Can God love? (Part 1)
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Can God love? (Part 1)
First topic message reminder :
Can God love?
We are told that the mythical bible God is love or the epitome of love.
Archetypal Jesus said that we would know his people by the love, deeds and actions they showed others.
Jesus gave us examples of the deeds and works. Feed the poor, love all our neighbours, do not sin and many others.
Love then, seems to Jesus, to be something that must be shown by deeds, actions and works to be alive and true love. Love, like faith, without works is dead. Both St. James and Jesus agree on this.
It follows then that if God is not doing something to show this love then the love for man expressed in scriptures is wrong and God cannot love.
You are in the image of God. When you love someone you show them that love by works and deeds. This is how the recipient of that love knows it is there and that allows for reciprocity. You will agree that without reciprocity, true love cannot exist between two individuals. We must do things for each other for true love to exist.
Imagine what those you love would think if you never did anything to express your love. Imagine what you would think of the love of others towards you if they never did anything to show they loved you. See what I mean. Love always must have deeds to be real and true and reciprocity must be at play.
Love then has no choice but to be expressed if it is true love.
We are told that God loved his son so much that he planned to have him sacrificed even before the earth was created. This human sacrifice or any other human sacrifice, voluntary or not, is immoral and the notion that it is good to sacrifice an innocent victim to give the guilty believers a free ride into heaven is a completely self-gratifying notion and is completely immoral. One does not show love for someone by having them sacrificed for the sins of others when God himself stated that we are all responsible for our own salvation and cannot put that responsibility of the shoulders of a scapegoat Jesus.
Does love need deeds and works to be expressed?
Have you seen God express his love for us lately?
Regards
DL
These following speak to this issue if you wish to view them.
[youtube]
Can God love?
We are told that the mythical bible God is love or the epitome of love.
Archetypal Jesus said that we would know his people by the love, deeds and actions they showed others.
Jesus gave us examples of the deeds and works. Feed the poor, love all our neighbours, do not sin and many others.
Love then, seems to Jesus, to be something that must be shown by deeds, actions and works to be alive and true love. Love, like faith, without works is dead. Both St. James and Jesus agree on this.
It follows then that if God is not doing something to show this love then the love for man expressed in scriptures is wrong and God cannot love.
You are in the image of God. When you love someone you show them that love by works and deeds. This is how the recipient of that love knows it is there and that allows for reciprocity. You will agree that without reciprocity, true love cannot exist between two individuals. We must do things for each other for true love to exist.
Imagine what those you love would think if you never did anything to express your love. Imagine what you would think of the love of others towards you if they never did anything to show they loved you. See what I mean. Love always must have deeds to be real and true and reciprocity must be at play.
Love then has no choice but to be expressed if it is true love.
We are told that God loved his son so much that he planned to have him sacrificed even before the earth was created. This human sacrifice or any other human sacrifice, voluntary or not, is immoral and the notion that it is good to sacrifice an innocent victim to give the guilty believers a free ride into heaven is a completely self-gratifying notion and is completely immoral. One does not show love for someone by having them sacrificed for the sins of others when God himself stated that we are all responsible for our own salvation and cannot put that responsibility of the shoulders of a scapegoat Jesus.
Does love need deeds and works to be expressed?
Have you seen God express his love for us lately?
Regards
DL
These following speak to this issue if you wish to view them.
[youtube]
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Tosh wrote:
It has been some time since the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics has been used in an evolution argument…
Au contraire. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics has been used unto my sight and hearing numerous times (most recently, Wednesday 15 August 2012) within the past two and three quarter decades to belie macro-evolution.
Tosh wrote:
… there is a very good reason for this, its pure bunkum…
The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is scientific law. Darwinism is “pure bunkum.”
Tosh wrote:
… there are many examples of self-organization and self-assembly in nature…
These “examples of self-organization and self-assembly in nature” provide compelling evidence of intelligent design in nature and intelligent design of nature. Moreover, the intelligent designer thereof, due to his ability to accomplish that which contradicts the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, demonstrates mastery over a scientific law so compellingly that a mere human such as me contemplates his accomplishments with awe and a sense of wonder.
Tosh wrote:
… nature is not a closed or isolated physical system…
Au contraire. See below.
Tosh wrote:
… nature is… an open system( external energy from the sun is constantly raining down upon the earth).
You have just verified the fact that nature is an integral part of the universe, which is a closed system, and has been a closed system since existence was exploded into existence b’r’shythe, at the singularly, in the beginning. Since that moment of the creation of all that is, was, and ever will be within space/time, including space/time itself, nothing has been created or destroyed, only altered.
Guest- Guest
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
"Love" is the name given to one of the human Control Games. See how many others you can name.
oftenwrong- Sage
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Texas,
The scientific community does not accept evolution contradicts the 2nd law, what can I say:
The scientific community does not accept evolution contradicts the 2nd law, what can I say:
Evolution violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics."
This shows more a misconception about thermodynamics than about evolution. The second law of thermodynamics says, "No process is possible in which the sole result is the transfer of energy from a cooler to a hotter body." [Atkins, 1984, The Second Law, pg. 25] Now you may be scratching your head wondering what this has to do with evolution. The confusion arises when the 2nd law is phrased in another equivalent way, "The entropy of a closed system cannot decrease." Entropy is an indication of unusable energy and often (but not always!) corresponds to intuitive notions of disorder or randomness. Creationists thus misinterpret the 2nd law to say that things invariably progress from order to disorder.
However, they neglect the fact that life is not a closed system. The sun provides more than enough energy to drive things. If a mature tomato plant can have more usable energy than the seed it grew from, why should anyone expect that the next generation of tomatoes can't have more usable energy still? Creationists sometimes try to get around this by claiming that the information carried by living things lets them create order. However, not only is life irrelevant to the 2nd law, but order from disorder is common in nonliving systems, too. Snowflakes, sand dunes, tornadoes, stalactites, graded river beds, and lightning are just a few examples of order coming from disorder in nature; none require an intelligent program to achieve that order. In any nontrivial system with lots of energy flowing through it, you are almost certain to find order arising somewhere in the system. If order from disorder is supposed to violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics, why is it ubiquitous in nature?
The thermodynamics argument against evolution displays a misconception about evolution as well as about thermodynamics, since a clear understanding of how evolution works should reveal major flaws in the argument. Evolution says that organisms reproduce with only small changes between generations (after their own kind, so to speak). For example, animals might have appendages which are longer or shorter, thicker or flatter, lighter or darker than their parents. Occasionally, a change might be on the order of having four or six fingers instead of five. Once the differences appear, the theory of evolution calls for differential reproductive success. For example, maybe the animals with longer appendages survive to have more offspring than short-appendaged ones. All of these processes can be observed today. They obviously don't violate any physical laws.
Last edited by Tosh on Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:32 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Texas,
Your insistance that all scientific theories must be proved in the same way is more of a personal quirk than a scientific rebuttal, as I said there is no debate in the scientific community that macro-evolution is both theory and fact.
