Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Writing for ‘Compass’ in July this year, Lisa Nandy MP said: “For most of my lifetime, politics has been based on a belief that the only way to win elections is to seek out the centre ground, but it is surely an essential plank of a democracy that politicians should provide leadership and not just follow; as Robin Archer of the LSE says, to seek to define and not just seek the centre ground”. She continued by saying that people on the left in politics have to tackle the issues which make us feel uncomfortable – welfare reform, law and order and immigration.
http://www.compassonline.org.uk/news/item.asp?n=13151&offset=50

Let’s tackle the issue of immigration. The right-wing press has been indoctrinating us for years with claims that most immigrants are living on benefits, while at the same time saying that they’ve taken many of our jobs, and of course both scenarios can’t possibly be true. We’re told that the country is already overcrowded; it’s not, only S.E. England is, although we are now the most densely populated country in Europe. We’re told that immigration increases crime (our prisons do indeed hold a disproportionate number of people who weren’t born here) and increases the threat to our security. By increasing the labour force, does immigration suppress wage levels?

In the 1970s, the National Front used to peddle the spurious argument that as there were a million people unemployed in the UK at the time, all we had to do was repatriate a million immigrants and there would be no unemployment. Anyone with half a brain can work out that by reducing the population by a million, you would have a million fewer consumers to buy goods and services, thereby reducing demand and creating unemployment. There would also be a million fewer taxpayers (even those not working pay VAT).

So why have successive UK governments over the last fifty years allowed and even encouraged immigration?
Not out of charity but out of necessity. Firstly, to do jobs which the indigenous population didn’t want to do, or didn’t have the skills to do. The NHS would have collapsed years ago without immigrant doctors and nurses. Secondly, Europe has a declining birth rate, which is threatening to make it difficult to pay for pensions for future generations. Most immigrants are of working age, which means they consume less of the services provided by the state, such as health care and education, and pay more in taxes. Home Office research in 2002 suggested that immigrants paid £2.5bn more in taxes than they took in benefits.

Perhaps if more of us showed a positive attitude to immigrants, welcoming and celebrating diversity instead of perceiving it as ‘a problem’, immigrants might feel less of a need to retreat into ghettos, where some of them succumb to religious fanaticism and terrorism.

The UK immigration, borders authorities have admitted today that the immigration in this country is out of control. Over 1 million are unaccounted for, over 100 thousand assylum seekers are missing and cannot be found, AND even if they were, nothing could be done today as ther is over a ten year backlog

The whole thing is a mess
No use shouting at residents who are "disturbed by eventualities
No use shouting at the illegals and assylum seekers who are in the middle
Why bother shouting at the Politico's when we know fine well that they darned well won't listen!

The immigration Department should be treated the same way that Kenneth Clarke (when Minister for Health in 1990 ish) wanted to treat the NHS

"Just throw the whole thing up in the air and see where the dust settles"

Ivan says a lot of immigrants work in the NHS, doctors, nurses and so on, true, i suppose they are here on work permits, people who have a job to go to. I would question some of their qualifications though and their language skills. But, the illegals, the asylum seekers and others out number them, not many contribute, just bleed the country dry. It is time they all was rounded up, and moved out. Makes you wonder what the border agencys, and immigration authority people are doing to earn their money, we seem to be wasting money there also.

The solution is obvious.

Don't pay benefits to any claimant with a funny name and/or can't instantly say what happened in 1066.

Don't think many will know what happened in 1066, none of us was around at the time. It is rumoured two chaps got into fight, a bloke called Harold and the other fellow called William. A few more people got involved, like present day, they all came tooled up for trouble, resulting with Harold getting an arrow in the eye. The health service wasn't up to much in those days, poor old Harold popped his clogs. The end result was Williams gang, called the Normans then took charge, leaving Harolds gang who were known as the Saxons, (bad losers), to suffer hardship from the Norman crew. Troubled times in England, till a chap called Robin Hood came along to sort things out with his gang, unusual name, they were called The Merry Men, their gang colours were Lincoln Green. Anyway, to cut a long story short, the managed to unite the Saxon and Norman gangs. That is how we became what we are this present day.

