Can God love? (Part 1)
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Can God love? (Part 1)
First topic message reminder :
Can God love?
We are told that the mythical bible God is love or the epitome of love.
Archetypal Jesus said that we would know his people by the love, deeds and actions they showed others.
Jesus gave us examples of the deeds and works. Feed the poor, love all our neighbours, do not sin and many others.
Love then, seems to Jesus, to be something that must be shown by deeds, actions and works to be alive and true love. Love, like faith, without works is dead. Both St. James and Jesus agree on this.
It follows then that if God is not doing something to show this love then the love for man expressed in scriptures is wrong and God cannot love.
You are in the image of God. When you love someone you show them that love by works and deeds. This is how the recipient of that love knows it is there and that allows for reciprocity. You will agree that without reciprocity, true love cannot exist between two individuals. We must do things for each other for true love to exist.
Imagine what those you love would think if you never did anything to express your love. Imagine what you would think of the love of others towards you if they never did anything to show they loved you. See what I mean. Love always must have deeds to be real and true and reciprocity must be at play.
Love then has no choice but to be expressed if it is true love.
We are told that God loved his son so much that he planned to have him sacrificed even before the earth was created. This human sacrifice or any other human sacrifice, voluntary or not, is immoral and the notion that it is good to sacrifice an innocent victim to give the guilty believers a free ride into heaven is a completely self-gratifying notion and is completely immoral. One does not show love for someone by having them sacrificed for the sins of others when God himself stated that we are all responsible for our own salvation and cannot put that responsibility of the shoulders of a scapegoat Jesus.
Does love need deeds and works to be expressed?
Have you seen God express his love for us lately?
Regards
DL
These following speak to this issue if you wish to view them.
[youtube]
Can God love?
We are told that the mythical bible God is love or the epitome of love.
Archetypal Jesus said that we would know his people by the love, deeds and actions they showed others.
Jesus gave us examples of the deeds and works. Feed the poor, love all our neighbours, do not sin and many others.
Love then, seems to Jesus, to be something that must be shown by deeds, actions and works to be alive and true love. Love, like faith, without works is dead. Both St. James and Jesus agree on this.
It follows then that if God is not doing something to show this love then the love for man expressed in scriptures is wrong and God cannot love.
You are in the image of God. When you love someone you show them that love by works and deeds. This is how the recipient of that love knows it is there and that allows for reciprocity. You will agree that without reciprocity, true love cannot exist between two individuals. We must do things for each other for true love to exist.
Imagine what those you love would think if you never did anything to express your love. Imagine what you would think of the love of others towards you if they never did anything to show they loved you. See what I mean. Love always must have deeds to be real and true and reciprocity must be at play.
Love then has no choice but to be expressed if it is true love.
We are told that God loved his son so much that he planned to have him sacrificed even before the earth was created. This human sacrifice or any other human sacrifice, voluntary or not, is immoral and the notion that it is good to sacrifice an innocent victim to give the guilty believers a free ride into heaven is a completely self-gratifying notion and is completely immoral. One does not show love for someone by having them sacrificed for the sins of others when God himself stated that we are all responsible for our own salvation and cannot put that responsibility of the shoulders of a scapegoat Jesus.
Does love need deeds and works to be expressed?
Have you seen God express his love for us lately?
Regards
DL
These following speak to this issue if you wish to view them.
[youtube]
Greatest I am- Posts : 1087
Join date : 2012-04-25
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Tosh wrote:
Texas,
Still waiting.
Scot,
Still waiting for what?
Tosh wrote:
It seems your standards of proof are actually irrational and unscientific.
It seems that “my” standards of proof (I don’t own them) are the standards of proof which are required of micro-evolution (proven), Einstein’s Special Theory of Relativity (proven), Einstein’s General Theory of Relativity (proven), and the Big Bang Theory (proven, although you seem not to believe it).
Tosh wrote:
Darwins Theory of Evolution states Common Descent which includes macroevolution.
I’ve slightly altered your text that I might respond to your assertion. Altered text is underlined below.
With RockOnBrother’s alterations, Tosh wrote:
Darwin’s speculative conjecture of macro-evolution states Common Descent which includes macroevolution.
Darwin’s speculative conjecture of macro-evolution remains unproven.
Guest- Guest
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Texas,
I have already rebutted this misconception, if you are just going to ignore my posts and regurgitate the same fallacies then it becomes apparent you are not interested in truth or serious debate.
Your standard of proof for Common Descent is not the same as the scientific consensus, they consider the standard of proof sufficent for ALL evolution to give it ALL theory status. The theory of Common Descent includes macro-micro evolution, there is no such thing as the Theory of micro-evolution, it is a creationists invention.
Are you suggesting all of the following are pure conjecture because they were not proven in the same manner as gravity ?
Let me repeat you and your creationist friends have no authority to split evolution or the theory, and declare which is proven or not, you do not have the authority to insist Common Descent must be proven in the same emprical manner as Relativity or anything else. Nobody who is an ex-physics student really believes that naive empiricism is the only acceptable proof of a theory, there are parts of any Theory that can be tested or proved using many different methods and types of evidence, if you do not know this then you have forgot your ex-physics lessons.
I’ve slightly altered your text that I might respond to your assertion. Altered text is underlined below.
I don't care, your satisfaction is not what counts, it only has to satisfy the scientific consensus, and they are so satisfied with the evidence they have given Common Descent Evolution, Theory status.
You may believe what you want but please don't try and give your opinions any scientific credence, they are as imaginary as your creationist beliefs. The scientific consensus considers the evidence for evolution so overwhelming they consider the modern synthesis a FACT, and denying this does not alter the fact.
End of Debate, we will have to agree to disagree,and let the jury decide.
It seems that “my” standards of proof (I don’t own them) are the standards of proof which are required of micro-evolution (proven), Einstein’s Special Theory of Relativity (proven), Einstein’s General Theory of Relativity (proven), and the Big Bang Theory (proven, although you seem not to believe it).
I have already rebutted this misconception, if you are just going to ignore my posts and regurgitate the same fallacies then it becomes apparent you are not interested in truth or serious debate.