Your insistance that all scientific theories must be proved in the same way is more of a personal quirk than a scientific rebuttal, as I said there is no debate in the scientific community that macro-evolution is both theory and fact.
The term "macroevolution" frequently arises within the context of the evolution/creation debate, usually used by creationists alleging a significant difference between the evolutionary changes observed in field and laboratory studies and the larger scale macroevolutionary changes that scientists believe to have taken thousands or millions of years to occur. They accept that evolutionary change is possible within what they call "kinds" ("microevolution"), but deny that one "kind" can evolve into another ("macroevolution"). [12] Contrary to this belief among the anti-evolution movement proponents, evolution of life forms beyond the species level ("macroevolution", i.e. speciation in a specific case) has indeed been observed multiple times under both controlled laboratory conditions and in nature.[13] In creation science, creationists accepted speciation as occurring within a "created kind" or "baramin", but objected to what they called "third level-macroevolution" of a new genus or higher rank in taxonomy. Generally, there is ambiguity as to where they draw a line on "species", "created kinds", etc. and what events and lineages fall within the rubric of microevolution or macroevolution.[14] The claim that macroevolution does not occur, or is impossible, is not supported by the scientific community.
Such claims are rejected by the scientific community on the basis of ample evidence that macroevolution is an active process both presently and in the past.[5][15] The terms macroevolution and microevolution relate to the same processes operating at different scales, but creationist claims misuse the terms in a vaguely defined way which does not accurately reflect scientific usage, acknowledging well observed evolution as "microevolution" and denying that "macroevolution" takes place.[5][16] Evolutionary theory (including macroevolutionary change) remains the dominant scientific paradigm for explaining the origins of Earth's biodiversity. Its occurrence is not disputed within the scientific community.[17] While details of macroevolution are continuously studied by the scientific community, the overall theory behind macroevolution (i.e. common descent) has been overwhelmingly consistent with empirical data. Predictions of empirical data from the theory of common descent have been so consistent that biologists often refer to it as the "fact of evolution".[18][19]
Nicholas Matzke and Paul R. Gross have accused creationists of using "strategically elastic" definitions of micro- and macroevolution when discussing the topic.[1] The actual definition of macroevolution accepted by scientists is "any change at the species level or above" (phyla, group, etc.) and microevolution is "any change below the level of species." Matzke and Gross state that many creationist critics define macroevolution as something that cannot be attained, as these critics describe any observed evolutionary change as "just microevolution".[1]
Last edited by Tosh on Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:26 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Please do not present bones in the dirt as proof of macro-evolution. Bones in the dirt are proof of bones in the dirt and nothing else.
Texas,
Science considers bones in the dirt as evidence of transitional fossils and you do not, science considers bones on living animals as evidence of macro evolution ( whale wth feet) and you do not, and science considers the 5/6 methods of dating as reasonably accurate, and you do not.
The only pattern I see is your unwillingness to accept a standard of evidence or proof or tests that science considers sufficient.
Delusion is any belief that denies incontrovertible evidence, the scientific community consider the evidence for macro-evolution " incontrovertible".
Last edited by Tosh on Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:47 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Thank you for verifying the fact that Christians did not gas 6 million Jews.
Texas,
You are suggesting Christians who sin are not really Christians, since all humans sin then according to you, there are no Christians, includng you.
If people do good things they are Christians and if people do bad things then they are not Christians, is that how it really works ?
This suggest the definition of a Christian is based soley on actions and not beliefs, and that is your own personal definition, it is not recognised by many Christian faiths.....or me.
When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."
Last edited by Tosh on Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:35 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Au contraire. I insist on a level of proof consistent with science.
This is funny coming from a person who rejects the scientific consensus. .
Science does not make unfounded assumptions. The axiom of a powerful god is an unfounded assumption.
Scientific Community Consensus and the Macroevolution Position. A 1997 Gallup poll indicated that 55% of United States scientists believed that humans developed over a period of millions of years from less developed forms of life and that God had no part in the process, 40% believed in theistic evolution, and 5% of scientists believed that God created man fairly much in his current form at one time within the last 10,000 years.
You are one of the 5%.
In addition, a survey found that 93% of the scientists who were members of the United States National Academy of Sciences do not believe there is a God.
What possible proof would make 93% of the cream of science atheists ?
Texas my friend, there may be some logical arguments for the case of a creator, but there is no scientific arguments.
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
The evidence and the conclusion are independent of any specific gradualistic explanatory mechanisms for the origin and evolution of macroevolutionary adaptations. This is why scientists call universal common descent the "fact of evolution". As explained in the introduction, none of the predictions directly address how macroevolution has occurred; nevertheless, the validity of the macroevolutionary conclusion does not depend on whether Darwinism, Lamarckism (i.e. inheritance of acquired characaters), or something else is the true mechanism of adaptive evolutionary change. The macroevolutionary conclusion stands, regardless.
Texas, just for an ex-physics student.
This point has an interesting parallel in physics. Newton's theory of universal gravitation describes a phenomenon of matter, just as macroevolution describes a phenomenon of life. The theory of universal gravitation is also independent of the specific explanatory mechanism for gravity, and in fact Newton never gave a mechanism for gravity. Why does the force between two masses follow the inverse square law and not another law (perhaps an inverse cube law)? It took nearly 300 years before any plausible mechanisms for gravity were proposed (by quantum field theorists). None of these proposed mechanisms currently have any experimental support. Additionally, theories of gravity are strictly dependent upon the concept of mass, and there currently is no empirically supported mechanism for giving mass to matter. Charles Darwin is considered such a great scientific mind because, unlike Newton and Einstein who proposed only descriptive theories, Darwin proposed both a descriptive theory and a plausible mechanism. That mechanism is, of course, heritable variation with natural selection.
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Are There Other Scientifically Valid Explanations?
The worldwide scientific research community from over the past 150 years has discovered that no known hypothesis other than universal common descent can account scientifically for the unity, diversity, and patterns of terrestrial life. This hypothesis has been verified and corroborated so extensively that it is currently accepted as fact by the overwhelming majority of professional researchers in the biological and geological sciences (AAAS 1990; AAAS 2006; GSA 2009; NAS 2005; NCSE 2012; Working Group 2001). No alternate explanations compete scientifically with common descent, primarily for four main reasons: (1) so many of the predictions of common descent have been confirmed from independent areas of science, (2) no significant contradictory evidence has yet been found, (3) competing possibilities have been contradicted by enormous amounts of scientific data, and (4) many other explanations are untestable, though they may be trivially consistent with biological data.
Texas,
Why are these people so convinced that Common Descent ( macro-evolution) is a scientific fact and why is Genesis not considered an alternaive explanation.
Tosh- Posts : 2270
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
"your mind encourages you to deny death because it removes the fear of death"
My mind and thousands of others do NOT fear death Tosh. Does yours?
