Will the cruel Tory welfare reforms save any money?

First topic message reminder :

My personal opinion is that the current spate of tory reforms to the benefit system are cruel, regressive, and worst of all won't save money (the alleged intention).



In a supposedly modern civilised country one would think housing would be considered a human right.......rather than simply an investment / a chance to make a fast buck.

I note there is talk of a yacht for the biggest benefit claimee of them all. I note over £10billion has been spent on the olympics. I note £32billion is being spent on a high speed rail link (london-birmingham) - this will shave, a no doubt absolutely vita,l 32mins off the journey (essential??!!!) and be used by a miniscule % of the UK population.

How about investing this money in affordable social housing instead? Or do government no longer care to invest in those they view as peasants and serfs?

The tories efforts to turn the nation against those unfortunate enough to find themselves unemployed via vile smears, and an insidious propaganda campaign, are reminiscent of Nazi germany's propaganda campaign against the jews.

Iain Duncan Smith is a disgusting human being and has blood on his hands.

Instead of kicking the weakest targets that can't defend themselves....maybe the Bullingdon bullies should try picking on somebody their own size.....like the bankers, or benefit leeching corporations like Tescos.

They currently resemble a 20st thug stamping on a little girls head.

Welfare is essential and if we are to remain a civilised country we owe it to ourselves to provide for those less fortunate; unless we want to see people starving and homeless turning into savages.

The biggest burden on the UK in recent times has not been the unemployed.....welfare is not a burden - it is an essential expense in a civilised nation.

The biggest burden, and the cause of much unemployment, has been the rich greedy bankers who have cost this country, and us taxpayers, untold £billions in order to benefit a few. They have placed the real burden on the UK.

If only Gideon had presented the VAT on Pasties as a blow against obesity in the lower classes, he might have got away with it.

Like all illness arthritis this budget attacks the walls of the arteries and leaves a rather nasty inflammation that leave the person rather inflamed and rather rheumatic. This was just such a budget. As the tax burden for the super-rich was cut while middle class and working class families pick up the real cost of two years wasted economic Tory lead policy.

As once more the Tory party set out to re-live their failed 1980s Lawson’s trickle-down economic strategy that lead to financial deregulation that exacerbated the UK’s weaknesses and set us on a long term course for the meltdown in 2007. While this time borrowing is out of all control with a further £91 billion added to there ever growing national debt of borrowing without GDP growth. With VAT rise of 20% by in January 2011 all adding to daily hardship of working families. We sew total UK receipts of £592 billion with out going expendititure at £683 billion for 2012/13. With growth at the rheumatic state of 0.8% forecast up from 0.7% pencilled in last November, in what can only be seen as a quite dismal performance by the banal government.

What did the Chancellor say in August last year about America's more balanced deficit plan:
"Those who spent the whole of the past year telling us to follow the American example need to answer this simple question: why has the US economy grown more slowly than the UK economy?"
Well here is the answer The US economy grew at 1.7% last year, twice the rate of ours.


After clawring over the Treassury’s red book it soon becomes very clear that every penny Gideon gives away he clawers it back from someone else. All in all this was a very modest giveaway of just £1.9 billion this year that should Gideon hopes all will be smoothed away by 2016. So after all of this, we can see its peanuts when set against the governments £1 trillion debt pile that this government is adding too fast as it can. We also was told that Manufacturers would double exports to £1tn by the end of the decade. Well this would need to see a doubling of annual exports to 1tn by 2020. And to do that would require a sustainable growth strategy. Something this government has so far failed to bring about at any time in the life of this government so far.

As for the cut in the 50p tax rate to 45p and all the tax loopholes and avoidance we have already have that is morally repugnant. This so-call tax break will do little or nothing to help the economy but will help many people see where this banal governments proprieties lay and its not with them. Even as coalition ministers insist that the rich are being made to pay in other ways, a tax break for people earning over £150,000 a year is emblematic. It is hugely unpopular and seems tailor-made to reinforce public suspicion that Tories cannot resist cosseting tycoons and their City banker backers. However, many in the country, this budget will indicate that the Conservatives within the coalition are reverting to type, eager to help out their friends in the City. Meanwhile, middle-aged workers now face the prospect of a much poorer retirement. They face a triple whammy: the over-65 tax allowance will be scrapped by the time they can claim it. while compulsory pension saving by their employers is deferred and their state pension age could be increased without limit. This is quite some tax raid, compounded by another under-discussed phenomenon: the chancellor is also dragging an extra 300,000 basic-rate taxpayers up into the 40% bracket. So that will go down very well with Tory middle class voters. Thank Gideon for your own goal

So was this a budget for recovery, no this was little more than a budget for second hand Porsche dealers with more benefits for the super-rich. With a city banker on £1 million a year saving £42,500 income tax . But this just goes to show how bankrupt .

