Is David Cameron a moron from the outer reaches of the universe? (Part 1)

Ivanhoe wrote:

New Labour under Blair and Brown embraced Thatcher's privatisation, bank deregulation, and a dwindling State including the beginnings of welfare reform.

Thatcher legislation was carefully drafted so as to render any attempt at reversal impossibly expensive.
The bill for compensation alone would have bankrupted the Nation.

I thought most people knew that.

Nothing is expensive in this country while there is the "will" of the Government.

bobby wrote:skwalker said: Indeed they did. It's one reason why I am no fan of New Labour, and campaign constantly for a wholehearted return to traditional Labour values.

Steve, Although I agree with most of what you have to say, I’m afraid I can not go along with you on this one. But there again I guess its all a matter perception. I do not believe that New Labour embraced Thatcher’s free market policies. to refer to allowing a free market to flourish, is sweet FA to do with Thatcher, its been hapening since time began.

What I believe Tony Blair did was to try to Govern for the Country as a whole. What is wrong with British politics (other than the politicians themselves) is that many if not most of the people want a political party that’s suits just them, i.e. Labour for the working classes and the Conservatives for the upper classes. What we need is a Government who will look after the interests of all, and this is what Tony Blair’s New Labour tried to do, with what was known as the Third Way. They helped business to prosper which got unemployment down which means more people paying taxes, more cash for hospitals and schools, minimum wage etc. Tony Blair’s New Labour promised to get rid of Boom and Bust, which was under any Conservative Government part and parcel of Tory Governance, and until the banking crisis, he achieved exactly that, they gave us ten unprecedented years of growth, and a stable economy which in my opinion is a pre requisite to a healthy Nation.

I am aware that the rich did get richer and the divide between rich and poor expanded, but I don’t see that as a major problem so long as those at the bottom are eased up beyond poverty levels, which in the main they where, The minimum wage and pensions went up year on year at least in line with inflation (I believe).

What has since happened under Herr Cameron is that the Conservatives onlybeing in it for themselves and those that directly benefit them, whereas unlike New Labour they are a party with allegiance only to their own and not Britain as a whole, where they are forcing down the ability to live a decent existence for the lower classes, whilst raising their own income to unprecedented high’s.

I honestly believe to call anything New Labour did as Thatcherite is a total misnomer, if that was truly the case New Labour wouldn’t have needed to make any changes in 1997, instead of fulfilling over 80% of their manifesto promises within the first Parliament after 18 years of Tory domination and cruelty.

Traditional Labour values where a part of New Labour but so was a need to join the 20^th century, as good as the old guard Labour politicians where in their day, and I believed in almost all they stood for, we had to join the rest of the world in order to compete.

Unfortunately Thatcher with her necessary war on trades unions went too far where she allowed industry to fail in order to cripple the Trade Union Movement, and did the usual Tory thing of throwing the baby out with the bath water. The Unions where too powerful and thought they where the Governors and they came up against a bitch who cared nothing for those who ended up on the scrap heap so long as she won the war.

So yes for me Tony Blair’s third Way and New Labour was the way to go, as I think was proven by his achievements, and if it wasn’t for the Tory press lying about Brown being the architect of our Financial crash and the Iraq war, Labour would have won the 2010 General Election and we wouldn’t now be having this debate.

I know that Tony Blair had too do what he did to get into power or it would have been a lot longer than 18 years in the clutches of the Tories, as for Gordon Brown being the architect of the crash more like the Maggot for de-regulating the banking sector and knowing that the Tories and the L/Ds kept that going that Labour had maxed out the UKs credit card. I would love to have heard what they would have said if Gordon Brown had told the banks go FCUK Yourself and let them go to the wall just like a lot of businesses have done in the last two& half years thanks to the Incompetence of the dick heads in charge at the moment.

Redflag, New Labour embraced the bank deregulation set in place by Thatcher.

The lot we have in power now are not incompetent. They are running a right wing agenda, and the sooner the British wake up to all of this, over 30 years later, the better.

Ivanhoe wrote:Redflag, New Labour embraced the bank deregulation set in place by Thatcher.

The lot we have in power now are not incompetent. They are running a right wing agenda, and the sooner the British wake up to all of this, over 30 years later, the better.

If they are not Incompetent how come the economy has been flatlining since they came into power, the time your talking about Ivanhoe will be in April when all there nasty cuts come into being we have a lot of Ostriches in the UK, when they do take there heads out of the sand they are in for a large shock.

