Is Britain's class system at the root of all our problems?

First topic message reminder :

The right of the Tory party have an elitist aristocratic arrogance that I'm sure many in Britain's middle classes feel.

The working man and woman in this country means nothing to them.

Nothing the Tory's do has anything to do with expense, because we are a very wealthy country, look at overseas expenditure.

The Tory's are at the very top of our class system, the middle classes want to be there, and our lower classes havent got a chance.

The Tory's want to keep the status quo, and they will throw everything at you to keep the status quo, because they dont wont the average Brit to become one of them.

This pensions crisis is based on class and privilige, it is not about expense.

The Tory's will always be successful at driving wedges between the old and the young, between the public and the private, because Britain's working class consolidation has gone

I believe our class system is at the root of Britain's ills.

What say you ?

Whatever happened to the dividend from North Sea Oil?

blue. I agree there was a global economic boom, but had the Tories been in power, they wouldn't have done all those 'social' things, they don't believe in them. For example, they've never liked the NHS, opposed its very inception back in 1948 and are doing their best to destroy it with back door privatisation now, despite their election promise not to touch it. The Tories would have used the boom to cut the top rate of Income Tax, as William Hague was advocating when he was party leader.

Yes, there would have been cuts if Labour had won the last election, but not at the same pace and not on the same scale. Labour has advocated more borrowing to be used to create growth in the economy. That has to be a better way of doing things than cutting payments to disabled children, sending people who are receiving chemotherapy for work eligibility tests, and removing the Disability Living Allowance of sick people, which in some cases was allowing them to continue working. And it might be a good idea if the very rich, whether it be Philip Green or a company like Vodaphone, paid a lot more tax on the profits which they make in this country.

Please read this:-
http://diaryofabenefitscrounger.blogspot.com/2011/12/very-definition-of-irony.html

Ivan wrote:

Things Can Only Get Better? What Happened?

They did get better, much better:-

- Uninterrupted economic growth from 1997 to 2008
- Longest period of sustained low inflation since the 1960s
- Home ownership up by more than a million
- Minimum wage introduced and increased
- Minimum Income Guarantee for working families
- Nearly 3 million more people in work
- ‘New Deal’ for young unemployed
- Entitlement to 28 days paid leave annually
- Trebled spending on NHS
- 85,000 more nurses and 32,000 more doctors
- Brought back matrons to hospital wards
- Free breast cancer screening for all women aged between 50-70
- Set up NHS Direct offering free convenient patient advice
- More than doubled spending on education
- Over 36,000 more teachers in England and 274,000 more support staff and teaching assistants.
- Nursery school entitlement for all three and four year olds
- Free fruit for most four to six year-olds at school
- Child benefit increased by 26% in real terms since 1997
- Set up Child Trust Funds
- Brought over 1 million social homes up to standard
- Minimum Income Guarantee for pensioners
- Winter fuel payments to OAPs
- Free prescriptions and eye tests for everyone over the age of 60
- Free TV licences for over 75s
- Free bus passes for pensioners
- Reduced VAT on gas and electricity from 8% to 5%
- Cut standard rate of income tax from 23p in 1997 to 20p (lowest since the 1930s)
- Free admission to museums and galleries
- 14,000 more police
- Brokered peace in Northern Ireland
- Banned smoking in public places
- Cleanest rivers, beaches, drinking water and air since before the industrial revolution
- Banned driving when using a mobile phone
- Abolished foxhunting
- Banned fur farming and the testing of cosmetics on animals
- Introduced civil partnerships
- Restored city-wide government to London
- Cleared most hereditary peers out of House of Lords

And the one important thing that they forgot to do.............................Pay the bill!!!! And now we have to.

They did pay the bill. Our debt as a proportion of GDP was lower in 2008 than it had been in 1997. What they forgot to do was nationalise the banks before they were forced to because of the bankers' greed and irresponsibility.

Ivan wrote:They did pay the bill. Our debt as a proportion of GDP was lower in 2008 than it had been in 1997. What they forgot to do was nationalise the banks before they were forced to because of the bankers' greed and irresponsibility.

You must be forgetting the schools and hospitals that were built under PFI

oftenwrong wrote:Whatever happened to the dividend from North Sea Oil?

