Winter Fuel Payment was cut and we let elderly people die from cold and hunger. How can anyone vote Tory?

First topic message reminder :

Did you know that this Tory lead coalition Government have cut the pensioners Winter Fuel Payment, they say, in a bid to save money and cut the Deficit. I write this because the BBC TV media have not picked up on it.

For the over 60’s, the coalition have cut £50 off the payment which was £250 a year, it is now £200, and for the over 80’s they have cut the Winter fuel payment by £100, taking it from £400 to £300. And I have to repeat that this cut in the Winter Fuel payment has not been picked up by the media. And both the cuts, and the media indifference is another national scandal.

The coalition have stated this cut is to save money and cut the Deficit. But it is not to save money. It is because the right wing are driven by an ideological hatred of the welfare state. It is an arrogance against the poor, against the old.

The very existence of the former New Labour Government’s Winter Fuel payment paid to 12 million pensioners, means that the basic State pension is not enough to live on, yet more than 30,000 UK pensioners have died of cold related illnesses since 1997.

The Unions have never taken up this issue up on behalf of Britain’s elderly people, and in my view this is because our elderly people have no labour to withdraw to grab the media’s attention.

Britain’s State retirement pension has lost value over the last 30 years, it is fast diminishing. It is way below the EU average of 57 per cent. The State pension in this country is set at just 17 per cent of average earnings.

The recent public sector pension strikes have proved what can be achieved when people are hit personally, now the public and private sectors should get together and support our elderly people for higher State pensions, even though this does not affect worker’s, yet

This and previous right wing Government’s, including New Labour, have managed to divide British workers from the pensioners of this country, and these Government’s have forced people into self interest. It is time this was reversed. But how to achieve this perpetual me, me, me attitude that has spawned from the Thatcher era around 30 years ago, that’s the problem, because this self interest is inherent.

Britain’s elderly people are the backbone of our nation, in longevity terms alone they have contributed more to this country than other age groups. But the attitude from politicians is as if our elderly people haven’t paid a penny.

But their taxes and NI contributions have indeed been contributed, the Welfare State, and the NHS was founded from pensioners taxes and NI contributions when they were working, yet this generation have fundamentally been ignored since the 80’s, 30 years ago.

The richest people in this country had done extremely well since the 80’s, whereas our elderly people have been robbed of their full State pension rights in the name of political dogma.

Where do we as a nation get off allowing this and previous right wing Government’s to treat our elderly people so badly ?

And it’s this time of year when poverty is keenly felt, but not by our politicians, who in my view have not got a clue.

As Christmas eve draws near and New year’s eve follows, the political history of Britain since the 80’s has frankly reduced been to decadence.

Growing a massive rich and poor divide, which was made worse by the New Labour Government.

And now this Tory lead coalition are hitting the poor again and again and all due to ideology.

I am ashamed of my fellow countrymen and woman for being laid back and reserved when it comes to others suffering from these decadent policies administered by our right wing politicians, who do not have to endure them, themselves.

And now I am worried about how many more elderly people are going to suffer untimely deaths through this cold weather ?

If the Tory’s really wanted to cut the Deficit, there are a number of ways they could achieve this, without hurting the
most vulnerable people in this country.

This Deficit cutting is one big excuse for Cameron to attack Britain’s most vulnerable people, and I cannot believe Nick Clegg is supporting this.

In his keynote speach today Ed Millaband say he might now be able to reverse the winter fuel payment cuts if Labour came back to power....Why not???? And if he doesn't, will that mean you lot stop voting for Labour (Re: How can anyone vote Tory)

blueturando wrote:In his keynote speach today Ed Millaband say he might now be able to reverse the winter fuel payment cuts if Labour came back to power....Why not???? And if he doesn't, will that mean you lot stop voting for Labour (Re: Ho can anyone vote Tory)

I guess this pleases you then, being a Tory ?

Swapping pension rises for an increased winter fuel allowance didn't please me...No.

