Is David Cameron a moron from the outer reaches of the universe? (Part 1)

oftenwrong wrote:Is David Cameron a moron from the outer reaches of the universe?

Not moronic, but meretricious. David Cameron cannot resist telling people what he thinks they want to hear, so in one speech he is banker-busting, and in another he is telling the City how much we rely upon it.

You have noticed that as well OW, He jumped on the bandwagon when he seen Ed Miliband getting praise for bringing up Good Business and Bad Business at last years conference and now he has changed his tune is that because some of the Tory party Donors are kicking up a fuss.

Quite right, anyone reading these pages would be under the impression that everything in the UK was perfect until 2010, then the whole world fell in.
We had had crime falling by between 8% and 10% every year, and Labour really expected people to believe that LOL.
Inflation was always under 3%, yet prices were rising on average 10% every year.
We now know we had the manipulated waiting figures, putting people's lives at risk to keep up with targets.
Mention the NHS and it's all Tory media causing trouble.
You would be led to believe that the rich didn't get richer under Labour, that the bankers wasn't Labour's friends, that Labour wasn't in Uncle Murdoch pocket, strange that the hacking scandal was sweep under the carpet until Uncle Murdoch changed sides, but that's life.
Pensioners were much better off under Labour yet we now know we are 17th out of 20.
The poor didn't get poorer, etc,etc,etc.

The lefties constantly go on about Tory millionaires, but as soon as you mention Labour millionaires, silence.
I mean Ed Balls and Yvette Cooper.......representing THE WORKING CLASS..HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA of course!!!!!
Now all they have left is comparing the Torys to facists, I would suggest the Labour party and their supporters look to themselves first and realise they are more aligned to facists then the Toys will ever be. If you can't get your own way beat them up or headbutt them.
Of course you know what the answer will be.
"With respect, that's not the question you should be asking. The question you should be asking is whether this fascist Tory government..."
I'm sure you can imagine the rest as well as I can.

Ahhh ATV....The silence in deafening isn't it. I'm sorry but the truth and your post do not fall in line with the fantasy world of most posters on here, so it must be ignored (Let's pretend it didn't happen)

Quite right, anyone reading these pages would be under the impression that everything in the UK was perfect until 2010, then the whole world fell in.

I think most on here would accept that things were not perfect before 2010, after all the finacial crisis started to surface in 2008.

What most are saying is things have gotten worse since mid 2010, when the Tory's failed to win the election and the Libdems chose to sell their souls for a taste of power....

AwfulTruth wrote:APOLOGIES TO ALL DAVID CAMERON FANS

I just wondered since his Prime Minister's Questions talents are about as edifying as a troglodyte with caveman issues: like he knows how to answer a question without pummeling his opponent with his stone club?

I never witnessed such an appalling lack of discussion, or even general etiquette, skills than with this prime mover. If I had been paid a quid for every ad hominem (personal reference - sarcasm to you and I) that fell out of his plump mouth I would be rich.

Seriously, why does Cameron make such a fool of himself? He has already been censured for bullying the newby MP's, and for his habit of telling pork pies when the truth would have done nicely.

It is now the case that his own party is getting sick of his amateurish habits which, as he has been solemnly told, may even bring office of PM into disrepute.

What do you think of his PMQs performance?

I am inclined to agree with Bluey here, because the very last thing Cameron is, is a moron.

David Cameron is a highly educated Eton man. But who knows nothing of the real world of the rest of us. He is an ultra right wing facist Tory economist.

It is in my view that it's the British who are largely morons due to voting the way they have always voted and who largely have not got one interest in the policies of the party they voted for, this is essentially the pensioners, who tend to vote the way their parents did, while the middle classes were raised on the self interest and outright greed of the Thatcher years. And it is now the younger generations who are paying the price of Britain's largely politically moronic electrate.

Phucking Hell Ivanhoe, i;m so glad that in your way of thinking I am only half a moron, any more and I might have taken offence.

By the way, what contituency.

And no I havent ever stood for parliament indipendant or otherwise. I'm far too honest.

bobby wrote:Phucking Hell Ivanhoe, i;m so glad that in your way of thinking I am only half a moron, any more and I might have taken offence.

By the way, what contituency.

And no I havent ever stood for parliament indipendant or otherwise. I'm far too honest.

bobby, I never called you anything. Do you know how much it costs to stand as an Independent for Parliament ?

bobby wrote:Phucking Hell Ivanhoe, i;m so glad that in your way of thinking I am only half a moron, any more and I might have taken offence.

By the way, what contituency.

And no I havent ever stood for parliament indipendant or otherwise. I'm far too honest.

You would make an Ideal candidate bobby, although i would like to see you standing as a Labour candidate you would be an ASSET and a really good politician.

I think most on here would accept that things were not perfect before 2010

Astradt and Bobby.......Well yes and as we know Bobby Labour would have had to make cuts if they remained in power...I have never disbuted that they wouldn't have done.....But!!! You wouldn't think it with some of the posters on here...every cut is a tory cut. It seems ideolody and lunacy takes over certain posters and they cannot or wont admit to anything. Maybe there is a role in the shadow cabinet for them.