George Osborne was fond of saying – wrongly – that the Labour government had failed to fix the roof while the sun was shining. What he is now doing is the equivalent of ripping out the foundations of the house just as the hurricane is about to hit.


At the same time, Whitehall is not persuaded that there is much of a long-term strategy. "He is a shrewd tactician," says one Treasury veteran, who has observed up close how the Chancellor works. "He doesn't think more than a few steps ahead. He doesn't feel he needs to because he's so confident that when the time comes he'll think of something." Osborne is a chancer.
Despite the risks, there is instant political gratification to be had from cutting the top rate of tax. It reinforces the Chancellor's credentials as a torch-bearer for authentic Tourism when the Prime Minister is seen as ideologically contaminated by coalition. As one government adviser puts it: "At a stroke, you buy yourself a lot of room with the right of the party, with donors and with the press. This sums up this whole budget to a T. its not a budget for economic growth at all nor will its cut the national debt. it’s a chancer budget who has very little left in his economic policy.

So are you Happy with an Rheumatic economic budget for the super-rich ?while 99% of the rest of us. Fight to keep our heads above water? If you a Tory the answer will be yes. Out of there blind faith to there 1980s economic dogma that’s already failed last time around

"April is the cruellest month. Unless you've got an income of more than £150,000."

Article by Rachel Reeves:-
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/apr/05/working-family-tax-credits-cut?CMP=twt_gu

Ivan wrote:-
"April is the cruellest month. Unless you've got an income of more than £150,000."
Article by Rachel Reeves:-
[url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/apr/05/working-family-tax-credits-cut?CMP=twt_gu

The whole situation is beyond description.

I wonder if the Government have ever thought of the consequences of starving the masses, for that is what they are doing. I can honestly see a deterioration in health standards, particularly among children through lack of food. Lack of proper sustenance is proved to have a detrimental effect of a childs education and physical growth as well. Increases in illnesses where parents are desperate to support their families. I can see an increase in shoplifting where desperate parents need to satisfy their childrens needs for food and clothing. Who can really blame them. I don't condone it, but where needs must the devil drives. And THEY certainly are. Homelessness for many families, split in 'boarding houses', or accommodation. A increase in suicide rates, already occurring in Greece. An increase in depression, which is almost at epidemic proportions now. And at what a cost in Human misery and in financial terms.

As to the underlined above. NO. And they don't care. Well fed bellies and good accommodation is their right. At least, that's what they think.

I really don't think there's much you can do to people like that. Until Polling Day. All their words, 'for the long term good', fall on deaf ears to the hungry and homeless, and the Government can't see it.
Well, there's none so deaf as those who won't hear. Fortunately deafness is not a barrier to justice, which will have its way.

Phew. Having got that off my chest a quick whisky-and-cocoa and off to bed.

Well at least IDS was totally sincere in his determination to reduce the bill for Benefits.

Ivan wrote:"32 die a week after failing test for new incapacity benefit"

http://blogs.mirror.co.uk/investigations/2012/04/32-die-a-week-after-failing-in.html

Proving the point in the opening post about the tories having blood on their hands! How much longer will the british public tolerate being at the whim of these sadistic, and psychopathic, millionaire toffs?

sickchip wrote:-
How much longer will the British public tolerate being at the whim of these sadistic and psychopathic millionaire toffs?

Most people don’t care about the sick and disabled because most of us aren’t sick and disabled, so hardly anyone is prepared to fight for them. I’m not a religious person, but we’d do well to remember the profound words of the Pastor Martin Niemoeller (1892-1984), who came up against an earlier horde of fascists:-

"First they came for the communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a communist
Then they came for the socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me."

The boss of ATOS, Keith Wilman, gets £800,000 a year for heading up a company that tells terminally ill people, on behalf of our evil government, that they’re fit for work. People with terminal brain tumours are being told to work. There are instances of people who are paralysed down one side and can’t write or speak being declared fit for work.

Take the case of a warehouse worker whose degenerative lung condition forced him to give up work. According to a Citizens Advice Bureau spokesman, his weight dropped to 7st, and he had trouble breathing and walking, but in the medical test for Employment and Support Allowance he was awarded zero points and was told that he would be fit to return to work within three months. Before three months had elapsed he had died.

A woman aged 50 with terminal cancer received a letter from the Department for Work and Pensions saying that following her medical test, she was found fit for work. She was told to attend some gym sessions.