But since we are there now, I would prefer the allowance levels to remain the same as they were, but means tested

Hello Bluey. For once we are in total agreement.

blueturando wrote:Swapping pension rises for an increased winter fuel allowance didn't please me...No.

But since we are there now, I would prefer the allowance levels to remain the same as they were, but means tested

Yet you supported Margaret Thatcher who broke the State pensions link with average earnings, in 1980 ?????????

There is no government "Pension Pot". There never has been one. Today's pensioners are paid from taxes collected from today's workers.

You either have to possess a crystal ball or have total confidence that future governments will continue the practice when you reach retirement age.

Yes Ivanhoe.....I did.

I do not always agree with everything my Party does, whether that was in Maggie's day (EG: Poll Tax) or with the current lot ( Too much privatisation of the NHS )
I am not blinkered to tow the party line no matter what

blueturando wrote:Yes Ivanhoe.....I did.

I do not always agree with everything my Party does, whether that was in Maggie's day (EG: Poll Tax) or with the current lot ( Too much privatisation of the NHS )
I am not blinkered to tow the party line no matter what

I will never understand why ordinary working class people would vote Tory ?

Because the Tory's were always against the concept of the NHS ????, which was of course born of a Labour Government after the second World War.

Working class voters who elect a Tory are the equivalent of children with their noses pressed to the toyshop window.

I stongly believe the Tories are better than Labour, that why I vote for them.....and many other working class people do.

The reasons I would not vote Labour are many.
Labour bloat the public sector...In some areas this is required, in many others it isn't. You only have to read the jobs page in Guardian to see the ridiculous 'non' jobs advertised.

There is always too much waste with a Labour government. I do believe they are better for the NHS, but it does need reforming. Not in the tory way of creeping privatisation, but we should get a much better value money with the NHS and it hasn't been financially managed very well.

Labour seem to care more for Immigration and minority groups than they do for the people who voted them in power...You don't get much help unless you can tick a few of the Disability/ethnic or sexual diversity boxes on the forms. If you try to discuss or question any of this you are branded racist or homophobic...and the over the top PC aims of people like Harriet Harperson don't do you any favours (Why does she hate men so much?)

On Immigration....everyone new that there would be many more people coming here from eastern europe than the government were saying. I am sure they put a figure of 16,000....everyone scoffed, but Labour continued to lie to us...why would they keep lieing on immigration

Labour likes to Nanny too much......Look at how many new laws came in during new labour...too bureaucratic for business growth and health & safety mad.

I also believe Millaband would get stomped all over by Sarkozy and Merkel in Europe. Any sovereign powers we have left would vanish into the EU melting pot.

There are more but I wont bore you with them now, as I'm going off topic here

blueturando wrote:I stongly believe the Tories are better than Labour, that why I vote for them.....and many other working class people do.

The reasons I would not vote Labour are many.
Labour bloat the public sector...In some areas this is required, in many others it isn't. You only have to read the jobs page in Guardian to see the ridiculous 'non' jobs advertised.

There is always too much waste with a Labour government. I do believe they are better for the NHS, but it does need reforming. Not in the tory way of creeping privatisation, but we should get a much better value money with the NHS and it hasn't been financially managed very well.

Labour seem to care more for Immigration and minority groups than they do for the people who voted them in power...You don't get much help unless you can tick a few of the Disability/ethnic or sexual diversity boxes on the forms. If you try to discuss or question any of this you are branded racist or homophobic...and the over the top PC aims of people like Harriet Harperson don't do you any favours (Why does she hate men so much?)

On Immigration....everyone new that there would be many more people coming here from eastern europe than the government were saying. I am sure they put a figure of 16,000....everyone scoffed, but Labour continued to lie to us...why would they keep lieing on immigration

Labour likes to Nanny too much......Look at how many new laws came in during new labour...too bureaucratic for business growth and health & safety mad.

