and see perhaps that his parents spanked him and God would know what we know today, that spanking creates resentment and a delinquent attitude. That beginning would see Hitler's parents setting his mindset which eventually flowered into his tyrannical nature. So to be just, God would automatically have to punish Hitler's parents. That same logic would apply to everyone who contributed or facilitated Hitler's rise to infamy.

So for you and me to blame just ourselves for what we are would be quite unjust. This is not to say that we hold no responsibility for our actions, just not all of them.

Do you agree that the need of Salvation promoted by religions is an evil lie?

Regards
DL

Greatest I am,
I feel you have a very unrealistic view of what a true Christian believes.

Prior to the birth of Jesus there were different requirements of those who believed in God, and these have nothing to do with anything after the birth of Jesus.

The Bible clearly states what is required for those who believe that Jesus came to save those who believe in God, and how their sins can be forgiven through his sacrifice.

We are all sinners, many suffer from all kinds of illness, and others from all kinds of disabilities etc;, and we all contribute to the sate the world is in, this has nothing to do with God in as much as mankind has free will, and is his own worst enemy.

Regards.

polyglide wrote:Greatest I am,
                 The Bible clearly states what is required for those who believe that Jesus came to save those who believe in God, and how their sins can be forgiven through his sacrifice.

                  Regards.    

Your bible s a book of fiction and should not be read literally. Follow the more intelligent ancient ways.

http://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

You are correct that we are all sinners and if anyone is to save one, they have to save all.

Gnostic Christians like me have rightly tied equality to righteousness and a righteous God would treat all souls equally.

To your main point.

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin. That being the case, for God to punish us for following the instincts and natures he put in us would be quite wrong.

Regards
DL

polyglide wrote:Greatest I am,
                   I feel you have a very unrealistic view of what a true Christian believes.

                   

With the plethora of different Christian cults, I am not surprised that you would think differently than I do.

Shall we ignore them all and discuss your view of Jesus and substitutionary punishment?

Let me give a short moral argument to see if you think you have a moral leg to stand on.

Human sacrifice is evil and God demanding one and accepting one is evil.

Those trying to profit from that evil are evil. Do just a bit of thinking and you will agree.

Imagine you have two children. One of your children does something wrong – say it curses, or throws a temper tantrum, or something like that. In fact, say it does this on a regular basis, and you continually forgive your child, but it never seems to change.

Now suppose one day you’ve had enough, you need to do something different. You still wish to forgive your child, but nothing has worked. Do you go to your second child, your good child, and punish it to atone for the sins of the first?

In fact, if you ever saw a parent on the street punish one of their children for the actions of their other child, how would you react? Would you support their decision, or would you be offended? Because God punished Jesus -- his good child -- for the sins of his other children.

Interestingly, some historical royal families would beat their slaves when their own children did wrong – you should not, after all, ever beat a prince. The question is: what kind of lesson does that teach the child who actually did the harm? Does it teach them to be a better person, to stop doing harm, or does it teach them both that they won't themselves be punished, and also that punishing other people is normal? I know that's not a lesson I would want to teach my children, and I suspect it's not a lesson most Christians would want to teach theirs. So why does God?

For me, that’s at least one significant reason I find Jesus’ atonement of our sin to be morally repugnant – of course, that’s assuming Jesus ever existed; that original sin actually exists; that God actually exists; etc.

Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

Do you agree?

If not, please show how it is morally and legally good to punish the innocent instead of the guilty, bearing in mind that all legal systems think that punishing the guilty is what is justice.

Regards
DL

Hi

The computer has been playing up and I have been losing the posts.

God has only taken what we feel rash actions when the conditions warrant them.

If a load of drunken, demented people threatend my children I would wipe them out withoput hesitation.

God offered his son Jesus as a sacrifice to save those who believed in him and acted accordingly from them on.

Had Jesus not fullfilled God's faith in him matters would have been diffrent, of course God was aware that Jesus could and would be restored to his spiritual state if he was faithfull.

