Will the cruel Tory welfare reforms save any money?

First topic message reminder :

My personal opinion is that the current spate of tory reforms to the benefit system are cruel, regressive, and worst of all won't save money (the alleged intention).



In a supposedly modern civilised country one would think housing would be considered a human right.......rather than simply an investment / a chance to make a fast buck.

I note there is talk of a yacht for the biggest benefit claimee of them all. I note over £10billion has been spent on the olympics. I note £32billion is being spent on a high speed rail link (london-birmingham) - this will shave, a no doubt absolutely vita,l 32mins off the journey (essential??!!!) and be used by a miniscule % of the UK population.

How about investing this money in affordable social housing instead? Or do government no longer care to invest in those they view as peasants and serfs?

The tories efforts to turn the nation against those unfortunate enough to find themselves unemployed via vile smears, and an insidious propaganda campaign, are reminiscent of Nazi germany's propaganda campaign against the jews.

Iain Duncan Smith is a disgusting human being and has blood on his hands.

Instead of kicking the weakest targets that can't defend themselves....maybe the Bullingdon bullies should try picking on somebody their own size.....like the bankers, or benefit leeching corporations like Tescos.

They currently resemble a 20st thug stamping on a little girls head.

Welfare is essential and if we are to remain a civilised country we owe it to ourselves to provide for those less fortunate; unless we want to see people starving and homeless turning into savages.

The biggest burden on the UK in recent times has not been the unemployed.....welfare is not a burden - it is an essential expense in a civilised nation.

The biggest burden, and the cause of much unemployment, has been the rich greedy bankers who have cost this country, and us taxpayers, untold £billions in order to benefit a few. They have placed the real burden on the UK.

We could do worse than start with the Tories' trumpeted "Bonfire of the Quangos". http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1280566/Osborne-unveils-500m-bonfire-quangos.html

Obviously no quangoes have suffered in the making of that promise.

So where are we now? On April 1st. 2013 ANOTHER Quango comes into being, called PHE (Public Health England). Its boss, Duncan Selbie, will be paid £180,000 a year for something. (Mainly embodying the Nanny State).
The job apparently is to encourage local authorities to "deliver services and policies according to local needs."

Thank Heavens for that. Where would we have been otherwise?

The number of households that will be affected by a new £500 a week benefit cap has fallen by over a quarter, according to the Department for Work and Pensions. The government initially estimated that 56,000 households would see their benefits reduced by the policy, losing on average around £93 per week. It now expects 40,000 households to be affected. The department said the change came as more people sought help to get into work.

Jonathan Portes, director of the National Institute of Economic and Social Research, told ‘Today’ presenter Evan Davis: "There is no evidence one way or the other whether there is behavioural change. I think this is, I am afraid, a consistent pattern of trying to draw out of the statistics things which they simply don't show.”

That’s a polite way of saying what we already know – that Iain Duncan Smith is a serial liar.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22133886

But he looks such a jolly fellow!

I wonder if Iain Duncan Smith has read The Psychopath Test by Jon Ronson?

The UK has a dynamic democracy within which self-interest and community play a balancing game. When the Tories are in power they have power that goes with wealth. When Labour are in power they put a lot of time and effort into making laws that will limit the imbalance between rich and poor. This isn't very glamourous and glamourous people can get the attention of plenty of people when they complain about attempts to limit their wealth.

The Tory press launched into its vilification of the poor assault as soon as it came into power. Demonisation of the unemployed is a way to discourage empathy for the victims of this assault on values of common decency and fair play.

There is a gap in the media for an intelligent newspaper that isn't so up itself as the Guardian, but challenges the right wing agenda in a way that catches the real essence of what is happening in the world.

Apathy is the antidote to despair at present.
My mantra, as always is 'What have Labour got to offer that will reduce the deficit and create growth?'.

David Cameron has grown in stature as a world leader since he started, and he is extremely careful to stay on-message. That message was years in the making and landed on all our doorsteps the day after the election - which they won on the basis of lies and false promises as we all know with the benefit of hindsight.