My mind and thousands of others do NOT fear death Tosh. Does yours?
Mel- Posts : 1703
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Tosh wrote:
Re: Can God love?
by Tosh on Sun 26 Aug 2012 - 8:40
Texas,
The scientific community does not accept [that macro-] evolution contradicts the 2nd law…
The seafaring community going west on the surface of the Atlantic Ocean aboard the Pinta, the Niña, and the Santa Maria didn’t accept that observational data contradicted flat earth.
Tosh wrote:
… what can I say:
You can say that “[the] scientific community” (whatever that might be) is in error. Bandwagons often travel off course.
Tosh wrote:
"Evolution violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics."
This shows more a misconception about thermodynamics than about evolution. The second law of thermodynamics says, "No process is possible in which the sole result is the transfer of energy from a cooler to a hotter body." [Atkins, 1984, The Second Law, pg. 25]…
That’s not all the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics says. Read on, your words:
Tosh wrote:
… the 2nd law is phrased in another equivalent way, "The entropy of a closed system cannot decrease."
Now you’re getting there. Keep going.
Tosh wrote:
Entropy… often (but not always!) corresponds to intuitive notions of disorder or randomness.
Yep; order to disorder, organization o randomness, is the “order”, or “disorder”, of the day, week, month, year, decade, century, millennium, age, era (those last two may be our of “order”, but disorder is the order of the day), and so forth, and so on.
Tosh wrote:
Creationists thus misinterpret the 2nd law to say that things invariably progress from order to disorder.
First point: I’m a truthist, not a Creationist; I’ve no use for any ideology in seeking truth. Y’shua Moshiach said “You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.” My mediator and savior never said “You shall know the ideology, and the ideology shall set you free.” Ideologies enslave ideologues. Truth frees ex-ideologues.
The fact that things do not invariably progress from order to disorder is compelling evidence of design and designer.
Tosh wrote:
However, they neglect the fact that life is not a closed system.
Life is a part of a closed system in which matter/energy is neither created nor destroyed.
Tosh wrote:
The sun provides more than enough energy to drive things.
The sun is part of a closed system wherein star matter coverts to energy via fusion in a cycle wherein old stars die as new stars are born as matter/energy is conserved in the closed system we call the universe.
Tosh wrote:
If a mature tomato plant can have more usable energy than the seed it grew from, why should anyone expect that the next generation of tomatoes can't have more usable energy still?
The generations of all tomatoes, past, present, and future, are a part of the closed system we call the universe.
Tosh wrote:
… the information carried by living things lets them create order.
Where did the information originate? Since there has never been empirical data documenting random generation and transmission of organized information, the overarching presence of such information routinely transmitted within individual life forms and from life form generation to generation provides compelling evidence of design and designer>
Tosh wrote:
.. not only is life irrelevant to the 2nd law…
Au contraire. Life defies the 2nd law, thus providing compelling evidence of design and designer. When one defies something, that something which one defies is not irrelevant to oneself.
Tosh wrote:
… order from disorder is common in nonliving systems, too. Snowflakes, sand dunes, tornadoes, stalactites, graded river beds, and lightning are just a few examples of order coming from disorder in nature…
More compelling evidence of design and designer. Watch out, now; you’re creeping up on providing evidence beyond a reasonable doubt of overarching, universe wide, design and designer.
Tosh wrote:
… none require an intelligent program to achieve that order.
Yes they do. Your computer and the systems you access, all programmed in binomial code (base two, 0 and 1), did not become programmed by random chance. All programs are designed by a designer.
Tosh wrote:
… you are almost certain to find order arising somewhere in the system.
That order does not arrive by random chance; thus, “order arising” provides compelling evidence beyond a reasonable doubt of design and designer.
Tosh wrote:
If order from disorder is supposed to violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics…
Order from disorder does in fact violate the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.
Tosh wrote:
… why is it ubiquitous in nature?
Design and designer.
Let’s see if we can discern the identity of the designer.
IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America
When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
Hmmm…
Tosh wrote:
… a clear understanding of how [macro-] evolution works should reveal major flaws in the argument.
Until empirical data, observational data, and replicable application prove that macro-evolution works, macro-evolution doesn’t work.
Tosh wrote:
Evolution says that organisms reproduce with only small changes between generations (after their own kind, so to speak). For example, animals might have appendages which are longer or shorter, thicker or flatter, lighter or darker than their parents.
Micro-evolution, concisely exposited. Meet the Malamute, the Border Collie, and the Shetland Sheepdog (Sheltie).
Tosh wrote:
Occasionally, a change might be on the order of having four or six fingers instead of five. Once the differences appear, the theory of [macro-] evolution calls for differential reproductive success.
I’ve altered your text that I might address its actual meanings. Altered text is italicized below.
Tosh wrote:
Occasionally, a change might be on the order of having four or six fingers instead of five. Once the differences appear, the conjecture of [macro-] evolution calls for differential reproductive success.
The underlined term conveys the conjectural nature of the statement.
Tosh wrote:
All of these processes can be observed today.
All of these processes are examples of micro-evolution. Salukis (long legs); Terriers, (short legs).
Guest- Guest
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Tosh wrote:
Texas,
Your insistance that all scientific theories must be proved in the same way is more of a personal quirk than a scientific rebuttal…
Au contraire, Scot. My insistence that all scientific theories must be proved in the same way is the way I roll. “Justice is blind”; all proposed theories known to me are assessed by me with blindfold in place. The General and Special Theories of Relativity pass muster; the Conjecture of Macro-evolution does not.
Tosh wrote:
… as I said there is no debate in the scientific community that macro-evolution is both theory and fact.
Yes there is. Darwinist often tempt to silence debate by financial pressure, in one case known to me a scientist and publisher of “peer review” journal was threatened with unemployment for publishing a dissenting view authored by highly credentialed scientist. Go figure.
Guest- Guest
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
My mind and thousands of others do NOT fear death Tosh. Does yours?.
If I feared death then my mind would believe in an afterlife, just like yours does, it is not a coincidence that the vast majority of religions sell the sweet taste of immortality.
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Texas my " Intelligent Design " friend,
Intelligent Design (formerly known as Creation Science) has been dismissed as non-science in both Science and in Law, the conspiracy against your version of the truth grows wider every minute, next it will include governments, the media and the IMF.
Okie Dokie, your hypothesis is the universe " must " have been intelligently designed by Yahweh in the manner detailed in Genesis. The SCIENTIFIC THEORY of Common descent cannot be true because it breaks the 2nd Law of thermodynamics and all evidence that supports the SCIENTIFIC THEORY may be acceptable to the global scientific consensus but in your opinion it is pure conjecture.
You are not qualifed to dismiss the empirical/observable data proving macro-evolution, try rebutting the evidence. We cannot replicate many things that take millions of years, and yet you accept them without a thought. No offence but you have no authority to insist on higher standards of proof than the authority of science. For your information, in genetics there is no macro-micro evolution only evolution.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/
If the universe was intelligently designed, what evidence do you have it was Yahweh ?