NHS part privatisation, university fees, stealth taxes, cuts, immigration issues, cabinet millionaires....all have been going on for as long as I can remember...through Thatcher, Major, Blair and Brown and now Cameron....Please dont make yourselves look stupid and pretend it's all new


The difference is I am more than happy to admit and be vocal on where my party goes wrong (and they often do) Maybe if some posters got rid of their selective memory, I and ATV would take them more seriously. Maybe if they came up with viable alternative solutions (as you often do Bobby) then I would be able to take them more seriously

At this time I just consider some on here to be like those professional protesters who are all crusty and will protest at anything when the tories are in power....just because its the militant thing to do man....ya get mi

We know Labour would have to cut, the problem for them now is that your Tory’s have already done so much damage, the cuts would have to be more severe than they would have been had Labour won the last Election. The principle difference is that Labour would have and still will, invest in growth, Herr Cameron is borrowing to bolster his failure, whereas Labour would have borrowed less and invested in growth. The very fact that Herr Cameron has already borrowed more than Alistair Darling did and had produced nothing other than failure

All I can say Bobby is that the only investmet I see from Labour is the investment in Public services....bloated public services. That kind of investment in not wealth creating, just wealth draining. I didn't and still dont see any real investment in the Private sector where the wealth needs to be generated to pay for our public services

Bluey. Its not the "cuts"thats the problem, its the depth and speed the cuts are made, and if the cuts don't work, Herr Cameron and Boy Blunder have sweet Phuk all left, What then Bluey, we will be in a massive Tory Created debt, unemployement higher than in the Thatcher/Major government, massive inflation, massive homelessness, people living in Cardboard Cities as they did when the bitch was in.

What are they doing other than sitting on their bums and hoping the Private sector will pickup and bail the useless gits out of the shit. I want a pro-active Government, not one who's main task is to lie to the people they work for pretending they are working hard. You dont work hard to fail, and they are failing miserably.

Herr Cameron won’t give a shit, when he’s ousted, all he wants to do is make the UK a Tory Friendly Country. Then he and all the other Tory Millionaires can make hay. I nearly said Whoopee, but I doubt any of them has a decent shag in them. But then there’s always the 5 fingered widow, which is what Wanker’s resort too in times of need.

bluey, many of the sacked and To be sacked are those at the bottom of the heap, those already on low incomes and without the power to fight back. I don’t know what the pay is for these People, allow me to use that word again “People”, but it aint much, many where claiming pension credits because their wages were so low. Even Post Men get pension credits. I believe its better to keep these people working and earning, the difference between what they earn and what they will get from benefits can not be that much, but at least, whilst they are working, they are paying Tax, spending in the shops, keeping them going, and providing us the people with many needed services. I doubt they are saving a tenner if that a week for every job lost, and we will end up with another Generation of people with no hope of a future and less incentive to look for one. Its not only economics that concerns me, it Fairness. A word Herr Cameron bandies about, but has no concept as to what it means.

What are they doing other than sitting on their bums and hoping the Private sector will pickup and bail the useless gits out of the shit. I want a pro-active Government, not one who's main task is to lie to the people they work for pretending they are working hard. You dont work hard to fail, and they are failing miserably.

I can't argue with you here Bobby...which is annoying for me

bobby wrote:bluey, many of the sacked and To be sacked are those at the bottom of the heap, those already on low incomes and without the power to fight back. I don’t know what the pay is for these People, allow me to use that word again “People”, but it aint much, many where claiming pension credits because their wages were so low. Even Post Men get pension credits. I believe its better to keep these people working and earning, the difference between what they earn and what they will get from benefits can not be that much, but at least, whilst they are working, they are paying Tax, spending in the shops, keeping them going, and providing us the people with many needed services. I doubt they are saving a tenner if that a week for every job lost, and we will end up with another Generation of people with no hope of a future and less incentive to look for one. Its not only economics that concerns me, it Fairness. A word Herr Cameron bandies about, but has no concept as to what it means.

I think this shows the Tory lead coalition economic policy in its true light. its a sit on you hand economy...lets just do nothing of any note