I also believe Millaband would get stomped all over by Sarkozy and Merkel in Europe. Any sovereign powers we have left would vanish into the EU melting pot.

There are more but I wont bore you with them now, as I'm going off topic here

You are not boring me. I have a question. How long have you been a Tory voter ?

I have supported the Tories since I first took an interest in Politics in 1979, but the 1st time I could legally vote for them was the 87 general election (a year too young in 83)
I did abstain in 1997, bacause the Tories had gotten stale, sleezy and complacent....+ I quite liked what Blair had to say at the time

blueturando wrote:I have supported the Tories since I first took an interest in Politics in 1979, but the 1st time I could legally vote for them was the 87 general election (a year too young in 83)
I did abstain in 1997, bacause the Tories had gotten stale, sleezy and complacent....+ I quite liked what Blair had to say at the time

May I know your age ?

1983 to date = 28 years + 17 ( in order to be 1 year too young in 1983 gives you the age of. 45.

Yes Bobby, you are correct I am 45

bobby wrote:1983 to date = 28 years + 17 ( in order to be 1 year too young in 1983 gives you the age of. 45.

Would you desrcibe yourself as a left wing small "c" Conservative. Or a "right wing" Thatcherite Tory ?

Hello Bluey, I have my uses.

Ivanhoe.......To be honest I do not put myself into a box when it comes to politics, it's a complex issue.

I have a lot of admiration for Thatcher, but there is a fair amout of her policies I did not agree with. At the same time I liked some of the things Labour stood for, but always feel let down by them in the end...and marginalised.

If a Left winger was to listen to my views they would probably accuse me of being right wing. If a right winger heard them they would probably say I am centre/left.......figure that one out

Middle-of-the-roaders get run over.

But I instinctively mistrust ALL politicians. Anyone who wants the job is clearly unsuitable for it.

To give you my view on how things are.....

Many people have legitimate concerns on Immigration, but the issue gets highjacked by nutters like the BNP or EDL, so anyone who tries to seriously address any issues is automatically branded Racist, right wing or fascist.

Many people have legitimate concerns on Student fees and public services cuts, but again any protests seem to get highjacked my trouble makers or ultra left wingers with a political agenda. So as usual the broad range of people in the middle (and I think that would include most of us on this forum) are silenced or classified with the nutters

blueturando wrote:Ivanhoe.......To be honest I do not put myself into a box when it comes to politics, it's a complex issue.

I have a lot of admiration for Thatcher, but there is a fair amout of her policies I did not agree with. At the same time I liked some of the things Labour stood for, but always feel let down by them in the end...and marginalised.

If a Left winger was to listen to my views they would probably accuse me of being right wing. If a right winger heard them they would probably say I am centre/left.......figure that one out

This is interesting, because it isnt a complex issue, its a fair question.

Your either a left of centre small "c" Conservative, the type of which died when Ted Heath passed away. Or your a right winger.

Please tell me what policies of Thatcher's you did not agree with ?. I am seriously interested.

blueturando wrote:To give you my view on how things are.....

Many people have legitimate concerns on Immigration, but the issue gets highjacked by nutters like the BNP or EDL, so anyone who tries to seriously address any issues is automatically branded Racist, right wing or fascist.

Many people have legitimate concerns on Student fees and public services cuts, but again any protests seem to get highjacked my trouble makers or ultra left wingers with a political agenda. So as usual the broad range of people in the middle (and I think that would include most of us on this forum) are silenced or classified with the nutters

While im waiting for your policies of Thatcher's you didnt agree with, I will say that immigration is because we are connected to Europe. This is called "freedom of movement in employment", ie we can go work in European countries if we wish to. This is not to say im for or against the EU.

I also believe very strongly that the anti European's are hitting the wrong target, instead of hitting out at immigrant's for working for less and taking our jobs, they should be out there protresting against our own Government's legislation on Breitain's pay and conditions. We cannot blame immigrants for our own crap pay and conditions.