Intelligent Design (formerly known as Creation Science) has been dismissed as non-science in both Science and in Law, the conspiracy against your version of the truth grows wider every minute, next it will include governments, the media and the IMF.
Okie Dokie, your hypothesis is the universe " must " have been intelligently designed by Yahweh in the manner detailed in Genesis. The SCIENTIFIC THEORY of Common descent cannot be true because it breaks the 2nd Law of thermodynamics and all evidence that supports the SCIENTIFIC THEORY may be acceptable to the global scientific consensus but in your opinion it is pure conjecture.
The second law allows order to increase locally ( in an open system), provided the local increase is offset by an equal or greater decrease in the rest of the universe. The second law of thermodynamics only dictates that order cannot increase in an isolated (closed) system, and the Earth is not a closed system, it receives energy locally from the Sun.Life is a part of a closed system in which matter/energy is neither created nor destroyed.
The second law says that entropy will be maximized, or potentials minimized, but it does not ask or answer the question of which out of available paths a system will take to accomplish this end. The answer to the question is that the system will select the path or assembly of paths out of otherwise available paths that minimizes the potential or maximizes the entropy at the fastest rate given the constraints. This is a statement of the law of maximum entropy production the physical selection principle that provides the nomological explanation.
Until empirical data, observational data, and replicable application prove that macro-evolution works, macro-evolution doesn’t work.
You are not qualifed to dismiss the empirical/observable data proving macro-evolution, try rebutting the evidence. We cannot replicate many things that take millions of years, and yet you accept them without a thought. No offence but you have no authority to insist on higher standards of proof than the authority of science. For your information, in genetics there is no macro-micro evolution only evolution.
Contrary to this belief among the anti-evolution movement proponents, evolution of life forms beyond the species level ("macroevolution", i.e. speciation in a specific case) has indeed been observed multiple times under both controlled laboratory conditions and in nature.[
29+ Evidences for Macroevolution.The Scientific Case for Common Descent.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/
If the universe was intelligently designed, what evidence do you have it was Yahweh ?
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Tosh wrote:
Texas,
… science considers the 5/6 methods of dating as reasonably accurate, and you do not.
Au contraire, Scot, if by “5/6 methods of dating”, you are referring to carbon dating, “half lifes”, and the like. For the time being, absent any “breaking news”, I accept the dating of the dirt.
I do not believe in the dating of the dirt, as I am not a “date dirtist”, an ideologue whose ideology, “date dirtism” requires that its believers adhere to date dirtism’s sacred tenet, “When carbon speaketh, thou shalt heedeth.”
Tosh wrote:
The only pattern I see is your unwillingness to accept a standard of evidence or proof or tests that science considers sufficient.
I accept the same standard of evidence for micro-evolution (proven), general relativity (proven), special relativity (proven), and macro-evolution (unproven).
It appears that you have no problem accepting macro-evolution sans proof thereof. As for me, I’m glad that RN and USN submariners do not depend upon replicating macro-evolution to survive eight hundred plus feet under the ocean’s surface.
Tosh wrote:
Delusion is any belief that denies incontrovertible evidence…
Delusion is belief that incontrovertible evidence exists for something for which incontrovertible evidence does not exist. Belief in macro-evolution because of nonexistent incontrovertible evidence is delusion.
For those who choose to believe in macro-evolution “because I’m grown, damnit, and I can believe what I want to”, that’s not delusion; that’s free choice, into which they were created by their Creator (see Genesis 1:26-27).
Tosh wrote:
… the scientific community consider the evidence for macro-evolution " incontrovertible".
Of the mariner community aboard the Pinta, the Niña, and the Santa Maria in 1492, all but one considered the evidence for flat earth incontrovertible.
Guest- Guest
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Texas,
It seems you have a problem with any scientific evidence that contradicts the Genesis myth, your selection process is rather unscientific. I am amused you have appointed yourself as a global authority on science and its methodology, unfortunately for you and your case, your subjective perceptions are not evidence or proof of any scientific shortcomings. Anytime you wish to disclose your scientific objections to the use of fossils and their dating methods, I will be all ears. I hope it contains more evidentiary material than your objections to macro-evolution and order on earth.
I must remind you that you have not provided one shred of evidence or proof that the scientific conclusions you oppose are false, telling me they are conjecture does not really count, you must demonstrate it.
If your rebuttal simply consists of your opinion on modern science then you are wasting your breath, the only opinion worth its salt on this matter is the scientific consensus, they happen to be qualified to make these judgements. It matters not a jot what you consider to be evidence or proof or empirical, nobody appointed you God of science,what matters is what the scientific body accept as evidence or proof or empirical.
Would you like me to post again the percentage of qualified scientists who consider Common Descent a fact and would you like the scientific consensus on dating fossils embedded in rocks ?
Texas, I will burst a rib if you start talking about flood geology.
It seems you have a problem with any scientific evidence that contradicts the Genesis myth, your selection process is rather unscientific. I am amused you have appointed yourself as a global authority on science and its methodology, unfortunately for you and your case, your subjective perceptions are not evidence or proof of any scientific shortcomings. Anytime you wish to disclose your scientific objections to the use of fossils and their dating methods, I will be all ears. I hope it contains more evidentiary material than your objections to macro-evolution and order on earth.
Evolution is not disputed within the scientific community and academia, where the level of support for evolution is essentially universal, while support for Abrahamic accounts or other creationary alternatives is very low among scientists, and virtually nonexistent among scientists in the relevant fields.The debate is sometimes portrayed as being between science and religion. However, as the United States National Academy of Sciences states:
Today, many religious denominations accept that biological evolution has produced the diversity of living things over billions of years of Earth's history. Many have issued statements observing that evolution and the tenets of their faiths are compatible. Scientists and theologians have written eloquently about their awe and wonder at the history of the universe and of life on this planet, explaining that they see no conflict between their faith in God and the evidence for evolution. Religious denominations that do not accept the occurrence of evolution tend to be those that believe in strictly literal interpretations of religious texts.
—National Academy of Sciences, Science, Evolution, and Creationism
There was no incontrovertible evidence of a flat earth, it was an optical illusion, a subjective perception that simply highlighted the need for an objective scientific method, the very method you reject when the results contradict your subjective perceptions. Galileo would have loved you.Of the mariner community aboard the Pinta, the Niña, and the Santa Maria in 1492, all but one considered the evidence for flat earth incontrovertible.
I must remind you that you have not provided one shred of evidence or proof that the scientific conclusions you oppose are false, telling me they are conjecture does not really count, you must demonstrate it.
If your rebuttal simply consists of your opinion on modern science then you are wasting your breath, the only opinion worth its salt on this matter is the scientific consensus, they happen to be qualified to make these judgements. It matters not a jot what you consider to be evidence or proof or empirical, nobody appointed you God of science,what matters is what the scientific body accept as evidence or proof or empirical.