Reducing the deficit does however require that imports are reduced. Free market capitalism means that protectionist job creation can be challenged. Removing the wealth from the majority is one way to reduce national spending. If it leads to a few massacres of the objecting poor then that would appeal to Boris and his cronies immensely, if his own words are anything to go on. Making changes to the way that off-shore wealth is removed from the country will require careful planning, and may not be possible without causing the whole deck of cards to collapse. Social infra-structure depends on oil to move food around, package it safely, and keep things moving. The OPEC countries have us all over a barrel.

It is a big picture and many cogs need to turn to keep it all moving. There is a need to start small and build from new grass roots, in my opinion, even if this requires a voluntary work program to start with. Without the political philosophy to underpin such a notion however people will prefer to stay in bed.

".... a voluntary work program to start with .... "

To start with, there is already in existence a significant network of voluntary programmes organised by Charities and Religious bodies.

e.g. http://www.salvationarmy.org.uk/

When Labour are in power they put a lot of time and effort into making laws that will limit the imbalance between rich and poor. This isn't very glamourous and glamourous people can get the attention of plenty of people when they complain about attempts to limit their wealth.

methought......Please tell me what laws Labour introduced between 97-2010 to limit the imbalance between the rich and poor? I can think of any so I am sure you will enlighten me

Npower: 'no tax for three years'


Npower has admitted it has not paid corporation tax in the UK for three years, saying it has invested "billions" in new power stations and wind technology.

As I have said repeatedly, why cant this evil Tory led Coalition put as much effort in getting taxes that are owed to us as they do in squeezing the poor, sick and elderly. N power say that they have spent billions in investments so should not have to pay any corporation Tax.

This is going on, yet still the stupid Tory supporters will put their mark next to any Tory Candidate in any election.

If these useless Eton Toffs got back what is owed us from themselves and their friends who lets face it are the biggest culprits, there would be no need for any austerity cuts and we could go back to being the civilised country we once where, when we looked after those in need. I personally would happily pay a higher tax rate if I could see a National benefit, but I would fight tooth and nail if these Tory Bastards want more just in order to give themselves a hefty Tax Cut.

Any individual or Company in business is entitled to have the legitimate expenses of running the business to be deducted from the amount for which they would otherwise be liable for tax at 25%.

In the case of large Companies like NPower, they will almost certainly have their Annual Accounts and Tax Return prepared for them by one of the four major Auditors. HMRC have a tendency to take those at face value.

It would make sense if the FULL amount of tax were payable with the declaration, and a rebate voucher available from HMRC acknowledged deductible from the next Return 12 months later. This would provide a breathing-space for any necessary investigations to be carried out.

I think what I had in mind for a voluntary work program was people being paid little more than benefits in start-up businesses, which MAKE stuff. Britain is a nation of service industries, cafes and retail outlets.

There is no sense of where it all comes from, how it is made, by whom and at what cost.

We don't want to be competing with Asian sweat-shops BUT we do need to be using creativity, scientific skills, team-based competition, etc to build even a little bit of self-sufficiency.

Alternative energy businesses have to be so careful not to allow investment by the big energy producers who just want to shut them down. There is a need to start small from a skills-base of relevant education.

We have been bred for compliance, to be dutiful employees. We need to place more emphasis on team competitiveness, creativity and science, together with educating children about the history of ideas and social organization, to get the best out of working age people and keep a moral ethos of cooperation.

The honest ambition of every Tory is to give enough to the Conservative Party to ensure a profit on the deal.

just found this site - worth having a look - reminds us of the reality behind the political posturings of the austerity campaign

http://t.co/4SjiNw2M84

Bedroom Tax victim commits suicide
11 May 2013 20:45
Grandmother who had to pay extra £20 a week throws herself in front of motorway lorry and blames Government in tragic note

Ten days ago Stephanie Bottrill sat in the redbrick terrace house which had been home for 18 years to write notes to her loved ones, the Sunday People reports .