Quite a bit of it was used to pay previous debts.

There are three classes in our class system, they are US, THEM, and THOSE, US, are what they call the working class, THEM, are those that have all the money but do very little for it. Then we have THOSE, they are the ones that think they are to good to belong to US, but who are not good enough or rich enough to belong to THEM. The Tory party consists of THEM, and a smattering of THOSE, the Lib/Dems, consist mainly of THOSE, though some aspire to become one of THEM. One Lib/Dem that springs to mind is Clegg, the leader of the Lib/Dems, why else would he form an alliance with the Tory Party.

What we British refer to as "the class system" is a cloak for what in other Countries is the naked greed of those who have seized control. There will be no English version of the Arab Spring, because our Leaders have had 500 years to establish themselves in the corridors of power, and domination is exercised subtly, by nods and winks that never appear in a minuted record of proceedings.
Grab people by the wallet, and their hearts and minds will follow.

Grab people by the wallet, and their hearts and minds will follow.

Peculiar, that this came up on my e-mail just today!! - - - -



How true this is....
At first I thought this was funny.... Then I realised the awful truth.
Be sure to read all the way to the end!


Tax his land,
Tax his bed,
Tax the table
At which he's fed.

Tax his work,
Tax his pay,
He works for peanuts
Anyway!

Tax his cow,
Tax his goat,
Tax his pants,
Tax his coat.

Tax his tobacco,
Tax his drink,
Tax him if he
Tries to think.

Tax his car,
Tax his gas,
Find other ways
To tax his ass.

Tax all he has
Then let him know
That you won't be done
Till he has no dough.

When he screams and hollers;
Then tax him some more,
Tax him till
He's good and sore.

Then tax his coffin,
Tax his grave,
Tax the sod in
Which he's laid.

When he's gone,
Do not relax,
It's time to apply
The inheritance tax.

Accounts Receivable Tax
Airline surcharge tax
Airline Fuel Tax
Airport Maintenance Tax
Building Permit Tax
Cigarette Tax
Corporate Income Tax
Goods and Services Tax (GST)
Death Tax
Driving Permit Tax
Environmental Tax (Fee)
Excise Taxes
Income Tax
Fishing License Tax
Food License Tax
Petrol Tax (too much per litre)
Gross Receipts Tax
Health Tax
Inheritance Tax
Interest Tax
Heating Tax

Lighting Tax


Cooking Tax
Liquor Tax
Luxury Taxes
Marriage License Tax
Medicare Tax
Mortgage Tax
Personal Income Tax
Property Tax
Poverty Tax
Prescription Drug Tax
Real Estate Tax
Recreational Vehicle Tax
Retail Sales Tax
Service Charge Tax
School Tax
Telephone Tax
Vehicle License Registration Tax
Vehicle Sales Tax
Water Tax
Workers Compensation Tax

And Now they want a blooming Carbon Tax!

STILL THINK THIS IS FUNNY?


Not one of these taxes existed in the UK 100 years ago, & our nation was one of the most prosperous in the world...



We had absolutely no national debt, had a large middle class,

a huge manufacturing base, and Mum stayed home to raise the kids.

What in the Hell happened?



Could it be the lying parasitic politicians wasting our money?



Oh, and don't forget the relatively new bank charges....
And we all know what we think of Bankers.

I hope this goes around the UK at least 1000 times!!!

YOU can help it get there!

Nice one astra.

Look Out - Diane's About
(msn)

" Is my mouth big enough to put my foot in...?"

I did find it particularly hypocritical that a Tory MP - Nadhim Zahawi - should demand her resignation, and I've 'tweeted' him and told him as much.

No doubt Mr Zahawi has no problems with Boris Johnson being the Tory Mayor of London despite being on record as saying that black people are “flag-waving piccaninnies with water melon faces", that “if left to their own devices the natives of Uganda would rely on nothing but the instant carbohydrate gratification of the plantain”, that South Africa under Nelson Mandela's leadership was a "tyranny of black rule", and that the people of Papua New Guinea have “orgies of cannibalism and chief-killing”.