Redflag, the Tory's on the right wing are not incompetent. They dont really want a good economy, they want mass unemployment as under Thatcher so people can be controlled.

Ostritches is bang on.

Ivanhoe wrote:Redflag, the Tory's on the right wing are not incompetent. They dont really want a good economy, they want mass unemployment as under Thatcher so people can be controlled.

Ostritches is bang on.

What I do not understand Ivanhoe people did not standby when the Poll tax came in, and today we are a lot more informed and are not as soft as in the 1980s plus the media will tell when there is scandals or any shannigans. So why oh why are people sitting on there hands ?

Ivanhoe wrote:-
I would not be surprised if his party did win the next general on a mammoth victory

Here are two articles which suggest the Tories could win in 2015:-

http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2012/12/31/it%E2%80%99s-still-the-economy-stupid-which-is-why-the-two-eds-should-be-worried-about-2013/

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100196361/a-conservative-win-in-2015-isnt-only-possible-right-now-its-the-most-likely-outcome/

On the other hand, this one says the Tories can’t win:-

http://conservativehome.blogs.com/majority_conservatism/2012/12/why-cameron-cant-win-a-majority-in-2015.html

And this one doesn’t hold out much hope for them:-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/matthewd_ancona/9770645/Ditching-their-modernisation-campaign-was-the-Tories-worst-strategic-error-since-the-poll-tax.html

What irony if the result of the next General Election is decided by .........



The Liberal Democratic Party.

oftenwrong wrote:What irony if the result of the next General Election is decided by .........



The Liberal Democratic Party.

Surely not OW the way the by-election and local elections have went since they joined forces with the Tories does not bode well for the L/Ds, a lot of their voters were disgusted with them when they broke their SIGNED Promise to the Uni students.

Redflag wrote:

Ivanhoe wrote:Redflag, New Labour embraced the bank deregulation set in place by Thatcher.

The lot we have in power now are not incompetent. They are running a right wing agenda, and the sooner the British wake up to all of this, over 30 years later, the better.

If they are not Incompetent how come the economy has been flatlining since they came into power, the time your talking about Ivanhoe will be in April when all there nasty cuts come into being we have a lot of Ostriches in the UK, when they do take there heads out of the sand they are in for a large shock.

'Crisis' is extremely useful for the right-wing agenda. They'll pretend and even invent them in order to push through what they want to do - so they certainly won't balk at allowing the current one to run on as long as they think it serves their purposes. They'll only really try to do something to improve the economy when they feel it's absolutely necessary for electoral purposes - and even then, they'll gamble and leave it as long as possible, hoping to fool enough people and to strip as much as they can with the 'crisis' as an excuse.

They'll leave it too long, I believe - because they're arrogant and believe most of us are stupid.

Ivan's excellent posts on neoliberals and 'crisis', as exposed by Naomi Klein's 'The Shock Doctrine', will give you some interesting background - as might a couple of posts of mine:

http://skwalker1964.wordpress.com/2012/08/17/o-canada-when-right-wing-crisis-engineering-came-out-of-the-closet/
http://skwalker1964.wordpress.com/2012/08/27/proven-imf-brings-down-economies-intentionally/

I agree with that the Tories do think anything below them is EFFING STUPID and I hope they do leave it too long to do anything about it. There again Cameron is no different to the Maggot "Unemployment is a Price worth Paying".

Unemployment is a Price worth Paying"

Bang on mate.

Ivanhoe wrote:

Unemployment is a Price worth Paying"

Bang on mate.

Thanks Ivanhoe I know there is a lot that NL did that you do not agree with, but the Labour party is made up of humane beings and humane beings do make mistakes and what the Tories are doing are not mistakes but Tory Ideology.

Bang on Redflag, and re- the media, they are getting away with it. But for how long I have to ask ?

So Dave and Nick have given their review of how they have done over the past tow and a half years, low and behold they give themselves a glowing report.......

Pity they didn't get an independent reviewer to come in a do the job properly...

Danny 'Boy' Alexander has just been on Radio Four trotting out the standard Dave's Prime-ministers Question Time list of 'Achievements' about cutting the deficit by 25%, more private sector jobs, blah, blah, blah.......

Always amazes me how flexible statisitcs can be

boatlady wrote:Always amazes me how flexible statisitcs can be

Of course they are boatlady, just like the Tories saying that benefits have gone up 50% since 2007, but if you take the stats from 2002 that comes down to 10%.

