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Can God love? (Part 1)

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Post by Greatest I am Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:40 pm

First topic message reminder :

Can God love?

We are told that the mythical bible God is love or the epitome of love.

Archetypal Jesus said that we would know his people by the love, deeds and actions they showed others.

Jesus gave us examples of the deeds and works. Feed the poor, love all our neighbours, do not sin and many others.

Love then, seems to Jesus, to be something that must be shown by deeds, actions and works to be alive and true love. Love, like faith, without works is dead. Both St. James and Jesus agree on this.

It follows then that if God is not doing something to show this love then the love for man expressed in scriptures is wrong and God cannot love.

You are in the image of God. When you love someone you show them that love by works and deeds. This is how the recipient of that love knows it is there and that allows for reciprocity.  You will agree that without reciprocity, true love cannot exist between two individuals. We must do things for each other for true love to exist.

Imagine what those you love would think if you never did anything to express your love. Imagine what you would think of the love of others towards you if they never did anything to show they loved you.  See what I mean. Love always must have deeds to be real and true and reciprocity must be at play.

Love then has no choice but to be expressed if it is true love.

We are told that God loved his son so much that he planned to have him sacrificed even before the earth was created. This human sacrifice or any other human sacrifice, voluntary or not, is immoral and the notion that it is good to sacrifice an innocent victim to give the guilty believers a free ride into heaven is a completely self-gratifying notion and is completely immoral. One does not show love for someone by having them sacrificed for the sins of others when God himself stated that we are all responsible for our own salvation and cannot put that responsibility of the shoulders of a scapegoat Jesus.

Does love need deeds and works to be expressed?

Have you seen God express his love for us lately?

Regards
DL

These following speak to this issue if you wish to view them.

[youtube]
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Post by polyglide Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:12 pm

Shirina, if you believe the world is a peaceful place you will believe anything other than the truth.

There are nations at each others throats but dare not actually do anything about it because of the possible consequences to themselves.

That is not peace and can explode at any time.

There are also many actual wars in progress throughout the world, they may be small but those killed are just as dead as those in a world war.

Just wait and see the consequences of the action Israel will take against Iran.

Wake up and see the facts rather than fiction.
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Post by polyglide Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:14 pm

I have not the time at the present Tosh but will attempt to answer your opinions at a later date.
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Post by Tosh Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:37 pm

I have not the time at the present Tosh but will attempt to answer your opinions at a later date..

They are not my opinions, they are facts, the Pope does not accept common descent because it is my or any other atheists opinion.

The scientific and religious consensus is the evidence for common descent is incontrovertible, only a tiny minorit of the world's population believe Genesis to be literally true and nearly all of them reside in the the United States of Jesus.

150 milion creationists out of approx 6 billion is 2.5% of the population, now that is a minority view in anyones language.



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Post by Tosh Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:44 pm

Wake up and see the facts rather than fiction. .

Rather ironic coming from someone who actully believes Satan exists. Basketball

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Post by Tosh Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:50 pm

Washington (CNN) – The percentage of Americans 30 and younger who harbor some doubts about God’s existence appears to be growing quickly, according to a recent Pew Research Center survey. While most young Americans, 68%, told Pew they never doubt God’s existence, that’s a 15-point drop in just five years.

In 2007, 83% of American millennials said they never doubted God’s existence.

More young people are expressing doubts about God now than at any time since Pew started asking the question a decade ago. Thirty-one percent disagreed with the statement “I never doubt the existence of God,” double the number who disagreed with it in 2007.

The internet is working, and there is hope for America yet.
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Post by Shirina Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:54 pm

The internet is working, and there is hope for America yet.
The irony is that the Protestant Christian work ethic that pushes unfettered capitalism and a "succeed at any cost" mentality is keeping parents at work 'round the clock. Which means there is no one at home to indoctrinate children into Christianity. The children are left to decide for themselves, and when left to their own thoughts, they're able to think logically about whether these Bronze Age myths are real.

Funny how that works.
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Post by Tosh Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:56 pm

In a few generations America will be divided into two camps, atheists and creationists, now there is an incompatible mixture.