God did not punish Jesus, in fact he has given him the highest possible honour for being faithfull under abnormal circumstances.

When God has taken steps that appear contrary to what one could expect , no one knows if anyone actually suffered, things are not always at face value.

So in your zeal to accept human sacrifice as moral, you are even willing to say that God is deceiving us.

Ok.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKNup9gEBdg&feature=em-subs_digest-vrecs

You must be an atheist trying to discredit Christians.

Trust me they do not need your help. Be the atheist you are as you make a poor apologist. No Christian would show the lack of morals that you do.

Regards
DL

I have never said God deceives anyone.

What I attempt to do is explain the actual facts to those who cannot accept that God will only take action according to all the circumstances, many of which we cannot be aware aware of.

As far as I am concerned God will only do what is necessary to safeguard those who are faithfull, and will do so in the manner he feels appropriate.

What you and others attempt to do is judge on matters you do not fully understand.

I doubt very much if you know what a moral is.

polyglide wrote:I doubt very much if you know what a moral is.

I do not follow a genocidal son-murdering prick of a God.

You do.

That is my morals as compared to yours.

Get thee behind me Satan.

Regards
DL

That says it all regarding your ability to consider, or lack of, fact from fiction.

The earth and all it involves is a fact, you cannot get anything from nothing.

Everything has to be created by one means or another, you prefer to believe in matters that have odds of being possible that are almost impossible to evaluate in terms we could grasp, there are not enough means of expressing them.

And your last sentence is indicative of one who believes in Satan, give it a little more thought and you will believe in God.

I hope and pray.

regards.

fact from fiction

you will believe in God.



Regards
DL

Stop or you will get a headache, however, if it results in you believing in God eventually, carry on.

regards.

polyglide wrote:Stop or you will get a headache, however, if it results in you believing in God eventually, carry on.

                                                          regards.

Faith without facts is for fools.

Regards
DL

As I understand matters, if you had facts you would no longer need faith, the matters I depend on are those recorded in the Bible, I agree that at times they apear to be against what one would expect, however, seek and ye shall find, as I have done when requesting answers to a problem.

If you do not experience something you have nothing to base matters on other than what is available in other ways, as far as I am concerned it is more foolish to believe that life came about without an intelligent source being involved than to believe in fairies.

regards.

And you believe in all that supernatural garbage whereas the ancients did not.

Atheists who pretend to be Christian apologists are usually better than you.

Regards
DL

I believe in what I see and have experienced, the ancients had an entirely different set of values on which to base their opinions.

I believe in God as the creator of all things (originally) I accept that there are numerous unanswered questions, however, I cannot think of a more reasonable answer to the origin of all things than a creator, and I believe the creator to be God of the Bible.

So you believe in a God who would condemn his own perfect works.

Follow that looser all you like but you have to leave any notion of a moral God behind.

There are many good reasons why we Gnostic Christians have always seen you God as a vile demiurge.

You show how little moral sense you have by following such a satanic God.

Regards
DL

Greatest I am wrote:Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Do you agree that the need of Salvation promoted by religions is an evil lie?  

It is a foolish belief and an age old superstition but I would not call it as an evil lie.

The thing is that people only (only) claim the silly and senseless "salvation" after death, and after death is already done and satisfied that every person gets saved on the Judgement Day.

The true salvation of the Gospel and of all scriptures is to be saved here and now in this life time.

As in humanity needs to be saved from ignorance, saved from violence and from cruelty, saved from addictions and from untruths, etc etc etc.

People need to be saved here and now - NOT after death.

This is why the 1st step to salvation is when a person discovers our self to be a sinner who is lost in our own sins and then starts to repent and to make amends and start seeking the truth.

Greatest I am,

You can produce a perfect object, and provide all the means and advice for that object to remain perfect, however, if the advice is ignored or deviated from, then the results will be depending on the deviations.
In the case of mankind the result if ignoring God and going along with Satan can be clearly seen on an on going basis.

Just put your brain in motion, and in the right gear, and consider the state of the world today.