In a country with our legitimate wealth, there should not have to be cuts, this not a left or right wing view, it's my view, a common sense view, and Students certainly should not have to fund their own tuition feese. When they have studied, what they have studied will be for the benefit of our own countrey, so our own country should fund Students tution feese care of GNP spending ( Gross National Product ).

It was not so long ago that officers and ratings in the British Army and Royal Navy (the RAF had not been invented yet) had to pay for their own uniforms and weapons.


Are we going back to that?

astra wrote:It was not so long ago that officers and ratings in the British Army and Royal Navy (the RAF had not been invented yet) had to pay for their own uniforms and weapons.


Are we going back to that?

There is a good chance of that and if we are attacked it might be up too DADS ARMY to defend us.

I think 1919 was a VERY long time ago.

A message from our vainglorious leaders:


Times are hard! We're watching the pennies! We simply have to cut things like the winter fuel allowance, public sector jobs (livelihoods), housing benefit,etc.

Surely you understand that we need to build a new trainline that's costing £32billion (probably more).......surely you understand that it's essential and a priority........a priority above and beyond the welfare, health, education, etc of ordinary folk like you.......surely you understand that this £32billion will serve to make a very very small percentage of the populations (primarily business folk) travelling time ever so slightly more convenient and a little more comfy........suely you understand your taxes are being put to good use for the benefit of private companies.....surely you understand that!!?

sickchip wrote:Times are hard! We're watching the pennies! We simply have to cut things like the winter fuel allowance, public sector jobs (livelihoods), housing benefit,etc.

Surely you understand that we need to build a new trainline that's costing £32billion (probably more).......surely you understand that it's essential and a priority........a priority above and beyond the welfare, health, education, etc of ordinary folk like you.......surely you understand that this £32billion will serve to make a very very small percentage of the populations (primarily business folk) travelling time ever so slightly more convenient and a little more comfy........suely you understand your taxes are being put to good use for the benefit of private companies.....surely you understand that!!?

Surely you understand that we Brit's have to be the laughing stock of Europe to put up with this subserviant, crap ?

Ivanhoe....sorry for the delay in answering your question on Thatcher.....I've had a good and long think about it and I can only think of the Poll Tax that I disagreed with

Very true Blue, that policy is what destroyed a great leader. Strangely labour brought it back and called it a council tax. Apparently that makes it o

blueturando wrote:Ivanhoe....sorry for the delay in answering your question on Thatcher.....I've had a good and long think about it and I can only think of the Poll Tax that I disagreed with

Hi, it's okay. But the fact that you had to have a real long think about it says a lot.

Here is what I did'nt like when it comes to Thatcher policies, and in no order of merit. No hard long think here, I just know., instantly.

She sold off council houses, but didnt build any more. Hence homelessness today
She cut the State pensions link to increases in national prosperity. Hence old age poverty today.
She got rid of our manufacturing, and industry, and brought in short term, low waged, insecure jobs.
She privatised our Utilities, hence millions of ordinary people struggle to pay the high charges.

And regarding the dreadful poll tax, this remains with us as Council tax, because this remains an unjust tax not being based on "ability" to pay.

But we have a Tory-led Coalition, so who are the silly bug,
err, people who let THAT happen?

It seems to me that a significant number of voters lurch left when times are good, believing that Labour will spend the money on social improvements to society.
The same voters appear to lurch right again when times are not so good, believing that Labour just cannot undertake the decisions and cuts required to set the country back onto sustainable financial path

Hi Ivanhoe....Just coming back on your Thatcher policies post.

She sold off council houses, but didnt build any more. Hence homelessness today

I think the policy was a great idea and it meant people like my own parents could get onto the property ladder, when they always believed this was out of reach. However I do agree that there has been a serious lack of replacement housing built over the last 25 years or so and this need to be addressed...Now!

She cut the State pensions link to increases in national prosperity. Hence old age poverty today.