I see trouble ahead. Basketball
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Post by Shirina Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:18 pm

Shirina, if you believe the world is a peaceful place you will believe anything other than the truth.
Polyglide, you want the world to be on the cusp of WWIII because your faith needs it to be.

That doesn't mean it is.

I have given you facts and statistics which you have chosen to ignore. Violent crime is on the decrease, the vast majority of the world's peoples are not at war, and many nations around the world are seeing unprecedented prosperity and huge leaps in their standard of living. Many Asian nations were barely able to feed themselves half a century ago, and now India, for example, has the largest middle class in the world. But I'm not going to keep beating you over the head with reality. I'm going to keep on living life instead of wasting it waiting around for the dreaded apocalypse or Armageddon that shows no real sign of occurring.
There are nations at each others throats but dare not actually do anything about it because of the possible consequences to themselves.
If they're not doing anything about it, then they're at peace.

And that's the way it's always been ... for thousands of years. The fact that wars are far more devastating now than they were just 200 years ago keeps people and nations from waging them. It may not be a peace created out of Muslims and Christians dancing in meadow, but it IS still peace, and that is unlikely to change.
That is not peace and can explode at any time.
If they're not at war, then they're at peace. We've been waiting around for this sudden explosion of war for a long time, and we've already had some pretty good reasons to wage them. But we haven't. In most cases, nations have shown remarkable restraint. The specter of nuclear weapons gives us all the more incentive to work out our differences at the negotiating table.
There are also many actual wars in progress throughout the world, they may be small but those killed are just as dead as those in a world war.
Yes, there are a few small wars. There used to be a lot of BIG wars. There aren't, anymore. A person shot and killed during a bank robbery is just as dead as someone shot during a war, but we don't go around claiming WWIII is just around the corner because a hostage was killed during a heist in Duluth, Minnesota.
Just wait and see the consequences of the action Israel will take against Iran.
The consequences will be minimal. Even if Israel attacks Iran's nuclear program, Iran is going to have to ask itself if it really wants to wage war against the United States ... which is likely what will happen if Iran tries to retaliate. Russia and China will do what they always do ... wring their hands and issue condemnations at the United Nations. But I can guarantee you that neither China or Russia will go to war over Iran. And if Iran retaliates against Israel, well, if its a measured response, even the US might not do anything. If it's not, Iran's military will cease to exist in a few weeks. That's as far as it will go.
Wake up and see the facts rather than fiction.
Savor the irony. sunny
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Post by Tosh Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:39 pm

Jesus was an apocalypticist, he believed the end of the world was imminent.

He died nearly 2000 years ago, he was wrong.

Humans left Afica some 70,000 years ago to colonize the earth, humans needed fresh water to drink so they settled next to rivers and coastlines.

This is why every culture had flood myths, primitive humans did not understand why floods happened, they assumed it was the action of an unseen agent and they called them gods. When floods occurred they believed their gods were unhappy with them, they had done something wrong. They had no natural explanations of anything, thus they created supernatural explanations for everything, the river spirit became the sea god then the sky god and finally the out of our universe god.

God evolved just like everything else.



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Post by Tosh Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:49 pm

The model of sacrifice to the gods must have come from our social primate genes, a weaker member of the group gives up something it wants to prevent its survival being threatened by a stronger member, its a form of social bribe.

Chimps bow down to their superiors, we do the same.
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Post by Tosh Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:41 pm

A scientist, on the basis of much comparative anatomy and physiology, might hypothesize that, in the distant past, mammals evolved from reptiles. This would have testable consequences for the present state of the system (earth's surface with the geological strata in it and the animal and plant species living on it) in the form of reptile-mammal transition fossils that should exist, in addition to other necessary features of the DNA, developmental systems, and so forth, of the present-day reptiles and mammals.

