Is David Cameron a moron from the outer reaches of the universe? (Part 1)

Remarkably skilled at running it into the ground, though!

When Cameron is asked about food banks he harps on that they where around at the time of a Labour gov't but will not say how many, I know Ivan there were around 40,000 users, NOW there are 350,000 across the UK according to the Trussel Trust who run most of them and they are having a hard job keeping up with demand they also reckon there are around about 500,000 that need the help of food banks so you can see just how many people are going hungry in the UK.

oftenwrong wrote:Remarkably skilled at running it into the ground, though!

This is true, and proving that you don't need wrecking ball to obliterate buildings and institutions, Cameron has a flare that will be the bench mark for those who come up through the ranks after him

Tory Leaders don't actually "come up through the ranks", DN. They "emerge" - like a butterfly does from the chrysalis.

Many Tories would like to replace Cameron (preferably with themselves), but none can forecast the result from past experience.

Who chose John Major; Michael Howard; William Hague or Iain Duncan Smith?

IDS?? LMAO more appropriately.

Writing in ‘Standpoint’, Robin Harris, who was Thatcher’s speechwriter, said:

“David Cameron and his allies are an unpleasant bunch whose project has ended in abject failure. For sustained personal unpleasantness, the Conservative modernisers deserve some kind of award. In private and in print, their long campaign was carried on in a tone of consistently venomous contempt. The modernisers have not detoxified the Tory brand. They have simply made it unrecognisable, even to Tories."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/andy-mcsmiths-diary-social-media-is-turning-out-to-be-a-right-pain-for-ukip-8644687.html

Ivan, the Conservative modernisers have done something constructive "TURNED THE UK COMPLETELY OFF VOTING TORIES OF THE FUTURE"

http://standpointmag.co.uk/

Really interesting article that, Ivan - the whole text can be accessed via the link to Standpoint home page.
I was gobsmacked to read one of Thatcher's inner circle being so critical - he has hit several nails on their heads, and his conclusions to me seem inescapable.

Leading into a General Election, Tory bile will probably be directed as much against their erstwhile coalition partners, the Lib-Dems. Each knows rather more about the other now, than they would have done in 2010. What skeletons will fall out of the Number 10 cupboard?

Good point OW I wonder if the Lib-Dems know exactly what kind of bile the Tories will use against them come the general election in 2015, there is another point will they let UKIP candidates into some of those skeletons in the Lib-Dem cupboards ?

Not sure the LibDems are sufficiently large to have a cupboard.

More likely to be a sizeable box...

Well by the time of the general election in 2015 PH their meetings will be in a phone box with plenty of room to keep their skeletons.

The man I met last week - the one who hadn't eaten for a week?
Saw him today - feeling a bit better - why? - he's had a few meals and realised someone gives a damn if he lives or dies - lets all do that for a bt - see if it makes a difference?

boatlady wrote:The man I met last week - the one who hadn't eaten for a week?
Saw him today - feeling a bit better - why? - he's had a few meals and realised someone gives a damn if he lives or dies - lets all do that for a bt - see if it makes a difference?

While I was in Eastleigh boatlady the Eastleigh Labour party it asked its members to donate a few tins of something every week, so while I was there went to Sainsbury's and spent a small amount of money to help fill up their donation to the Eastleigh food bank.

To think that Hampshire is classed as an affluent area but even there exists food banks, it surprised me because part of Hampshire is Tory held.

I think it's more the fact that someone treated him like a human being , to be honest - he'd been referred to the food bank, but felt that was just a way of fobbing him off.
The way the government's rhetoric affects people's self esteem is at least as harmful as the fact that policies about benefits and other things are making people poorer. After all, in the war, people lived very frugally indeed but didn't feel it as a hardship particularly (at least that's what my mum says).
Giving donations is brilliant - but actually talking to people and helping them see that they are not scum whatever the news calls them is also important, I think.
You're right though, it's astonishing and awful that even in wealthy areas there are these pockets of extreme poverty.

boatlady wrote:I think it's more the fact that someone treated him like a human being , to be honest - he'd been referred to the food bank, but felt that was just a way of fobbing him off.
The way the government's rhetoric affects people's self esteem is at least as harmful as the fact that policies about benefits and other things are making people poorer. After all, in the war, people lived very frugally indeed but didn't feel it as a hardship particularly (at least that's what my mum says).
Giving donations is brilliant - but actually talking to people and helping them see that they are not scum whatever the news calls them is also important, I think.
You're right though, it's astonishing and awful that even in  wealthy areas there are these pockets of extreme poverty.

