Evidence for the existence of God (Part 1)

by keenobserver1 Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:14 pm

First topic message reminder :

If there is a God, he definetly isn't English.

by snowyflake Sat May 19, 2012 3:53 pm

If you doubt something then please give a logical reason why and then we can get somewhere.

Because there is no verifiable proof or even any solid evidence that anything religion proclaims is true. If you've got any please present it otherwise you are on a loser with this argument.

by polyglide Sun May 20, 2012 2:46 pm

I thought we might have a sensible discussion regarding this matter.

But you obviously do not.

If my ideas are Wrong then dispute them as I attempt to do yours I have pointed out what I think regarding the method of calculating odds if we think them wrong then why.

If you do not accept the odds then fair enough but those who do realise the importance of having some method of predicting do.

So lets beg to differ on this one and try another way of attempting to disprove evolution.

Take an acorn in your hand along side an oak tree and think a while and I will ask you one or two quesions at a later time.

regards.

by snowyflake Sun May 20, 2012 2:56 pm

Hey Rock

Just because a brilliant mathematician calculated the odds of an event occurring does not prove that the event cannot occur. There may be trillions of universes out there and Penrose is basing his calculations on this one. Surely, the calculations are thus limited. If there were trillions of universes, the odds would be better for a gambling man. So it is an academic argument at best and certainly doesn't mean that an event won't occur just because of its high unlikelihood.

by snowyflake Sun May 20, 2012 3:00 pm

Perhaps, Penrose's 'purpose of the universe' is that it is 'just there'. Sorta like Mount Everest or Jedward.

by polyglide Mon May 21, 2012 1:46 pm

If I wanted information regarding illnesses I would visit the doctor, the butcher for meat and for the calculating of odds regarding any event I would seek the information from those qualified in that field.

The odds for the devalopement of the eye coming about by chance as with photosynthesis along with the develope,ment of the buterfly have all been calculated as to be beyond that acceptable as possible.

The only other alternative to evolution is creation and therefore the odds that creation is the answer is the same odds for as those against evolution and on thaty I rest my case because there is no answer, to it.

by snowyflake Mon May 21, 2012 6:23 pm

Evidence for the existence of God (Part 1) - Page 6 Eyewiki3

If you want information on evolution why aren't you consulting an evolutionary biologist? Someone like Richard Dawkins for example? He explains evolution.

Your choices are magic or science and you are choosing magic. You might ask yourself if you choose magic in other areas of your life over evidence and facts?

by snowyflake Mon May 21, 2012 6:24 pm

http://www.american-buddha.com/illum.eyewikipedia.htm

Sorry I meant to reference that.

by Shirina Mon May 21, 2012 6:32 pm

I rest my case because there is no answer

LOL! Your premise is faulty. It would be like asking a computer engineer back in the 1950's, "Is there any way to build a computer smaller than an entire room and not have the power requirements of a small town?" Of course, back then, he'd probably say, "Well, not to my knowledge." And then you'd say, "Ah, so because you don't have an answer, it isn't possible ... ever!"

by Guest Mon May 21, 2012 6:42 pm

snowyflake wrote:
Hey Rock

Just because a brilliant mathematician calculated the odds of an event occurring does not prove that the event cannot occur. There may be trillions of universes out there and Penrose is basing his calculations on this one. Surely, the calculations are thus limited. If there were trillions of universes, the odds would be better for a gambling man. So it is an academic argument at best and certainly doesn't mean that an event won't occur just because of its high unlikelihood.

snowyflake wrote:
Perhaps, Penrose's 'purpose of the universe' is that it is 'just there'. Sorta like Mount Everest or Jedward.

Snowy,

The fact that we’re here is proof that a universe within which life can exist can occur. Since (1) our universe does exist (has occurred), and (2) we are here, these are the questions that I ask myself:

What is the probability that our universe, in which life can exist, is here by random chance?
What is the probability that we are here by random chance?

According to Penrose, pretty slim.

I played around with what that number (ten to the tenth power to the one hundred twenty-third power) actually means. Assuming that one universe pops into existence every second, here’s what Excel spit out when I entered these numbers of seconds. Remember that 1078 is the current estimated number of atoms in the universe, a paltry number when compared to Penrose’s 10¹¹⁹ ¹²³ (can’t even write it right on this forum).

