Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

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The right of the Tory party have an elitist aristocratic arrogance that I'm sure many in Britain's middle classes feel.

The working man and woman in this country means nothing to them.

Nothing the Tory's do has anything to do with expense, because we are a very wealthy country, look at overseas expenditure.

The Tory's are at the very top of our class system, the middle classes want to be there, and our lower classes havent got a chance.

The Tory's want to keep the status quo, and they will throw everything at you to keep the status quo, because they dont wont the average Brit to become one of them.

This pensions crisis is based on class and privilige, it is not about expense.

The Tory's will always be successful at driving wedges between the old and the young, between the public and the private, because Britain's working class consolidation has gone

I believe our class system is at the root of Britain's ills.

What say you ?

blue. The main economic event of the 1970s was the overnight quadrupling of the price of oil by our friends in the Middle East. That had a devastating effect on inflation. It also made coal miners realise how valuable they were, and with a Tory government in power which believed in “market forces”, who could blame them? Miners in the UK were being paid £60 a week, while those in Germany were receiving £200 a week at that time.

With rampant inflation - which was neither the fault of the Tory government of 1970-74 or the Labour one which followed it - the unions did what they are in business to do, which is to try and protect the living standards of their members. For the sake of accuracy, I must point out that the 3-day week was introduced by the Tories in December 1973, taking full effect in January 1974. The power cuts came during the miners’ strike – when the Tories were in power. Labour returned to office in March 1974.

You asked me to discuss ‘class’ with you last week but I haven’t had the time yet to tackle such a complicated issue. Suffice is to say that, without recourse to sociology books, when I take my dog for a walk, I often cross a main road from one housing estate to another, and they are like two nations. (I think Disraeli wrote something about that...)

Good post, Ivan. Some very pertinent points there.

blueturando wrote:Ivanhoe, a product of pure envy, why should a working man voting Tory be classed as scum, similar to Blue I grew up on a council estate in Leeds and went

to a secondary modern (pre-comprehensive). Started work at 15 as an apprentice engineer subsidised by my parents (both solid labour supporters). Joined the army, took numerous management courses and seminars (all in my own time), ran garages on behalf of large franchises, taught NVQ's at level 4 to those in need. Had my own garage and now work in Central London.
Being called scum for supporting a government that wants people to get off their arses would/could be offensive if stated by somebody that holds just a smidgeon of my respect, fortunately you don't fall into that bracket. Is tomorrow your last signing on day before Christmas?.

Well said tlttf.......Maybe some of the posters on here seem to be the spoilt little brats who just got whatever they wanted from their parents (the something for nothing crowd) As for me I worked from the age of 13 doing various part time jobs as my mother couldn't afford to give us kids pocket money. This is not a sob story, but it taught me that you dont get something for nothing, you have to work and earn it. I took any crappy jobs I could get when I left school during the recession in 83, then studied and worked my way up through my career.

And this is what Thatcher + my mother taught me.....You have to get off your backside and work for what you get. Don't expect the state or your parents to provide for you. I have full admiration for aspirational people who want to better themselves and if they become wealthy via those aspirations and hard work then good luck to them...No jealousy here!!! Not so keen on people who just inherit wealth and then think that gives them status, I have no time for those people.

The mixed message I got from Labour was that the state is more important than anything else and if you are in the private sector then we don't really care much for you, but we are happy to keep increasing your taxes to pay for more and more government workers or government waste ( I am not confusing the two) Without aspirational working or middle class people the government of any colour would not be able top function and there would be no public sector....See communism for an example of where this fails.

I say mixed message because I thought Blair was a refreshing change for Labour and he did change many things for the better until the Iraq was and then it all went t*ts up. I think his ego got too big and thought he could do whatever he wanted...as did Thatcher over the Poll tax. These things came back to bite both is the butt. Anyone who thinks Britain was better under Labour in the 70's before Maggie must be mad, or living in denial........Strike after strike, 3 day week, regular power cuts, loss making business. The country was SICK and the unions were out of control.

I am not sure what the class system is beyond the aristocrisy at one end and the under class at the other. Inbetween you just have people who want to better themselves for their familes.......is that such a bad thing? Wanting to be successful, happy and be able to support your children or aging parents ect. I will always support a political party who will encourage me or my children to do better and not fall into the mire of mediocracy

Okay, Tory supporters and the Tory's themselves have got people in two black and white groups. Those who are aspirational, and those who are unemployed are wasters and scroungers.