 
I know boatlady that someone that is not used to being out of work it can effect their mental wellbeing badly, then to find no hope of getting a job in this climate that the Tories have created, plus being called skiver or scrounger by the same people that helped your job loss must effect self esteem.

It's hardly surprising that people from a particular stratum of Society prefer to associate with equals. The poor feel more comfortable with those with a shared experience, and the wealthy will move among associates who are not going to criticise their chosen lifestyle. Some upwardly-mobile aspirants find it very hard work to try and keep up with target-lifestyles that only ask the price after deciding to buy a thing.

Capitalism keeps such divisions alive, and the alternative is to first find an alternative.

When our Tory friends drop in on us and offer us extracts from 'The Daily Mail', or regurgitated old myths about 'welfare dependency' and Labour causing a global credit crunch, they rarely if ever extol the virtues of the party they support (that is, when they're not flirting with UKIP), even though it's been in government for more than three years. A read of this blog might help to explain their reticence:-
 
Cameron: is he the worst Prime Minister in British history?
 
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1rld96k

This is all so true - yet the Tories still have some popular support.
Can it be that spite and envy are in fact the two dominant human emotions?

http://t.co/6EqySpwib6

Article about misinformation - the 'facts' that people base their political decisions on.
I guess, until proper facts and statisitics are out there in a reliable way, we will continue to find there's support for the spiteful policies of this government

boatlady wrote:This is all so true - yet the Tories still have some popular support.
Can it be that spite and envy are in fact the two dominant human emotions?

 
To think boatlady that there are so many people out there with traits of spite and envy in their character.

Why do too many people still support the Tories? 
 
1. Because they’re selfish and have no sense of being part of a society.
 
If they’re doing okay, sod everyone else. Nothing’s ever going to happen to them. There’s no chance they might lose their jobs, develop a serious illness, or have an accident and become permanently disabled. Thatcher pandered to that mentality; when challenged about 3 million people being unemployed, her retort was: “Remind the moaning minnies that 23 million have got jobs”.
 
“Why should I pay for other people’s kids?” is the cry we occasionally get one from moron on this forum, who doesn’t care if children are going to bed hungry. He’s also too thick to understand that the children of this country are the next generation of taxpayers who will be supporting us in our dotage.
 
2. Because they choose to identify with the rich and powerful.
 
They know their place and are grateful for any crumbs that fall their way. They may even be pathetic enough to hope that the Bullingdon boys and their ilk will be nice to them if they show them loyalty. They hope to benefit from that myth known as 'the trickle-down effect'.
 
3. Because they’re brainwashed bigots.
 
There are still plenty of Alf Garnetts around who are racist and xenophobic. Right-wing parties like the Tories and UKIP will always pander to their prejudices against immigrants, along with their desire to turn the clock back at least sixty years.
 
The article produced by boatlady above shows just how misinformed people are, and I gave an example last Saturday of how the tabloids indoctrinate their readers by using words like ‘plunder’ and ‘massive’ inappropriately:-
 
https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t173p60-the-european-union-is-costing-us-more-each-day#42153
 
But the good news is that Toryism is in long-term decline. Every weekend across the country, there are enthusiastic Labour members and MPs taking part in the ‘Labour Doorstep’ campaign, talking to hundreds of ordinary people about their concerns. The Tories couldn’t do that, as one of their MPs, Douglas Carswell, has explained:-
 
“For a generation, the Conservative Party has been fighting a long retreat. An endangered species in much of the north of England, we are all but extinct in Scotland. Towns and cities across England that within living memory returned Conservative majorities to the town halls  and MPs to Parliament are now Tory-free. In many constituencies across the country, our local party structure is almost as hollow as our approach to the economy."
 
https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t848-is-the-tory-party-an-anachronism-which-should-be-disbanded

Why do too many people still support the Tories?[/b]

[b]1. Because they’re selfish and have no sense of being part of a society.