David Cameron is a multimillionaire benefit scrounger who claimed a disability living allowance for his late son, but he's now stopped more deserving cases from receiving help. I can’t express in words my hatred for him and the rest of the arrogant, cruel and bloated scum in his government who are treating people like this and destroying everything that’s decent and worthwhile in the UK.

No doubt a Tory apologist will come along shortly and try to divert our attention by talking about Mandelson’s mortgage application fourteen years ago (which didn’t cost either the taxpayer or sick and disabled people anything).

For more details :-
http://blogs.mirror.co.uk/investigations/2012/04/atos---how-much-grief-can-one.html

Eric Pickles MP (Tory) doing his "bit" for the party in his party political broad cast



Gordon Bennet, I nearly threw the Dog at the telly!

Quote Astra.

Gordon Bennet, I nearly threw the Dog at the telly

Ah. poor telly.

I've given up listening to Tory and Lib Party Political Broadcasts. There's only so much drivel - or do I mean dribble - one can stand. Hans Christian Andersson wrote better fairy stories, and more believable.

As we were discussing.....

Will the cruel Tory welfare reforms save any money?

NO!!



As of - HOW MUCH HAVE THESE "REFORMS" COST IN THE LAST 23 MONTHS?????????

Cruel interview of Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Danny Alexander on BBC PM programme today. Eddie Mayer suggested that the Government appeared to be in chaos, as also commented upon in today's Times Editorial.

What can they mean?

Ah the good old days when *king Brown gave the pensioners 75p and everybody here thought it was good. Strange world innit..

tlttf. Yes, it certainly is, with your selective memory. You've conveniently forgotten the time that Thatcher (who, as Peter Lilley admitted, wanted the state pension "to wither on the vine") gave our senior citizens a 40p rise and Neil Kinnock's father sent it back to her. And she kept it.

They have no social conscience....the very thing that makes us human beings! I hate them! I hate every last thing they stand for, they make me sick! And I will never ever ever forget what they have done to our NHS! People need to wake up, speak up and stand up for those who have no voice! The way we treat the most vulnerable people in our society is what defines us as human!

p.s I'm having a street party when that cow Thatcher croaks! I've already got the paper plates and bunting!

Adele , your taxes will be paying for a state funeral for Mrs T and mine , not good.
4 posts and you have nailed your colours to the mast , good on you, no ambiguity just common sense rhetoric .

Scarecrow wrote:Adele , your taxes will be paying for a state funeral for Mrs T and mine , not good.
4 posts and you have nailed your colours to the mast , good on you, no ambiguity just common sense rhetoric .

I say it like I see it! And I really hope that she get's no state funeral. I fear there will be riots if she is given one! Some of us have very long memories of what her particular brand of venom reaped! *spits* lol

They're going to have to sell timed tickets to all the thousands that will want to dance on that bloody woman's grave.

Apparently you can now buy test tubes online that you can then piddle in, then you pop them in the post and some nice person will deliver said piddle to the creature's grave, where it is deposited on your behalf! Aren't there some enterprising folks about...Maggot should feel so proud! lol

Tories imagine that they are the only ones with enterprise. That might be one exploitation scheme they overlook.

lol I'd imagine so!

astra wrote:Eric Pickles MP (Tory) doing his "bit" for the party in his party political broad cast



Gordon Bennet, I nearly threw the Dog at the telly!

Never heard of an off button, better still, put the sound on mute, it's like watching a silent Charlie Chaplin movie, that goes same for the Lib/Dem party political broadcasts, Clegg wringing his hands, was like watching a Charles Dickins Scrooge story without sound.

Adele Carlyon wrote:Apparently you can now buy test tubes online that you can then piddle in, then you pop them in the post and some nice person will deliver said piddle to the creature's grave, where it is deposited on your behalf! Aren't there some enterprising folks about...Maggot should feel so proud! lol

Shush. We'll be paying VAT on it if 'they' find out.

That'd be vat well spent that would!!! lol

Adele.. "Maggot " very apt. LOL.

I'm glad you liked that Mel! It just came to me while I was sat on the loo!

One does have to admit that there are few more suitable venues at which to contemplate anything to do with Tory administrations...

Agreed phil, they should ALL bog off

No-one expects to be popular in the job of Chancellor of the Exchequer, but Wee Georgie Osborne has by now managed to upset everyone in the Country. Not even Lawson or Lamont achieved that distinction.

Perhaps he doesn't like us.

This is what the tories call saving money.


http://calumslist.org/

...but we should know that it was the previous labour government who gave ATOS a contract with immunity - and instructed them to remove people from benefits.