Okay, so forgetting for one moment all about the short sited bigotry from these right wingers, here are three reasons why I loathe Margaret Thatcher.

As a matter of policy she broke the link that kept the basic State pension rising in line with male averaghe earnings. And yes, im thinking of the elderly, and not myself, this is something alien to the Torys who are self interest mad.

As a matter of policy, Council houses were sold of for a pittance, but no new council houses were built, hence homelessness today is beyond crisis point.

As a matter of policy, Thatcher privatised our Utilities, hurting the poor of this country beyond media recognition.

Since Thatcher, Britain has become the laughing stock of Europe because our State pensions are the laughing stock of Europe. Our housing is vastly more expensive than Europe. And our minimum wage is pathetic compared to Europe's.

Thatcher destoyed the soul of Britain due to greed and self interest.

And anybody who wanted to better themselves, does not need any Government to help them.

Aye - she made a desert and called it freedom.

So people should get off their arse and work those fine upstanding people of the Tory part say, surly that is a joke, it's the Tories that have put them on their arse's in the first place. They are making hundreds of thousands redundent, without any other jobs to go to. School kids after years sitting on their arse at a desk are leaving school to sit on their arse at home, over a million youngsters out of work because there is no work for them to go too. For them that want to go on to futher education, like the University, the Tories have made it financialy impossible. After getting a degree in what ever they are studying, there is no guarantee of a job, and they are left with a big debt to pay. The people who are making all these decisions had there education free right to the end.
The Tories don't like strikers even though they are mainly the cause of them going on strike. People don't go on strike lightly, they suffer from strikes also, they still have bills to pay. As an ex-miner i know all about strikes and what effect it as on families and communities, Thatcher destroyed communities the vindictive bitch, she encourage people to buy their council house, then put them all out of work, coal, steel, shipbuilding, closed down. This has a knock on effect on firms that supplies those industries, putting more people out of work. Then Norman Tebbitt tells people to get on their bikes and look for work, i suppose sitting on a bike is a form being on your arse too. Talk is cheap, doing things top prevent these things happening seems to be too hard to do for the Tories, so they just continue to shoot their mouth off.

In one, jackthelad.

This is why regard the right of the Tory party and their mindless suppoorters, as scum of the earth.

I will always support a political party who will encourage me or my children to do better and not fall into the mire of mediocracy

The vast, vast majority of us will never transcend mediocrity, blue. I know that's a bitter pill to swallow, but it is still nonetheless true. Many will try to be truly successful, most will fail. Instead, that same majority will work a middling, non-glamorous job earning a middling income. They'll go to work, do the same thing most every day, come home and carry out a highly regimented routine. They won't be curing cancer, sending probes to Mars, saving lives, brokering peace in far away lands, or living like rock stars. That is the face of mediocrity - the average person. Even those with astounding talents will often never lead an astounding life for there simply isn't enough room for everyone to win the proverbial lottery.

A government - any government - that caters to the top 5% is not a true democracy. A government that wants people to "get off their arses" is a government espousing futility. It would be like pushing and prodding the entire Thames River to fill a thimble without a drop spilled. There has to be a mechanism to protect and acknowledge the working class instead of always trying to push them to bigger and (presumably) better things. The work performed by the least among us is no less important than the work performed by CEOs, bankers, and politicians - and perhaps more so - for the working class are often the ones who keep society running, providing the goods and services that make the top 5% so wealthy.

Both American conservatives and British Tories who punch a time clock every day are blinded by the illusion that they, too, someday can eat at the same table as the aristocracy. Perhaps if they give the blue bloods a little more money, a little more power, a little more influence, they'll finally pull out a chair for the up-and-comers. Sometimes, it does happen, and there are plenty of "pulled myself up by my bootstraps and became successful" stories out there to inspire others - but just enough. Most people, the working class, do not have the cash to take risky gambles opening up their own businesses, playing the stock market, or investing. They have more pressing matters like staying alive, and that is where most of their money goes.

Not everyone even desires to play by the high-stakes, high-stress rules of the rat race. Many would rather be spending their time raising their children properly and spending quality time with friends and loved ones instead of "wasting" their lives working 60+ hours a week ladder-climbing in the corporate world. I think many are content with that, and as the avarice of youth gives way to the temperance of age, the next shiny toy holds less and less appeal. The Law of Diminishing Returns makes itself felt most profoundly when trying to buy happiness.