She ripped the pages from a spiral-bound notebook and placed them neatly in little brown envelopes.

There was one for her son. Another for her daughter. Her mother. Friends. And a very special one for the year-old grandson she doted on.

Then in the early hours of last Saturday Stephanie, 53, left her home for the last time, leaving her cat Joey behind as the front-door clicked shut.

She crossed her road in Meriden Drive, Solihull, to drop one of her letters and her house keys through a neighbour’s letterbox. Then she walked 15 minutes through the sleeping estate to Junction 4 of the M6.

And at 6.15am she walked straight into the path of a northbound lorry and was killed instantly. Stephanie Bottrill had become the first known suicide victim of the hated Bedroom Tax.

In the letter to her son, Steven, 27, she had written: “Don’t blame yourself for me ending my life. The only people to blame are the Government.”

Stephanie was tormented over having to find £20 a week to pay for the two under-occupied bedrooms she had been assessed for.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/bedroom-tax-victim-commits-suicide-1883600

The start of clearing out the poor?

Disability Rights: Cornish Councillor Colin Brewer Compares Disabled Children To Deformed Lambs

The Cornish councillor who was re-elected despite saying that disabled children "should be put down because they cost too much money" has again insisted that there may be a case for killing some disabled children with high support needs.

Speaking to Disability News Service, Colin Brewer said he was not the "ogre" he had been made out to be, adding that constituents in his rural ward had shaken his hand and congratulated him, despite his controversial comments.

Looking for analogies to support his view, Brewer compared disabled children to farmers' treatment of animals, telling the agency: “If they have a misshapen lamb, they get rid of it. They get rid of it. Bang!”

He continued: "We are just animals. He [the farmer] obviously has got a point… You can’t have lambs running around with five legs and two heads.”

Brewer said: “It [the lamb] would be put down, smashed against the wall and be dealt with.”

He said the financial "burden" of the disabled wasn't just his own personal concern”, adding: “If you are talking about giving services to the community or services to the individual, the balance has got to be struck.”

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/05/11/cornish-councillor-disability-colin-brewer-deformed-lambs-_n_3259240.html?utm_hp_ref=uk

More signs that the 'Caring, sharing' Tories are alive and well........

"More signs that the 'Caring, sharing' Tories are alive and well........", continuing their dirty tricks so rudely interrupted in 1997.

astradt1. I’ve been trying to get to the bottom of this story. Colin (sometimes spelt Collin) Brewer resigned as a councillor in February this year after saying that disabled children should be put down. Then he said it was unlikely he would be a candidate in the May elections, adding "I was wrong, I admit it. I will continue to apologise”.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-21612089

Lo and behold, Brewer stood again in this month’s elections, won by two votes (four votes, according to one source) and has now resumed his attacks on the disabled, saying there was a good argument for killing some disabled babies with high support needs, because of the cost of providing them with services.

http://disabilitynewsservice.com/2013/05/colin-brewer-there-is-a-good-argument-for-killing-some-disabled-babies/

Lastly, every reference I’ve found describes Brewer as an independent councillor, both now and before he resigned in February. Maybe I’ve missed something, but I don’t think we should blame this on the Tories unless there is some evidence to that effect.

astradt1 wrote:The start of clearing out the poor?

The poor lorry driver must also count as a victim - and the way these things go, quite possibly literally.

The astonishing thing is to realise that honest hard-working people who want their children to "get on", think that voting Tory will achieve that.

It's always been so, at least in my lifetime - I suspect most of the people I was at school with (working class kids who went to a Grammar School) vote at least Tory if not UKIP.
You seem to get your membership card along with your first white collar job.

Just have to share this - hope it's the right thread.
The gov.uk web site (the one where you have to go to complete claims, update claims, search for jobs etc) is off line - least it was this morning when I tried to log on to help a client - spoke to a DWP drone who told me it's been wonky for TWO days!

That'll be Labour's fault. The mess inherited by the Coalition, you see. Explains everything.