Growth Forecast downgraded for the Fifth time by (OBR in November 2011
Growth forecast Downgraded for 2nd Time by Bank of England 1.4% August 2011
Growth forecast Downgraded for 3rd Time to 1.7% (Budget 2011)
Growth forecast Downgraded for 3rd Time to by Ernst & Young from1.7% to 0.9% Jan 2012
Growth forecast Downgraded for 2nd Time to by CBI to 1.3% July 2011
Growth forecast Downgraded for 4th Time to by CBI to 1.2% Sept 2011
Growth forecast Downgraded for 4th Time to by CBI to 0.9% Feb 2012
Growth forecast Downgraded for 3rd Time to by I.M.F to 1.3% July 2011
Growth forecast Downgraded for 4th Time to by I.M.F to 0.6% Jan 2012
Growth forecast in the Tory budget down for a 3rd time to 1.7% (Budget 2011
Growth forecast in the City as low as 1.2% 2011
Disposable income has seen its Sharpest fall in 30 years or 1980s (ONS)
Annual Earnings Growth remains at 1.9% in February 2012
GDP The last cycle of robust growth in potential output of 2.9% was 1997 to 2006 (OBR & Oxford Economic)
GDP when the Tory-Liberal coalition come to power ,the UK was growing at an annual rate of 4% (OBR)
GDP sluggish at just 0.5% for April 2011 (OBR)
GDP City Growth forecast for 2012 are 0.3% to 0.4% (FT Sept 2011)
GDP Growth for forecast set by bank of England at 2.0% 2010
GDP Contracted by 0.5% in the Q4 in 2010 (OBR)
GDP is 0.8% lower than in November 2010 (OBR)
GDP IS 0.2% lower than MARCH 2011 (OBR)
GDP Growth Contracted by 0.5% Q4 2010 (OBR)
GDP Growth April 2011 was Q1 0.5% (OBR)
GDP Growth July 2011 was just Q2 0.2% (OBR)
GDP Growth starts Jan Q1 2012 at just 0.2% (OBR)
GDP Growth December 2011 Contracted by 0.2% Q4 (OBR)
GDP April's figures have just clawed back last years 0.5% contraction in 2010 (OBR)
GDP is 1.1% lower than the OBR thought it would be in Sept 2010 (OBR)
GDP Growth is now lower than 1930s, 1970s, 1980s 1990s (OBR)
GDP UK is 3.6% blow its pre-financial crisis 2008 (H.M.Trasury)
National Debt hits £1.03 Trillion for the first Time Jan 2012 (OBR)
National Debt actual debt after repurchase by Bank of England is £650 Billion (Guardian on B of E figures)
National Debt Coalition & Bank of England QE for 2011 was £75 billion (OBR/Bank of England)
National Debt Coalition & Bank of England QE for 2012 was £50 billion (OBR/Bank of England)
National Debt total Quantitative Easing is £325 Billion in February 2012 (OBR/Bank of England)
National Debt private + public sector debt totals some 500% 2011 (OBR & Oxford Economic)
National Debt Tory Party forecast National debt will fall by just £54 Billion by 2015 (Tory party website)
UK Economic Decline is two and half times that of the entire Euro zone (ONS & H.M.Trasury) 2011
UK Economic Decline is 77% of the EU’s decline for 2011 (H.M.Trasury)
UK Economy shrank by 5.0% in 2009 the biggest calendar year fall since 1921 ( NIE)
UK Economy shrank by 6.3% in 2011 the biggest calendar year fall on record by October 2011 ( NIE)
UK Pound exchange rate has fallen by 21.0% against the Dollar 2011 (H.M.Trasury)
UK lose market share accelerated from 2008 to 2010. (Oxford Economic )
Government Borrowing Tory-Liberal coalition come to power stated an additional £111 Billion 2009 (OBR)
Government Borrowing Net borrowing was just £7.3 Billion in 2010 (H.M.Trasury)
Government Borrowing forecast up by £54 Billion (Budget 2011)
Government Borrowing overshot in Q4 by £127 Billion (OBR)
Government Borrowing overshot in Jan 2012 by £157 Billion (ONS)
Government Borrowing topped the £10 billion by just Feb 2011 (OBR)
Government Borrowing to be £10 billion higher every year from 2012 (OBR)
Government Borrowing in Jan 2012 was £13.7 billion for December 2011 overshooting (OBR)
Private Pension deficit up from £24.5 Billion to £31.7 Billion by Sept 2011 (ONS)
Private Pension Deficit £158 billion December 2011 (ONS)
Private Pension deficit £255.2 form £222 billion in Jan 2012 (N.M.A & ONS)
UK 10 Year bonds, the Historical high of 12.84% set in April 1990 (H.M.Trasury)
UK 10 year Bonds, Record low of 1.97% set in Jan 2012 (H.M.Trasury)
UK 10 Year Bonds, Yields decline by 1.47% from 1989 to 2012 (H.M.Trasury)
UK 10 Year Bonds, averaged 6.28% (H.M.Trasury)