Its a good job we weren't beaten by the Spanish mob, we would now be inundated with GAY cavalleros.

At least we have Banco Santander.

If anyone can point to a period in Britains history where there was no immigration to these islands, then I would be interested to know when that was, from the earliest times other races and tribes have come to these shores, and vica versa, there are people in the Galicia region of Spain whos ancestory are ancient British.

Immigration has always been controversial, and sadly immigrants have regularly been accused of everything from taking all the houses, taking all the jobs, living on taxpayers money and even been anti-British and working for some foreign enemy.

For hundreds of years people from elsewhere have done the dirty work in this country, the Irish been the best example, they built our railways, sunk our mines and built our homes and roads in the 1960s when we lived in the good times enjoying full employment.

In the 1950s it was the same, the boom years after the war saw many thousands of immigrants arrive from the Caribbean, they cleaned our hospitals, worked on the underground, did the night shifts at the mail sorting offices - all the positions that were hard to fill, no one wanted these jobs.

If it were not for the immigrants in the 1950s and 1960s our economic growth would not have been what it was, the standard of living would not have risen as fast, our war debts would not have been paid back as quickly and we would have slipped down the league table.

"a period in Britains history where there was no immigration to these islands?"

Immigration was closely controlled between 1939 and 1945.

This from virginmedia.com -

UK Border Force chief suspended
4 November 2011 09:53pm
The head of the UK Border Force has been suspended amid claims that passport checks for non-EU nationals were quietly dropped this summer.

Brodie Clark is one of three senior officials thought to have been suspended while an investigation into the allegations is conducted.

The Home Office refused to comment on a report that guards at the Border Force - part of the UK Border Agency - had been told not to bother with certain passport checks.

But a spokesman said: "Head of UKBA Border Force Brodie Clark has been suspended."

Confirmation of Mr Clark's suspension came after the Daily Mail reported that border checks had been relaxed earlier this year without the knowledge of ministers.

According to the paper, border guards were told not to bother checking biometric chips on the passports of citizens from outside the EU to ensure they are not fraudsters.

The guards were also instructed not to bother checking fingerprints and other personal details against a Home Office database of terror suspects and illegal immigrants, it said.

The chairman of the Home Affairs Select Committee described the suspensions as "extraordinary" and said he would be questioning Home Secretary Theresa May about the issue on Tuesday.

Keith Vaz, a Labour MP, said: "These developments are extraordinary in that they involve such senior members of the UK Border Agency. Only a day after the publication of our report which concluded that the Border Agency continues to fail we have this remarkable news.

http://latestnews.virginmedia.com/news/uk/2011/11/04/uk_border_force_chief_suspended


Interestinger and interestinger!!

Long have we known that a bag of chips is more orderly set than our border controls.

oftenwrong

Between 1939 and 1945 was obviously the Second World War, and allthough immigration was carefully watched and controled, it did not mean that there was no immigration, infact nothing could be further from the truth.
The UK saw a huge increase of immigration prior to, and during the war, in the first instance there was a huge increase of European Jews arriving here, there were people from all accross Europe arriving in the UK escaping turmoil and strife.

Imagine what a ban on Immigration would do to Football in this country.....

Most Premier League teams rely on Immigrant workers, either players or managers, but they are not called Immigrants for fear of up setting their Thugish Right Wing Fans.............

Were all these foreigners really a good thing? Ginola for Newcastle. I mean before Jimmy Hill and his antics this was unheard of
Has the emergence of foreigners into British football made the game more entertaining or just more expensive for a season ticket?

Quote : "Confirmation of Mr Clark's suspension came after the Daily Mail reported that border checks had been relaxed earlier this year without the knowledge of ministers."

Can we imagine what the vomit-inducing Daily Mail would have said if a Labour Government had been in office at the relevant time? There would not have been any reference to ' without the knowledge of ministers'!

Shall we ever see an end to this type of hypocrisy which is wheeled out so often in favour of a seedy and corrupt Tory administration...?

and it can only get worse if the Brussels Mullahs have their way!!