Your standard of proof for Common Descent is not the same as the scientific consensus, they consider the standard of proof sufficent for ALL evolution to give it ALL theory status. The theory of Common Descent includes macro-micro evolution, there is no such thing as the Theory of micro-evolution, it is a creationists invention.
Are you suggesting all of the following are pure conjecture because they were not proven in the same manner as gravity ?
In fact, the most important discoveries of science have only be inferred via indirect observation. Familiar examples of unobservable scientific discoveries are atoms, electrons, viruses, bacteria, germs, radio-waves, X-rays, ultraviolet light, energy, entropy, enthalpy, solar fusion, genes, protein enzymes, and the DNA double-helix.
Let me repeat you and your creationist friends have no authority to split evolution or the theory, and declare which is proven or not, you do not have the authority to insist Common Descent must be proven in the same emprical manner as Relativity or anything else. Nobody who is an ex-physics student really believes that naive empiricism is the only acceptable proof of a theory, there are parts of any Theory that can be tested or proved using many different methods and types of evidence, if you do not know this then you have forgot your ex-physics lessons.
.Darwin’s speculative conjecture of macro-evolution remains unproven.
I’ve slightly altered your text that I might respond to your assertion. Altered text is underlined below.
.Darwin’s accepted and established Theory of Evolution (including macro-evolution) remains unproven to my satisfaction.
I don't care, your satisfaction is not what counts, it only has to satisfy the scientific consensus, and they are so satisfied with the evidence they have given Common Descent Evolution, Theory status.
You may believe what you want but please don't try and give your opinions any scientific credence, they are as imaginary as your creationist beliefs. The scientific consensus considers the evidence for evolution so overwhelming they consider the modern synthesis a FACT, and denying this does not alter the fact.
End of Debate, we will have to agree to disagree,and let the jury decide.
Last edited by Tosh on Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
Tosh- Posts : 2270
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
An empty hypothesis is not a " null " hypothesis.
A hypothesis that states anything or everything counts as evidence for the hypothesis and nothing counts as evidence against the hypothesis, is EMPTY of any scientific content.
The God hypothesis is empty of any scientific content.
A hypothesis that states anything or everything counts as evidence for the hypothesis and nothing counts as evidence against the hypothesis, is EMPTY of any scientific content.
The God hypothesis is empty of any scientific content.
Tosh- Posts : 2270
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
hypothesis
Definition
1. A supposition or explanation (theory) that is provisionally accepted in order to interpret certain events or phenomena, and to provide guidance for further investigation. A hypothesis may be proven correct or wrong, and must be capable of refutation. If it remains unrefuted by facts, it is said to be verified or corroborated.
2. Statistics: An assumption about certain characteristics of a population. If it specifies values for every parameter of a population, it is called a simple hypothesis; if not, a composite hypothesis. If it attempts to nullify the difference between two sample means (by suggesting that the difference is of no statistical significance), it is called a null hypothesis.
Read more: http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/hypothesis.html#ixzz252uz6NHf
oftenwrong- Sage
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Karl Popper:
A theory which is not refutable by any conceivable event is non-scientific.
Tosh- Posts : 2270
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
I am wondering what Darwin's Theory of Evolution has to do the Can God Love title of this thread???????
I feels like it's starting to mirror the Evidence for the existence of God Thread........
I feels like it's starting to mirror the Evidence for the existence of God Thread........
astradt1- Moderator
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
I am wondering what Darwin's Theory of Evolution has to do the Can God Love title of this thread???????
Love evolved from our social primate genes, this evidence contradicts the existence of a God of love.
Darwin killed God, all of God, the answers to all our questions lie not in theology and metaphysics but in evolutionary psychology and our genes.
Creationists are not delusional because their minds are in love with reality.
Tosh- Posts : 2270
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Tosh wrote:
Texas,I have already rebutted this misconception…It seems that “my” standards of proof (I don’t own them) are the standards of proof which are required of micro-evolution (proven), Einstein’s Special Theory of Relativity (proven), Einstein’s General Theory of Relativity (proven), and the Big Bang Theory (proven, although you seem not to believe it).
You have not rebutted this truth. You have repeatedly attempted to rebut this truth. As truth is non-rebuttable, your repeated attempts to rebut truth have been repeatedly unsuccessful.
For ease of understanding, truth is reposted below.
RockOnBrother wrote:
Re: Can God love?
by RockOnBrother on Thu 30 Aug 2012 - 4:02
It seems that “my” standards of proof (I don’t own them) are the standards of proof which are required of micro-evolution (proven), Einstein’s Special Theory of Relativity (proven), Einstein’s General Theory of Relativity (proven), and the Big Bang Theory (proven, although you seem not to believe it).
As an added item, your evident disbelief of Big Bang is interesting.
Tosh wrote:
… if you are just going to ignore my posts…
I have not ignored your posts
Re: Can God love?
by RockOnBrother on Tue 21 Aug 2012 - 19:44
Re: Can God love?
by RockOnBrother on Fri 24 Aug 2012 - 17:08
Re: Can God love?
by RockOnBrother on Fri 24 Aug 2012 - 23:04
Re: Can God love?
by RockOnBrother on Sat 25 Aug 2012 - 16:51
Re: Can God love?
by RockOnBrother on Sat 25 Aug 2012 - 18:43
Re: Can God love?
by RockOnBrother on Sat 25 Aug 2012 - 20:03
Re: Can God love?
by RockOnBrother on Sat 25 Aug 2012 - 20:07
Re: Can God love?
by RockOnBrother on Sun 26 Aug 2012 - 21:57
Re: Can God love?
by RockOnBrother on Sun 26 Aug 2012 - 22:25
Re: Can God love?
by RockOnBrother on Mon 27 Aug 2012 - 21:57
Re: Can God love?
by RockOnBrother on Wed 29 Aug 2012 - 10:20
Re: Can God love?
by RockOnBrother on Thu 30 Aug 2012 - 4:02
Tosh wrote:
… if you are just going to… regurgitate the same fallacies…
I have “regurgitated nothing.