Unemployment up to record 17 year high (ONS)
Unemployment record was set in 1981 at 2.6 million or 9.8% of the Workforce
Unemployment record was set in 1981 was past at 2.67 million or 8.4% of the Workforce January 2012 (ONS)
Unemployment for woman rose for the 10th month in a row March 2011 (ONS)
Unemployment increased by 20,000 the highest three month figure since Jan 1997 (ONS)
Unemployment increased by 16,000 for the last tree months of 2011. January 2012 (ONS)
Unemployment is now 7.7% of economically active population March 2011 (ONS)
Unemployment is now 8.4%% of economically active population 2012 (ONS)
Unemployment forecast in the budget set to rise to 8.1% in 2012 (Budget 2011)
Unemployment is was2.6 million in March 2011 (ONS)
Unemployment is now 2.6 million in December 2011 (ONS)
Unemployment is up to 2.67 million in January 2012 (ONS)
Unemployment Claimants increased by 12,400 in March 2011 to April 2011 (ONS)
Unemployment Claimants increased 11 month in a row by 6,900 to a total of 1.6 million January 2012 (ONS)
Unemployment Woman Claimants increased by 9,300 to 474,400 in March 2011 (ONS)
Unemployment Men Claimants increased by 3,100 to 994,200 in March 2011 (ONS)
Unemployment 16-24 hit 1.043 million in Q3, the highest since records began in 1992. 2011 (ONS)
Unemployment 16-24 hit 1.35 million in Q1 Up 22,000 January 2012 (ONS)
Unemployment benefit payments rose by 1,200 to 1.6 million by December 2012 (ONS)
Unemployment benefit payments up to 1980s levels (ONS)
Business failures in 2010 was 23,000 (ONS)
Business failures in 2011 was 20,900 or 6.5% (ONS)
Bankers Bonus for £14 billion for 2011 (FT & Guardian & BBC)
Manufacturing was flat Feb 2011 (ONS)
Manufacturing production out put 1.5% decline in April 2011 (ONS)
Manufacturing touted as the engine of the economy fall by 0.3% in July 2011 (ONS)
Manufacturing jobless in Q4 2011 to Jan 2012 was up to 395,000
Manufacturing production Cable & Wireless Communication slumped nearly 17% in 2011 (FT)
BDOs output index dropped from Decembers 91.4% to February 2012 to 91.2%
Exports fell in Jan 2011 (HMCR)
Exports Vs Imports increased by 14.7% in October 2011 (HMCR)
Factory gate prices rose 0.9% between February & March 2011 (ONS)
Factory gate prices rose at an annual rate of 5.3% in May 2011 (ONS)
Factory gate prices in December 2011 to 4.8% (ONS)
Factory gate prices fell in January 2012 to 4.1% (ONS)
Factory gate Producers input price inflation in January 2012 is 7% (ONS)
Mortgage & Credit card debt will soar to £2,126 billion by 2015 (ONS)
Mortgage debt now accounts is around £21,000 per person April 2011 (ONS)
Home repossessions peak set in 1991 at 19,000 homes (council of mortgage lenders)
Home repossession forecast to rise to 45,000 in 2012 (council of mortgage lenders )
Construction industry suffered a 0.5% fall in output from November to January 2012 (ONS)
North sea Oil Tax up by £2 Billion for 2011, with HMCR taking 88% in Tax (ONS)
The Worst squeeze on living standards for 90 years
Consumer spending accounts for 65% of the UK economy April 2011 (OMS)
Consumer spending shows the biggest fell in total sales since the survey began in 1995 (KPMG)
Consumer spending has fallen by 1.7% for four consecutive Q in 2011. (ONS)
Consumer spending has rose by 1.9% Q1 January 2012 (ONS)
Personal Spending shows it first drop in personal spending power since the Thatcher slump in 1980s (KMPG)
Petrol down by 1p with VAT up by 2% in the Budget 2011
Petrol prices average increased by 52% up to March 2010
Food Prices rose 7.4% in the biggest rise since 2009 (ONS)
Food Prices rising at 4.9% rising faster than any other OECD in Jan 2012 member (UBS & OECD)
CPI Inflation increase to 3.3% December 2010 (OBR & Oxford Economic)
CPI has put the cost of living double its target from 4% in Jan 2011 to 4.4% in April 2011 (OBR & Oxford Economic)
CPI September 2011 rises by 5.2% (ONS)
CPI October 2011 fall by just 0.2% to 5.0% (ONS)
CPI January 2012 fell to 4.8% from 5.0% (Bank of England)
RPI has gone from 5.1% to 5.5% the highest since 1991 (ONS)
RPI Jan 2011 leapt to CPI 4% from 3.7% with Market Oracle