This from virginmedia.com -



EC challenged on 'benefit tourism'
5 November 2011 11:34am
The Government is preparing to take legal action against the European Commission in an effort to halt the rise of "benefit tourism", employment minister Chris Grayling said.

Plans are being drawn up in response to moves by Brussels that could allow people from Ukraine and certain North African countries to move to the UK and start claiming benefits.

Britain has already been threatened with legal action by the EC because of its imposition of eligibility tests on European Union nationals living in the UK.

Now there are fears that millions more people from countries outside the EU could seek benefits in Britain under deals being negotiated by the EC.

http://latestnews.virginmedia.com/news/uk/2011/11/05/ec_challenged_on_benefit_tourism


later on in the story, reference is made to "reciprocal agreements" which to my little mind may be two way but by no means equal!
The Ghurkas serve this country, and are not allowed equal pay and benefits, why should some phuck who sat in a Russian Tu 95 BEAR not so long ago be able to pick up far more than them?

My estimation of this inept conservative government - no better now than the last one, is that the EC will win and we will have a large payment to make. Anyone forgotter Portillo's Cod War, to get the tuna out of Bay of Biscay? The Spanish took UK to court and it cost us a Fine of £100 million - incidentally, this was the first cheque G Broon had to write as chancellor of the exchequer!

Phil Hornby wrote:Quote : "Confirmation of Mr Clark's suspension came after the Daily Mail reported that border checks had been relaxed earlier this year without the knowledge of ministers."

Can we imagine what the vomit-inducing Daily Mail would have said if a Labour Government had been in office at the relevant time? There would not have been any reference to ' without the knowledge of ministers'!

Shall we ever see an end to this type of hypocrisy which is wheeled out so often in favour of a seedy and corrupt Tory administration...?

Lovely image conjured up by Radio 4's News Quiz, of Britain's shores being defended by Daily Mail readers in pedaloes.

The Torys want to increase the speed limit on our motorways to 80mph, the recent accident on the M5 last night proves the folly in there thinking. Some of the car's, lorries, and vans were probably already exceeding the speed limit so if it had been raised there would be probably more vehicles involved. They would probably be exceeding the new limit has well. One person involved in the pile up said cars were just piling in at 60mph, i suppose he was being a bit conservative about the speeds. Reports said it is the worst motorway pile up since 1991, if the idiots get their way it won't be the last, it was night time, misty, and the roads were wet. All it needs is for one driver to nod off, fiddle about with their mobile phone, get carried away with the music they are listening to, or other silly stupid things, then you get a catastrophy. SPEED KILLS.

SPEED KILLS!

HOW?

No one died on a British Airways Concorde at 1,400mph!

It's the sudden stop that does the damage!


The Highway Code states that -
"A safe driving speed, is one at which the driver can stop well within distance he can ahead to be clear"

There was a Firework Display, it was foggy and heavy rain and volunteers for trouble were going at what one guy (sic) estimated was 60mph? A recipe for disaster!

astra wrote:SPEED KILLS!

HOW?

No one died on a British Airways Concorde at 1,400mph!

It's the sudden stop that does the damage!


The Highway Code states that -
"A safe driving speed, is one at which the driver can stop well within distance he can ahead to be clear"

There was a Firework Display, it was foggy and heavy rain and volunteers for trouble were going at what one guy (sic) estimated was 60mph? A recipe for disaster!

If they wasn't speeding, there wouldn't be a sudden stop, as far as the Concord was concerned, I vaguely remember a Concord crashing on the continent, not a British one but a Concord just the same. A crash brought the end to the Russian version Concord, Concordski they called it.

yes yes that is why I specifically mentioned British Airways. Air France could not operate a Dragon Rapide in any kind of safety, they are MORE penny pinching than are Ryan Air!!

Remember the crash from Brasil to Paris? here is an extract from a Pilot's blog on that crash and it looks like Air France penny pinching in the training department!

"Then came the BEA reports, which had dug deeper into the history of these events and also revealed further incidents that had gone unreported. Most significantly, the investigation revealed that the procedures had never been used in any of these events. Therefore, any claim that the procedures were ineffective in real-world experience was nullified. On the contrary, the investigation revealed the difficulty in maintaining stable flight without following the procedures.