Seconds:
1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 (10²⁰)

Years:
31,688,087,814,029

Years/age of universe (13.6 billion years):
2,330
Seconds:
10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 (10³⁰)

Years:
316,880,878,140,290,000,000,000

Years/age of universe (13.6 billion years):
23,300,064,569,139
Seconds:
1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 (10⁶⁰)

Years:
31,688,087,814,028,900,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Years/age of universe (13.6 billion years):
2,330,006,456,913,890,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Look at that last number. If one universe popped into existence each second, at 10⁶⁰ seconds, we’re at 2,330,006,456,913,890 X 10²⁶, or two quadrillion, three hundred thirty trillion, six billion, four hundred fifty six million, nine hundred thirteen thousand, eight hundred ninety time ten to the twenty-sixth power times the age of our universe, universes popping into existence, and we’ve just barely touched the hem of the garment.

Now my head hurts.

by Guest Mon May 21, 2012 7:22 pm

Humans by our modern existence almost prove that macro-evolutionary model is flawed. Some things humans do that provide no perceptible survival (“evolutionary”) advantage:

Create and appreciate visual art.
Create and appreciate music.
Play and watch soccer (“futbol”), rugby, tennis, golf, cricket (fake baseball), football (real football), baseball, and basketball.
Compete in and watch track and field events, except the marathon. Bushmen run down gazelles and put bacon on the table.
Contemplate, discuss, and debate evolution.

On that last one, high end carnivores don’t bother contemplating anything when their bellies are full. They sleep, conserving energy for the next hunt.

by oftenwrong Mon May 21, 2012 7:37 pm

RockOnBrother wrote:
Humans by our modern existence almost prove that macro-evolutionary model is flawed. Some things humans do that provide no perceptible survival (“evolutionary”) advantage:

Create and appreciate visual art.

Create and appreciate music.

Play and watch soccer (“futbol”), rugby, tennis, golf, cricket (fake baseball), football (real football), baseball, and basketball.

Compete in and watch track and field events, except the marathon. Bushmen run down gazelles and put bacon on the table.

Contemplate, discuss, and debate evolution.

On that last one, high end carnivores don’t bother contemplating anything when their bellies are full. They sleep, conserving energy for the next hunt.

It's the same argument as allowing convicted murderers to have TV in their cells. Keeps them from dashing their brains out against the wall.

by Guest Mon May 21, 2012 7:43 pm

oftenwrong wrote:
… allowing convicted murderers to have TV in their cells.

Not in Maricopa County. Sheriff Joe “don’t play that.”

by oftenwrong Mon May 21, 2012 7:50 pm

Pink power!

by Guest Mon May 21, 2012 7:51 pm

“If’n they gets bored”, they can volunteer for the chain gang and get a “two-fer”. Sheriff Joe believes in the 14th Amendment, too. It’s equal opportunity on the chain gang; come one, come all, there is neither male nor female, bond nor free, Greek nor Jew, in Sheriff Joe’s gang.

by oftenwrong Mon May 21, 2012 7:59 pm

That's the reason why criminals become criminals. They don't believe that they will get caught. (If they thought they were exactly the same as everyone else, they wouldn't do the crime would they? Other people are getting caught all the time)

by snowyflake Mon May 21, 2012 8:25 pm

I think you underestimate the evolutionary advantage of particpating in or observing team sports. Anything that promotes social cohesion of a group is advantageous to the group. Why do corporations send their staff on 'team building' courses and exercises and seminars if it is not advantageous to the corporation? Team building increases advantage against adversaries by promoting group cooperation and survival. It's the same with religion. Religion, whatever flavour it is, is the team (or meme). Getting people to join the team promotes the survival of the meme and hence the team.

That's why getting rid of religion and superstition may never happen because fairy tales and santa claus and folklore keep people believing in magic. And people want and need to believe in magic. Reality, facts, science and common sense are just too hardcore for most people.

by oftenwrong Mon May 21, 2012 10:34 pm

Sometimes referred to as tribalism.

by Shirina Tue May 22, 2012 12:05 am

Sheriff Joe believes in the 14th Amendment, too.

Sheriff Joe is an idiot.

After all, he's one of those fringe "Birther" morons. Thanks to this man's stupidity, the whole "Birther" nonsense has resurfaced in Arizona to the point where - once AGAIN - Arizona's secretary of state is badgering Hawaii to provide yet ANOTHER copy of Obama's birth certificate or ... get this ... Arizona won't put Obama's name on the ballot.