'I Know Best' Cameron Fails Again

"The UK and Italy have become embroiled in a diplomatic row over the failed hostage rescue bid in Nigeria.

Italian president Giorgio Napolitano branded Downing Street's failure to inform Rome "inexplicable".(my emphasis). British construction worker Chris McManus and his Italian co-worker Franco Lamolinara died on Thursday as Nigerian troops and UK Special Boat Service commandos tried to end their nine months in captivity." ( MSN News)

Another Cameron cock-up..... aided , no doubt, by his trusty colleague-in-calamity, Hague....

Best not to tell Italians too much, they tend to change sides

Betty - surely you are thinking of Clegg....

Phil Hornby wrote:Betty - surely you are thinking of Clegg....

At least the Italians did not bend over and say arse

Black Betty.Sorry I took so long in responding to your extreemly funny jibe, but I have only just got off the floor with laughing, I mean so funny and so orriginal.

orriginal is a very original spelling of original

Phil Hornby wrote:'I Know Best' Cameron Fails Again

"The UK and Italy have become embroiled in a diplomatic row over the failed hostage rescue bid in Nigeria.

Italian president Giorgio Napolitano branded Downing Street's failure to inform Rome "inexplicable".(my emphasis). British construction worker Chris McManus and his Italian co-worker Franco Lamolinara died on Thursday as Nigerian troops and UK Special Boat Service commandos tried to end their nine months in captivity." ( MSN News)

Another Cameron cock-up..... aided , no doubt, by his trusty colleague-in-calamity, Hague....

I am very surprised at you for this comment, You are usually quite witty and a joy to read.
This poor political point scoring is far beneath you.
Shame on you.

Ah atv! I'm glad that my Tory-like blaming of simply everything on the PM of the day has proved so offensive. It may serve as a reminder of what everyone had to put up with from Cameron and the likes of you up to May 2010...!

It may not be entirely fair to blame absolutely everything on the hapless Cameron, but what has he ever got right since assuming leadership of the Nation?

Anything?

Anything at all?

betty- noire

Please accept my humble apologies for my inexcusable (well to you it seems) spelling mistake, you see being Italian The English language may not come as easy to me as it does to you. Not only that, I also have trouble writing whilst walking backwards, you know when in retreat.

Ever so humbly Bobby, or Roberto if you prefer.

atv.
I remember all those posts from you, you blamed Gordon Brown for absolutely everything, if not him but Tony Blair. Phil kept saying, quite rightly, when the boot is on the other foot, he will enjoy doing the same to Herr Cameron and his Rhumba of Rattlesnakes. Well atv now Phils time has come, you don’t like it. Typical bleeding Tory.

bobby wrote:betty- noire

Please accept my humble apologies for my inexcusable (well to you it seems) spelling mistake, you see being Italian The English language may not come as easy to me as it does to you. Not only that, I also have trouble writing whilst walking backwards, you know when in retreat.

Ever so humbly Bobby, or Roberto if you prefer.

Bobby
its not your spelling that matters mate...it your posts...and on that score there very good bobby...we all make mistakes...me more than most..as I work at the same time as I post..plus I have three computers running with 6 phones on my desk..so spelling is a wee bit low down on my things to worry about...your a businessman so you know what comes first ha ha

still a nice reply bobby

Phil Hornby wrote:Ah atv! I'm glad that my Tory-like blaming of simply everything on the PM of the day has proved so offensive. It may serve as a reminder of what everyone had to put up with from Cameron and the likes of you up to May 2010...!

Good reply Phil

BOBBY!!!




An' there was me thinking Mr Hornby was the Silver Tongued Devil!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdVMvYj0HAs

Don't imagine it's easy for bobby to write legibly with his tongue rammed firmly in cheek.

Hello Stox my friend.
That’s all we need isn’t it. When the Country is quickly going down the pan. To have someone who seems to think that a simple spelling mistake is worth being sarcastic about. Talk about “how to make friends and influence people”. Never mind, it takes all sorts.

Thereby lays a story OW, you dona know howa longa ma tonga isa. I must be the most versatile person on this planet. Did you know, theres absolutely nothing I can't cock up. Now thats versatility.

bobby wrote:Hello Stox my friend.
That’s all we need isn’t it. When the Country is quickly going down the pan. To have someone who seems to think that a simple spelling mistake is worth being sarcastic about. Talk about “how to make friends and influence people”. Never mind, it takes all sorts.

Hello my good friend Bob
How very true...its just so stupid for words Bob...we all come on here to post in our free time..The very idea that spelling is more important than what you have to say is just mind blowing to me...I always find that when some one does this they are losing the debate... but you spot on..the UK economy is 100% more important that any spelling mistake... anyway..I.O.U a PM..so keep your eyes open..will try and post one too you in the next two nights

cheers my good friend
and keep up your great posts and Replies

STOX

bobby wrote:Thereby lays a story OW, you dona know howa longa ma tonga isa. I must be the most versatile person on this planet. Did you know, theres absolutely nothing I can't cock up. Now thats versatility.

That just makes you Human bob...thank God for that my friend

oftenwrong wrote:Don't imagine it's easy for bobby to write legibly with his tongue rammed firmly in cheek.

a very fair point OW

bobby wrote:atv.
I remember all those posts from you, you blamed Gordon Brown for absolutely everything, if not him but Tony Blair. Phil kept saying, quite rightly, when the boot is on the other foot, he will enjoy doing the same to Herr Cameron and his Rhumba of Rattlesnakes. Well atv now Phils time has come, you don’t like it. Typical bleeding Tory.

Bobby, that statement that I blamed Brown for everything is a lie. The only thing I did blame Brown for was the massive Uk deficit he left the UK with.
If Phil enjoys gloating over peoples death, and you think this is in retaliation for when Labour were in power well carry on. I suppose the six soldiers that were killed last week was Cameron's fault as well.
Well thank God I am not a typical bleeding Leftie.

Whose Death?

Your post is the first to mention that word?


And Blair got/gets the blame for many deaths as he started the whole thing off

The PM can start a fracas. The PM can end a fracas!

atv wrote:

bobby wrote:atv.
I remember all those posts from you, you blamed Gordon Brown for absolutely everything, if not him but Tony Blair. Phil kept saying, quite rightly, when the boot is on the other foot, he will enjoy doing the same to Herr Cameron and his Rhumba of Rattlesnakes. Well atv now Phils time has come, you don’t like it. Typical bleeding Tory.