What about repeatability? It is the observations that must be repeatable, if only to establish their validity independently of any one person's authority. This does not mean that the hypothetical mechanism or the phenomenon concerned must be repeatable or reproducible. In the experimental laboratory where the phenomena being studied are short-lived and transient, it is usually necessary to reproduce them in order to repeat the observations. But scientists must wait for the recurrence of natural phenomena—such as eclipses, earthquakes, seasonally recurring biological phenomena, and so forth. Yet, if a phenomenon is a stable, more or less permanent long-term condition, observations may be repeated anytime. A geologist may return to a geological formation to repeat or make new observations, or an anatomist or paleontologist may reexamine a museum specimen, either corroborating or refuting someone else's previous observations. Clearly, then, a hypothesis postulating a unique past event is scientific—as long as it has observable consequences for the present that can be repeatedly verified by any observer.

Thus we may conclude (as Popper did) that evolutionary theories or historical hypotheses about origins are no different than other scientific theories as far as their logical features are concerned and are just as falsifiable as hypotheses in the form of general laws and theories.

Basketball
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Post by Guest Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:20 am

Tosh wrote:
Texas,

It seems you have a problem with any scientific evidence that contradicts the Genesis myth…

I have slightly altered your text that I might address your concern. Altered text is underlined below.

Tosh wrote:
It seems you have a problem with any scientific evidence that contradicts the Genesis account

I have a problem with any scientific evidence that contradicts Big Bang.

Who-What-When-Where-How-Why exposition and comparison of Genesis 1:1 and Big Bang:

1. Genesis 1:1, brief exposition:

English, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Hebrew, “B’r’shythe bara Elohim et hashamayim ve’et ha’arets”.

  • Who: Elohim, power, plural of Eloah, power, by inference, incomprehensible, immeasurable power.

  • What, bara, created, by inference, created from nothing, et hashamayim ve’et ha’arets, the heavens (everything other than the earth), and the earth (everything other than the heavens), in total, everything, thus, bara… et hashamayim ve’et ha’arets, created everything from nothing.

  • When: B’r’shythe, the beginning, at the beginning, at the point of beginning, at the beginning point of everything, when everything begins.

  • Where: B’r’shythe, the beginning, at the beginning, at the point of beginning, at the beginning point of everything, where everything begins.

  • Why: Not addressed by Genesis 1:1 (addressed by Genesis 1:2 and following).

  • How: Not addressed by Genesis 1:1.


2. Big Bang, brief exposition:

Incomprehensible, immeasurable power, at/from “the singularity”, explodes the universe into existence from nothing.

  • Who: Incomprehensible, immeasurable power.

  • What, exploded everything (the university) into existence from nothing.

  • When: “the singularity”, the beginning, at the beginning, at the point of beginning, at the beginning point of everything, (b) when everything begins.

  • Where: “the singularity”, the beginning, at the beginning, at the point of beginning, at the beginning point of everything, where everything begins.

  • Why: Not addressed by Big Bang.

  • How: Addressed by Big Bang data set.


Feel free to have a problem with Big Bang if you so desire.

Tosh wrote:
… your selection process is rather unscientific.

I have engaged in no “selection process.”

Tosh wrote:
I am amused you have appointed yourself as a global authority on science and its methodology…

I am amused that you have appointed yourself as global monitor as to what I might or might not have appointed myself.

Tosh wrote:
… unfortunately for you and your case, your subjective perceptions are not evidence or proof of any scientific shortcomings.

Unfortunately for you and your speculative, conjectural ideology, your words hereon do not comprise proof of your speculative, conjectural ideology.

Tosh wrote:
Anytime you wish to disclose your scientific objections to the use of fossils and their dating methods, I will be all ears.

Anytime I have scientific objections to other people looking at bones in dated dirt, I will be all mouth.

Tosh wrote:
I hope it contains more evidentiary material than your objections to macro-evolution and order on earth.

I pray that your future presentations of your speculative, conjectural ideology (macro-evolutionism) contain evidentiary material beyond bones in dated dirt, which prove that there are bones in dated dirt, and nothing more, and which are evidence of appearance and disappearance of species, and nothing more.