Thus to claim that the "whining" taking place by the lefties is a product of envy is a massive assumption - the age-old assumption borne of hubris that allows one to believe everyone else wants to be just like them. With my disability, I have been forcibly removed from the rat race; I can not participate even if I wished to. Once I put down the raw ambition that drives others to succeed - often requiring the sacrifice of that which makes life truly worth living - I watch those around me scurry hither and yon always complaining about not enough time, and I feel no envy whatsoever. That does not stop me from being a lefty. There's your anecdotal evidence for the evening.

Shirina wrote:

I will always support a political party who will encourage me or my children to do better and not fall into the mire of mediocracy

The vast, vast majority of us will never transcend mediocrity, blue. I know that's a bitter pill to swallow, but it is still nonetheless true. Many will try to be truly successful, most will fail. Instead, that same majority will work a middling, non-glamorous job earning a middling income. They'll go to work, do the same thing most every day, come home and carry out a highly regimented routine. They won't be curing cancer, sending probes to Mars, saving lives, brokering peace in far away lands, or living like rock stars. That is the face of mediocrity - the average person. Even those with astounding talents will often never lead an astounding life for there simply isn't enough room for everyone to win the proverbial lottery.

A government - any government - that caters to the top 5% is not a true democracy. A government that wants people to "get off their arses" is a government espousing futility. It would be like pushing and prodding the entire Thames River to fill a thimble without a drop spilled. There has to be a mechanism to protect and acknowledge the working class instead of always trying to push them to bigger and (presumably) better things. The work performed by the least among us is no less important than the work performed by CEOs, bankers, and politicians - and perhaps more so - for the working class are often the ones who keep society running, providing the goods and services that make the top 5% so wealthy.

Both American conservatives and British Tories who punch a time clock every day are blinded by the illusion that they, too, someday can eat at the same table as the aristocracy. Perhaps if they give the blue bloods a little more money, a little more power, a little more influence, they'll finally pull out a chair for the up-and-comers. Sometimes, it does happen, and there are plenty of "pulled myself up by my bootstraps and became successful" stories out there to inspire others - but just enough. Most people, the working class, do not have the cash to take risky gambles opening up their own businesses, playing the stock market, or investing. They have more pressing matters like staying alive, and that is where most of their money goes.

Not everyone even desires to play by the high-stakes, high-stress rules of the rat race. Many would rather be spending their time raising their children properly and spending quality time with friends and loved ones instead of "wasting" their lives working 60+ hours a week ladder-climbing in the corporate world. I think many are content with that, and as the avarice of youth gives way to the temperance of age, the next shiny toy holds less and less appeal. The Law of Diminishing Returns makes itself felt most profoundly when trying to buy happiness.

Thus to claim that the "whining" taking place by the lefties is a product of envy is a massive assumption - the age-old assumption borne of hubris that allows one to believe everyone else wants to be just like them. With my disability, I have been forcibly removed from the rat race; I can not participate even if I wished to. Once I put down the raw ambition that drives others to succeed - often requiring the sacrifice of that which makes life truly worth living - I watch those around me scurry hither and yon always complaining about not enough time, and I feel no envy whatsoever. That does not stop me from being a lefty. There's your anecdotal evidence for the evening.

Shirina, Those who support the right of the Tory's, are living an illusion. It is childish. The merit of a man or woman in this life is the way he / she thinks about their fellows. Far too many ordinary working class Tory's are snobbishly ashamed of their fellows, and this in turn breeds bigoted arrogance.

Shirina, Your written piece is fantastic.

Shirina, Those who support the right of the Tory's, are living an illusion. It is childish. The merit of a man or woman in this life is the way he / she thinks about their fellows. Far too many ordinary working class Tory's are snobbishly ashamed of their fellows, and this in turn breeds bigoted arrogance.

American conservatives, many of them working class (or even living in poverty!) endorse policies that take from the poor and give to the rich. One of the major gripes by their ilk concern the poor paying no income tax. Never mind the irrefutable statistic that the top 1% (300,000 people) make more money than the bottom 150 million people combined. I long ago predicted that the conservatives would eat their own eventually, and if you peruse American political threads, the feast has finally begun. It used to be a simple matter of conservatives hating on the poor, always believing that every last one of them - regardless of ability, talent, or physical health - are all a bunch of lazy freeloaders. But then they began upping the ante. After the poor had been put in their place, they started hating on government workers. Teachers bore the brunt of it first, but it quickly moved to policemen and firefighters. The irony is that, during 9/11, police officers and firefighters were regaled as heroes. Now ... they are merely parasites on society living off the taxpayer dime. From that, their hatred spread to unions and anyone who is a member of one - which includes many working class and low-income earners. But wait, there's more! Recently, the conservatives have been attacking the middle class, as well, claiming they have an "entitlement mentality" and their standard of living ought to decrease (to save money for the wealthy of course).