Bobby, that statement that I blamed Brown for everything is a lie. The only thing I did blame Brown for was the massive Uk deficit he left the UK with.
If Phil enjoys gloating over peoples death, and you think this is in retaliation for when Labour were in power well carry on. I suppose the six soldiers that were killed last week was Cameron's fault as well.
Well thank God I am not a typical bleeding Leftie.

as a ex soldier, I find there deaths as a fault of no one here in the UK..As they died in action doing a job they loved..so I respect them very much..I have replied many times myself about the so called massive UK deficit that was left by the so-called last government...This argument is very old and does not stack up...you need to look at the world banking crisis for the majority of the UK debt after 2008...the real facts are will documented now

astra wrote:Whose Death?

Your post is the first to mention that word?

by Phil Hornby Yesterday at 9:18 pm

Italian president Giorgio Napolitano branded Downing Street's failure to inform Rome "inexplicable".(my emphasis). British construction worker Chris McManus and his Italian co-worker Franco Lamolinara died on Thursday as Nigerian troops and UK Special Boat Service commandos tried to end their nine months in captivity." ( MSN News)

Another Cameron cock-up..... aided , no doubt, by his trusty colleague-in-calamity, Hague....
.

Stox 16 wrote:[quote="atv I have replied many times myself about the so called massive UK deficit that was left by the so-called last government...This argument is very old and does not stack up...you need to look at the world banking crisis for the majority of the UK debt after 2008...the real facts are will documented now

The Labour government had overspent under both Tony Blair and Gordon Brown. An inherited budget surplus had become a regular budget deficit, predictions of economic growth were overly optimistic, and plans for public spending were unaffordable. When the financial crisis and recession of 2007–2009 hit, Mr. Brown, true to his prejudices and convictions, then spent much more. This dramatically worsened the state of public finances without avoiding recession.
The U.K. budget deficit in Labour’s last year rose to 11 percent of gross domestic product (GDP), the highest in the country’s peacetime history and the largest structural deficit in Europe.
Robin Harris writes for The Heritage Foundation, from where this article is adapted.

atv wrote:

astra wrote:Whose Death?

Your post is the first to mention that word?

by Phil Hornby Yesterday at 9:18 pm

Italian president Giorgio Napolitano branded Downing Street's failure to inform Rome "inexplicable".(my emphasis). British construction worker Chris McManus and his Italian co-worker Franco Lamolinara died on Thursday as Nigerian troops and UK Special Boat Service commandos tried to end their nine months in captivity." ( MSN News)

Another Cameron cock-up..... aided , no doubt, by his trusty colleague-in-calamity, Hague....
.

Sorry to up-set you. but know he only mistake we not to inform the Italian Government...Respect costs nothing at all...but as for trying to get them out...it was quite right in my own view that he did..its called duty to the people of the UK...its a great same he does not show the same duty to the whole UK economy..and not just a very small group of investment bankers

atv wrote:

Stox 16 wrote:[quote="atv I have replied many times myself about the so called massive UK deficit that was left by the so-called last government...This argument is very old and does not stack up...you need to look at the world banking crisis for the majority of the UK debt after 2008...the real facts are will documented now

The Labour government had overspent under both Tony Blair and Gordon Brown. An inherited budget surplus had become a regular budget deficit, predictions of economic growth were overly optimistic, and plans for public spending were unaffordable. When the financial crisis and recession of 2007–2009 hit, Mr. Brown, true to his prejudices and convictions, then spent much more. This dramatically worsened the state of public finances without avoiding recession.
The U.K. budget deficit in Labour’s last year rose to 11 percent of gross domestic product (GDP), the highest in the country’s peacetime history and the largest structural deficit in Europe.
Robin Harris writes for The Heritage Foundation, from where this article is adapted.

MYTH: Government debt is the highest it's ever been

The UK's government debt is at around 70 per cent of GDP (the total amount of goods and services produced in one year). That is certainly high, but it is far from unprecedented.

Government debt never fell below 100 per cent of GDP between 1920 and 1960. It is only in the past decade or so that it has become normal to think of government debt being stable at around 40 per cent of GDP.

It is worth noting that government debt reached 250 per cent of GDP around the end of the second world war, as the result of a 'once in a generation' economic and political crisis. It is certainly arguable that we are now living through a similarly momentous crisis.

MYTH: The UK's debt crisis is one of the worst in the world

Just as the current level of government debt is not unprecedented historically, neither is it substantially higher than that of other countries.

IMF data (IMF World Economic Outlook Database, April 2010) shows the UK has the lowest government debt as a proportion of GDP among the G7 countries (the US, Canada, Germany, Britain, Japan, Italy and France).

Much has been made by Cameron and Osborne of Gordon Brown's 'imprudent borrowing record'. They say that before the spending to stabilise the financial system, public debt was high.

But again, IMF comparisons of the level of public debt prior to 2007 showed the UK in a much better position than many comparable countries, such as France, Canada, the US and even Germany, the home of fiscal rectitude.