JP Cusick wrote:[

This is why the 1st step to salvation is when a person discovers our self to be a sinner who is lost in our own sins and then starts to repent and to make amends and start seeking the truth.

I liked it all except for this.

You do not seem to recognize that humans produce a hell of a lot more good than evil.

We should be taking bows. Not feeling sorry for ourselves for the few sins we allow ourselves.

Your lost feeling is what religions play off of. That is where the money is. Stop believing lies.

Regards
DL

polyglide wrote:Greatest I am,

You can produce a perfect object, and provide all the means and advice for that object to remain perfect, however, if the advice is ignored or deviated from, then the results will be depending on the deviations.
In the case of mankind the result if ignoring God and going along with Satan can be clearly seen on an on going basis.

Just put your brain in motion, and in the right gear, and consider the state of the world today.

If your brain was in motion, you would wonder why God gave Satan the power to deceive us, --- which is basically your main complaint.

God is ignored because he is a work of fiction and intelligent people know this for the fact that it is.

Regards
DL

Hi Greatest I am,

I should not have been silly enough to intimate your brain is not on the right level and apologise for doing so.

I do go over the top, only because I believe people are being mislead when they have a chance of having everlasting life is available.

Forget about any God or Almighty in the terms of any religion.

Just consider the actual facts regarding the origin of life.

Were the scientists anywhere near giving an explanation of the origin, one would have grounds to consider the alternative to an intelligent force being involved.

There are none that can explain the lack of a continual evolution from nothing to something.

There would be not millions but a number one could not comprehend, of all sorts of halves and parts and one eyed, two headed, one eared etc; etc; however, all past findings are those of a complete and workable life of some kind or another, with the odd mutation that never developed into anything else.

So I base my opinion on the fact that intelligence far beyond our understanding and capabilities are involved in creation.

Man of course may be able to explain some small parts because even a creator must have used a method or system etc;

However, the real deciding factors for me are the interdependancies that could never have occured by chance, that involve plant and animal life along with mankind being a completely different creation, and with entirely different abilities.

Having decided the above and all the alternatives, my own belief goes along with the Bible teaching, although I do agree there is always matters that turn up that have to be dealt with that at first appear difficult, and need prayer and guidance to overcome.

regards.

Greatest I am wrote:

JP Cusick wrote:This is why the 1st step to salvation is when a person discovers our self to be a sinner who is lost in our own sins and then starts to repent and to make amends and start seeking the truth.

I liked it all except for this.

You do not seem to recognize that humans produce a hell of a lot more good than evil.

We should be taking bows. Not feeling sorry for ourselves for the few sins we allow ourselves.

Your lost feeling is what religions play off of. That is where the money is. Stop believing lies.

For my faith to be based in truth then I have to reject the claims from the common orthodox Christianity, which you fail to do.

You continually base your disbelief and your rebellion against the doctrines of mainstream religion and I agree with that, but the truth and reality are not trapped by the interpretations of the mainstream.

Humanity is evil (sinful) through our widespread violence and injustices and ignorance and barbarism and that makes each of us as sinners.

Plus any person can look at our own life and see where we willfully participated in the evils in our own life and in our own family and our own community and so yes we have to see that we our self is a sinner that needs to repent and to make amends.

The fact (as you say) that you see "more good than evil" means that you have accepted the evils (the sinning) as acceptable.

When we see our self as a sinner (as I did) then the sinning is no longer seen as acceptable and we must work against the evils.

Greatest I am wrote:
God is ignored because he is a work of fiction and intelligent people know this for the fact that it is.  

It is a worldly kind of intelligence which ignores God, and that is why the world is so cold and cruel.

But it is a huge mistake to view God as irrelevant based on humans who ignore God, because the real Creator-Father-God is not ignoring us, and the real God is actively involved in humanity and God is the ultimate power which ultimately rules in the affairs of mankind.

polyglide wrote:Hi Greatest I am,

I believe people are being mislead when they have a chance of having everlasting life is available.