I also pray that your future presentations of your speculative, conjectural ideology does not again posit that evidentiary material of micro-evolution, a proven fact (we know what it is) and theory (we pretty much know how it works), is evidence of macro-evolution, still unproven after all these years. The leap of faith from micro-evolution to macro-evolution is a prodigious leap indeed. Had Great Britain’s Olympic high jumpers, long jumpers, and pole vaulters been able to achieve such mighty leaps, the island nation would be awash in gold, silver, and bronze.

Tosh wrote:
There was no incontrovertible evidence of a flat earth…

There is no incontrovertible evidence of macro-evolution.

Tosh wrote:
… it was an optical illusion, a subjective perception that simply highlighted the need for an objective scientific method…

Macro-evolution is a mental illusion, a subjective conjecture that highlights the need for applying objective scientific standards to speculative, conjectural ideologies.

Tosh wrote:
… the very method you reject when the results contradict your subjective perceptions.

These are the very method I embrace. These are the very methods I allow to shape my perceptions that they might adhere to truth. These are the very methods that reveal macro-evolution as unproven, speculative conjecture.

Tosh wrote:
Galileo would have loved you.

I hope not. He wasn’t pretty, and he didn’t smell good.

Tosh wrote:
I must remind you that you have not provided one shred of evidence or proof that the scientific conclusions you oppose are false…

I have slightly altered your text that I might address your statement. Altered text is underlined below.

Tosh wrote:
I must remind you that you have not provided one shred of evidence or proof that the speculative conjecture you dispute is false…

I must remind you that you have not provided one shred of evidence or proof that the speculative conjecture you accept and propagate is true.

Tosh wrote:
… the only opinion worth its salt on this matter is the scientific consensus…

Truth is truth independent of opinions or consensus.

Tosh wrote:
… they happen to be qualified to make these judgements.

Professor Hoyle and his fellow steady staters were considered by themselves to be qualified to make their judgments.

Tosh wrote:
It matters not a jot what you consider to be evidence or proof or empirical…

It matters more than a to me that proof of macro-evolution is nonexistent.

Tosh wrote:
… nobody appointed you God of science…

Nobody appointed you creator of truth.

Tosh wrote:
… what matters is what the scientific body accept as evidence or proof or empirical.

What matters is truth.

Tosh wrote:
Would you like me to post again the percentage of qualified scientists who consider Common Descent a fact…

I would like you to post that your speculative, conjectural ideology of macro-evolutionism is truth.

Tosh wrote:
… would you like the scientific consensus on dating fossils embedded in rocks ?

Feel free to post “the scientific consensus on dating fossils embedded in rocks” if you so desire. If you do so, perhaps I shall point out that bones in dated dirt are proof of bones in dated dirt and nothing else.

Tosh wrote:
Texas, I will burst a rib if you start talking about flood geology.

Feel free to present that topic if you so desire.
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Post by polyglide Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:06 am

What planet are you on Shirina.

The worlds economy is on the point of calapse, even in the so called super rich oil states, people are leaving the gravy train being over and thousands are fearful for the future.

Even suicides are becoming a daily occurance and both America along with Great Britain AND MANY OTHER COUNTRIES ARE in dire straights.

Where on earth you get your figures regarding crime from I do not know, there is a murder or serious crimes reported daily and this has never previously been the case.

Crime figurers are a laugh, crimes previously recorded are now let off with a caution and they are not counted.

Wake up and see the light.
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Post by polyglide Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:25 am

This is a little story for all concerned and if the morals involved are not apparent to you then I will explain.

A young man of little education but with a firm appreciation of nature was going fishing as he had done since childhood.

On the way to the river he met a gentleman who was also going fishing and who had with him what seemed like enough equipment to last a life time, the young man had the same rod, a can of worms and the same reel he had used all his life

As they walked towards the river the gent explained that he had read everything regarding fishing and was indeed an expert and could recite word for word many things regarding the sport that had been written in the past.

The young man thought by the time he got to the river the expert would have caught all the fish.

However, the gent having chosen where to fish the young man walked on to a place he always used and within a couple of minutes was fishing away and catching fish after fish so much so that he ran out of worms and decided to call it a day.

On passing the expert he noticed a whole lot of tackle spread out along the bank and the expert looking perplexed he asked how many fish he had caught and the expert expained that he had just bought a new real and found he could not work out the way it was supposed to be used and he had not actually started fishing.