MYTH: Government debt is 'unsustainable'

The sustainability of government debt is not just dictated by its size, but by its make up. We have already seen that government debt is at a comparable level to other similarly sized economies. Where the UK is in a much stronger position, however, is in the nature of its debt.

While countries such as Greece tend to owe money to external financiers, the vast majority of UK debt - about 70 to 80 per cent - is held within the country.

And the UK's debt is not so short term. Countries such as Greece, Ireland and Portugal have average debt maturity rates of between six to eight years, but UK government debt stands out among international comparisons as being much longer term at well over 12 years on average.

This means that the UK has to ask the financial markets to refinance its debts much less frequently, making it less vulnerable to short-term speculative pressures and much more able to continue to finance its debts on a sustainable basis.

MYTH: The government shouldn't get into debt, just as your own household shouldn't

This overlooks the fact that, for the past 30 years, governments have positively encouraged households to get into debt.

In fact, it can be prudent for households to take on debt - particularly if they are borrowing to pay for something (a house or educational qualification) that might reasonably be expected to improve the household's income and well being in the long run.

In just the same way it is often sensible for governments to take on debt to pay for investments (such as housing or transport infrastructure) that will make the economy work better and so pay for themselves over the longer term.

But the public economy is also different from the household economy. What might make sense for a household could, for the government, deepen a recession. When times are hard households tend to tighten their belts - reducing their spending and borrowing. But if everyone does this at the same time, the effect is counterproductive: total demand for goods and services falls, which makes it harder for businesses and individuals to generate an income, and everyone ends up worse off.

This is exactly what is happening now, which is why it is essential for the government to compensate for households' reluctance to spend and invest.

MYTH: Public spending got 'out of control' under Labour

It is true that the Labour government gradually raised public spending in the early part of the decade, but it was from what were historically very low levels.

Levels of public spending are now about the same as they were in the early 1990s, at the time of the last economic crisis. This is because spending always rises during a recession as a result of welfare spending on unemployment.

In fact, levels of public spending as a proportion of GDP were much lower for most of the 2000s than they were than at any point since the 1960s.

Where Labour did spend more in the years after 2000, it was necessary to repair the visible effects of long-term under-investment. Who can forget schools and hospitals with buckets in the corner to catch the leaks, or grim city centre landscapes with crowds of homeless people sleeping rough?

Labour's increased spending also addressed workforce shortages in schools and the NHS, where more staff were needed to raise educational standards and care for an ageing population.

Rather than cutting such spending, the crisis could be an opportunity to build the infrastructure of a more energy-efficient, green economy. That would prepare us for the longer-term structural barriers to growth presented by climate change and the depletion of natural resources.


ECONOMIC MYTHS

MYTH: The UK has a big public sector compared to other countries

Public spending in the UK is lower as a proportion of the economy than in the likes of France, Italy, Austria and Belgium, as well as the Scandinavian countries (OECD World Factbook 2010).

And spending on core areas such as health and education remains comparable or low in relation to other OECD (broadly speaking, 'rich') countries.

For example, the UK spent just 8.4 per cent of its GDP on health in 2007, roughly half that spent in the United States (once the large private sector is taken into account) and well behind Germany, France and most other west European nations.

On education, the UK again spends less per pupil than most comparable OECD countries.

The UK is not profligate in public spending and does not have an oversized public sector compared to similar countries.

MYTH: Spending on the public sector is 'crowding out' private sector growth

It is argued that public spending comes at the expense of overall growth, because potential investment is being re-directed into taxation to fund an 'unproductive' public sector. But in fact investment in public infrastructure and services is essential to private sector productivity, and so is no less critical to future growth than private sector investment.

Furthermore, the UK is not a highly taxed economy. The OECD's comparative figures on taxation as a proportion of overall economic output show the UK way down the list, only just above the average.

It is sometimes suggested that taxes hit the private sector in such a way as to discourage job growth. Again, though, the data shows the UK to have very low levels of taxation per job: far lower than the OECD average.

The second way in which the public sector might be said to be crowding out private sector growth is by taking workers it needs, but this would only really be the case where the labour market was operating close to full employment.

With the unemployment rate at about 8 per cent, this is clearly not the case. and in many areas of public provision - from child protection, to education and training, to care for the elderly - there is a pressing need for more, not fewer, public service workers.

Finally, some argue that public investment 'crowds out' private investment, because government borrowing pushes up interest rates and inflation. But there is no evidence that this is currently a problem - real interest rates are low, and the economy is still operating well below its potential output, which means there is lots of room for non-inflationary public sector expansion.

In fact, in current circumstances, public spending is more likely to stimulate private sector investment by maintaining levels of demand and preventing a deeper collapse of economic activity.

MYTH: Public sector workers are overpaid

It is true that very recently average wages in the public sector have moved marginally above those in the private sector. This is mainly because privatisation has pushed many low-paid jobs out to the private sector.