Way to go, Sheriff Joe, for stirring up fringy conspiracy theories tailor made for the Tin Foil Hat Club currently dominating the Republican party.

LINK

by Guest Tue May 22, 2012 2:07 am

snowyflake wrote:
I think you underestimate the evolutionary advantage of participating in or observing team sports. Anything that promotes social cohesion of a group is advantageous to the group.

Snowy,

Point taken. From what I see on TV, the fans (“fanatics”) of Man U and whatever their archrival is (I’ve forgotten; is it Arsenal?) bond tighter than crazy glue.

A question that mirrors my next question: “If swimming is good for your figure, explain whales to me.”

Explain Usain Bolt to me.

by Guest Tue May 22, 2012 2:16 am

But Sheriff Joe believes in and practices equal opportunity. He even has an all female chain gang.

Sheriff Joe also believes in education. When he was first elected, he provided TV to inmates. They could choose between C-Span and old Newt Gingrich speeches.

And he’s stingy with the taxpayer’s money. Check out the menu at Hotel Maricopa County.

by oftenwrong Tue May 22, 2012 11:14 am

Many of us would like to have an all-female chain gang.
Anybody have data on feeding-and-accommodation costs? I could clear out the garden shed for starters.

EDIT: errr, scub that! There seems to be disunity among the family. Embarassed

by polyglide Tue May 22, 2012 1:49 pm

I do not have to look at any theory regarding the eye, anyone can come up with a series of events to attempt to substanciate anything, the point is the odds that this could in actual fact happen and as stated the odds say no this could not happen in the case of the eye.

by Shirina Tue May 22, 2012 2:37 pm

I do not have to look at any theory regarding the eye, anyone can come up with a series of events to attempt to substanciate anything

Then what's the point, polyglide? Seriously ... what's the point?

Now you know why I didn't bother trying to debate this issue with you.

I could have sat here and wasted hours of my time posting and linking things for you about the eye and you would have simply waved your hand dismissively and wrote a sentence or two with one of your proclamations. "It was created because religious dogma says it was created, and no amount of scientific proof to the contrary will change my mind."

Yeah, well, people who put their faith in religious dogma said the same thing about the sun orbiting around the earth, too, and look how wrong they turned out to be.

As I have already said: You don't debate, you dismiss.

That makes for a frustrating ... and BORING ... discussion.

by polyglide Fri May 25, 2012 11:45 am

It may be boring but factual and that is the problem with all your responses they are not.

I have indeed looked at the eye theory and by the same process over 200,000 events incurring numerous small changes, change a mouse into an elephant taking about 0ne million years or more, the trouible is how would the thing involved have survived all the changes whilst in the process.

You do not only have the eye to consider there is metamorphosis, photosynthesis, [allowing the oxygen in the air to be replenished] not to mention hearing and all the methods of communication through song and speach etc ; etc;

Each one of the above have odds far beyond those accepted as being possible to have evolved through evolution.

Were there just one example would dismiss evolution as a possibility never mind a probability. so in my opinion it does not take a supreme optimist but a person so deluded by the Devil to even consider evolution and should be looking elsewhere ffor the answer.

by Shirina Fri May 25, 2012 11:57 am

Two people, an atheist and a Christian are sitting in a chair reading a book. Suddenly, the lights go out and both are plunged into darkness.

The atheist gets up and investigates the reason. Perhaps the bulb burned out, perhaps a fuse blew, perhaps the power went out. Sooner or later, he figures out the problem, fixes it, and resumes reading in the light.

The Christian simply believes it's God's will that he sit in the dark, so sit he does and waits for God to turn the lights back on. He sits in the dark for a very long time.

So go ahead and sit in the dark, polyglide, and comb the Bronze Age for your answers.

by Guest Fri May 25, 2012 5:52 pm

Shirina wrote:
Two people, an atheist and a Christian are sitting in a chair reading a book. Suddenly, the lights go out and both are plunged into darkness.

The atheist gets up and investigates the reason. Perhaps the bulb burned out, perhaps a fuse blew, perhaps the power went out. Sooner or later, he figures out the problem, fixes it, and resumes reading in the light.

The Christian simply believes it's God's will that he sit in the dark, so sit he does and waits for God to turn the lights back on. He sits in the dark for a very long time.

A Conservative Jew, a Reform Jew, a Catholic, a Methodist, an Anglican, a Missionary Baptist, a Southern Baptist, an AME, a Presbyterian, a Lutheran, a Shia Muslim, a Sunni Muslin, and a Baha’i are sitting in a room reading books. The lights blink off.