With a wry smile the young man went on his way and thanked the Lord he was not an expert.




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Post by Tosh Wed Aug 29, 2012 1:53 pm

polyglide, you do make me laugh.

What planet are you on Shirina.

She is on planet Earth wth me, all this crime is the work of Satan, time for an apocalypse..............after the Ryder Cup of course.


Steven Pinker on How Violence is Actually in Decline in the Long Term




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xjpm5vbNGdE
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Post by Shirina Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:24 pm

With a wry smile the young man went on his way and thanked the Lord he was not an expert.

Religion thrives on ignorance. It always has and it always will.
Even suicides are becoming a daily occurance

I wonder how many of those suicides are a result of religious oppression and bullying. We're sure seeing a lot of suicides here in the US for that reason, especially young gay folks being tormented by religiously-inspired hatred.

The worlds economy is on the point of calapse

The world's economy, which is led by the United States, is in dire straits due largely to the Protestant Christian work ethic -- if you can't work, you don't eat. It isn't a coincidence, Polyglide, that nations with the highest standard of living and the lowest wealth and income disparities are predominantly atheistic.

Crime figurers are a laugh, crimes previously recorded are now let off with a caution and they are not counted.

Religion also thrives on denial. If the facts don't say what you want them to say, then, well, they must be wrong or deliberately falsified.
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Post by Tosh Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:39 pm

Texas,

Still waiting.

29+ Evidences for Macroevolution, The Scientific Case for Common Descent.


http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/
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Post by Tosh Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:36 pm

I have a problem with any scientific evidence that contradicts Big Bang.


So do I, unfortunately for you science does not conclude the evidence for Common Descent contradicts BB, and let me repeat, science is the authorative body on scientific matters, you and your empirical blindfold are not.

I have engaged in no “selection process. I am amused that you have appointed yourself as global monitor as to what I might or might not have appointed myself. ”

Incorrect, science only allocates the term " theory" and " fact " to conclusions that are supported by an incontrovertible body of evidence, you select which theories are valid or not, your selection process is by definition unscientific. The evidence to support my conclusion is empirical and incontrovertible, you have appointed yourself above and beyond the scientific consensus and you are not even a scientist, how does that work Texas my old friend ?

Science concludes life on earth or Common Descent does not contradict the 2nd law of thermodynamics for the reasons previously stated, now do you accept this or not ?

Science concludes transitional fossils are evidence of macroevolution, they do not conclude as you do that these are all seperate species created by Yahweh, appearing and disappearing at random.
The reasons behind this conclusion my friend is because these transitional fossils just happen to be found in the exact chronological order as predicted by macrevolution, there are no birds before dinosaur/birds. etc etc, not one fossil out of evolutionary sequence.
We have living taxa that still mutate back into this transitional form( Atavism), ever see a whale with a leg and toes and all 5-6 week human embryos have a developing tail vertebrae.

The genetic evidence confirms exactly the fossil record:

FIRST GENETIC EVIDENCE UNCOVERED OF HOW MAJOR CHANGES
IN BODY SHAPES OCCURRED DURING EARLY ANIMAL EVOLUTION

Biologists at the University of California, San Diego have uncovered the first genetic evidence that explains how large-scale alterations to body plans were accomplished during the early evolution of animals.

In an advance online publication February 6 by Nature of a paper scheduled to appear in Nature, the scientists show how mutations in regulatory genes that guide the embryonic development of crustaceans and fruit flies allowed aquatic crustacean-like arthropods, with limbs on every segment of their bodies, to evolve 400 million years ago into a radically different body plan: the terrestrial six-legged insects.

The achievement is a landmark in evolutionary biology, not only because it shows how new animal body plans could arise from a simple genetic mutation, but because it effectively answers a major criticism creationists had long leveled against evolution—the absence of a genetic mechanism that could permit animals to introduce radical new body designs.