So for your reward of the lie of everlasting life is what causes you to accept an immoral creed.

I give 0 respect to such an immoral view.

Regards
DL

JP Cusick wrote:[

But it is a huge mistake to view God as irrelevant based on humans who ignore God, because the real Creator-Father-God is not ignoring us, and the real God is actively involved in humanity and God is the ultimate power which ultimately rules in the affairs of mankind.

Really?

What have you seen God do?

That aside. Your idea that we do more evil than good is not confirmed by statistics.

You ignore reality to create your own.

If not, start quoting reality and not just your poor opinion.

Regards
DL

Greatest I am wrote:
Really?

What have you seen God do?

I see God all the time in so many ways, but a person has to have "eyes that see" (spiritual vision).

There are books which describe in detail some really cool stuff done and doing by God but I do not expect you to appreciate such as that.

Still what God has done is the truest proof of a real living God, so one great book with an online text is here = US & Britain in Prophesy.

Other examples are as in President Lincoln seeing God in the Civil War, and true words in this song = "Mine Eyes Have Seen the Glory... ", and people who have the vision could see God on the beaches of Normandy in WWII, and I say we can see God in the Big-Bang because that is scientific proof that there really was a CREATION day.  

Greatest I am wrote:
That aside. Your idea that we do more evil than good is not confirmed by statistics.  

You ignore reality to create your own.

If not, start quoting reality and not just your poor opinion.  

Your hostile words demonstrate that you refuse to see - but the truth is still standing visible.

The judging of things as "good or bad" (good or evil) is just repeating the same poison from the garden of Eden as told in Genesis 2:17, so your own words are an example of God ruling over every person, and you are spiritually dead.

Greatest I am,

I feel you have to personally seek the truth rather than anything esle.

We are all subjected to all kinds of information and laws etc;, and eventually when one grows up and experiences many different events and opinions, it is only then that one can make a calculated opinion on which to base ones life.

I have gone through many times of doubt, however, every one of my doubts have been explained in one way or another through prayer.

But the greatest comfort in the knowledge that God is the creator is when I sit on a hill side and contemplate all the wonders before me, and have to have a little laugh when I think many people would call you mental if you said even the most basic thing manufactured by man had just evolved on it's own.

polyglide wrote:

Greatest I am,

I feel you have to personally seek the truth rather than anything esle.

I have sought Gnosis and found all the personal information I need.

You should seek it instead of being an idol worshiper.

We are all subjected to all kinds of information and laws etc;, and eventually when one grows up and experiences many different events and opinions, it is only then that one can make a calculated opinion on which to base ones life.

I have gone through many times of doubt, however, every one of my doubts have been explained in one way or another through prayer.

But the greatest comfort in the knowledge that God is the creator is when I sit on a hill side and contemplate all the wonders before me, and have to have a little laugh when I think many people would call you mental if you said even the most basic thing manufactured by man had just evolved on it's own.    

You say you have knowledge of God when your own bible says that God is unknowable.

Are you lying or is your bible?

Regards
DL

Greatest I am,

I do not recall saying I know all about God or his capabilities.

What I do see and know is his creations.

I also know that he will advise and assist in many ways if approached in the right manner, and with the heart rather than selfishness involved.

I have a strange feeling that you are not as convinced as you say you are regarding God and creation.

Regards.

polyglide wrote:Greatest I am,

I do not recall saying I know all about God or his capabilities.

What I do see and know is his creations.

I also know that he will advise and assist in many ways if approached in the right manner, and with the heart rather than selfishness involved.

I have a strange feeling that you are not as convinced as you say you are regarding God and creation.

                                                       Regards.

How can you know anything of the unknowable?

Are you lying or is your bible?

Regards
DL

Greatest I am wrote:
You say you have knowledge of God when your own bible says that God is unknowable.

Are you lying or is your bible?  

Neither if them are lying, it is your self who are misrepresenting them both.

The Bible does not say that God is unknowable, and the most basic point and purpose of the Bible is to make God better known.