Tosh wrote:
… it becomes apparent you are not interested in truth…
Truth: The General Theory of Relativity is proven. Truth: The Special Theory of Relativity is proven. Truth: The Big Bang Theory is proven. Truth: The Theory of Micro-evolution is proven.
Truth: The speculative, conjectural supposition of macro-evolution remains unproven.
Tosh wrote:
Your standard of proof for Common Descent is not the same as the scientific consensus, they consider the standard of proof sufficent for ALL evolution to give it ALL theory status.
I don’t own a standard of proof. Perhaps you might research the rigorous proofs required of general relativity, special relativity, big bang, and micro-evolution before each was labeled “Theory” to discover the standard of proof to which I attempt to adhere.
Tosh wrote:
The theory of Common Descent includes macro-micro evolution…
Macro-evolution is a speculative, conjectural ideology.
Tosh wrote:
… there is no such thing as the Theory of micro-evolution
Truth: The Theory of Micro-evolution is proven.
Tosh wrote:
… it is a creationists invention.
Whoever “creationists” might be, they must be humans. Humans do not and cannot invent truth.
Tosh wrote:
Are you suggesting all of the following are pure conjecture because they were not proven in the same manner as gravity ?
I am stating that macro-evolution is speculative conjecture because macro-evolution is unproven.
Tosh wrote:
Let me repeat you and your creationist friends have no authority to split evolution or the theory…
Macro-evolutionists/Darwinists have no authority to invent, alter, contravene, and/or destroy truth. Truth: Macro-evolution is unproven.
… you do not have the authority to insist Common Descent must be proven in the same emprical manner as Relativity or anything else.
[/quote]
Macro-evolutionists/Darwinists do not have the authority to render the unproven proven by fiat. Macro-evolution is unproven.
Tosh wrote:
… naive empiricism…
I was unaware that empiricism is naïve.
Tosh wrote:
… there are parts of any Theory that can be tested or proved…
There is no part of macro-evolution that can be tested or proven.
Tosh wrote:I’ve slightly altered your text that I might respond to your assertion. Altered text is underlined below.Darwin’s speculative conjecture of macro-evolution remains unproven.I don't care…Darwin’s accepted and established Theory of Evolution (including macro-evolution) remains unproven to my satisfaction.
I’ve restored my text.
RockOnBrother wrote:
Darwin’s speculative conjecture of macro-evolution remains unproven.
I care.
Tosh wrote:
… your satisfaction is not what counts…
My satisfaction counts to me.
Tosh wrote:
… it only has to satisfy the scientific consensus, and they are so satisfied…
The mariner consensus aboard the Pinta, Niña, and Santa Maria, mid Atlantic 1492, were so satisfied that flat earth was truth that they almost committed munity.
Tosh wrote:
… they [your opinions] are as imaginary as your creationist beliefs.
I’ve altered your text (alterations underlined below) that I might address your assertion.
With RockOnBrother’s alterations, Tosh wrote:
… they [your opinions] are as imaginary as your knowledge of YHVH Elohim.
My knowledge of YHVH Elohim, as limited by my human (ha adama) understanding of existence as it might be, is absolutely unassailable; this, by your logic, my opinions are equally unassailable. Thank you for the compliment.
Tosh wrote:
The scientific consensus considers the evidence for evolution so overwhelming they consider the modern synthesis a FACT…
The mariner consensus aboard the Pinta, Niña, and Santa Maria considered the evidence for flat earth so overwhelming that they considered the inevitability of falling off the edge of the earth should they have continued a fact.
Last edited by RockOnBrother on Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
Guest- Guest
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Tosh wrote:
Sorry Texas, Too Long Didn't Read.
I posted Thursday 30 Aug 2012 at 22:41; you posted Thursday 30 Aug 2012 at 22:44. Unless one is “responding” to a “sound” bite, it is probably difficult to compose and post a “response” within three minutes.
Sorry, Scot, I don’t post “sound bites.” Usually, I suspect, it takes a bit more than three minutes to read my posts, compose substantive responses thereto, and post such responses on the forum.
Guest- Guest
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
I am unsure as how to fairly assess a mind that inhabits a reality where the global scientific community in the 21 st century, is the equivalent of flat earth believers from our ignorant past. I know the brain likes to make patterns but the objective scientific method did not exist back in them good old religious days, the subjective method of enquiry was Yahweh did it.
What is even more strange, this same mind accepts the authority and uses the conclusions of the global scientific consensus, using the same scientific methods he objects to. This mind accepts without hesitation the very same methods because the results do not contradict its bronze age myth.
What is the most probable, the global scientific consensus in the 21st century is wrong about evolution, or just one of the thousands of creation myths from the bronze age is true.
Do the math has never been so apt.
This kind of thinking can be at best desribed as inconsistent and at worst irrational.
Rationality is about thinking proportionaly, science is all based on probabilities.
What is even more strange, this same mind accepts the authority and uses the conclusions of the global scientific consensus, using the same scientific methods he objects to. This mind accepts without hesitation the very same methods because the results do not contradict its bronze age myth.
What is the most probable, the global scientific consensus in the 21st century is wrong about evolution, or just one of the thousands of creation myths from the bronze age is true.
Do the math has never been so apt.
This kind of thinking can be at best desribed as inconsistent and at worst irrational.
Rationality is about thinking proportionaly, science is all based on probabilities.
Last edited by Tosh on Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:28 pm; edited 2 times in total
Tosh- Posts : 2270
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Fortunately I do not have to prove Common Descent is the truth and " God did it " is false, science has proven it for me.
Unfortunately for some, they cannot prove God did it nor can they prove evolution is false.
This is not rocket science here, you do not have to be Einstein to judge the most likely cause.
Unfortunately for some, they cannot prove God did it nor can they prove evolution is false.
This is not rocket science here, you do not have to be Einstein to judge the most likely cause.
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Scot,
At such time as you substantively address the substantive content of my past several messages (excluding this one and the one immediately preceding), I’ll possibly respond.