What the good lady should have said is that it's the Tories (whatever the colour of their skin) who specialise in "divide and rule" - employed against the 'benefit scroungers', private sector against public sector, and most of all, rich against everyone else.

kentdougal. Why the vitriol? If you work (and I'm sure you do), would you like someone to refer to your mistress (or wife) in such a way? What about if I referred to your wife as a twin of the boil on my bottom? What if I actually 'knew' your partner before you and made it all public via Cutting Edge? Would it help make my point? We really do need a more mature approach.

In other words, grow up.[/quote]
Well here's another lefty crawled out of the wood work after all the vitriol spewed on this obviously far left site you have the gall to accuse me. Try reading the rest of the rubbish on this thread and all the others before accusing me of vitriol. And by the way Blair is a lying cheating war criminal and so is his wife

kentdougal says,
And by the way Blair is a lying cheating war criminal and so is his wife

How do you come to the conclusion that Cherie Blair is a war criminal, she is just a lawyer for god's sake. No powers of government, now powers to start a war, not even a little skirmish, i have read some stupid comments, but that one takes the biscuit. I gather by most of your comments that you are a Tory voter, well then, your comment does not surprise me. No sense ever comes out of a tory's mouth.

Britain's class system is being used as an EXCUSE for all our problems.

Who was it said "I cannot be racist because I am Black!!"


A few years ago now, but can anyone recall that outburst - it WAS a female!

As predicted, Diane has made a timely and utterly insincere apology which of course enables the Left to now proclaim "no harm done" and "time to move on".... until a Tory MP makes some similarly foolish comments and then of course they’ll make sure it’ll drag on and on.

Boris Johnson has said far worse things, and I don't recall any Tories demanding his resignation. Jeremy Clarkson advocated mass murder on prime time television, but did any Tories demand that he was sacked? Not a chance from those hypocrites!

The class system?

IVAN....I am not saying Diane Abbott should resign or be sacked, but you seem to be defending her comments? Do you think she was right in what she said?

PS....I dont agree with Boris's comments either.....if he made them as you said

blue. Boris Johnson most certainly did make those comments. They're well documented and I'm not in the habit of posting anything libellous; for a start, I'm not rich enough to defend any action against me! It's also true that Johnson is a thief, who stole an item from the home of Tariq Aziz in Iraq and was ordered by the Met to return it.

Clearly Diane Abbott's comments were unwise in the PC world in which we now live (even if she was referring to the 19th century), and in the environment which saw Alan Hansen being castigated for calling someone "coloured" recently. My annoyance is with the hypocrisy of Tories such as Nadhim Zahawi MP who were calling for Abbott to be sacked yet are quite happy for Boris Johnson to represent their party in a very senior role.

Ivan....well that's the problem with British Politics....Both Labour and the Tories would have reacted in the same way to these comments.

The comments were no big deal to me, but I am sure if someone in the Tory party had said Black people like to divide and rule, we shouldn't play their game...Ms Abbott would have been the most vocal against that, screaming racism from the roof tops

keenobserver1 wrote:
You must be forgetting the schools and hospitals that were built under PFI.

And what's happening now? Osborne has already signed 61 PFI deals, which in total will cost the UK taxpayers £33 billion.

Ivan wrote:

keenobserver1 wrote:
You must be forgetting the schools and hospitals that were built under PFI.

And what's happening now? Osborne has already signed 61 PFI deals, which in total will cost the UK taxpayers £33 billion.

Agreed Ivan, smacks of rank hypocriscy to me. They the Tories, make a great play of critisizing the last Labour government about PFI, then sign up to the same method of procurement.

Hello LWS. Welcome - and thanks for responding to the invitations from Stox and myself!

If you want Tory hypocrisy, there is no better example than the furore over Diane Abbott. This article by Laurie Penny helps to put it into context:-
http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/laurie-penny/2012/01/white-british-power-divide#reader-comments

Ivan wrote:Hello LWS. Welcome - and thanks for responding to the invitations from Stox and myself!