Always amazes me how flexible statisitcs can be

.

They must have learnt from New Labour....select what parts you want counted in the statistics, like NL's immigration and crime stats

Blue, you could save yourself, and other contributors, time by numbering your standard repertoire of caustic comments.

For instance, the message of 2.20 a.m. today could be Number 1, ("I'm too tired to think of anything new, so take it as read that all Politicians are liars.")

You may be pleasantly surprised at how many people agree with you.

blueturando wrote:

Always amazes me how flexible statisitcs can be

.

They must have learnt from New Labour....select what parts you want counted in the statistics, like NL's immigration and crime stats

The Tories have ALWAYS KNOWN how to LIE long before New Labour came along blue, that is one one Qualification you need to join the Tory party.

bluey, Britain has had over 30 years of free market policies starting under Thatcher, then continuing under New Labour, jobs started going then, unemployment started rising, Blair and Brown did nothing fundamental to change things like returning an industry and manufacturing base to this country.

The reason for immigration is because we are linked to Europe, its called "freedom of movement in employment".

In my view Britain should be either fully in the EU or out. But I would not give a vote to the British people because they would not be making an informed and educated decision thanks to our right wing press.

Britain should be industry lead, and not market lead. We also need council houses in this country on mass for people stuck in trap of the means tested high rent sector, of which there are millions.

Ivanhoe said: But I would not give a vote to the British people because they would not be making an informed and educated decision thanks to our right wing press.

What you mean they would think about something, then do bugger all about it. Does that not ring a bell.

You state :Britain should be industry lead, and not market lead.

If we did (and should return to manufacturing) just where would we flog all the goodies we would be manufacturing, and how would we ever get a fair price for those goods without a market to trade in, that is why I took my head out of the sand years ago in the full realisation we need both, manufacturing and a market to sell in, where else do you think the cash will come to pay for the allmost comunist state you seem to desire.

Means testing as you have complained about God knows how many times, is a double edged sword, not only does it see that those who need help get it, but it also see’s that those who don’t need it do not get any extra help, to me its called fairness. That said though if by implementing a means test that is more expensive to administer than the savings it makes, it should be left alone so that the worst off do not lose out.

You are constantly wrong in saying New Labour embraced Thatcher’s free market agenda, what New Labour did was not to put unnecessary obstacles in the way of business in order to help it flourish. How else do you think they reduced the unemployment from over 3,000,000 under the mismanagement of Thatcher then John (fancy a Currey) Major. Just how where we to pull ourselves up from 18 tyrannical Tory years, without earning our way up, and how would that have happened without trading within a market.

We where and are too heavily reliant on the so called invisible earnings, so industry need to be built up, perhaps you may enlighten us with perhaps more than just a punch line as to how that happens without a relatively free market to trade in.

I have said time and again that New Labour wanted to Govern for the sake of all in Britain not just the working classes but Mondeo man as the middle classes became known as. This to me was not a bad thing as it gave us 10 years of unprecedented growth.

You forget when you throw blame at Blair and Brown, it was the Tories who de regulated Banking at almost the same time as they deregulated public transport and sold off all our utilities. So I ask you to throw the blame where it belongs.

Yes OW...I agree, I should have just said all politicians are liars or at very best...economical with the truth.....And for Redflag who lives in a fantasy world, yes that includes your lot too.

Ivanhoe....The arguments are the same as we were having months ago, but the reality is that Britain had to, and still has to modernise our industries to compete on the worlds markets. 30/40 years ago we did not have the emerging markets of Russia, China, India, Brazil etc and the UK was more or less in a bubble when it came to manufacturing exports/imports and what we could charge for our goods. The world has changed my friend and we need to consentrate on areas of expertise where we COULD make money on the world stage. Over priced and heavily subsidised coal and steel is just not possible. Our car manufacturing was poor, expensive and substandard compared with our foreign competitors.

The UK does need a stronger manufacturing base and it has been abandoned by the Tories and New Labour, but we have to be realistic about our place in this world, and the reality is that we cannot compete with countries like China and India in these markets. Unless we pay our workers the same rates and workers in these countries and none of us want that....What would YOUR solution be to this?

As for the EU....Well we could all go on for ever on this one, but I would like to see us get out of the EU because its obvious their long term plan is for a federal EU where faceless politicians lead by Germany will rule over us and we cannot call them to account.