Guest- Guest
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
.At such time as you substantively address the substantive content of my past several messages (excluding this one and the one immediately preceding), I’ll possibly respond.
Texas,
There is nothing to respond to that I have not done so on one or more occassions, you may find continually repeating yourself an entertaining past time and you may even be deluded into thinking it is effective, however this fine brain of mine consider otherwise, this fine mind sees only deflection and evasion.
As I said my friend, we must agree to disagree and let our readers decide, I have put forward my case and you yours, no point in boring our audience by repeating the same arguments.
If you have anything novel to say then by all means fire away, if not the debate is over and let the vote counting start,
Your chances are as thin as the evidence that Yahweh created humans from dust and bone.
Tosh- Posts : 2270
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Tosh wrote:
Texas,
There is nothing to respond to that I have not done so on one or more occassions, you may find continually repeating yourself an entertaining past time and you may even be deluded into thinking it is effective, however this fine brain of mine consider otherwise, this fine mind sees only deflection and evasion.
As I said my friend, we must agree to disagree and let our readers decide, I have put forward my case and you yours, no point in boring our audience by repeating the same arguments.
If you have anything novel to say then by all means fire away, if not the debate is over and let the vote counting start,
Your chances are as thin as the evidence that Yahweh created humans from dust and bone.
Nothing which meets response criterion. I am unaware of Yahweh.
Guest- Guest
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Summary of the modern synthesis
The modern synthesis bridged the gap between experimental geneticists and naturalists, and between paleontologists. It states that:
1.All evolutionary phenomena can be explained in a way consistent with known genetic mechanisms and the observational evidence of naturalists.
2.Evolution is gradual: small genetic changes regulated by natural selection accumulate over long periods. Discontinuities amongst species (or other taxa) are explained as originating gradually through geographical separation and extinction (not saltation).[clarification needed]
3.Natural selection is by far the main mechanism of change; even slight advantages are important when continued. The object of selection is the phenotype in its surrounding environment.
4.The role of genetic drift is equivocal. Though strongly supported initially by Dobzhansky, it was downgraded later as results from ecological genetics were obtained.
5.Thinking in terms of populations, rather than individuals, is primary: the genetic diversity existing in natural populations is a key factor in evolution. The strength of natural selection in the wild is greater than previously expected; the effect of ecological factors such as niche occupation and the significance of barriers to gene flow are all important.
6.In palaeontology, the ability to explain historical observations by extrapolation from microevolution to macroevolution is proposed. Historical contingency means explanations at different levels may exist. Gradualism does not mean constant rate of change.
95% of all scientists accept the above as a proven fact.
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Nothing which meets response criterion
You are repeating yourself again Texas, not cool my friend, not cool.
Tosh- Posts : 2270
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Tosh wrote:You are repeating yourself again Texas, not cool my friend, not cool.Nothing which meets response criterion
Au contraire, Scot. Repeating truth is the epitome of cool.
So is re-asking (in different form) an as yet unanswered question about a matter which intrigues me. How and/or why do you apparently exhibit hereon disbelief of Big Bang? I thought that you had affirmed your belief in this proven theory at least two years ago.
Guest- Guest
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Texas,
I believe in the BB theory, you may have misread my post, it is one of the few things we do agree on, however I do not believe Yahweh intentionally created an entire system of entropic disorder only to intervene locally and create order, an intelligent designer would simply have created an ordered universe.
I wonder if the discovery of life on Mars in the distant past will affect creationism ?
Life and the earth is made from star dust, all the elements come from our sun, if this was a predetermined act then why create an earth that is covered mostly in undrinkable water with a climate designed to kill us, humans can live longer without food or water than they can without shelter.
Looking back in hindsight is not evidence of foresight.
I believe in the BB theory, you may have misread my post, it is one of the few things we do agree on, however I do not believe Yahweh intentionally created an entire system of entropic disorder only to intervene locally and create order, an intelligent designer would simply have created an ordered universe.
I wonder if the discovery of life on Mars in the distant past will affect creationism ?
Life and the earth is made from star dust, all the elements come from our sun, if this was a predetermined act then why create an earth that is covered mostly in undrinkable water with a climate designed to kill us, humans can live longer without food or water than they can without shelter.
Looking back in hindsight is not evidence of foresight.
Tosh- Posts : 2270
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Tosh, if you do not believe in a creator then you must have sound grounds for not doing so and have a creditable alternative.
The only alternative possible is that everything came about by pure chance with no intelligence involved.
So could you please give me an example of how the eye was developed by natural selection, stage by stage using as long and as many processes as you like, why there are not thousands of examples of those with four eyes six eyes, some at the back of the head etc; and just how nature decided where the eyes should be etc;
The odds as calculated by the process as accepted in that field calculate the odds of the eye coming about by chance or natural selection are so great as to be accepted as impossible.
Then we have the butterfly whose life span and all that it includes should prove beyond doubt to any sensible person that in no way could it have come about without an intelligence beyond our understanding.
Do not start by giving a load of unsubstantiated athiests views just a simple explanation stage by stage as requested.
I will not hold my breath.
The only alternative possible is that everything came about by pure chance with no intelligence involved.
So could you please give me an example of how the eye was developed by natural selection, stage by stage using as long and as many processes as you like, why there are not thousands of examples of those with four eyes six eyes, some at the back of the head etc; and just how nature decided where the eyes should be etc;
The odds as calculated by the process as accepted in that field calculate the odds of the eye coming about by chance or natural selection are so great as to be accepted as impossible.
Then we have the butterfly whose life span and all that it includes should prove beyond doubt to any sensible person that in no way could it have come about without an intelligence beyond our understanding.
Do not start by giving a load of unsubstantiated athiests views just a simple explanation stage by stage as requested.
I will not hold my breath.
polyglide- Posts : 3118
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
"give me an example of how the eye was developed by natural selection"
If at first you don't succeed ..... bore everyone to death by repeating the same query until they almost lose the will to live.
If at first you don't succeed ..... bore everyone to death by repeating the same query until they almost lose the will to live.
oftenwrong- Sage
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
If you are convinced you are correct then you would have the answer and there would be no need to repeat the quesion.