Unfortunately I do not know enough about this subject to comment, but I will take your word on this and look into it myself

She got rid of our manufacturing, and industry, and brought in short term, low waged, insecure jobs.

I don't believe she got rid of Manufacturing industries, surely if Private Companies are profitable and successful they would have remained in business. If we are talking about the coal mines, then we all know many of them were not profitable and heavily subsidised. If they were big money makers I'm sure Private companies would have bought them and carried on mining

She privatised our Utilities, hence millions of ordinary people struggle to pay the high charges

Healthy competition makes for higher standards and a better service (in most cases) Think back to the days when all people moaned about was British Rail.
If you just have one man in the Olympic 100 meters final, he doesn't have to break the world record or even try very hard to win the Gold medal. The service the state owned utilities were providing were bad at the very least and woefully under funded......State owned monopolies are an out dated concept

blueturando wrote:Hi Ivanhoe....Just coming back on your Thatcher policies post.

She sold off council houses, but didnt build any more. Hence homelessness today

I think the policy was a great idea and it meant people like my own parents could get onto the property ladder, when they always believed this was out of reach. However I do agree that there has been a serious lack of replacement housing built over the last 25 years or so and this need to be addressed...Now!

She cut the State pensions link to increases in national prosperity. Hence old age poverty today.

Unfortunately I do not know enough about this subject to comment, but I will take your word on this and look into it myself

She got rid of our manufacturing, and industry, and brought in short term, low waged, insecure jobs.

I don't believe she got rid of Manufacturing industries, surely if Private Companies are profitable and successful they would have remained in business. If we are talking about the coal mines, then we all know many of them were not profitable and heavily subsidised. If they were big money makers I'm sure Private companies would have bought them and carried on mining

She privatised our Utilities, hence millions of ordinary people struggle to pay the high charges

Healthy competition makes for higher standards and a better service (in most cases) Think back to the days when all people moaned about was British Rail.
If you just have one man in the Olympic 100 meters final, he doesn't have to break the world record or even try very hard to win the Gold medal. The service the state owned utilities were providing were bad at the very least and woefully under funded......State owned monopolies are an out dated concept

Hi, Council houses were built for people who could not afford to buy. They were not mean't as an opportunist vote grabber as per Thatcher's policy.

And thanks to Thatcher stopping the building of council houses in the 80's, the up and coming generations do now not have the chance or opportunity your parents had. So as stated, selling off council houses was a vote grabbing stunt, which worked, because those self centred tenants who brought their council houses at knock down prices, clearly did not give a fig that future generations would not be able to do the same.

On State pensions. The link with earnings or inflation, whichever the higher, to keep the State pension increasing directly without means testing, was put in place by the Harold Wilson Labour Governmennt in 1974, this was called The National Insurance Act.

This Act was broken when Thatcher broke the link with earnings in 1980, and instead Thatcher linked State pensions to the inflation rate, and then she set in place policies to lower inflation, like creating over 3 million unemployed, by getting rid of our manufacturing bases, and Industry.

Thatcher most certainly did decimate our manufacturing, she as all Tory’s have an ideological hatred of anything state owned or run as it doesn‘t go along with the Tory ideal of a free market economy. One of the ways she did it was to starve the nationalised company’s of investment, run them into the ground, then sell them off cheap to her Tory mates. Another way was to pick a fight with the Unions, then once the damage had been done she pulled the teeth of the Unions by introducing legislation, she openly encouraged people to borrow more than they could afford, so these individuals could not take strike action, and hey presto, she got 3 birds with one stone, she got rid of the nationalised industries, she tamed the Unions and had a subservient population. The only thing was, she never replaced the council homes she sold, and the companies she destroyed where replaces with foreign imports, and from then on all of her shit rolled down hill, and is still rolling.
Today we have a privately owned railway system, but whenever investment is required, its we the taxpayer that has to fork out, irrespective of if we use the trains or not. I cant remember the last time I travelled by train, yet I am expected to pay for them, I wouldn’t mind if they where state owned, but at the time we the taxpayer are having to fund them, the shareholders are still getting their thirty pieces of silver. It can not be right or fair. These are the people who where purchased by the Tories for a bag full of shares in a monopoly as they where when originally sold off.