If you want Tory hypocrisy, there is no better example than the furore over Diane Abbott. This article by Laurie Penny helps to put it into context:-
http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/laurie-penny/2012/01/white-british-power-divide#reader-comments

When I heard this piece of news about Diane Abbott, I thought what she should have said was that elite white politicians love to divide and conquer the British, and she would have been bang on.

tlttf wrote:Ivanhoe, a product of pure envy, why should a working man voting Tory be classed as scum, similar to Blue I grew up on a council estate in Leeds and went to a secondary modern (pre-comprehensive). Started work at 15 as an apprentice engineer subsidised by my parents (both solid labour supporters). Joined the army, took numerous management courses and seminars (all in my own time), ran garages on behalf of large franchises, taught NVQ's at level 4 to those in need. Had my own garage and now work in Central London.
Being called scum for supporting a government that wants people to get off their arses would/could be offensive if stated by somebody that holds just a smidgeon of my respect, fortunately you don't fall into that bracket. Is tomorrow your last signing on day before Christmas?

Did I reply to this, ?, that's what im asking myself ?, oh well, here we go then.

The implication as the British citizen that you say you are, is that your fellow British citizens are a lazy bunch of rabble, which is precisely how Thatcher saw the British working classes.

Factually Thatcher took all dignity from the working man by removing jobs, and placing him on welfare, this was at the crux of her mind, even though some working classe people made it through the storm she inflicted onto society.

blueturando wrote:IVAN....I am not saying Diane Abbott should resign or be sacked, but you seem to be defending her comments? Do you think she was right in what she said?

PS....I dont agree with Boris's comments either.....if he made them as you said

Pardon me dear lady, but Diane Abbot was indeed right.

Ivan wrote:The class system?

Yes.

Ivanhoe wrote:The right of the Tory party have an elitist aristocratic arrogance that I'm sure many in Britain's middle classes feel.

The working man and woman in this country means nothing to them.

Nothing the Tory's do has anything to do with expense, because we are a very wealthy country, look at overseas expenditure.

The Tory's are at the very top of our class system, the middle classes want to be there, and our lower classes havent got a chance.

The Tory's want to keep the status quo, and they will throw everything at you to keep the status quo, because they dont wont the average Brit to become one of them.

This pensions crisis is based on class and privilige, it is not about expense.

The Tory's will always be successful at driving wedges between the old and the young, between the public and the private, because Britain's working class consolidation has gone

I believe our class system is at the root of Britain's ills.

What say you ?

I agree 100% with everything you have said , and until we can bring a lot them down a peg or two things will never get any better here is average Brit that does not want to become one of them am I different? and it is there arrogance that puts me right off and people like Cameron wear that arrogance like a badge of honour that sticks in my throat and that wedge you talk of is well and truly driven in between the haves and the have nots.

Thirty wealthy families control the money, and provide the government. Tradesmen are valued, but will never have any political power. Immigrants are tolerated for their skills, but despised by the establishment.

Think you recognise the scenario? It describes Rome in the years just before Christ was born.

There is nothing new under the Sun.

Ivanhoe wrote:

oftenwrong wrote:The backbone of Tory support is aspirational working-class voters.

Yes you are right.

So, when this backbone of working class Tory supporters vote, they are voting for a lack of investment in all our vital services, including education and the NHS, plus eradication of the State pension, and the welfare state.?????????, plus the continuation of coucil house sell offs, without building anymore, plus the privatisation of our Utilities and excessive charges for shareholder profits and bosses salaries, plus a low waged, short term, insecure workforce., ?????????

What are they, completely bonkers ?

I think it is something along those lines Ivanhoe, I just hope the "aspirational Tory voters" are very happy with themselves at what they have unleashed on the rest of the UK and hope they do NOT sleep at night.

Redflag wrote:

Ivanhoe wrote:

oftenwrong wrote:The backbone of Tory support is aspirational working-class voters.

Yes you are right.

So, when this backbone of working class Tory supporters vote, they are voting for a lack of investment in all our vital services, including education and the NHS, plus eradication of the State pension, and the welfare state.?????????, plus the continuation of coucil house sell offs, without building anymore, plus the privatisation of our Utilities and excessive charges for shareholder profits and bosses salaries, plus a low waged, short term, insecure workforce., ?????????

What are they, completely bonkers ?

I think it is something along those lines Ivanhoe, I just hope the "aspirational Tory voters" are very happy with themselves at what they have unleashed on the rest of the UK and hope they do NOT sleep at night.

Redflag, I dont think they "think". What's needed is a short sharp shock, to bring them into reality.

The Reagan/Thatcher propogation of the "Trickle-down" theory of wealth distribution still finds many willing ears.