As for immigration?...Well I am fine with it as long as we could have policies in place where EU migrants are not coming to the UK to milk our benefits system and our politicians would be more honest on the numbers...oh and a law to deport illegal immigrants more quickly too...not after the 15th appeal and at great cost to the tax payer. There are certain councils that will now NOT say how much of their social housing stock goes to immigrants because they fear a backlash from people who have been waiting for years for such housing...This is wrong on so many levels

Read Bobbys' post. He is one of the few Labour supporters I know who speaks any sense and lives in the real world

blueturando wrote:Yes OW...I agree, I should have just said all politicians are liars or at very best...economical with the truth.....And for Redflag who lives in a fantasy world, yes that includes your lot too.

Ivanhoe....The arguments are the same as we were having months ago, but the reality is that Britain had to, and still has to modernise our industries to compete on the worlds markets. 30/40 years ago we did not have the emerging markets of Russia, China, India, Brazil etc and the UK was more or less in a bubble when it came to manufacturing exports/imports and what we could charge for our goods. The world has changed my friend and we need to consentrate on areas of expertise where we COULD make money on the world stage. Over priced and heavily subsidised coal and steel is just not possible. Our car manufacturing was poor, expensive and substandard compared with our foreign competitors.

The UK does need a stronger manufacturing base and it has been abandoned by the Tories and New Labour, but we have to be realistic about our place in this world, and the reality is that we cannot compete with countries like China and India in these markets. Unless we pay our workers the same rates and workers in these countries and none of us want that....What would YOUR solution be to this?

As for the EU....Well we could all go on for ever on this one, but I would like to see us get out of the EU because its obvious their long term plan is for a federal EU where faceless politicians lead by Germany will rule over us and we cannot call them to account.

As for immigration?...Well I am fine with it as long as we could have policies in place where EU migrants are not coming to the UK to milk our benefits system and our politicians would be more honest on the numbers...oh and a law to deport illegal immigrants more quickly too...not after the 15th appeal and at great cost to the tax payer. There are certain councils that will now NOT say how much of their social housing stock goes to immigrants because they fear a backlash from people who have been waiting for years for such housing...This is wrong on so many levels

Read Bobbys' post. He is one of the few Labour supporters I know who speaks any sense and lives in the real world

The only oine that is living in a FANTASY WORLD is your EFFING NASTY HERR Cameron I suppose it is OK with you for Cameron to punish the people that his CUTS flung on the DOLE and it is there FAULT there is no jobs for them to go for. Again I suppose its there fault that Giddy Gideon got the economy wrong as and its OK to call everybody that gets Benefits SCROUNGERS when that is GROSSLY UNFAIR and definitely NOT TRUE, I will give you there is some scroungers but there numbers are MINUTE and something needs to be done about this.

As for the cap on benefits of 1% and public sector workers most of public sector workers are on a living wage of around £7.20/50 per hour its higher in London because of the L.W.T. IF your over 25yrs old you get £71.00 PER WEEK that is the difference, so if this gov't wants to bring in the 1% cap they better get a 1% cap put on GAS ELECTRICITY FOOD and everything else that you need to live and NO I do not mean FAGS & BOOZE, because the unemployed do not get DISCOUNT from these services because they are unemployed. There hundreds of thousands of people in part-time jobs not because they want to but that is all there is available if they had full time jobs with a living wage they would not need working tax credits (which is a benefit) and IF this Incompetent gov't had not sacked so many in the public sector they would not have to borrow so much that is only adding to the deficit of the UK.

blueturando wrote:Yes OW...I agree, I should have just said all politicians are liars or at very best...economical with the truth.....And for Redflag who lives in a fantasy world, yes that includes your lot too.

Ivanhoe....The arguments are the same as we were having months ago, but the reality is that Britain had to, and still has to modernise our industries to compete on the worlds markets. 30/40 years ago we did not have the emerging markets of Russia, China, India, Brazil etc and the UK was more or less in a bubble when it came to manufacturing exports/imports and what we could charge for our goods. The world has changed my friend and we need to consentrate on areas of expertise where we COULD make money on the world stage. Over priced and heavily subsidised coal and steel is just not possible. Our car manufacturing was poor, expensive and substandard compared with our foreign competitors.

The UK does need a stronger manufacturing base and it has been abandoned by the Tories and New Labour, but we have to be realistic about our place in this world, and the reality is that we cannot compete with countries like China and India in these markets. Unless we pay our workers the same rates and workers in these countries and none of us want that....What would YOUR solution be to this?