So what was preventing the pilots from adhering to the procedures? The AF447 investigation revealed that the procedures were not properly included in training. The reason in the case of AF447 was ignorance, they weren't aware of the procedures, and this was most likely the reason in every other instance as well."


I also quoted the highway code. If people were driving into the piled up vehicles, were they doing it because it was of deliberate intention or because they could not stop in time to avoid the obstruction, once it had been identified as such?

'The Guardian' had a headline today which read "May to be grilled over border controls". I can just picture the barbecue now - I wonder if it will be at Dover, Gatwick or Heathrow?

Speed alone is not dangerous. Two, or two hundred, vehicles travelling in the same direction at the same velocity are in no more danger from each other than if every one of them were stationary. What kills is speed differential, which explains why cyclists feel threatened by cars, and pedestrians are advised to occupy a separate space altogether.

70 mph - 80 mph - 90 mph are all safe speeds in clear conditions with good visibility, but the evidence is that drivers mistakenly assume that a Motorway will always be clear, though that cannot possibly always be true.
These are the same drivers that drive around a blind corner on a rural road at 40 mph in total ignorance of whether the road ahead is clear or not. On some B-roads (legal maximum 60 mph) even 20 mph can provide moments of excitement when upon rounding a bend the entire road is filled with an agricultural vehicle.

or a gee gee's rump!!!



Force fed horse cr4p is NOT the way to end up in A&E

So should immigration always be perceived as 'a problem'?

I think, the British method of Control/guard is doomed to be a problem!

This is the only country with no limit on the numbers we take in

The French and the Germans cherry pick the immigrants that hit their borders and send the rest to us

The Polish jails are empty - they are negotiating with Denmark to take Danish criminals to keep the jails open - WHERE HAVE ALL THE POLISH PRISONERS GONE ALL OF A SUDDEN?????

Until this country excercises it's right to allow some and NOT to allow others then there will ALWAYS be problems, and that is not somePolitically Correct ideology!

Ther was an article written entitled "The folly of mass immigration", which is the best ever read on the subject. I recomend those interested take time to read it.

link: http://www.opendemocracy.net/people-migrationeurope/article_1193.jsp

Nice to see you Phoenix.

It's not immigration par se that's the problem, more a lack of integration to the laws of the land.

Hi tlttf, and nice to see you to. It almost feels like home here. Most of the old friends in one place.

With regard response to immigration, I agree in part. But then we have to consider the EU open border policy, and that is the biggest flaw leading to uncontrolled immigration in UK. I recall listening to a MP/MEP on news recently with regard it where he stated we know exactly how many sheep we have in the country due to micro-chipping, but we don't know how many people are living in UK.

uncontrolled immigration in UK

Does Theresa May know about this?

oftenwrong wrote:uncontrolled immigration in UK

Does Theresa May know about this?

good question. Why not ask her?

Theresa May knows more than what she is telling, instead of asking her, ask her fall guy what she knows.

If not for illegal immigration where would all the cleaning ladies come from?

Cleaning ladies, Carers, kitchen staff, baggage-handlers, crop-pickers, cockle-gatherers, security staff, shelf-stackers, all the jobs which Brit unemployed don't want.

When I was growing up, I was under the impression that if someone not born in the UK came here and contributed to society but decided that they didn't want to speak engurlish that was their right. Interestingly this is now a prerequisite.

In 2006 the IPCC published a report whereby they showed that the Commonwealth immigrants put more nto the system than they took out. A couple of years ago the peeps at LSE published a report showing that the A8 countries migrant workers also put more in than they took out. They were less likely to request any form of social assiatance than any other groups.

Stephanie Flanders from the BBC wrote one of the few unbiased if not the only unbiased version of "Did British jobs go to British workers" article which is a major eye opener. Unfortunately, there are those who are too locked into a particular false mind set to even venture near this sort of article or these sorts of survey's.

I find the right wing now bleat on about the "hidden costs". Should we look at the indirect taxation paid? The boost to the local economy? Or do we need to look at the fact that we have a creaking archaic system that's been stripped back so much for the sake of efficiency or cost savings that in some cases it struggles to cope?