These computer glitches cause hardship because there is no backup plan - if the electronic system doesn't function there is no other way for claimants to get money.
The 'local' system that was put in place to replace community fund moneys is based in a call centre in Newcastle and I believe has made a deal with Argos - so all they can provide is washing machines and the like.
There's no Giro, no emergency payment - no safety net at all as far as I can see.
Even people I've talked to at DWP think it's a shambles.

Next time you hear that slimy toerag Cameron feigning support for our armed services, think of this:-

Benefits crackdown ‘humiliates’ disabled Army war veterans

by Terri Judd and Tom Foot

Degrading back-to-work welfare assessments that are stripping former soldiers of their benefits have been denounced by leading veterans’ charities.

Thousands of ex-servicemen are being pushed to the breadline after being judged fit for work by the government-appointed company ATOS. Severely wounded veterans from Iraq and Afghanistan, who were once entitled to incapacity benefits, are being told they no longer qualify under new assessments carried out by ATOS on behalf of the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP).

Danny Greeno, chief executive of the Veterans Charity, said: “Many of these people are already on the breadline. The majority are suffering with post-traumatic stress disorder. All they want to do is work but they cannot. The challenges they are facing are completely different to other people who are out of work and they need a lot more support.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/benefits-crackdown-humiliates-disabled-army-war-veterans-8633610.html

" Thousands of ex-servicemen are being pushed to the breadline after being judged fit for work by the government-appointed company ATOS..."

And so I say again : where is the Labour Party in banging on about such issues day in and day out? The answer is that they are far too anonymous - and on territory where they could make real headway in gaining public support and - more importantly- in adding to the Tories' disrepute...

Atos Benefits Row: Transplant Patient Linda Wootton Dies After Being Judged 'Fit For Work'

A woman has died only nine days after the government declared her fit for work.

Linda Wootton was dying on a hospital bed as the ruling to remove her benefits came.

Her husband Peter told the Sunday Mirror: "I sat there and listened to my wife drown in her own body fluids. It took half an hour for her to die – and that’s a woman who’s ‘fit for work’. The last months of her life were a misery because she worried about her benefits, feeling useless, like a scrounger."

Mrs Wootton had suffered complications after a heart and lung transplant thirty years earlier and had regular blackouts as well as being on 10 different prescription medications.

Her death certificate listed lung and heart problems, hypertension and chronic renal failure as being responsible for her passing.

Controversial healthcare provider Atos carried out the fit for work test on behalf of the government earlier in April, questioning the 49-year-old with questions as varied as 'can you get dressed' to 'what is 100 minus 25'?

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/05/28/linda-wootton-dies-after-being-judged-fit-for-work_n_3346582.html?utm_hp_ref=uk

Yet another one less claiming benefits...no doubt Dave will be able to brag about this one when he next dares to attend PMQ's......

Obviously it must be Labour's fault if they don't continuously point out the bleedin' obvious of Tory spitefulness.

Phil Hornby wrote:-
where is the Labour Party in banging on about such issues day in and day out?

On Twitter, on people's doorsteps every weekend, and almost certainly on Facebook (though I can't be sure as I don't have an account).

What do you expect the Labour Party to do? Force Rupert Murdoch and 'The Daily Mail' to give prominent coverage of its views? And then there's the BBC, in love with Nigel Farage and run by Tories like Chris Patten. The BBC had a virtual news blackout on the passage of both the welfare bill and the bill which is allowing the privatisation of the NHS. I saw live evidence on Twitter of demonstrations across the country - with disabled people being arrested for obstruction in central London, but their wheelchairs being too large to fit into police vans - and not a word of it was mentioned on the BBC. Did the BBC report what happened to Linda Wootton? Not to my knowledge.

To criticise Labour for "doing nothing" is to play right into Tory hands and to let them know that their sinister control of the media is paying handsome dividends. Welcome to fascist Britain.