As for the EU....Well we could all go on for ever on this one, but I would like to see us get out of the EU because its obvious their long term plan is for a federal EU where faceless politicians lead by Germany will rule over us and we cannot call them to account.

As for immigration?...Well I am fine with it as long as we could have policies in place where EU migrants are not coming to the UK to milk our benefits system and our politicians would be more honest on the numbers...oh and a law to deport illegal immigrants more quickly too...not after the 15th appeal and at great cost to the tax payer. There are certain councils that will now NOT say how much of their social housing stock goes to immigrants because they fear a backlash from people who have been waiting for years for such housing...This is wrong on so many levels

Read Bobbys' post. He is one of the few Labour supporters I know who speaks any sense and lives in the real world

So by your argument then Bluey, due to having to compete on the world markets, our workers should work for peanuts because this is what you are saying.

And regarding immigrants milking our benefits, what dross you write.

Immigrants coming to this country cant claim any benefits until they have worked for one full year without being unemployed, thus paying a year of NI contributions, and taxes, but then they can only claim one third of what British claimants get when unemployed.

And as for council housing ?. Who was it that stopped building council housing in the 80's ?, Thatcher. And who voted for her during the 80's ?, working class people. So who is responsible for the lack of social housing in this country ?. Working class Tory voters, that's who. And not immigrants.

Posts discussing immigration have been moved to here:-

https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t119-should-immigration-always-be-perceived-as-a-problem

Ivanhoe wrote: So by your argument then Bluey, due to having to compete on the world markets, our workers should work for peanuts because this is what you are saying.

And regarding immigrants milking our benefits, what dross you write.

Immigrants coming to this country cant claim any benefits until they have worked for one full year without being unemployed, thus paying a year of NI contributions, and taxes, but then they can only claim one third of what British claimants get when unemployed.

And as for council housing ?. Who was it that stopped building council housing in the 80's ?, Thatcher. And who voted for her during the 80's ?, working class people. So who is responsible for the lack of social housing in this country ?. Working class Tory voters, that's who. And not immigrants.

Great post Ivanhoe we always get the truth facts and figures from your post and thank you for putting blue back in his box regarding his Lies that he heard in the Daily Fail.

So by your argument then Bluey, due to having to compete on the world markets, our workers should work for peanuts because this is what you are saying.

And regarding immigrants milking our benefits, what dross you write.

Immigrants coming to this country cant claim any benefits until they have worked for one full year without being unemployed, thus paying a year of NI contributions, and taxes, but then they can only claim one third of what British claimants get when unemployed.

And as for council housing ?. Who was it that stopped building council housing in the 80's ?, Thatcher. And who voted for her during the 80's ?, working class people. So who is responsible for the lack of social housing in this country ?. Working class Tory voters, that's who. And not immigrants..

IVANHOE......Lets take each point at a time....

No that's not what I am saying. My argument is that we cannot compete on the world market...Full stop! We rightly have minimum wage and workers rights laws in place within the UK, but because we do the 'right' thing we suffer because no such laws are in place in huge trading countries such as China and therefore our manufactuers cannot compete on pricing and cost implications.. Please enlighten me if I am wrong here.

Immigration and Benefits.....You probably need to do a bit more research here my friend as you are totally wrong (and you are giving little Redflag false hope that he/she has one over on a 'bluenose') If you want to know more details then have a look at the links provided below

http://www.northlanarkshire.gov.uk/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=4227&p=0

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12633382

Council Housing....Yes stock is low, but there are also hundreds of thousands of empty properties that could be used for more social housing and both Tory and Labour governments have been guilty of not building enough social housing and missing promised targets by some way

blueturando wrote: ....our manufactuers cannot compete on pricing and cost implications.. Please enlighten me if I am wrong here.

Ah! So that's why Cameron/Clegg/Osborne are so concerned about returning to Victorian values.
Bring back the dark satanic mills, textile exports and Imperial Preference!

blueturando wrote:-
Council Housing....Yes stock is low, but there are also hundreds of thousands of empty properties that could be used for more social housing and both Tory and Labour governments have been guilty of not building enough social housing and missing promised targets by some way

Bluey, your beloved Thatcher stopped building council houses in the 80's, and Labour were New Labour/Tory through and through.

Ivanhoe wrote:

blueturando wrote:-
Council Housing....Yes stock is low, but there are also hundreds of thousands of empty properties that could be used for more social housing and both Tory and Labour governments have been guilty of not building enough social housing and missing promised targets by some way

Bluey, your beloved Thatcher stopped building council houses in the 80's, and Labour were New Labour/Tory through and through.