So answer the quesion or admit defeat.
So answer the quesion or admit defeat.
polyglide- Posts : 3118
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Tosh, if you do not believe in a creator then you must have sound grounds for not doing so and have a creditable alternative.The only alternative possible is that everything came about by pure chance with no intelligence involved.
polyglde, you seem a tad confused, the scientific consensus based on the scentific evidence acquired by objective scientific methods have concluded a credible alternative, the universe is undirected and follows the basic principle of physical cause and effect, the universe is deterministic. The scientific position on God is as follows:
" The alleged entity has no place in any scientific equations, plays no role in any scientific explanations, cannot be used to predict any events, does not describe any thing or force that has yet been detected, and there are no models of the universe in which its presence is either required, productive, or useful."
So could you please give me an example of how the eye was developed by natural selection, stage by stage using as long and as many processes as you like.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_the_eye
Molecular phylogenetic evidence for the independent evolutionary origin of an arthropod compound eye
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC122207/
why there are not thousands of examples of those with four eyes six eyes,
I fail to see how the number of eyes supports your case but spiders have 8 eyes, if the eye was designed by God then why does every living organism not have the same visual system ? Why did God design the human eye with a blind spot eh ? eh ? eh ?
Evolution can explain our blind spot, God cannot.
some at the back of the head etc;
A flatfish that lies on the sea bed has eyes on the top of its head.
and just how nature decided where the eyes should be etc.
Nature does not decide nor do the genes decide, nature selects mutations that are the most advantageous for a given environment, this environmental pressure determines whether mutations survive or not.
The odds as calculated by the process as accepted in that field calculate the odds of the eye coming about by chance or natural selection are so great as to be accepted as impossible.
I refuse to even comment on this childlike gibberish, what are the odds God spoke the universe into existence ? Genetic mutation is random, natural selection is not, the fittest mutations survive and are reproduced.
Then we have the butterfly whose life span and all that it includes should prove beyond doubt to any sensible person that in no way could it have come about without an intelligence beyond our understanding.
What it is it with you and butterflies and what has butterflies got to do with intelligence ? Do you intend to plug God into every gap in our knowledge ?
Do not start by giving a load of unsubstantiated athiests views just a simple explanation stage by stage as requested.
The scientific consensus on eye evolution, butterfly evolution and human evolution has absolutely nothing to do with religious belief, and the modern synthesis is supported by a body of incontrovertible evidence so comprehensive as to render it Theory and Fact.
Are you actually winding me up, nobody can be this ignorant of basic biology.
Tosh- Posts : 2270
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
So answer the quesion or admit defeat..
polyglide, why can I google " eye evolution " for an answer, and you cannot ?
It is baffling me.
Tosh- Posts : 2270
Join date : 2012-08-15
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
polyglide wrote:Shirina, if you believe the world is a peaceful place you will believe anything other than the truth.
There are nations at each others throats but dare not actually do anything about it because of the possible consequences to themselves.
That is not peace and can explode at any time.
There are also many actual wars in progress throughout the world, they may be small but those killed are just as dead as those in a world war.
Just wait and see the consequences of the action Israel will take against Iran.
Wake up and see the facts rather than fiction.
While you ignore the statistical facts.
Like violent crimes and deaths, including from war, are the best they have ever been.
Then again, you already believe in fantasy, miracles and magic so facts mean little to you.
Regards
DL
Greatest I am- Posts : 1087
Join date : 2012-04-25
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Greatest I am wrote:
While you ignore the statistical facts.
You have presented no “statistical facts” for anyone to ignore.
Guest- Guest
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Tosh wrote:
… why can I google " eye evolution " for an answer… ?
It is baffling me.
Complex eyes appear to have1 first evolved within a few million years…
...if2 numerous gradations… if3 further, the eye does vary… if4 any variation or modification in the organ… a perfect and complex eye could be5 formed by natural selection…
He suggested6… Darwin's suggestions7…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_the_eye
- Speculative, conjectural terminology.
- Speculative, conjectural terminology.
- Speculative, conjectural terminology.
- Speculative, conjectural terminology.
- Speculative, conjectural terminology.
- Speculative, conjectural terminology.
- Speculative, conjectural terminology.
Scot,
I googled “eye evolution”; in the first hit, I got speculative conjecture of eye evolution sans proof or evidence. Curiously, I did get accounts of stuff found in dated dirt, convincing evidence, in my opinion, proof beyond a reasonable doubt, of eye appearance, rather suddenly and sans precursor, which provides compelling evidence of an outside force acting upon life in a designing manner. Shall we who accept evidence from dated dirt and allow that evidence to guide and shape our conclusions call this outside, designing force YHVH Elohim, referred to in a “bronze age” letter authored by John (an apostle of Y’shua bar Yosef, Y’shua Moshiach) as agape, love?
“Can Elohim agapao?”, or, with Hebrew (Elohim) and Greek (agapao) translated into English, “Can God love?” Elohim is agapao, God is love.
I suggest that you read for yourself and seek to understand with a far more open mind than you’ve exhibited up to now. Thank you.
Greek Bible:
“Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love. By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent his only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through him. In this is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.”
1 John 4:7-10
Guest- Guest
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Modern scientific texts written following extensive research roc considers as speculative...
A book written following word of mouth recital of information over a couple of thousand years ago, with all the risk of oral mistakes, like Chinese Whispers roc find infallible truth.....
A book written following word of mouth recital of information over a couple of thousand years ago, with all the risk of oral mistakes, like Chinese Whispers roc find infallible truth.....
astradt1- Moderator
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Tosh wrote:
Texas,
I believe in the BB theory…
Scot,
Apparently you do not.
RockOnBrother wrote:
Re: Can God love?
by RockOnBrother on Wed 29 Aug 2012 - 10:20I have slightly altered your text that I might address your concern. Altered text is underlined below.Tosh wrote:
Texas,
It seems you have a problem with any scientific evidence that contradicts the Genesis myth…I have a problem with any scientific evidence that contradicts Big Bang.Tosh wrote:
It seems you have a problem with any scientific evidence that contradicts the Genesis account…
You certainly appear to deny the “who”, the “what”, the “when”, and the “where” of the Bing Bang Theory, as shown below.