Perhaps there's a lesson for some in the Past ....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militant_tendency

Labour doesn't understand the global economy. It wants to bring back keynesian inflation but has to realise that would raise interest repayments on debt even faster, and the national debt is growing like pay-day loan debt, at an exponential rate. Food banks for the poor and rationing for immigrants might reduce the balance of payments deficit a little bit, by stopping poor people from being able to buy any imports.



Still waiting for Labour to have a good idea, though.

Just waiting - and still hoping......

Just a reminder of the thread title:-

Will the cruel Tory welfare reforms save any money?

Okay, Ivan, the cuts to welfare are just the beginning.

They will make a small inroad into cutting the nation's spending on what have always been seen as essential quality of life services. This will allow us, as a nation to give that money instead to the financial institutions who bailed out our banks. Until that monetary system changes Benefits are going to be cut to the bone.


Star Trek - Next Generation, Voyager, etc - seems to have the right idea, ensuring everyone has what they need and works for the benefit of the whole. Or maybe Cuba? A handful of beans and rice anyone? Equal pay for doctors and toilet cleaners?


Frankly I don't know what the alternative is.

http://t.co/YHxBHsKTkx
If anyone thinks that 'austerity' is saving any money, the above blog may provide some evidence to the contrary, looking at the actual costs of many of the measures that are depriving some of the more vulnerable members of society of their dignity, there comfort and in some cases even their lives. The author concludes, by reference to sources such as the Public Accounts Comittee.

public spending is actually 4% higher today that in 2010. We are not experiencing short term disruption to balance the books, we are experiencing the controlled demolition of the welfare state – transferring the UK from a social democracy to a corporate state.

Of course, much of this is interpretation and opinion, but I venture to assert that there's enough hard evidence here to make a strong case for saying that, at the very least, the 'austerity' measures adopted by this government are failing in their stated objective of saving money, or, more strongly put, are part of a deliberate and sustained campaign to destroy the system of social security (in the widest sense) on which we all depend..

Interesting read boatlady. It simply highlights there are very few if any differences between the major parties. The main reason pfi's were used is that the cost could be kept from public scrutiny, making a "Bust" look like a "Boom". Started by the tories and then turned into a mega business by New Labour. Once you understand that nothing will change come 2015, politics becomes easy.

We're seeing the steady introduction of Chinese/asian economics for the UK. Our leaders and captains of industry want to compete with them and have set about creating an improverished, hungry, and desperate labour force.

Whatever happened to the "trickle-down" wealth?

oftenwrong wrote:Whatever happened to the "trickle-down" wealth?

Too many people. There isn't enough to go round.

tlttf wrote:-
Interesting read boatlady. It simply highlights there are very few if any differences between the major parties.

The article which boatlady produced shows nothing of the sort. Labour said all along that this government was cutting too far and too fast, and that the balance between tax increases and spending cuts was wrong, so why don’t you change the record? That ridiculous crap is getting very boring. Try telling us instead that there’s very little difference, if any, between UKIP and the Tory right.

Did you bother, before inflicting your mindless drivel on us, to read Marcus Chown’s article on what the evil bastards in this government are doing to the NHS? No, of course you didn't, too long was it? I suppose in your warped mind there is no difference between 2% private patients in NHS hospitals under Labour and 49% under this bloody shower.

http://www.marcuschown.com/THE%20HEALTH%20AND%20SOCIAL%20CARE%20ACT%20-%20Briefing%20-%20Marcus%20Chown.htm

tlttf
I'm not really very interested in politics - morality and ethics are more my thing.
I don't want to score points, and I don't really care who's in power, as long as they treat us, their employers, fairly and don't sell off all the country's resources.

However, even a political dunce like me has to sit up and notice when, under 'austerity' measures, supposedly designed to SAVE money, and which are definitely depriving a number of people of rights and services they used to depend on, are actually costing the country 4% more.

Don't know how you manage your household budget, but if I'm spending 4% more cash I want 4% more stuff.

http://t.co/exdlWkwJJ6

link to Ekklesia - No money left, or is it just in the wrong places?

An interesting question