Duh.

Duh. You lie.

http://biblehub.com/romans/11-33.htm

http://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

Regards
DL

Greatest I am,

If you read all the references you give you will find that they do not say God cannot be known, they explain that his capabilities are beyond our understanding, and what he decides to do on occasions are also complicated as far as our understanding is concerned.

The fact that we who believe in God know he exists explains fully that he is known, this is different from understanding all his capabilities.
Regards.

Yours is quite the ego that says you know more than the ancients did.

Then do what a true believer should be able to do. All the Jesus did and more.

Show your faith or prove your faith is misguided.

Regards
DL

Greatest I am wrote:Duh. You lie.

http://biblehub.com/romans/11-33.htm

http://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2  

It really is rude and uncivil to accuse other people of telling lies.

This is a free discussion board where all of us participate willingly and there is nothing to lie about.

Do you think people here are lying to fool you? well give up your ego trip because nobody is lying.

The links you put do not say as you claim, even if you do interpret those links as saying what you claim, so that does not mean that you tell lies - no - so you might be mistaken or confused or just your opinion, but it does not make yours into a lie.

I say you are wrong, but you are still honest, so you are honestly wrong - but not a lie.

The person "polyglide" gave you a correct response in his comment above, here = https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t1122-is-the-need-of-salvation-an-evil-lie-from-religions#73914

Some things are unknowable yes, but God is not unknowable.

----

Greatest I am wrote:Yours is quite the ego that says you know more than the ancients did.  

The ancients had to look forward in time, while today we look backwards in time.

They had greater vision - we now have more facts - so it is a different perspective.

Greatest I am wrote:
Then do what a true believer should be able to do. All the Jesus did and more.

Show your faith or prove your faith is misguided.  

This is just your arrogance - nobody else.

Lying is usually done to fool people, yes.

In the case of Christians, it is often to hide the fact that they are using pure fantasy thinking instead of logic and reason.

Faith closes the mind. It is pure idol worship.  

Faith is a way to quit using, "God given" power of Reason and Logic, and cause the faithful to embrace doctrines that moral people reject.

The God of the OT says, “Come now, and let us reason together,” [Isaiah 1]

How can literalists reason with God when they must ignore reason and logic and discard them when turning into literalist?

Those who are literalists can only reply somewhat in the fashion that Martin Luther did.
“Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding.”
“Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.”

This attitude effectively kills all worthy communication that non-theists can have with theist. Faith closes the mind as it is pure idol worship.

Literalism is an evil practice that hides the true messages of myths. We cannot show our faith based friends that they are wrong through their faith colored glasses. Their faith also plugs their ears.

If your faith preached a moral theology not based on substitutionary atonement, then I would listen closer but it and you do not so get behind me Satan.

Regards
DL

Greatest I am wrote:
The God of the OT says, “Come now, and let us reason together,” [Isaiah 1]

How can literalists reason with God when they must ignore reason and logic and discard them when turning into literalist?  

Yes - the literalist are hard to deal with, and I reject the literalist too.

So let us reason together.

JP Cusick wrote:Yes - the literalist are hard to deal with, and I reject the literalist too.

So let us reason together.

You reject a literal and real Jesus do you?

Regards
DL

Greatest I am wrote:
You reject a literal and real Jesus do you?  

I did not say that, but I do reject lots of the Gospel text as being unsound.

As like this one section at the end of Mark 16:8 is untrue, as the NIV declares =  "The earliest manuscripts and some other ancient witnesses do not have verses 9–20."

And lots more of the Bible is just not credible or not true.

For myself a literal Jesus is not a big deal, but I accept that Jesus (real name Yesu) is real enough for me.

JP Cusick wrote:For myself a literal Jesus is not a big deal, but I accept that Jesus (real name Yesu) is real enough for me.

"Yes - the literalist are hard to deal with, and I reject the literalist too."

Except for the literal bits that suit the Jesus or God you have invented for yourself.

Regards
DL