RockOnBrother wrote:
Re: Can God love?
by RockOnBrother on Wed 29 Aug 2012 - 10:20Who-What-When-Where-How-Why exposition and comparison of Genesis 1:1 and Big Bang:
1. Genesis 1:1, brief exposition:
English, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Hebrew, “B’r’shythe bara Elohim et hashamayim ve’et ha’arets”.
- Who: Elohim, power, plural of Eloah, power, by inference, incomprehensible, immeasurable power.
- What, bara, created, by inference, created from nothing, et hashamayim ve’et ha’arets, the heavens (everything other than the earth), and the earth (everything other than the heavens), in total, everything, thus, bara… et hashamayim ve’et ha’arets, created everything from nothing.
- When: B’r’shythe, the beginning, at the beginning, at the point of beginning, at the beginning point of everything, when everything begins.
- Where: B’r’shythe, the beginning, at the beginning, at the point of beginning, at the beginning point of everything, where everything begins.
- Why: Not addressed by Genesis 1:1 (addressed by Genesis 1:2 and following).
- How: Not addressed by Genesis 1:1.
2. Big Bang, brief exposition:
Incomprehensible, immeasurable power, at/from “the singularity”, explodes the universe into existence from nothing.
- Who: Incomprehensible, immeasurable power.
- What, exploded everything (the university) into existence from nothing.
- When: “the singularity”, the beginning, at the beginning, at the point of beginning, at the beginning point of everything, (b) when everything begins.
- Where: “the singularity”, the beginning, at the beginning, at the point of beginning, at the beginning point of everything, where everything begins.
- Why: Not addressed by Big Bang.
- How: Addressed by Big Bang data set.
When one denies the “who”, “what”, “when”, and “where” of something, in this care, “the event”, one denies the essential core of that something, in this care, “the event”, and by so doing, one denies that something, in this case, “the event”, and one loses all legitimate claim to believing in that something, in this case, “the event”, i.e., the Big Bang.
Tosh wrote:
… you may have misread my post…
I have misread nothing.
Tosh wrote:
… it is one of the few things we do agree on…
If you are recanting your denial, excellent. I appreciate your honesty in affirming your belief that “B’r’shythe bara Elohim et hashamayim ve’et ha’arets.”
Tosh wrote:
… however I do not believe Yahweh…
I am unaware of “Yahweh.” I am unawre of any mention of “Yahweh” in “B’r’shythe bara Elohim et hashamayim ve’et ha’arets.”
Tosh wrote:
… intentionally created an entire system of entropic disorder only to intervene locally and create order…
I’ve never said “locally”; I’ve never said “temporally. The entirety of existence, the universe, is a closed system in which order prevails.
The 2nd Law of a Thermodynamics, a “law” because its ability to predict that which it predicts is absolute (that’s my physics background combined with my natural disdain for obfuscatory “physics-speak”), is an integral part of that order in its rock-solid reliability, its replicability (perhaps not a word, but it ought to be), and thus adheres to the order of this closed system we call existence.
Our universe turns out to be “chaortic” (a term coined by someone else), often seemingly chaotic when examined at a time and space limited level while orderly when examined over its entire span of space time. This overarching order, without which your existence is impossible, is compelling evidence of design, and compelling evidence of design is compelling evidence of designer.
If you choose to remain in ignorance of this overwhelming evidence, you are free to do so. If you wish to independently examine this evidence, I suggest that DVR these four series, “The Universe”, “How the Universe Works”, “Wonders of the Universe”, and “Wonders of the Solar System”, and view the overarching “chaortic” order for yourself.
Tosh wrote:
… an intelligent designer would simply have created an ordered universe.
An intelligent designer did.
Tosh wrote:
… if this was a predetermined act then why create an earth that is covered mostly in undrinkable water…
Water was not always here. How did it get here? Why is the amount that got here not too much, not too little, but “just right?”
Tosh wrote:
… with a climate designed to kill us…
How did Earth come into a stable orbit around its star, not too close (too hot), not too far (too cold), but “just right?”
Last edited by RockOnBrother on Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
Guest- Guest
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
When one denies the “who”, “what”, “when”, and “where” of something, in this care, “the event”, one denies the essential core of that something, in this care, “the event”, and by so doing, one denies that something, in this case, “the event”, and one loses all legitimate claim to believing in that something, in this case, “the event”, i.e., the Big Bang.
Texas,
Prove I denied it by posting my denial or accept you misread me and apologize for your error.
Tosh- Posts : 2270
Join date : 2012-08-15
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Tosh wrote:Texas,When one denies the “who”, “what”, “when”, and “where” of something, in this care, “the event”, one denies the essential core of that something, in this care, “the event”, and by so doing, one denies that something, in this case, “the event”, and one loses all legitimate claim to believing in that something, in this case, “the event”, i.e., the Big Bang.
Prove I denied it by posting my denial or accept you misread me and apologize for your error.
Compelling evidence, in my opinion, evidence beyond a reasonable doubt, will have to do.
Tosh wrote:
Texas,
It seems you have a problem with any scientific evidence that contradicts the Genesis myth…
Perhaps you did not author the quoted text. If so, I apologize for attributing to you that which you did not author.
To make the leap for you, by calling B’r’shythe bara Elohim et hashamayim ve’et ha’arets “myth”, you call the “who”, “what”, “when”, and “where” of B’r’shythe bara Elohim et hashamayim ve’et ha’arets and Big Bang “myth”, thus providing compelling evidence of your disbelief therein.
Guest- Guest
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
B’r’shythe bara Elohim et hashamayim ve’et ha’arets
In the beginning God created heaven and earth.
Did they miss out mentioning about the loud noise?
In the beginning God created heaven and earth.
Did they miss out mentioning about the loud noise?
astradt1- Moderator
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Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
RockOnBrother wrote:Greatest I am wrote:
While you ignore the statistical facts.