No quite the opposite, it's because they want to protect their society and value all people who contribute to it

Because they choose to identify with the rich and powerful

Identify or Aspire? Most people want to better themsleves and become more wealthy and I (and Tory voters) admire people who have made a success of themsleves. We look at it as a race to the top and Lefties look at it as a race to the bottom (as long as it doesn't include themsleves)...and that's why there is jealousy from the left for wealthy and successful people

Because they’re brainwashed bigots

The same could and will be said of the left. PS: Exactly in your mind what constitutes a racist and xenophobe? I am sure it will be very different to many peoples' idea

“For a generation, the Conservative Party has been fighting a long retreat. An endangered species in much of the north of England, we are all but extinct in Scotland. Towns and cities across England that within living memory returned Conservative majorities to the town halls  and MPs to Parliament are now Tory-free. In many constituencies across the country, our local party structure is almost as hollow as our approach to the economy."

Again Ivan I hope you believe this tosh, the Tories have a huge majority in England, but I sure you'll come up with some other leftie loon reason for that...Lets roll out the usual suspects to save you the trouble: A Tory right wing press, TV propaganda, Bigotry...I think you and some others here brainwash yourselves and each other on a daily basis

Once again you get it WRONG blue , as long as this gov't does not get the economy growing (it would help if Posh Dave got rid of Gideon as chancellor) which would allow people to aspire and get on in the world, everybody wants to own their own home but as long as its the SELFISH FEW at the top govern this country us so called PLEBS have not got a hope in hell.
 
That is one of the reasons that Scotland is a TORY FREE part of the UK.

blueturando. Predictable response from you, which proves my point quite nicely – “bettering themselves and becoming more wealthy”. That’s what it’s all about with you right-wingers, money. I think I “bettered myself” when I got a second degree, but it didn’t make me any wealthier, so no doubt I’m not “a success” in your eyes and you don’t “admire” me. I’m not in any way “jealous” of the wealthy, in fact I’d see being rich as a liability. I’d hate to have servants or need to live in a gated community for fear of being robbed or kidnapped, but no doubt you can’t understand my failure to be obsessed with material things.
 
Let’s not kid ourselves. The vast majority of those who have wealth have either inherited it (like Cameron and George W. Bush), are criminals (like Nicholas van Hoogstraaten and Tory donor Asil Nadir), or are vicious bastards who have become rich on the backs of others (aided no doubt by old school ties and funny handshakes).
 
The Tories don’t “value all people who contribute to society”, try telling that to the 4,000 plus nurses they’ve sacked. They have an ideological hatred of all public sector workers, as Gove has demonstrated with his various measures to upset teachers. Tories value City bankers; how Cameron and Boris Johnson squealed and rushed off to Brussels when it was announced that bonuses might be capped at one or two years’ salary! (Don’t bother to post any of that shyte about how we should allow ourselves to be held to ransom by those parasites in the City who wrecked this country, and who will probably do so again if they aren’t regulated soon. If they want to sod off to another country, there will be plenty ready to take their places for a fraction of the remuneration.)
 
I notice you didn’t try to claim that Tories value “those who used to contribute to society”, many of whom can’t do so now because of serious or even terminal illness or disabilities arising from accidents. Even from your ivory tower in Jersey you must be aware of the very many horror stories about the way Iain Duncan Smith and his minion Freud have treated the sick and disabled. If Tories really valued people, they would value all people according to their need.
 
How dare you accuse the left of a “race to the bottom” when your beloved Tories are doing their best to turn us into an Asian sweat shop under the guise of “making the UK more competitive”. First they create mass unemployment in the public sector so they can screw down wages, then they start attacking employment rights, then finally health and safety. But no doubt that’s all okay as long as bankers get their bonuses and millionaires get their tax cuts - at a time when it’s wholly inappropriate for them to do so.
 