Do not forget Ivanhoe and blue it was Thatcher that stared "The Right to Buy" that is where the council house went too, instead of helping people buy a house from a builder.

That's bang on Reflag. Her policy was opportunist.

Shame councile weren't allowed to reinvest the proceeds from selling council houses in more social housing - wouldn't have completely supplied the shortfall, but might have helped.

boatlady wrote:Shame councile weren't allowed to reinvest the proceeds from selling council houses in more social housing - wouldn't have completely supplied the shortfall, but might have helped.

Thatcher wanted to control inflation, she did this by throwing builders and tradesmen on the dole. That's why she did'nt want council houses built.

boatlady wrote:Shame councile weren't allowed to reinvest the proceeds from selling council houses in more social housing - wouldn't have completely supplied the shortfall, but might have helped.

If they had really being interested in letting people buy there homes why not put that money into building more council houses thus keeping up with the need for rental homes.

The right to buy gave many families the only opportunity they would ever get of owning their own house and I am sure there were many, many takers on all sides of the political fence. I am sure like all 'good' lefties that you would prefer that no body owns their own homes so that a leftie power hungry and dictatorial state can control everyone at all times

The crime was to not reinvest the proceeds from these sales into the new building of social housing

No that's not what I am saying. My argument is that we cannot compete on the world market...Full stop! We rightly have minimum wage and workers rights laws in place within the UK, but because we do the 'right' thing we suffer because no such laws are in place in huge trading countries such as China and therefore our manufactuers cannot compete on pricing and cost implications.. Please enlighten me if I am wrong here.

Can any of you come back on this point too as you seem to have overlooked it. There is much talk here on the UKs lost manufacturing industry and the 'evil' tories, but no one here seems to have answers to the problem we have in competing with emerging nations

blueturando wrote:

No that's not what I am saying. My argument is that we cannot compete on the world market...Full stop! We rightly have minimum wage and workers rights laws in place within the UK, but because we do the 'right' thing we suffer because no such laws are in place in huge trading countries such as China and therefore our manufactuers cannot compete on pricing and cost implications.. Please enlighten me if I am wrong here.

Can any of you come back on this point too as you seem to have overlooked it. There is much talk here on the UKs lost manufacturing industry and the 'evil' tories, but no one here seems to have answers to the problem we have in competing with emerging nations

One part of the solution would be preventing companies from moving all their production facilities to cheap countries that lack safety and workers rights. This could be via consumer boycotts and/or by legislation - e.g. government and public institutions only using companies that produce, and pay tax, in the UK. This would bolster the home market, so that more people would be able to afford to buy UK goods and services here. The short-termist, mindless reflex of CEOs to produce in countries that cost less is ultimately self-defeating - because eventually there won't be enough people earning good wages here and in other developed countries to buy what they're offering, however cheap it is.

Another part - which you'll probably hate - is to implement trade tariffs to offset the impact of cheap, sub-ethical products. Someone has to have the guts to buck the trend of globalisation and short-term, destructive greed and set an example of a different way. If the EU, for example, had a strong tariff regime for goods from China etc, it would boost intra-EU trade and manufacturing. It's almost regarded as 'heresy' now, but the world would be a lot better off if everyone operated as good neighbours of enlightened self-interest rather than as dogs all fighting each other in a single pit.

As the old joke goes, 'you wouldn't want to start from here' in trying to build a better system. But it's where we are so the only other alternative is surrender to the hopeless, self-destructive status quo.

blueturando wrote:The right to buy gave many families the only opportunity they would ever get of owning their own house and I am sure there were many, many takers on all sides of the political fence. I am sure like all 'good' lefties that you would prefer that no body owns their own homes so that a leftie power hungry and dictatorial state can control everyone at all times

The crime was to not reinvest the proceeds from these sales into the new building of social housing

Oh god, the usual statement from useless working class Tories.

Yes the "right to buy" was very nice for council tenants then. But what about the fact that Thatcher did not continue building council houses so future generations could enjoy the same "right to buy" ?.

Answer that one bluey ?

Has to be said, the subsequent government also failed to reinvest in Council Housing, but at least they transferred a lot of the crumbling council housing stock over to Housing Associations which provide not-for-profit rented accommodation - social housing in a diffferent guise.Used to provide quite a lot of social support to tenants too.
I don't know for sure, but I bet Housing Associations have been struggling in recent years.