You have presented no “statistical facts” for anyone to ignore.
Ignore this.
http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/steven_pinker_on_the_myth_of_violence.html
Regards
DL
Greatest I am- Posts : 1087
Join date : 2012-04-25
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
It seems you have a problem with any scientific evidence that contradicts the Genesis myth…
You are losing your mind if you interpret this a a denial of the Big Bang, and you are losing your mind if you think the Genesis myth is identical to the big bang. God spoke the universe into exstence, the BB theory forgets to mention this rather important detail.
Try and keep the debate within the realms of rationality, arguing in fantasy land is pointless.
Oh and as for your regurgitating the same unproven conjecture about evolution or order and the 2md law. here is my regurgitated response. You can alter the text with my full permision, it s hilarious.
Doesn’t Evolution break the Second Law of Thermodynamics?No, it doesn’t.
The Second Law of Thermodynamics is one of the most fundamental laws of nature: evolution really would be in big trouble if it broke it. Put not particularly simply, the Second Law of Thermodynamics states that the entropy (the amount of disorganisation) in a closed system tends to increase with time. Put more simply, this means that matter does not tend to organise itself in a particular location unless there is some external energy source powering it. Evolution can be seen as matter organising itself.
Evolution-deniers who cite the Second Law of Thermodynamics as proof against evolution happening on our planet either conveniently forget to mention, or do not realise, that the earth is not a closed system: it has a rather massive external energy source, namely the sun. If we were to consider the entire solar system to be a closed system (which, to all intents and purposes, it is), then the occurrence of evolution on any of the planets would not break the Second Law of Thermodynamics, because, while evolution represents a local decrease in entropy, the burning of fuel within the sun represents a far greater increase in entropy—so, within the closed system as a whole, there is still an overall increase in entropy.
This is not a case of special pleading on behalf of evolution, by the way: the concept of a closed system is fundamental to the Second Law of Thermodynamics.
Tosh- Posts : 2270
Join date : 2012-08-15
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Greatest I am wrote:RockOnBrother wrote:Greatest I am wrote:
While you ignore the statistical facts.
You have presented no “statistical facts” for anyone to ignore.
Ignore this.
http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/steven_pinker_on_the_myth_of_violence.html
Okay.
Guest- Guest
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
For the literal-minded these are the facts. The Sun, every second, burns up tons of its hydrogen fuel, losing forever some of its mass, converted to energy (its entropy increases). A micro-fraction of that mega-wattage is intercepted by living things on the Earth, which store some of it, use it to build up biomass, and use it in all the ways life uses energy. Most of that is lost quickly too, through the inefficiencies of living “machinery.” Some is stored, though, and some is used to build up more complex molecules, molecular systems and life forms (locally, entropy decreases). But that’s very locally, compared to the vast sphere of “wasted” energy radiating away from the sun. And the decrease in entropy is vanishingly small, compared to the huge increase in entropy in the solar system as a whole. And remember, whatever life temporarily “harvests” will eventually be lost also. (People are especially good at that: look at how fast we’re burning our way through the fossil fuels that it took living things epochs to capture from the sun.)
So where is the “violation of the Second Law”? The Law does not say that in every part of a system, at all times, entropy can only increase. If that were the case, no machine, mechanical or living, could ever work, because that’s what a machine does: temporarily and locally, entropy is decreased, at the expense of a larger, permanent increase elsewhere in the system. The Law says that in the system as a whole, in the long run, entropy must increase. And it certainly does in the solar system. We’re sticking our tiny waterwheel into the vast outflow of a reservoir that will never be refilled. We’re warming ourselves by the exhaust pipe of a huge diesel, that is gradually emptying its fuel tank. We are not breaking the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Not now, and not in the formation and evolution of life.
Isn’t all this pretty blatantly obvious? Then how can people keep hauling out this “breaking the Second Law of Thermodynamics” nonsense? My guess is that a lot of them have little or no grasp of these simple physics concepts, and it sounds “real scientific,” and it backs up their prejudices about how things have to be, so why not quote it and try to sound smart? I think a lot of it also comes from the old notion that the Earth is the biggest, most important thing around. Any decrease in entropy here seems huge. In our everyday experience, it looks like we can win, or at least break even.
Tosh- Posts : 2270
Join date : 2012-08-15
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
I am tired of your unsupported conjecture, the scientific concensus including physicists concludes evolution nor life on earth breaks the 2nd law, end of story, end of debate. I think physicists would be at war with biologists if this were indeed the case, oh I forgot, science is nothing but a big anti-God conspiracy lol.
Show me the evidence Texas, your un-scientific opinion is worthess.
Show me the evidence Texas, your un-scientific opinion is worthess.
Tosh- Posts : 2270
Join date : 2012-08-15
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
You are losing your mind…Tosh wrote:It seems you have a problem with any scientific evidence that contradicts the Genesis myth…
[/quote]
I may be losing my body, but my mind remains securely within my possession.
Tosh wrote:
… if you interpret this a a denial of the Big Bang…
I have interpreted nothing; rather, I have noted your assertion that the “who”, “what”, “when”, and “where” of Big Bang is myth, thus affirming your denial thereof.
Tosh wrote:
, and you are losing your mind…
Once again: I may be losing my body, but my mind remains securely within my possession.
Tosh wrote:
… if you think the Genesis myth is identical to the big bang.
I have altered your text (alterations underlined) that I might address your misconception.
With RockOnBrother’s alterations, Tosh wrote:
… if you think the Genesis 1:1 account is identical to the big bang.
Once again:
Who-What-When-Where-How-Why exposition and comparison of:
1. Genesis 1:1, brief exposition:
English, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Hebrew, “B’r’shythe bara Elohim et hashamayim ve’et ha’arets”.
- Who: Elohim, power, plural of Eloah, power, by inference, incomprehensible, immeasurable power.
- What, bara, created, by inference, created from nothing, et hashamayim ve’et ha’arets, the heavens (everything other than the earth), and the earth (everything other than the heavens), in total, everything, thus, bara… et hashamayim ve’et ha’arets, created everything from nothing.