The “tosh” to which you refer was written by a Tory MP, not by me. You believe what you like, but Tory Party membership has more than halved in the last eight years and most members are old. The party has very few active members in the constituencies and they are what help to win elections. You could try reading some more of the “tosh” which Carswell wrote about how the Tories had an 18,000 majority in Eastleigh in 1992 and now come third in by-elections and “can scarcely win a seat on the council” in a Hampshire town:-
 
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2287256/Tory-Party-run-like-HMV--way-says-Conservative-MP-Clacton-DOUGLAS-CARSWELL.html
 
I forgot to add the fourth reason why so many people vote Tory: it’s because they’re thick. As John Stuart Mill put it: “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.” I’ve long thought that those with the independence of mind to be unaffected by the constant brainwashing attempts of the right-wing media must have a critical faculty which those who succumb to Tory propaganda clearly lack. It also appears to be the conclusion of experts at Brock University in Ontario, Canada, who studied research comparing childhood intelligence with political views in adulthood in 15,000 people. They found that intelligence, rather than education, wealth or social status, decides whether people are narrow-minded or bigoted in later life. Their report has been published in a journal called ‘Psychological Science’ and states: “Those with lower cognitive abilities may gravitate towards socially conservative right-wing ideologies that maintain the status quo. That is because it provides a sense of order". The authors found a strong link between low intelligence both as a child and an adult, and right-wing politics:-
 
http://www.livescience.com/18132-intelligence-social-conservatism-racism.html
 
If you don’t know what racists and xenophobes are, I suggest you look them up in the online dictionary. I would have thought that even a right-winger had sufficient intelligence to do that.

Well Ivan please allow me to congratulate you on your bilious xenophobic attack on all things not labour, I've read a few of your meanderings and initially believed that though I disagree with your politics you were at least committed in putting your point across. I now realise that you have no point other than as an attack dog on behalf of the labour party (who I now know are superior to me in all things thanks to you). How lucky we are to have people in this country that would rather get up and work other than sit around complaining about how harsh life is, no doubt they are part of "the brainless right wingers" you so revile.

Never mind reality son, stick to what you've become.

What do you think you and blue are tittf "Huge GOBSHYTES" for the Tory party , and of course you will keep doing it hence never thinking for yourself in your natural which tells me you do not know how to think for yourself just like others SHEEP.
 
I think that Ivan put it "LIKE IT REALLY IS"  and that is something that you and blue do not like at all in fact no Tory would, the reason for this is simple they actually think the word TRUTH is a SWEAR WORD or maybe they think that they should be exempt from telling the truth.

The fact remains, most voters are making their decisions about political affiliation on the basis of untrue premises.
I would really like to see the outcome of a general election if the FACTS were out there without any spin from either political perspective.
Maybe people would still be inclined to vote against a benign state, providing education, health care, housing and essential services - but I'm not sure they would.
As that's not going to happen, I will vote Labour - not a perfect choice, but in my lifetime only caught out in one really big lie (unlike IDS and his mates, who seem to be caught out daily in yet another big lie), and who have never done any harm to the working citizens of this country as far as I'm aware.

blueturando. Predictable response from you, which proves my point quite nicely – “bettering themselves and becoming more wealthy”. That’s what it’s all about with you right-wingers, money. I think I “bettered myself” when I got a second degree, but it didn’t make me any wealthier, so no doubt I’m not “a success” in your eyes and you don’t “admire” me. I’m not in any way “jealous” of the wealthy, in fact I’d see being rich as a liability. I’d hate to have servants or need to live in a gated community for fear of being robbed or kidnapped, but no doubt you can’t understand my failure to be obsessed with material things.