I find it odd that one would not want to know the truth, rather judge on half truths, here say and downright falsehoods. People will only invest in this country when and if we have a willing labour force. We used to be content with our lot, now the capitalist system teaches us greed is good,get more, and more and more. Not many wants to work anymore, save up, buy a house, have an occasional holiday, have kids and going through life looking for contentment.

Nope, we want it all and we want it now.

Or you could view the situation as a conspiracy between the Bankers and the Privileged to screw the populace for everything they can, while they can.

$63 trillion thats how much there is in the total world economy, guess how much there is in the derivatives market? Nearly $800 trillion, now i dunno about you, but the maths don't seem to make sense to me.

I do strongly believe that the reason we are in the Middle East is becasue we need more money to feed the system. Capitalism by definition needs to consume to regenerate. I know of firms that would normally charge tens of thousands of $'s for work, now charging the Iraqi people millions to assist them of course in rebuildng whilst all the time the system sqeezes us as well.

We need to listen to some of the tent dwellers around our cities.

Humanist wrote:
When I was growing up, I was under the impression that if someone not born in the UK came here and contributed to society but decided that they didn't want to speak English that was their right. Interestingly this is now a prerequisite.

But not if you have net assets of at least £1 million. Then you can enter this country when you like and stay for as long as you like. As Ian Dunt has written in ‘Talking Politics’, such people "are not required to meet any English language requirements — only the poor will be forced to learn a language in Cameron's Britain. We invite in the impossibly rich playboys, the jet-set from the Middle East and Latin America, who refuse to participate in British society to at least the same extent as we see in the Asian areas developing in some British cities. But it is acceptable, because they are rich. The fact that their appalling wealth drives up property prices and stokes resentment in the general population means nothing to a government that prostitutes ethical and social issues in the name of money.”

As for those who think our problems will be eased by capping immigration, Dunt continues: “Cutting immigration doesn't even improve the economy. Actually it worsens our prospects. Research shows the immigration cap will force another 9p on income tax, as we try to care for an aging population without an influx of younger workers. Even the Lords economic affairs committee found immigration to be economically neutral, despite ignoring its overall impact on GDP, a view opposed by many experts. On a more general level, you don't find the next generation of success and innovation by only allowing the rich in. It's the people who come here with nothing, who travel the globe looking for opportunity, who will succeed. Closing the door on them is short-sighted lunacy.”

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/comment/talking-politics/only-rich-fall-love-cameron-britain-115946600.html

We used to have loads of red squirrels in the uk,,indigenous to the nation they were,,now they are on the protected species list because immigrant grey squirrels have killed all but a few of them off,,the grey squirrels took all the red squirrels territory and food...

poor old red squrirrel,,,but hey who gives a toss?.as long as the grey ones are doing ok.

With all this talk about squirrels we seem suddenly to be surrounded by nuts...

Quote
It's the people who come here with nothing, who travel the globe looking for opportunity, who will succeed. Closing the door on them is short-sighted lunacy.”

They are succeeding ok, free housing and benefits, all the scum of Europe and other parts of the world making here for all the freebies that are on offer.
We have a million young people out of work, nearly two million skilled and unskilled older people out of work.
Closing the door on them should be the first priority, unless they have a job and accomadation to go to.
There are hundreds of East Europeans fiddling the benifit system, claiming benifit for children they haven't got. The benifits system is all in disarray, they have stopped checking if these people really have children. One gang have frauded the benifit system of 2 million pounds, yes they have got jail, free board and lodgings again, payed by the British tax payer. There are countless others foriegners on the fiddle, no proper check up to see if they are genuine claimants.
Mean while British people who have suffered a bad accident or an illness caused through work, their doctors will have to sign them of sick, because they are being told too by this Con/Lib Dem government. A panel of non-medical people will decide if they are able to work.
The English language should be a must to be able to speak, how can anyone work in this country if the can't converse with people. In some cases it could be extreamly dangerouse.
NIN, the grey squirrel is vermin, (tree rats as i call them) now if anything needs to be culled, it's the tree rat.