The trend is not that public sector wages have risen sharply, but that private sector wages have fallen - a characteristic of the economic crisis. If we take a longer view, since the 1990s average public sector pay has not seen significantly more growth than the public sector.

And when private sector wages are split up to consider different sector and occupational patterns, a rather different picture emerges. Wage rates differ widely, with the average pulled down by very low wage sectors such as distribution, retail and hospitality.

What the data shows, therefore, is not that public sector workers are overpaid, but that some private sector workers are severely underpaid.

MYTH: The financial crisis was caused by a lack of money in circulation

This one is true to some extent, but it requires careful explanation. The system of finance capitalism pursued in the UK and US since the 1970s has continuously recycled economic surpluses away from the poor toward the rich. In both countries, the share of economic output taken up by wages (as opposed to profit) has fallen, and inequality has risen. The very affluent have got wealthier, at the expense of the rest of the population. In 2007/08 the richest tenth of the population had more than 30 per cent of total income ('Income Inequalities', poverty.org.uk).

In the post-war period, part of the role of the state was to redistribute economic surpluses to the wider population so that they could keep spending on goods and services. This was seen as so important precisely because large inequalities had been identified as one cause of the 1929 stock market crash and the subsequent depression.

For a while, the problem that rising inequality presented for growth was overcome by the use of credit and the super-exploitation of workers in the developing world, which allowed consumers to keep buying cheap products. This is one of the factors that fed the debt crisis.

So, yes, there is not enough money in circulation - but this is precisely because it has been captured by the super-rich.

MYTH: Cutting public spending will help us avoid economic disaster

A range of economists, from Larry Elliott of the Guardian to Nobel prize winning professors like Paul Krugman and Joseph Stiglitz, are warning that making cuts now raises the very real possibility of undermining the fragile economic recovery.

As every first year economics student knows, there are four main components of economic growth: (1) exports; (2) investment; (3) household spending; and (4) government spending.

Over the past two years, governments around the world have stepped in to bridge the gap in the first three by providing debt-financed public sector stimulus packages. There is precious little evidence that the private sector or households are ready or able to step up their activity to fill the gap, or that exports will increase in a world where our major trading partners are also reining in spending.

As such, any austerity programme may prematurely remove the foundations of the recovery and lead to a return to recession - a 'double dip'. This would be disastrous, not just for growth, but in turn for tax receipts and the capacity of the state to reduce the deficit and government debt.

How will that help to stabilise the world economy? How will it deal with the frequent, persistent and cumulative financial crises that are endemic to it, or overcome the pressing resource and environmental constraints that are so clear for all to see?

The economic crisis was a golden opportunity to move toward a more economically, socially and environmentally sustainable national and international economic system. For a while all countries were so concerned about the whole system that there was at least a chance to overcome narrow self-interest and look toward a more co-operative and sustainable future.

We are about to squander a once-in-a-generation opportunity for progressive change - unless, that is, we organise and campaign for an alternative.

MYTH: There is no alternative to cuts

The beginnings of an alternative have already been discussed. For example, Unison's alternative budget ('We can afford a fairer society', Unison Alternative Budget 2010) suggests that almost £4.7 billion could be raised each year from introducing a 50 per cent tax rate on incomes over £100,000.

About £5 billion could be raised every year from a tax on vacant housing; £25 billion a year could be raised by closing tax loopholes; and the IPPR think-tank has estimated that a 'Robin Hood tax' on financial transactions could raise another £20 billion a year (T Dolphin, Financial Sector Taxes, IPPR 2010).

All these taxation measures would be 'progressive' in the sense that they would divert wealth from the rich to the poor, in contrast to measures such as the government's VAT increase, which hits the poor hardest.

In addition, some of these ideas might have behavioural advantages: they could work against destabilising speculative financial flows, or lead to fewer empty houses.

Similarly, we could look at spending that really should be cut. For example, while estimates of the true costs of replacing the Trident nuclear weapon system vary widely, they tend always to come in above £80 billion over 25 years.

Getting rid of the cost of the war in Afghanistan, massive consultancy fees on private finance deals and contractors' profits in privatised public services would also make a difference.

We could also decide to manage the deficit and public spending in a long-term manner, targeting social issues such as inequality, under-investment in education and child poverty, and strongly regulating international financiers, banks, hedge funds and the like.

All of these are political choices.

We don't have to live in a world where unemployment co-exists with a long-hours culture in which workers are so stressed that mental health problems are on the rise.

We don't have to live in a world where bankers gamble millions across the world in elaborate financial casinos at the same time as 1.4 billion people live on less than $1.25 a day.

We don't have to live in a world where there is no limit to how much of our collective economic output goes to the rich, yet others do not have enough to eat.

It is worth remembering that after the last crisis of this scale and significance, and with public debt something like three and a half times the size it is today, we established the NHS, created the welfare state, put in place comprehensive education and built a vast number of public housing estates.

History tells us that there is more than one way out of an economic crisis.

I HAPPEN TO BELIEVE THIS A MOST FAIR SUMMARY OF THE UK ECONOMY..



Thanks to my friend Dr Alex Nunn of Leeds Metropolitan University