They also encouraged and then adopted the UNUM cardiff model on which all this is based. In short this states that disability and illness is behavioural and can be overcome with the 'right attitude' - hence the increase in behavioural 'short cut' therapies and the kind of testing ATOS carry out. This gvt.embraced this and have used it to dispossess even more people of essential help.

If you can lift one arm - you can work for instance. That you may have terminal cancer is irrelevant. An arm which can be lifted can clearly hold a phone or even push a brush - if only you think in the right way.

IATOS assessments are not medicals - they are based on a series of questions designed to ignore any underlying medical or physical problems. If you can move about in a motorised chair you are fit for work - despite so few work places having the necessary adaptations or conditions. It is likely that severely disabled will lose DLA.

The ATOS test is like something from a dystopia movie - the assessors are robots who avoid eye contact , do not let people elaborate . They do not consider medical history and consider it ok for a midwife to declare a man with a terminal btain tumour 'fit for work' - thus over riding the opinion of a neurosurgeon.

Its not a medical, its a computer tick box questionaire. Stupid questions, like *do you watch Eastenders* (if you answer yes you are fit for work, btw...as it *proves* you can sit comfortably and concentrate).....an actual example - so you can see the thinking behind this disgraceful treatment of people.

The last Labour Government passed their requirements for ESA results to the DWP,the DWP passed on these requirements to Atos Healthcare who implement a system which delivers these requirements.In this instance the requirements were to deny benefit to 75% of new claimants from 2008.
If the new Coalition Government requirements are the same they will continue as is.


[url=Questions you may be asked? « Dwp examination]Questions you may be asked? « Dwp examination[/url]

If those plans are working, we can expect Gideon's NEXT budget to contain quite a few sweeties for the electorate to suck, approaching a General Election. If the DWP doesn't relieve the pressure on the Benefits liability, then all the Tory dogma was sham.

Ouch!

Atos doctors under investigation could be struck off
Twelve doctors employed by the firm are under investigation by the General Medical Council over allegations of improper conduct. The doctors, who work for Atos Healthcare, a French-owned company recently criticised by MPs for its practices, face being struck off if they are found not to have put the care of patients first.
Last month Atos, whose staff assess around 11,000 benefit claimants a week, was savaged by the cross-party work and pensions select committee.The test is massively flawed. Now it appears that it is being carried out by a large number of doctors who are under serious investigation.

Neil Bateman, a solicitor who handles ESA appeals, said on two occasions his clients had been successful because, among other reasons, the doctor assessing them had qualified in Romania and registered with the GMC but had not been licensed to practise in Britain.

When there is the great incentive of cash for so called doctors to strike incapacitated peope off their benefits, what else are we to expect other than crooked dealings?

Labour may have engaged Atos at some stage in the past, but the Tories have welcomed it's measures knowing full well that there would be genuine cases thrown out along with the so called "fit for work" claimants. What do they care I ask?

People who live in the real world are aware from previous experience that Doctors and Lawyers will close ranks behind a colleague threatened by the other discipline.

oftenwrong wrote:People who live in the real world are aware from previous experience that Doctors and Lawyers will close ranks behind a colleague threatened by the other discipline.

True they do close ranks and I for one dislikes this. as if someone is shown to be at fault they should face up too this. far too many people have had to fight the system for years with in some case using there own money to just get some sort of justice. some of the worst cases have been against NHS Heath trusts.

Is there something a little 'sick' and 'hypocritical' in the fact that ATOS are sponsors of the Paralympics 2012 - given the fact that they are being paid £100million to withdraw benefits from people via a tickbox question sheet designed full of pitfalls to trap victims, declare the unfit fit for work, and inflict unecessary hardship on the most vulnerable?

Very 'sick' and 'hypocritical' Chip. If fact it is utterly disgusting to say the least.

Yes!! It's nice and comforting for me, to know that the £33.00 a week they took off me is going to such a worthwhile cause!

No agrgument with the Paralympics or the participants but I hope these people know the discomfort that is letting them play!


ATOS are paying $100M over 10 years? Can disgusting be added to the list?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/may/21/paralympic-games-organisers-defend-atos-sponsorship

Ian Duncan Smith is only just getting warmed-up. Presumably bored with sticking pins in benefits claimants, he is turning his attention to the Trade Union movement. No tax credits for people on strike. Most humans would be ashamed to have such mean-minded ambition.

What he's attempting to do regarding benefits is to be fair to everybody. However removing benefits from somebody on strike seems a low blow. There is a case however for the unions to pay from the funds they take week in week out. Of course the union leaders don't lose a penny when they call everybody out. Still that's socialism for you?

No, not actually, Landy. The Trade Union movement attempts to level the playing-field between wealthy Employers and wage-slaves.