Would you like me to post again the percentage of qualified scientists who consider Common Descent a fact and would you like the scientific consensus on dating fossils embedded in rocks ?
Texas, I will burst a rib if you start talking about flood geology.
Last edited by Tosh on Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
Tosh- Posts : 2270
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Still at it Tosh?
By the very energy you are asserting within your prolific posting you are beginning to make me think that you are a little concerned that sooner or later you will run out of argument.
By the very energy you are asserting within your prolific posting you are beginning to make me think that you are a little concerned that sooner or later you will run out of argument.
Mel- Posts : 1703
Join date : 2011-10-08
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Still at it Tosh?
Mel,...ahem...tap...tap...tap...it may have escaped your notice but this is a discussion board and unlike you I am discussing the thread topic
By the very energy you are asserting within your prolific posting you are beginning to make me think that you are a little concerned that sooner or later you will run out of argument.
You do have a rather strange way of thinking about everything, it takes no energy and little time to make 84 posts, if 84 posts is prolific then what do you call 1045 or 1994 posts ?
From your spurious posts, it seems it is not I who is runnng out of argument, may I suggest you stick to the thread topic instead of discussing my good self, your moderator status means diddly squat to me.
Tosh- Posts : 2270
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
What I am trying to fathom out is when creationists think Yahweh created humans, in fact what do they consider a human to be, is it Homo Erectus or Neanderthal or Homo Sapiens, and how do they decide since they do not accept the fossil record or the dating methods ?
Do they really believe Yahweh was popping back and forward creating new species hundreds of millions of years apart ?
Why is there no fossils of Homo Sapiens before Erectus, why no fossils of Erectus before Habilis, why no fossils of Habilis before Austrolapythicus, is it sheer coincidence that as we travel backwards hominids become more primate like ?
Why do chimps have 24 pairs of chromosomes and humans 23 with a fused pair of chromosomes ?
Why do we share 97% of our DNA with chimps ?
Why do humans have a tail bone with no tail ?
Why are we hairy in the womb ?
Do they really believe Yahweh was popping back and forward creating new species hundreds of millions of years apart ?
Why is there no fossils of Homo Sapiens before Erectus, why no fossils of Erectus before Habilis, why no fossils of Habilis before Austrolapythicus, is it sheer coincidence that as we travel backwards hominids become more primate like ?
Why do chimps have 24 pairs of chromosomes and humans 23 with a fused pair of chromosomes ?
Why do we share 97% of our DNA with chimps ?
Why do humans have a tail bone with no tail ?
Why are we hairy in the womb ?
Tosh- Posts : 2270
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Shirina- Former Administrator
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Shirina, if you believe the world is a peaceful place you will believe anything other than the truth.
There are nations at each others throats but dare not actually do anything about it because of the possible consequences to themselves.
That is not peace and can explode at any time.
There are also many actual wars in progress throughout the world, they may be small but those killed are just as dead as those in a world war.
Just wait and see the consequences of the action Israel will take against Iran.
Wake up and see the facts rather than fiction.
There are nations at each others throats but dare not actually do anything about it because of the possible consequences to themselves.
That is not peace and can explode at any time.
There are also many actual wars in progress throughout the world, they may be small but those killed are just as dead as those in a world war.
Just wait and see the consequences of the action Israel will take against Iran.
Wake up and see the facts rather than fiction.
polyglide- Posts : 3118
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
I have not the time at the present Tosh but will attempt to answer your opinions at a later date.
polyglide- Posts : 3118
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
I have not the time at the present Tosh but will attempt to answer your opinions at a later date..
They are not my opinions, they are facts, the Pope does not accept common descent because it is my or any other atheists opinion.
The scientific and religious consensus is the evidence for common descent is incontrovertible, only a tiny minorit of the world's population believe Genesis to be literally true and nearly all of them reside in the the United States of Jesus.
150 milion creationists out of approx 6 billion is 2.5% of the population, now that is a minority view in anyones language.
Last edited by Tosh on Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
Tosh- Posts : 2270
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Wake up and see the facts rather than fiction. .
Rather ironic coming from someone who actully believes Satan exists.
Tosh- Posts : 2270
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Washington (CNN) – The percentage of Americans 30 and younger who harbor some doubts about God’s existence appears to be growing quickly, according to a recent Pew Research Center survey. While most young Americans, 68%, told Pew they never doubt God’s existence, that’s a 15-point drop in just five years.
In 2007, 83% of American millennials said they never doubted God’s existence.
More young people are expressing doubts about God now than at any time since Pew started asking the question a decade ago. Thirty-one percent disagreed with the statement “I never doubt the existence of God,” double the number who disagreed with it in 2007.
The internet is working, and there is hope for America yet.
Tosh- Posts : 2270
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
The irony is that the Protestant Christian work ethic that pushes unfettered capitalism and a "succeed at any cost" mentality is keeping parents at work 'round the clock. Which means there is no one at home to indoctrinate children into Christianity. The children are left to decide for themselves, and when left to their own thoughts, they're able to think logically about whether these Bronze Age myths are real.The internet is working, and there is hope for America yet.
Funny how that works.
Shirina- Former Administrator
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
In a few generations America will be divided into two camps, atheists and creationists, now there is an incompatible mixture.
I see trouble ahead.
I see trouble ahead.
Tosh- Posts : 2270
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Polyglide, you want the world to be on the cusp of WWIII because your faith needs it to be.Shirina, if you believe the world is a peaceful place you will believe anything other than the truth.
That doesn't mean it is.
I have given you facts and statistics which you have chosen to ignore. Violent crime is on the decrease, the vast majority of the world's peoples are not at war, and many nations around the world are seeing unprecedented prosperity and huge leaps in their standard of living. Many Asian nations were barely able to feed themselves half a century ago, and now India, for example, has the largest middle class in the world. But I'm not going to keep beating you over the head with reality. I'm going to keep on living life instead of wasting it waiting around for the dreaded apocalypse or Armageddon that shows no real sign of occurring.
If they're not doing anything about it, then they're at peace.There are nations at each others throats but dare not actually do anything about it because of the possible consequences to themselves.
And that's the way it's always been ... for thousands of years. The fact that wars are far more devastating now than they were just 200 years ago keeps people and nations from waging them. It may not be a peace created out of Muslims and Christians dancing in meadow, but it IS still peace, and that is unlikely to change.
If they're not at war, then they're at peace. We've been waiting around for this sudden explosion of war for a long time, and we've already had some pretty good reasons to wage them. But we haven't. In most cases, nations have shown remarkable restraint. The specter of nuclear weapons gives us all the more incentive to work out our differences at the negotiating table.That is not peace and can explode at any time.
Yes, there are a few small wars. There used to be a lot of BIG wars. There aren't, anymore. A person shot and killed during a bank robbery is just as dead as someone shot during a war, but we don't go around claiming WWIII is just around the corner because a hostage was killed during a heist in Duluth, Minnesota.There are also many actual wars in progress throughout the world, they may be small but those killed are just as dead as those in a world war.