Hi Ivan, as usual you have taken my comment and spun it in your own twisted way. If you go back to what I was responding to it was your comment that Tory voters identify with the rich and I responded with that no, they aspire to to better them selves financially...It was a direct answer to your point

Now if you have the time and inclination (and off topic) to discuss what people mean by bettering themsleves then I would suggest that the list is long including, a stronger financial position, passing exams or gaining a degree, getting married, having children, recovering from illness, acquiring a new skill...etc etc. Twisting my comment doesn't make it true...well maybe to you and Red

What do you think you and blue are tittf "Huge GOBSHYTES" for the Tory party

Im feeling the love coming through the screen Redflag  

I forgot to add the fourth reason why so many people vote Tory: it’s because they’re thick. As John Stuart Mill put it: “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives

Ivan....your arrogance does you no favours. I'm sensing youre starting to sh*t your pants because Labour is in such a mess....Will they, or should I say Unite kick you off the payroll?

But when all is said and done, blue, it will be the people that this Tory gov't has hurt, with their cuts to root out skivers and scroungers when in reality it has hurt honest hard working people, that will be doing the voting in May 2015, and if you think these people will vote Tory "YOU'RE UP A GUM TREE WITH NO WAY DOWN".    You have sufficent arrogance of your own along with a serving of condescension.

blueturando. Had you directed your disgusting last message at anyone else on this forum, I’d have deleted it and referred it to the moderation team. You might have liked that; it would have given you an excuse to bleat that you’d been “gagged” for your political views. Nothing to do with the house rules or common decency, of course.
 
I’m not on anyone’s payroll - only a Tory would assume that everything has to be done for money – but I take it as a compliment that you think I’m a professional. Furthermore, I would have no problems being associated with Unite, which represents the interests of about 1.5 million workers. I expect you prefer to be associated with a party whose top brass are in the pockets of Rupert Murdoch and his criminals, Circle Health, Serco, G4S, Wonga and tobacco lobbyist Lynton Crosby.
 
I’m sure Iain Duncan Smith thought he was “bettering himself” when he married into the aristocracy, but I can’t see how Tracey on a council estate having five kids (something which I’m sure you and your pal would despise) can be interpreted as “bettering yourself”. I haven’t twisted your comments, I’ve quoted them. “Most people want to better themselves and become more wealthy”, “better themselves financially” – as I said previously, it’s all about money with you and your fellow Tories.
 
If anyone’s doing any twisting, it’s you. It was research at a Canadian university which concluded that right-wingers are thick, not me. I just happen to agree with it. Most people don’t like to think they’re politically illiterate, and crap publications like ‘The Daily Mail’ give them simple little half-truths or myths which make them think they know something. However, as the article which boatlady posted earlier revealed, the British public is wrong about nearly everything - but please don’t read it because it might make you feel uncomfortable about your Tory prejudices:-
 
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/british-public-wrong-about-nearly-everything-survey-shows-8697821.html
 
You give us all a good laugh, although you’re probably just trolling, when you kid yourself about Labour being “in a mess”. Ignore the fact that Tory Party membership has dropped to 130,000, while Labour Party individual membership (nothing to do with affiliations) is around 200,000. Delude yourself that everyone who believed Cameron’s lies in 2010 will fall for them again in 2015, and that tens of thousands of other people who didn’t vote for the Tories last time will switch to them after losing their jobs and benefits. Forget that living standards are still falling and long-term unemployment is at a 17-year high. Forget that 50% of those who voted for the Lib Dems in 2010 switched to Labour within weeks of the great betrayal and have stayed loyal ever since. Ignore the results of council by-elections and the trend of opinion polls, which on average suggest a 7% Labour lead and an overall Labour majority of 84 in a general election:-
 
http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/

I've seen a link on twitter, it was from an ex-Lib-Dem who had been in the party for 23yrs and hed even helped to write the 2010 Lib-Dem Manifesto with Clegg, apparently he was so disgusted with the Lib-Dems he has handed back his membership card and joined the Labour party so you can change that number to 200,001.
 
Over the next months that will grow slow and steadily as people work out exactly what Cameron and his SCUMBAGS are up to, all SPIN & LIES.

blueturando. Had you directed your disgusting last message at anyone else on this forum, I’d have deleted it and referred it to the moderation team. You might have liked that; it would have given you an excuse to bleat that you’d been “gagged” for your political views. Nothing to do with the house rules or common decency, of course

.

Ivan....you should not have the power of a moderator when you only delete messages YOU dont like....