Wait ... the middle class? Well, who's left that isn't deserving of conservative hatred? Why, the wealthy, of course! Some of them early in Obama's presidency even predicted that there would be a revolution to overthrow Obama to prevent his "socialist" dreams from materializing. Strange, that .... a revolution started by the poor and working class conservatives to overthrow the government so that the wealthy can have more money at their own expense? Now when, I beg, has such a revolution ever happened in the last 100,000 years? Never. Not once. This is how deluded they are; more to the point, they even believe that most of America agrees with them! Ha! Ha! Ha!

Shirina, Your written piece is fantastic.

Many thanks!

Good posts, Shirina.

I would like to second Ivanhoe's Last Post Re Sharina. There are some things Sharina's views and mine are totally opposed, but politically she is right on, the button. Well said Sharina.

Before Thatcher when we Britain had a vibrant manufacturing sector, it was in the interest of the rich and powerful to have a populace earning money, in order to buy the goods, and that system worked very well. Now that we have lost most of that manufacturing and have turned to invisible earnings like Banking and Insurance, the fields the Tories go to once booted out of office or come from prior to taking office, they don't need the plebs walking round with what they see as their money in the pockets of the lesser beings, as all the silly gits will do is to spend it on foreign goods and foreign holidays ,if indeed one can be afforded. The old law of supply and demand are gone, as this post Thatcher Country has materialy phuck all to supply any more.

bobby wrote:Before Thatcher when we Britain had a vibrant manufacturing sector, it was in the interest of the rich and powerful to have a populace earning money, in order to buy the goods, and that system worked very well. Now that we have lost most of that manufacturing and have turned to invisible earnings like Banking and Insurance, the fields the Tories go to once booted out of office or come from prior to taking office, they don't need the plebs walking round with what they see as their money in the pockets of the lesser beings, as all the silly gits will do is to spend it on foreign goods and foreign holidays ,if indeed one can be afforded. The old law of supply and demand are gone, as this post Thatcher Country has materialy phuck all to supply any more.

Good posting. But could not understand this line.

///as this post Thatcher Country has materialy phuck all to supply any more//

As usual, well written Shirina, I don't always agree with your views but they're worth the reading.

Good posting. But could not understand this line.

///as this post Thatcher Country has materialy phuck all to supply any more//.
Ivanhoe


I think it is easy to understand, we manufacture very little now to sell abroud. This miserable shower is following in Maggies footsteps, we have a company that as been sold down the river. This government his giving contracts to German firms instead of British firms, resulting in British workers getting laid off. Bombadier is quite capeable off doing the job, the Germans will buy Bombadier chassis for the work, but Bombadier needs the full contract to keep our workers employed. The Tories sold of British Rail Engineering to Bombadier, now they stab them in the back by giving contracts to the Germans. Anti European, who the hell does the Tories think they are kidding, they have sold most of our utility companies to European countries.

Hello Ivanhoe. It means that since (post) Thatcher we have nothing left to sell. Of course I am forgetting Admiralty Arch, Then it will be Tower Bridge, Nelsons Column (but not to the Froggies), The Tower of London and I expect evan Hadrians wall will end up surrounding some rich geezers vast estate. There are already moves afoot to flog off Dover to the Frogs. Nothing is safe in Tory hands.
Some on these boards go on about sovereignty but what will that mean when there is nothing left to be sovereign over.

bobby wrote:Hello Ivanhoe. It means that since (post) Thatcher we have nothing left to sell. Of course I am forgetting Admiralty Arch, Then it will be Tower Bridge, Nelsons Column (but not to the Froggies), The Tower of London and I expect evan Hadrians wall will end up surrounding some rich geezers vast estate. There are already moves afoot to flog off Dover to the Frogs. Nothing is safe in Tory hands.
Some on these boards go on about sovereignty but what will that mean when there is nothing left to be sovereign over.

Why do you so ignorantly refer to the French as frogs ?. Aside from that 10 out of 10 for you posting.

"Why do you so ignorantly refer to the French as frogs ?. Aside from that 10 out of 10 for you posting".