The consequences will be minimal. Even if Israel attacks Iran's nuclear program, Iran is going to have to ask itself if it really wants to wage war against the United States ... which is likely what will happen if Iran tries to retaliate. Russia and China will do what they always do ... wring their hands and issue condemnations at the United Nations. But I can guarantee you that neither China or Russia will go to war over Iran. And if Iran retaliates against Israel, well, if its a measured response, even the US might not do anything. If it's not, Iran's military will cease to exist in a few weeks. That's as far as it will go.Just wait and see the consequences of the action Israel will take against Iran.
Savor the irony.Wake up and see the facts rather than fiction.
Shirina- Former Administrator
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Jesus was an apocalypticist, he believed the end of the world was imminent.
He died nearly 2000 years ago, he was wrong.
Humans left Afica some 70,000 years ago to colonize the earth, humans needed fresh water to drink so they settled next to rivers and coastlines.
This is why every culture had flood myths, primitive humans did not understand why floods happened, they assumed it was the action of an unseen agent and they called them gods. When floods occurred they believed their gods were unhappy with them, they had done something wrong. They had no natural explanations of anything, thus they created supernatural explanations for everything, the river spirit became the sea god then the sky god and finally the out of our universe god.
God evolved just like everything else.
He died nearly 2000 years ago, he was wrong.
Humans left Afica some 70,000 years ago to colonize the earth, humans needed fresh water to drink so they settled next to rivers and coastlines.
This is why every culture had flood myths, primitive humans did not understand why floods happened, they assumed it was the action of an unseen agent and they called them gods. When floods occurred they believed their gods were unhappy with them, they had done something wrong. They had no natural explanations of anything, thus they created supernatural explanations for everything, the river spirit became the sea god then the sky god and finally the out of our universe god.
God evolved just like everything else.
Last edited by Tosh on Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
Tosh- Posts : 2270
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
The model of sacrifice to the gods must have come from our social primate genes, a weaker member of the group gives up something it wants to prevent its survival being threatened by a stronger member, its a form of social bribe.
Chimps bow down to their superiors, we do the same.
Chimps bow down to their superiors, we do the same.
Tosh- Posts : 2270
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
A scientist, on the basis of much comparative anatomy and physiology, might hypothesize that, in the distant past, mammals evolved from reptiles. This would have testable consequences for the present state of the system (earth's surface with the geological strata in it and the animal and plant species living on it) in the form of reptile-mammal transition fossils that should exist, in addition to other necessary features of the DNA, developmental systems, and so forth, of the present-day reptiles and mammals.
What about repeatability? It is the observations that must be repeatable, if only to establish their validity independently of any one person's authority. This does not mean that the hypothetical mechanism or the phenomenon concerned must be repeatable or reproducible. In the experimental laboratory where the phenomena being studied are short-lived and transient, it is usually necessary to reproduce them in order to repeat the observations. But scientists must wait for the recurrence of natural phenomena—such as eclipses, earthquakes, seasonally recurring biological phenomena, and so forth. Yet, if a phenomenon is a stable, more or less permanent long-term condition, observations may be repeated anytime. A geologist may return to a geological formation to repeat or make new observations, or an anatomist or paleontologist may reexamine a museum specimen, either corroborating or refuting someone else's previous observations. Clearly, then, a hypothesis postulating a unique past event is scientific—as long as it has observable consequences for the present that can be repeatedly verified by any observer.
Thus we may conclude (as Popper did) that evolutionary theories or historical hypotheses about origins are no different than other scientific theories as far as their logical features are concerned and are just as falsifiable as hypotheses in the form of general laws and theories.
Tosh- Posts : 2270
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Tosh wrote:
Texas,
It seems you have a problem with any scientific evidence that contradicts the Genesis myth…
I have slightly altered your text that I might address your concern. Altered text is underlined below.
Tosh wrote:
It seems you have a problem with any scientific evidence that contradicts the Genesis account…
I have a problem with any scientific evidence that contradicts Big Bang.
Who-What-When-Where-How-Why exposition and comparison of Genesis 1:1 and Big Bang:
1. Genesis 1:1, brief exposition:
English, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Hebrew, “B’r’shythe bara Elohim et hashamayim ve’et ha’arets”.
- Who: Elohim, power, plural of Eloah, power, by inference, incomprehensible, immeasurable power.
- What, bara, created, by inference, created from nothing, et hashamayim ve’et ha’arets, the heavens (everything other than the earth), and the earth (everything other than the heavens), in total, everything, thus, bara… et hashamayim ve’et ha’arets, created everything from nothing.
- When: B’r’shythe, the beginning, at the beginning, at the point of beginning, at the beginning point of everything, when everything begins.
- Where: B’r’shythe, the beginning, at the beginning, at the point of beginning, at the beginning point of everything, where everything begins.
- Why: Not addressed by Genesis 1:1 (addressed by Genesis 1:2 and following).
- How: Not addressed by Genesis 1:1.
2. Big Bang, brief exposition:
Incomprehensible, immeasurable power, at/from “the singularity”, explodes the universe into existence from nothing.
- Who: Incomprehensible, immeasurable power.
- What, exploded everything (the university) into existence from nothing.
- When: “the singularity”, the beginning, at the beginning, at the point of beginning, at the beginning point of everything, (b) when everything begins.
- Where: “the singularity”, the beginning, at the beginning, at the point of beginning, at the beginning point of everything, where everything begins.
- Why: Not addressed by Big Bang.
- How: Addressed by Big Bang data set.
Feel free to have a problem with Big Bang if you so desire.
Tosh wrote:
… your selection process is rather unscientific.
I have engaged in no “selection process.”
Tosh wrote:
I am amused you have appointed yourself as a global authority on science and its methodology…
I am amused that you have appointed yourself as global monitor as to what I might or might not have appointed myself.
Tosh wrote:
… unfortunately for you and your case, your subjective perceptions are not evidence or proof of any scientific shortcomings.
Unfortunately for you and your speculative, conjectural ideology, your words hereon do not comprise proof of your speculative, conjectural ideology.
Tosh wrote:
Anytime you wish to disclose your scientific objections to the use of fossils and their dating methods, I will be all ears.
Anytime I have scientific objections to other people looking at bones in dated dirt, I will be all mouth.
Tosh wrote:
I hope it contains more evidentiary material than your objections to macro-evolution and order on earth.
I pray that your future presentations of your speculative, conjectural ideology (macro-evolutionism) contain evidentiary material beyond bones in dated dirt, which prove that there are bones in dated dirt, and nothing more, and which are evidence of appearance and disappearance of species, and nothing more.