“The problem for a long time has been over this issue of macroevolution,” says William McGinnis, a professor in UCSD’s Division of Biology who headed the study. “How can evolution possibly introduce big changes into an animal’s body shape and still generate a living animal? Creationists have argued that any big jump would result in a dead animal that wouldn’t be able to perpetuate itself. And until now, no one’s been able to demonstrate how you could do that at the genetic level with specific instructions in the genome.”


I have only scratched the surface from the link I provided to you.

If you have a scientific mind that seeks the truth then read it and tell me your objections.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/









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Post by Tosh Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:07 pm

Texas,

The primary function of science is to demonstrate the existence of phenomena that cannot be observed directly. Science is not needed to show us things we can see with our own eyes. Direct observation is not only unnecessary in science; direct observation is in fact usually impossible for the things that really matter. In fact, the most important discoveries of science have only be inferred via indirect observation. Familiar examples of unobservable scientific discoveries are atoms, electrons, viruses, bacteria, germs, radio-waves, X-rays, ultraviolet light, energy, entropy, enthalpy, solar fusion, genes, protein enzymes, and the DNA double-helix. The round earth was not observed directly by humans until 1961, yet this counterintuitive concept had been considered a scientific fact for over 2000 years. The Copernican hypothesis that the earth orbits the sun has been acknowledged virtually ever since the time of Galileo, even though no one has ever observed the process to this day. All of these "invisible" phenomena were elucidated using the scientific method of inference. When the term "evidence" is used in this article, it is used strictly with respect to this scientific method.


The scientific method is a program for research which comprises four main steps. In practice these steps follow more of a logical order than a chronological one:

1.Make observations.
2.Form a testable, unifying hypothesis to explain these observations.
3.Deduce predictions from the hypothesis.
4.Search for confirmations of the predictions;
if the predictions are contradicted by empirical observation, go back to step (2).

Examination of the scientific method reveals that science involves much more than naive empiricism. Research that only involves simple observation, repetition, and measurement is not sufficient to count as science. These three techniques are merely part of the process of making observations (#1 in the steps outlined above). Astrologers, wiccans, alchemists, and shamans all observe, repeat, and measure — but they do not practice science. Clearly, what distinguishes science is the way in which observations are interpreted, tested, and used.

It seems your standards of proof are actually irrational and unscientific. Basketball


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Post by Tosh Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:31 pm

A scientific theory is "a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment." Scientists create scientific theories from hypotheses that have been corroborated through the scientific method, then gather evidence to test their accuracy. As with all forms of scientific knowledge, scientific theories are inductive in nature and do not make apodictic propositions; instead, they aim for predictive and explanatory force.The strength of a scientific theory is related to the diversity of phenomena it can explain, which is measured by its ability to make falsifiable predictions with respect to those phenomena. Theories are improved as more evidence is gathered, so that accuracy in prediction improves over time. Scientists use theories as a foundation to gain further scientific knowledge, as well as to accomplish goals such as inventing technology or curing disease. Scientific theories are the most reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive form of scientific knowledge. This is significantly different from the word "theory" in common usage, which implies that something is unproven or speculative.


Darwins Theory of Evolution states Common Descent which includes macroevolution. Very Happy

Tosh
Tosh

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Join date : 2012-08-15

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Can God love? (Part 1) - Page 13 Empty Re: Can God love? (Part 1)

Post by Guest Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:02 am

Tosh wrote:
Texas,

Still waiting.

Scot,

Still waiting for what?

Tosh wrote:
It seems your standards of proof are actually irrational and unscientific.

It seems that “my” standards of proof (I don’t own them) are the standards of proof which are required of micro-evolution (proven), Einstein’s Special Theory of Relativity (proven), Einstein’s General Theory of Relativity (proven), and the Big Bang Theory (proven, although you seem not to believe it).

Tosh wrote:
Darwins Theory of Evolution states Common Descent which includes macroevolution.

I’ve slightly altered your text that I might respond to your assertion. Altered text is underlined below.

With RockOnBrother’s alterations, Tosh wrote:
Darwin’s speculative conjecture of macro-evolution states Common Descent which includes macroevolution.

Darwin’s speculative conjecture of macro-evolution remains unproven.
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