Its quite simple really, its because I dont like them very much. I dont like their arrogance, I dont like their Food, their wine is second rate, and I dont like their cars. Allthough my current buiness interests are in England and Italy, the first of my overseas property aquisitions is in France, and I still have it. I used to spend quite a bit of time there, and found the people very arrogant, in they seem to think they are superior to us. I dont mind a bit of arrogance, but only if there is something to be arrogant about, They the FROGS have nothing but arrogance for arrogance sake. Before you start calling people ignorant, find out something about them first, as it seems you are being the ignorant one in this case.
I see you dont take homage at anyone calling Thatcher or Cameron unspeakable names, which leaves your indignity a tad weak.
I speak from personal experience, not ignorance. By the way do you want to buy a house in Lower Normandie.

Everyone knows that the Frogs go back to speaking English amongst themselves, as soon as we've moved out of earshot.

Everyone knows that the Frogs go back to speaking English amongst themselves, as soon as we've moved out of earshot.

LOL!

Shirina wrote:

Everyone knows that the Frogs go back to speaking English amongst themselves, as soon as we've moved out of earshot.

LOL!

That's the Welsh, mun! All English know that.

very good OW, but how would you know that.

bobby wrote:
"Why do you so ignorantly refer to the French as frogs ?. Aside from that 10 out of 10 for you posting".

Its quite simple really, its because I dont like them very much. I dont like their arrogance, I dont like their Food, their wine is second rate, and I dont like their cars. Allthough my current buiness interests are in England and Italy, the first of my overseas property aquisitions is in France, and I still have it. I used to spend quite a bit of time there, and found the people very arrogant, in they seem to think they are superior to us. I dont mind a bit of arrogance, but only if there is something to be arrogant about, They the FROGS have nothing but arrogance for arrogance sake. Before you start calling people ignorant, find out something about them first, as it seems you are being the ignorant one in this case.
I see you dont take homage at anyone calling Thatcher or Cameron unspeakable names, which leaves your indignity a tad weak.
I speak from personal experience, not ignorance. By the way do you want to buy a house in Lower Normandie.

I am British born and bred, yet I believe we Brit's leave the French standing when it comes to arrogance.

Well, obviously you have to have a reason for that. Which we so obviously DO have.

very good OW, but how would you know that.

He was peeping on the frogs?

Okay, bad pun, yeah I know.

Etats Unie, null pointes.

oftenwrong wrote:Etats Unie, null pointes.

I had one of them, but the legs fell off "lol".

Ivanhoe wrote
"I am British born and bred, yet I believe we Brit's leave the French standing when it comes to arrogance."
And of course you are entitled to your oppinion, as I am entitled to mine,
I am half English and half Italian, and my oppinion is that the British have much in our history to be proud and perhaps even arrogant about, whereas the Frogs, since The allmost Italian Napolione Bonoparte (Italian spelling, had he have been born 1 month earlier, he would have been Italian) they have done very little but complain, They complained in the trenches in the first world war, and even went on strike, there are more cases against France in the European courts than the rest of the EU put together, purely because they want and always did want it all their own way. If you purchase any electrical goods in France, you will very rarely find the opperating instructions in English, every other language but English "why". I had a punch up with a couple of frogs on a golf course in Bagnoles Normandie. Whilst I was taking my second shot, a ball landed about 6 feet away from my wife. I let the two geezers following me know of my displeasure, threw their ball back and continued, after a couple more holes, both of them must have taken their shots simultaniously, as two balls landed in my vicinity at the same time. again I took their golf balls over to them gave them back and gave them both a slap or three or more, with that they went to the club office complained to the bloke in charge, who came over ans asked myself and my wife to leave. when I asked him why I was being kicked off he went into a whole titade of anti Anglais nonsence, we left, the two Frogs continued their game "why. At the evacuation of Dunkirk, several thousand of their surrender monkeys where taken off the beaches along side British, Belgium and others, British small boat owners risked everything to get these swine to England, of the many thousands that got to England, only 144, not 144 thousand not 1,440 just 144 took part in the D-Day landings, whilst British, American , Canadian and some others invaded France to liberate their Country. Those who didn't take part in the landings went back to France preveously, gave themselves up and finished the war working for the Totd organisation helping the Germans to build deffences for use against the Ally's. So no I dont like the effing Frogs and probably never will, and will continue to call them anything I please despite your delicate nature, sorry but there it is.

A lot of sweeping generalisations, and stereotyping, going on methinks.

Anyway let's get back on topic.....the british caste system - oops sorry, class system.