- When: B’r’shythe, the beginning, at the beginning, at the point of beginning, at the beginning point of everything, when everything begins.
- Where: B’r’shythe, the beginning, at the beginning, at the point of beginning, at the beginning point of everything, where everything begins.
- Why: Not addressed by Genesis 1:1 (addressed by Genesis 1:2 and following).
- How: Not addressed by Genesis 1:1.
2. Big Bang, brief exposition:
Incomprehensible, immeasurable power, at/from “the singularity”, explodes the universe into existence from nothing.
- Who: Incomprehensible, immeasurable power.
- What, exploded everything (the university) into existence from nothing.
- When: “the singularity”, the beginning, at the beginning, at the point of beginning, at the beginning point of everything, (b) when everything begins.
- Where: “the singularity”, the beginning, at the beginning, at the point of beginning, at the beginning point of everything, where everything begins.
- Why: Not addressed by Big Bang.
- How: Addressed by Big Bang data set.
In your post, you characterize the aforementioned as “myth” (your word).
Tosh wrote:
Try and keep the debate within the realms of rationality
You’ve pronounced “the debate” over and done.
Tosh wrote:
… arguing in fantasy land is pointless.
I’ll keep that in mind if ever again I visit fantasy land.
Tosh wrote:
Oh and as for your regurgitating the same unproven conjecture about evolution…
Truth: Macro-evolution is unproven; as you and/or our fellow ideologues have yet to prove the unproven, macro-evolution remains unproven.
Guest- Guest
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Tosh wrote:
I am tired of your unsupported conjecture, the scientific concensus including physicists concludes evolution nor life on earth breaks the 2nd law, end of story, end of debate. I think physicists would be at war with biologists if this were indeed the case, oh I forgot, science is nothing but a big anti-God conspiracy lol.
Show me the evidence Texas, your un-scientific opinion is worthess.
Present proof of macro-evolution. As you as yet have not done so, and proof has not been presented elsewhere, macro-evolution remains unproven.
Guest- Guest
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Who: Elohim, power, plural of Eloah, power, by inference, incomprehensible, immeasurable power.
Who: Incomprehensible, immeasurable power.
Please provide me the evidence from the BB theory where the power is described as a " who ", did you really believe my fine mind would miss this schoolboy attempt at deception ?
What, exploded everything (the university) into existence from nothing.
Texas, I think you may find the proven BB theory does not include the above statement, what existed prior to the BB is completely unknown and is a matter of pure speculation. Something from nothing is deduced in Membrane theory, which has not as yet been proven, any ex-pyhsics student would know this. Its quite amazing how many times you can be wrong in one synonym.
I await your apology, it is fairly obvious the BB and Genesis are not synonymous, as I tried to tell you, there is no" who " in the BB theory except in your fantasy world, and the " who " is the key essential to your synonym.
lolol, you are funny with your little bag of evasive tricks.
I see you have jumped back onto the evolution merry go round once again, and once again I am content to leave it to others to judge the outcome of our little discussion.
Last edited by Tosh on Sat Sep 01, 2012 12:54 pm; edited 2 times in total
Tosh- Posts : 2270
Join date : 2012-08-15
Re: Can God love? (Part 1)
Tosh old boy, I think you are monkeying around.
No one can be truly so blind that they cannot see the fact that evolution makes no rational sense whatsoever.
If evolution was proven then there would be no doubt involved and we would not be discussing the matter.
I try to keep things on a basic level of probability, possibility and the possibility of evolution or the big bang being the answer is in the realms of a truly desturbed mind.
[ or one unable to determine fact from fiction ]
There is much we do not understand and we can only make decisions on that which we are aware of.
In my opinion [ I am not interested in anything prior to God creating the earth as it presently is ] and man in particular [ not forgeting that the earth was around for a period we are unaware of long before man was created] God created the present world as we know it by creating all that was needed to sustain a variety of many life forms and when that was done he started creating the life forms each one of which had been catered for to enable it to procreate in it's own likeness.
This I believe.
Now all you have to do is accept that there is a creator.
I do not know and it is of little concern to me who was responsible for what happened on earth prior to the above but it is obvious that it had, had, several uses and God may or may not have played any part.
As I have said all you have to do is accept that there is a creator for everything to be explained.
Those who believe in evolution have to believe in the impossible, some one mentioned my liking of the butterfly, just take a good look at one and explain to me how this incredible creature could have evolved and how it's reproduction methods could have come about without a level of intelligence far beyond our understanding.
Do not forget every scientist at one time thought the world was flat and many scientists wrote theories on this and they were just as wrong as those who believe in evolution.
Keep things within the bounds you understand and can see.
No one can be truly so blind that they cannot see the fact that evolution makes no rational sense whatsoever.
If evolution was proven then there would be no doubt involved and we would not be discussing the matter.
I try to keep things on a basic level of probability, possibility and the possibility of evolution or the big bang being the answer is in the realms of a truly desturbed mind.
[ or one unable to determine fact from fiction ]
There is much we do not understand and we can only make decisions on that which we are aware of.
In my opinion [ I am not interested in anything prior to God creating the earth as it presently is ] and man in particular [ not forgeting that the earth was around for a period we are unaware of long before man was created] God created the present world as we know it by creating all that was needed to sustain a variety of many life forms and when that was done he started creating the life forms each one of which had been catered for to enable it to procreate in it's own likeness.
This I believe.
Now all you have to do is accept that there is a creator.
I do not know and it is of little concern to me who was responsible for what happened on earth prior to the above but it is obvious that it had, had, several uses and God may or may not have played any part.
As I have said all you have to do is accept that there is a creator for everything to be explained.
Those who believe in evolution have to believe in the impossible, some one mentioned my liking of the butterfly, just take a good look at one and explain to me how this incredible creature could have evolved and how it's reproduction methods could have come about without a level of intelligence far beyond our understanding.
Do not forget every scientist at one time thought the world was flat and many scientists wrote theories on this and they were just as wrong as those who believe in evolution.
Keep things within the bounds you understand and can see.
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