I also pray that your future presentations of your speculative, conjectural ideology does not again posit that evidentiary material of micro-evolution, a proven fact (we know what it is) and theory (we pretty much know how it works), is evidence of macro-evolution, still unproven after all these years. The leap of faith from micro-evolution to macro-evolution is a prodigious leap indeed. Had Great Britain’s Olympic high jumpers, long jumpers, and pole vaulters been able to achieve such mighty leaps, the island nation would be awash in gold, silver, and bronze.
Tosh wrote:
There was no incontrovertible evidence of a flat earth…
There is no incontrovertible evidence of macro-evolution.
Tosh wrote:
… it was an optical illusion, a subjective perception that simply highlighted the need for an objective scientific method…
Macro-evolution is a mental illusion, a subjective conjecture that highlights the need for applying objective scientific standards to speculative, conjectural ideologies.
Tosh wrote:
… the very method you reject when the results contradict your subjective perceptions.
These are the very method I embrace. These are the very methods I allow to shape my perceptions that they might adhere to truth. These are the very methods that reveal macro-evolution as unproven, speculative conjecture.
Tosh wrote:
Galileo would have loved you.
I hope not. He wasn’t pretty, and he didn’t smell good.
Tosh wrote:
I must remind you that you have not provided one shred of evidence or proof that the scientific conclusions you oppose are false…
I have slightly altered your text that I might address your statement. Altered text is underlined below.
Tosh wrote:
I must remind you that you have not provided one shred of evidence or proof that the speculative conjecture you dispute is false…
I must remind you that you have not provided one shred of evidence or proof that the speculative conjecture you accept and propagate is true.
Tosh wrote:
… the only opinion worth its salt on this matter is the scientific consensus…
Truth is truth independent of opinions or consensus.
Tosh wrote:
… they happen to be qualified to make these judgements.
Professor Hoyle and his fellow steady staters were considered by themselves to be qualified to make their judgments.
Tosh wrote:
It matters not a jot what you consider to be evidence or proof or empirical…
It matters more than a to me that proof of macro-evolution is nonexistent.
Tosh wrote:
… nobody appointed you God of science…
Nobody appointed you creator of truth.
Tosh wrote:
… what matters is what the scientific body accept as evidence or proof or empirical.
What matters is truth.
Tosh wrote:
Would you like me to post again the percentage of qualified scientists who consider Common Descent a fact…
I would like you to post that your speculative, conjectural ideology of macro-evolutionism is truth.
Tosh wrote:
… would you like the scientific consensus on dating fossils embedded in rocks ?
Feel free to post “the scientific consensus on dating fossils embedded in rocks” if you so desire. If you do so, perhaps I shall point out that bones in dated dirt are proof of bones in dated dirt and nothing else.
Tosh wrote:
Texas, I will burst a rib if you start talking about flood geology.
Feel free to present that topic if you so desire.
Guest- Guest
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
What planet are you on Shirina.
The worlds economy is on the point of calapse, even in the so called super rich oil states, people are leaving the gravy train being over and thousands are fearful for the future.
Even suicides are becoming a daily occurance and both America along with Great Britain AND MANY OTHER COUNTRIES ARE in dire straights.
Where on earth you get your figures regarding crime from I do not know, there is a murder or serious crimes reported daily and this has never previously been the case.
Crime figurers are a laugh, crimes previously recorded are now let off with a caution and they are not counted.
Wake up and see the light.
The worlds economy is on the point of calapse, even in the so called super rich oil states, people are leaving the gravy train being over and thousands are fearful for the future.
Even suicides are becoming a daily occurance and both America along with Great Britain AND MANY OTHER COUNTRIES ARE in dire straights.
Where on earth you get your figures regarding crime from I do not know, there is a murder or serious crimes reported daily and this has never previously been the case.
Crime figurers are a laugh, crimes previously recorded are now let off with a caution and they are not counted.
Wake up and see the light.
polyglide- Posts : 3118
Join date : 2012-02-13
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
This is a little story for all concerned and if the morals involved are not apparent to you then I will explain.
A young man of little education but with a firm appreciation of nature was going fishing as he had done since childhood.
On the way to the river he met a gentleman who was also going fishing and who had with him what seemed like enough equipment to last a life time, the young man had the same rod, a can of worms and the same reel he had used all his life
As they walked towards the river the gent explained that he had read everything regarding fishing and was indeed an expert and could recite word for word many things regarding the sport that had been written in the past.
The young man thought by the time he got to the river the expert would have caught all the fish.
However, the gent having chosen where to fish the young man walked on to a place he always used and within a couple of minutes was fishing away and catching fish after fish so much so that he ran out of worms and decided to call it a day.
On passing the expert he noticed a whole lot of tackle spread out along the bank and the expert looking perplexed he asked how many fish he had caught and the expert expained that he had just bought a new real and found he could not work out the way it was supposed to be used and he had not actually started fishing.
With a wry smile the young man went on his way and thanked the Lord he was not an expert.
A young man of little education but with a firm appreciation of nature was going fishing as he had done since childhood.
On the way to the river he met a gentleman who was also going fishing and who had with him what seemed like enough equipment to last a life time, the young man had the same rod, a can of worms and the same reel he had used all his life
As they walked towards the river the gent explained that he had read everything regarding fishing and was indeed an expert and could recite word for word many things regarding the sport that had been written in the past.
The young man thought by the time he got to the river the expert would have caught all the fish.
However, the gent having chosen where to fish the young man walked on to a place he always used and within a couple of minutes was fishing away and catching fish after fish so much so that he ran out of worms and decided to call it a day.
On passing the expert he noticed a whole lot of tackle spread out along the bank and the expert looking perplexed he asked how many fish he had caught and the expert expained that he had just bought a new real and found he could not work out the way it was supposed to be used and he had not actually started fishing.
With a wry smile the young man went on his way and thanked the Lord he was not an expert.
polyglide- Posts : 3118
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
polyglide, you do make me laugh.
She is on planet Earth wth me, all this crime is the work of Satan, time for an apocalypse..............after the Ryder Cup of course.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xjpm5vbNGdE
What planet are you on Shirina.
She is on planet Earth wth me, all this crime is the work of Satan, time for an apocalypse..............after the Ryder Cup of course.
Steven Pinker on How Violence is Actually in Decline in the Long Term
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xjpm5vbNGdE
Tosh- Posts : 2270
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
With a wry smile the young man went on his way and thanked the Lord he was not an expert.
Religion thrives on ignorance. It always has and it always will.
Even suicides are becoming a daily occurance
I wonder how many of those suicides are a result of religious oppression and bullying. We're sure seeing a lot of suicides here in the US for that reason, especially young gay folks being tormented by religiously-inspired hatred.
The worlds economy is on the point of calapse
The world's economy, which is led by the United States, is in dire straits due largely to the Protestant Christian work ethic -- if you can't work, you don't eat. It isn't a coincidence, Polyglide, that nations with the highest standard of living and the lowest wealth and income disparities are predominantly atheistic.
Crime figurers are a laugh, crimes previously recorded are now let off with a caution and they are not counted.