For the record, I have every respect for the true European's.

They do not have the entrenched class system we do.

Now, I agree with sickchip, let's get back on track.

Now, I agree with sickchip, let's get back on track.

Not until I have recieved an appology for your calling me ignorant.

Following our annual Family Party yesterday, I take stock and prepare for the upcoming New Year. I start by telling Mrs Hornby that 2012 is definitely the time for men to reassert their dominant position in the household and for their word to once again have the principal influence domestically.

I do all this as I take the little lady a cup of tea in bed and decide whether to finish the tidying up after a late finish last night before I start to vacuum the carpets , or whether taking my daughter to a hairdresser's appointment takes priority.

Ok - maybe 2013 then...

But you can go back to leaving the seat up as soon as you like.

oftenwrong wrote:But you can go back to leaving the seat up as soon as you like.

It's not worth the grief!

Returning to the subject.....

The OECD's latest report on rising inequality finds the bottom 30% with just 3% of UK wealth, while the top third commands 75%. The IFS predicts another 600,000 poor children in the next two years, but Cameron and Clegg still promise social mobility, knowing the IFS says it is already reversing. As Warren Buffet says of the class war: "My class has won”.

Inevitably. You can never trump an Ace if you're not holding any cards.

There can be NO perfect political party - they don't exist. Remember Labour 1997 and Blair? Things Can Only Get Better? What Happened?

Labour's drive to get equality for all, an equal society failed. Now, as demonstrated by the endless threads on this forum, David Cameron is deeply unpopular whatever he does. Why have we become so cynical of politicians? What is this perfect country/society we are all trying to create? Which country/society in the world is perfect?

Most working class people now have an aspiration to being middle class. They distance themselves from a working class identity, and are not interested in being represented as part of a working class they imagine.
IMO our obsession with class and rich and poor is all getting us nowhere in this country.
I think the sooner we all accept there will always be good and bad, rich and poor, equal and unequal, we can all move on, sadly it wont happen.

Many believe that the Torys represent Landowner thieves and Business who want cheap labour, but many also believe Labour once a good party are now totally corrupt and out of date with real working class concerns.
I'd hate to think what would happen if we elected a Government that didn't go some way towards protecting the interests of big business - given that they're the ones who actually employ all those working-class people you supposedly care about. If it weren't for those businesses, there wouldn't be a working class: they'd be the unemployed class instead.

And who do you count as "the middle class"?

Things Can Only Get Better? What Happened?

They did get better, much better:-

- Uninterrupted economic growth from 1997 to 2008
- Longest period of sustained low inflation since the 1960s
- Home ownership up by more than a million
- Minimum wage introduced and increased
- Minimum Income Guarantee for working families
- Nearly 3 million more people in work
- ‘New Deal’ for young unemployed
- Entitlement to 28 days paid leave annually
- Trebled spending on NHS
- 85,000 more nurses and 32,000 more doctors
- Brought back matrons to hospital wards
- Free breast cancer screening for all women aged between 50-70
- Set up NHS Direct offering free convenient patient advice
- More than doubled spending on education
- Over 36,000 more teachers in England and 274,000 more support staff and teaching assistants.
- Nursery school entitlement for all three and four year olds
- Free fruit for most four to six year-olds at school
- Child benefit increased by 26% in real terms since 1997
- Set up Child Trust Funds
- Brought over 1 million social homes up to standard
- Minimum Income Guarantee for pensioners
- Winter fuel payments to OAPs
- Free prescriptions and eye tests for everyone over the age of 60
- Free TV licences for over 75s
- Free bus passes for pensioners
- Reduced VAT on gas and electricity from 8% to 5%
- Cut standard rate of income tax from 23p in 1997 to 20p (lowest since the 1930s)
- Free admission to museums and galleries
- 14,000 more police
- Brokered peace in Northern Ireland
- Banned smoking in public places
- Cleanest rivers, beaches, drinking water and air since before the industrial revolution
- Banned driving when using a mobile phone
- Abolished foxhunting
- Banned fur farming and the testing of cosmetics on animals
- Introduced civil partnerships
- Restored city-wide government to London
- Cleared most hereditary peers out of House of Lords

With all that you would expect a landslide election victory?????

Ivan....when there is a global economic boom all those things are easy to pay for....but what happens when the bubble bursts as it has now globally?

Left, Centre and Right governments are all having to make the same decisions on spending cuts...as would Labour if they were in power today

Whatever happened to the dividend from North Sea Oil?