Even though it's proved to be a load of rowlocks.

blueturando wrote:The Tory's are at the very top of our class system, the middle classes want to be there, and our lower classes havent got a chance.

Ivanhoe and Ivan (A match made in heaven) Please can you expalin to me your definitions of Middle Class and lower class as I am not sure what either of you are talking about?

I might not be able to explain the middle class but can explain working class (IM one) I can also explain the ones THAT THINK THERE TOP CLASS or as we know it they think that they are BETTER than anybody else, And they only reason they agree with Scam..er...ron is they have there INHERITANCE like himself and Gideon thats the reason they do not feel the pinch of the cuts they where born with money and can't or will not understand why it is so hard too work for everything and then have snooty arrogant BACK-STUD comes along and says we are cutting jobs because we can that is why he is so well in with the Bankers and the Financial sector and why they DETEST the public sector.

Working class = those who work primarily for wages (the vast majority in capitalist states).

Ruling class (bourgeoisie) = those who live on the labour of others.

Middle class = those who work for themselves. Nowadays a few self-employed persons and shopkeepers. This class used to include 'professionals' but doesn't now.

What is in people's heads is always just muddle. We should stick to facts.

The facts according to Penderyn that is

As a misguided tory voter (would much prefer a government that brought back hanging and removed benefits to all able to work). I have slowed down my contribution to this (now nearly defunct) left wing back slapping forum. All of you have lived through the chaos that Blair/Brown delivered and hid from the gullible electorate. We now have a government that is having to make hard choices that Milliband and co agree have to be done (some opposition). My apologies to those on benefits that will struggle to get by on the equivelent of £35,000 pa, perhaps a job on the national average will improve their lifestyle.

tlttf wrote:As a misguided tory voter (would much prefer a government that brought back hanging and removed benefits to all able to work). I have slowed down my contribution to this (now nearly defunct) left wing back slapping forum. All of you have lived through the chaos that Blair/Brown delivered and hid from the gullible electorate. We now have a government that is having to make hard choices that Milliband and co agree have to be done (some opposition). My apologies to those on benefits that will struggle to get by on the equivelent of £35,000 pa, perhaps a job on the national average will improve their lifestyle.

Your not only a misguided Tory. Your misguided elsewhere as well.

Everything Blair and Brown undertook under the guize of a Labour governmet from 1997, began under Margaret Thatcher's deregulated free market from the 1980's.

It is gullable people who believe New Labour were a Labour Government.

The deregulation of the banks began in the 80's under Margaret Thatcher, and it's this deregulation that assisted in building up the deficit.

As far as the rest of your posting is concerned re-welfare, I cannot even be bothered to respond.

tittf

I accept your point that there are more people on this forum from a left / leftist point of view than people with a right wing / conservative point of view.

I personaly have attempted ( many times ) to attract more members with opposing views to mine, I have advertised and promoted this forum on websites and web pages of various Conservative groups, also UKIP groups, Lib Dem groups, pro Palestinian groups, pro Israeli groups and many more.

I know that Ivan has done the same, for a short while "Caring Lady" joined in the debates, been a keen supporter of UKIP she made many contributions on the old MSN message board site, I would suggest that rather than abandoning Cutting Edge - stay and fight your corner and have a go at promoting the site and attracting more members.

Ivan wrote:I did find it particularly hypocritical that a Tory MP - Nadhim Zahawi - should demand her resignation, and I've 'tweeted' him and told him as much.

No doubt Mr Zahawi has no problems with Boris Johnson being the Tory Mayor of London despite being on record as saying that black people are “flag-waving piccaninnies with water melon faces", that “if left to their own devices the natives of Uganda would rely on nothing but the instant carbohydrate gratification of the plantain”, that South Africa under Nelson Mandela's leadership was a "tyranny of black rule", and that the people of Papua New Guinea have “orgies of cannibalism and chief-killing”.

What the good lady should have said is that it's the Tories (whatever the colour of their skin) who specialise in "divide and rule" - employed against the 'benefit scroungers', private sector against public sector, and most of all, rich against everyone else.

Thank you for that Ivan some one else was trying to explain the ( divide and rule) BLAME GAME and it has taken your post to let me see the light on this.