Religion also thrives on denial. If the facts don't say what you want them to say, then, well, they must be wrong or deliberately falsified.
Shirina- Former Administrator
- Posts : 2232
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Location : Right behind you. Boo!
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Texas,
Still waiting.
29+ Evidences for Macroevolution, The Scientific Case for Common Descent.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/
Still waiting.
29+ Evidences for Macroevolution, The Scientific Case for Common Descent.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/
Tosh- Posts : 2270
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
I have a problem with any scientific evidence that contradicts Big Bang.
So do I, unfortunately for you science does not conclude the evidence for Common Descent contradicts BB, and let me repeat, science is the authorative body on scientific matters, you and your empirical blindfold are not.
I have engaged in no “selection process. I am amused that you have appointed yourself as global monitor as to what I might or might not have appointed myself. ”
Incorrect, science only allocates the term " theory" and " fact " to conclusions that are supported by an incontrovertible body of evidence, you select which theories are valid or not, your selection process is by definition unscientific. The evidence to support my conclusion is empirical and incontrovertible, you have appointed yourself above and beyond the scientific consensus and you are not even a scientist, how does that work Texas my old friend ?
Science concludes life on earth or Common Descent does not contradict the 2nd law of thermodynamics for the reasons previously stated, now do you accept this or not ?
Science concludes transitional fossils are evidence of macroevolution, they do not conclude as you do that these are all seperate species created by Yahweh, appearing and disappearing at random.
The reasons behind this conclusion my friend is because these transitional fossils just happen to be found in the exact chronological order as predicted by macrevolution, there are no birds before dinosaur/birds. etc etc, not one fossil out of evolutionary sequence.
We have living taxa that still mutate back into this transitional form( Atavism), ever see a whale with a leg and toes and all 5-6 week human embryos have a developing tail vertebrae.
The genetic evidence confirms exactly the fossil record:
FIRST GENETIC EVIDENCE UNCOVERED OF HOW MAJOR CHANGES
IN BODY SHAPES OCCURRED DURING EARLY ANIMAL EVOLUTION
Biologists at the University of California, San Diego have uncovered the first genetic evidence that explains how large-scale alterations to body plans were accomplished during the early evolution of animals.
In an advance online publication February 6 by Nature of a paper scheduled to appear in Nature, the scientists show how mutations in regulatory genes that guide the embryonic development of crustaceans and fruit flies allowed aquatic crustacean-like arthropods, with limbs on every segment of their bodies, to evolve 400 million years ago into a radically different body plan: the terrestrial six-legged insects.
The achievement is a landmark in evolutionary biology, not only because it shows how new animal body plans could arise from a simple genetic mutation, but because it effectively answers a major criticism creationists had long leveled against evolution—the absence of a genetic mechanism that could permit animals to introduce radical new body designs.
“The problem for a long time has been over this issue of macroevolution,” says William McGinnis, a professor in UCSD’s Division of Biology who headed the study. “How can evolution possibly introduce big changes into an animal’s body shape and still generate a living animal? Creationists have argued that any big jump would result in a dead animal that wouldn’t be able to perpetuate itself. And until now, no one’s been able to demonstrate how you could do that at the genetic level with specific instructions in the genome.”
I have only scratched the surface from the link I provided to you.
If you have a scientific mind that seeks the truth then read it and tell me your objections.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/
Last edited by Tosh on Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
Tosh- Posts : 2270
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Texas,
It seems your standards of proof are actually irrational and unscientific.
The primary function of science is to demonstrate the existence of phenomena that cannot be observed directly. Science is not needed to show us things we can see with our own eyes. Direct observation is not only unnecessary in science; direct observation is in fact usually impossible for the things that really matter. In fact, the most important discoveries of science have only be inferred via indirect observation. Familiar examples of unobservable scientific discoveries are atoms, electrons, viruses, bacteria, germs, radio-waves, X-rays, ultraviolet light, energy, entropy, enthalpy, solar fusion, genes, protein enzymes, and the DNA double-helix. The round earth was not observed directly by humans until 1961, yet this counterintuitive concept had been considered a scientific fact for over 2000 years. The Copernican hypothesis that the earth orbits the sun has been acknowledged virtually ever since the time of Galileo, even though no one has ever observed the process to this day. All of these "invisible" phenomena were elucidated using the scientific method of inference. When the term "evidence" is used in this article, it is used strictly with respect to this scientific method.
The scientific method is a program for research which comprises four main steps. In practice these steps follow more of a logical order than a chronological one:
1.Make observations.
2.Form a testable, unifying hypothesis to explain these observations.
3.Deduce predictions from the hypothesis.
4.Search for confirmations of the predictions;
if the predictions are contradicted by empirical observation, go back to step (2).
Examination of the scientific method reveals that science involves much more than naive empiricism. Research that only involves simple observation, repetition, and measurement is not sufficient to count as science. These three techniques are merely part of the process of making observations (#1 in the steps outlined above). Astrologers, wiccans, alchemists, and shamans all observe, repeat, and measure — but they do not practice science. Clearly, what distinguishes science is the way in which observations are interpreted, tested, and used.
It seems your standards of proof are actually irrational and unscientific.
Last edited by Tosh on Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
Tosh- Posts : 2270
Join date : 2012-08-15
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
A scientific theory is "a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment." Scientists create scientific theories from hypotheses that have been corroborated through the scientific method, then gather evidence to test their accuracy. As with all forms of scientific knowledge, scientific theories are inductive in nature and do not make apodictic propositions; instead, they aim for predictive and explanatory force.The strength of a scientific theory is related to the diversity of phenomena it can explain, which is measured by its ability to make falsifiable predictions with respect to those phenomena. Theories are improved as more evidence is gathered, so that accuracy in prediction improves over time. Scientists use theories as a foundation to gain further scientific knowledge, as well as to accomplish goals such as inventing technology or curing disease. Scientific theories are the most reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive form of scientific knowledge. This is significantly different from the word "theory" in common usage, which implies that something is unproven or speculative.
Darwins Theory of Evolution states Common Descent which includes macroevolution.
Tosh- Posts : 2270
Join date : 2012-08-15
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Tosh wrote:
Texas,
Still waiting.
Scot,
Still waiting for what?
Tosh wrote:
It seems your standards of proof are actually irrational and unscientific.
It seems that “my” standards of proof (I don’t own them) are the standards of proof which are required of micro-evolution (proven), Einstein’s Special Theory of Relativity (proven), Einstein’s General Theory of Relativity (proven), and the Big Bang Theory (proven, although you seem not to believe it).
Tosh wrote:
Darwins Theory of Evolution states Common Descent which includes macroevolution.
I’ve slightly altered your text that I might respond to your assertion. Altered text is underlined below.
With RockOnBrother’s alterations, Tosh wrote:
Darwin’s speculative conjecture of macro-evolution states Common Descent which includes macroevolution.
Darwin’s speculative conjecture of macro-evolution remains unproven.
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