bluey, you say "think back to the days when all people moaned about was British Rail" Well thank you for that point as it really says it all. People where moaning about British Rail becaus we where satified with having water, gas and electricity we could afford. Now what is it the people are moaning about, I think youll find the railways a tad lower down the list than it once was.

bobby wrote:Thatcher most certainly did decimate our manufacturing, she as all Tory’s have an ideological hatred of anything state owned or run as it doesn‘t go along with the Tory ideal of a free market economy. One of the ways she did it was to starve the nationalised company’s of investment, run them into the ground, then sell them off cheap to her Tory mates. Another way was to pick a fight with the Unions, then once the damage had been done she pulled the teeth of the Unions by introducing legislation, she openly encouraged people to borrow more than they could afford, so these individuals could not take strike action, and hey presto, she got 3 birds with one stone, she got rid of the nationalised industries, she tamed the Unions and had a subservient population. The only thing was, she never replaced the council homes she sold, and the companies she destroyed where replaces with foreign imports, and from then on all of her shit rolled down hill, and is still rolling.
Today we have a privately owned railway system, but whenever investment is required, its we the taxpayer that has to fork out, irrespective of if we use the trains or not. I cant remember the last time I travelled by train, yet I am expected to pay for them, I wouldn’t mind if they where state owned, but at the time we the taxpayer are having to fund them, the shareholders are still getting their thirty pieces of silver. It can not be right or fair. These are the people who where purchased by the Tories for a bag full of shares in a monopoly as they where when originally sold off.

I could not have put it better myself. A brilliant observation.

Before I come back to points made I would just like to say what is your obsession with the Unions? Their actions and attitudes are nearly always politically motivated when the Tories are in Power and most people know this to be the case.

It was the Unions fault Thatcher got elected in the first place. If they hadn't gone strike crazy in 79 Callaghan may have been able to keep inflation under control.

If you think the Unions have no teeth anymore then why didn't New Labour change the laws back during their 13 years in power???

Hi, Council houses were built for people who could not afford to buy. They were not mean't as an opportunist vote grabber as per Thatcher's policy.

Well this policy made it possible for these people to buy, so they could afford it. Again what is it about lefties and Labour that they have to have this state control over people...Is it just a Power trip, or are you trying to keep as many people at the bottom of society as possible

Most of the Thatcher policies you are unhapy with could have been changed or reversed in 13 years of New Labour....why did your party not do this?
Why didn't Labour have a better building program for Council housing during the boom years?
Why didn't Labour give the Unions back their teeth?
Why didn't they re-link the state pension to inflation or earnings, instead of cutting pension increases and replacing that with a winter fuel allowance that many people are in no need of due to their financial position?

Did New Labour fail it's supporters???

sickchip wrote:A message from our vainglorious leaders:


Times are hard! We're watching the pennies! We simply have to cut things like the winter fuel allowance, public sector jobs (livelihoods), housing benefit,etc.

Surely you understand that we need to build a new trainline that's costing £32billion (probably more).......surely you understand that it's essential and a priority........a priority above and beyond the welfare, health, education, etc of ordinary folk like you.......surely you understand that this £32billion will serve to make a very very small percentage of the populations (primarily business folk) travelling time ever so slightly more convenient and a little more comfy........suely you understand your taxes are being put to good use for the benefit of private companies.....surely you understand that!!?

You forgot to mention that the Tory BOYS like a TRAIN SET to play with, and Landsley is going to hand our NHS over to the private sector so that the private sector doctors can play with our NHS Hospitals to do all there private work to save them having to pay for hospital space.