So I have just one question for you Ivan....Why is ok for you and Red to dish out personal comments to TLTTF and myself, but not to receive them in return....IE:

What do you think you and blue are tittf "Huge GOBSHYTES" for the Tory party

Blue
I think you have been asked more than once to confine personal discussion to the private meessaging facility.
I for one am sick to death of this quarrel you seem to be prosecuting with some members of this forum.
Please, in future, if you have nothing to say to the TOPIC, the thing to do is to contact the person you have a disagreement with personally.

blueturando wrote:
Ivan....you should not have the power of a moderator when you only delete messages YOU dont like....

So I have just one question for you Ivan....Why is ok for you and Red to dish out personal comments to TLTTF and myself, but not to receive them in return....IE:

What do you think you and blue are tittf "Huge GOBSHYTES" for the Tory party

I will try and explain it blue, you come on here RUBBISHING the Labour party, Ed Miliband and Labour MPs, so hence I along with others will stand up for Labour "QUOTING THE TRUTH" of the bloody mess that the Tories are making of the economy, not forgetting it's the honest hard working man/women that are paying for the EFFING B(W)ANKERS GREED of 2008 not the bankers, they're still getting their normal salary and bonuses as though the financial crash had not happened.
 
This to me sounds like if I murder someone YOU will do the time in prison, so how in anybody's eyes is that fair, the sick disabled and vulnerable of the UK are paying the price for the bankers greed. The unemployed are been called skivers and scroungers, how in God's name are they supposed to get a job out there are 2.5 million unemployed, what jobs there are are only part-time or zero hour contracts, what good is that for a man or women with two kids people want enough money to pay ALL their bills THEMSELVES?
 
Plus the Tories coming out with the LIES sticks in peoples CRAW, the 1.3 million jobs this gov't is supposed to have created via the private sector is nothing more than SPIN. 500,000 were public sector jobs taken over by this gov't privatizing everything in site, the jobs in the private sector they have got their friends in big business are low paid part-time or zero hour contracts.
 
Now they have sold our blood transfusion service for £200 million to a USA company who do not check the blood as thoroughly as we do, so getting blood might not be the only thing you get, it could be HIV or Hepatitis B for good measure.  I hope you can try and understand why most of us on here keep hoping the ground will open up and swallow the entire Tory party.

Is this the hidden agenda? 
 

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BPzP2sOCIAEGLPc.jpg

Course it is - that's been obvious for a while - probably why they've left Osborne in charge of the economy, IDS in charge of social security and that clueless bint McVey in charge of disability - incompetence disguised as well meaning amateurish meddling is great cover.

I notice that all those Tories at the top, have a convenient lib-dem assistant. Ideal for a bit of buck passing?

bobby wrote:I notice that all those Tories at the top, have a convenient lib-dem assistant. Ideal for a bit of buck passing?

You have got it in one bobby, but the Lib-Dems will not find this out until the short campaign for the 2015 general election then they will get the entire blame for the MESS the Tories have created by the "DUMB CLUCKS" that call themselves Tory Ministers.

But I say "hell slap it into them" the L/Ds knew what the Tories where but still jumped into bed with them for tiny crumbs of power the Tories slung there way, and I'm glad to say they will pay the same heavy price as the Tories at the ballot box at the general election in 2015.

[quote="Ivan"]Is this the hidden agenda? 
 
"Me first" is commonly observed among all strata of Society.  The agenda is not particularly well-hidden, Tories want to ghetto-ise all opposition.

The great pity is that they found it so easy to recruit Lib-Dem assistance in that cause.  That did come as a slight surprise.

oftenwrong wrote:

Ivan wrote:Is this the hidden agenda? 
 
"Me first" is commonly observed among all strata of Society.  The agenda is not particularly well-hidden, Tories want to ghetto-ise all opposition.

The great pity is that they found it so easy to recruit Lib-Dem assistance in that cause.  That did come as a slight surprise.

I suppose the biggest people surprised will have been L/D voters and members OW plus all the Uni students that they LIED too and thought saying sorry would make it OK.