A Conservative Jew, a Reform Jew, a Catholic, a Methodist, an Anglican, a Missionary Baptist, a Southern Baptist, an AME, a Presbyterian, a Lutheran, a Shia Muslim, a Sunni Muslin, and a Baha’i whip out their cell phones and call the power company.

by Shirina Fri May 25, 2012 6:19 pm

A Conservative Jew, a Reform Jew, a Catholic, a Methodist, an Anglican, a Missionary Baptist, a Southern Baptist, an AME, a Presbyterian, a Lutheran, a Shia Muslim, a Sunni Muslin, and a Baha’i whip out their cell phones and call the power company.

Let's hope most would, Rock ... but I fear some Christians "don't need to do any research." That brand of Christianity is gaining more traction here in the US.

by Guest Fri May 25, 2012 8:13 pm

Various persons hide their identities behind labels.

One example are the heirs of the Dixiecrats (“Dixie rats”), the ol’ boys and gals who jumped ship after the 1968 DNC, who hide their racism behind the curtain of conservatism. One of them ran for President a few years ago, hiding not only behind conservatism but Christianity as well.

Folks in 2012 would do well to begin identifying Christians by using the criteria used in the 1st Century by non-Christian residents of Antioch. In the 1990’s some young folks around here “took to wearing” bracelets with the acronym “WWJD”, “What Would Jesus Do?”

Jesus was a Hebrew Bible scholar, so much so that he frustrated those looking for an excuse to condemn him. They finally concocted a “ruse” to flimflam Pontius the Pirate into hanging Jesus from a cross. Many who profess Christianity today fail to follow Jesus’ example, taking little if any time to study either the Hebrew Bible or the Greek Bible for themselves. And just to be clear, memorizing and reciting verses is not studying.

That deficit applies to preachers. On Dennis Prager’s original syndicated radio show, Religion on the Line, the host would weekly invite a rabbi (conservative or reform), a Catholic priest, and a Protestant pastor to discuss religious matters. One evening, a Catholic priest and a Baptist preacher got into it about a Greek Bible (“New testament”) teaching. The priest viewed the passage one way, which in effect was unintentionally detrimental to Jews; the preacher viewed the passage another way, which in effect “lifted up” Jews.

The rabbi interrupted the discussion and corrected the Baptist preacher, quoting the passage in Greek and presenting a brief exposition thereof, complete with denotative and connotative word meanings derived from accurate analysis of the original Greek words. In other words, the rabbi knew the preacher’s stuff better than the preacher did.

A Christian follows Jesus’ teachings. Jesus charged the apostles to “teach them all things whatsoever I have commended you.” Paul, an apostle of Jesus, taught, “Study to show yourself approved.”

by polyglide Sat May 26, 2012 11:20 am

The problem with those who cannot accept the truth and blame everything on someone else, just do not understand the facts, if you go to a doctor and he tells you to take certain precautions and offers advice on medication etc; then the probability is that you will be cured and your health will be protected.

If you totally ignore the advice and abuse the medication there will no doubt be consequences to the contrary.

God gave advice on how we should live our lives to obtain the best results and look what the idiots have made of things through abusing everything and dealing in evolution which is a total nonsense when considered in a proper manner.

by tlttf Wed May 30, 2012 9:10 am

So everybody's in agreement then, there is/isn't proof of any omni-whatever. Don't you think it's more amazing that out universe unfolded and gave the possibility of life on a ball of rock over millions of years, rather than some old duffer creating it all in 6 days?

by polyglide Wed May 30, 2012 10:30 am

Time as we know it is purely man made and has no revelance whatsoever to God's menmtion of time.

A day is as a thousand years etc;

We have no perception of time in real terms and as with many other matters it are beyond our present understanding.

by oftenwrong Wed May 30, 2012 11:16 am

".... no perception of time ...."

Yes, we'd gathered that, polly.

by Shirina Wed May 30, 2012 2:50 pm

God gave advice on how we should live our lives to obtain the best results and look what the idiots have made of things through abusing everything and dealing in evolution which is a total nonsense when considered in a proper manner.

You said in another thread that you want people to consider possibilities with an open mind.

Yet you've already made up your mind that God created the universe and left his pearls of wisdom with a bunch of desert nomads in the Gaza Strip. And not just any God, not just a Creator, but the God of the Bible. You repeatedly refer to religion as "fact" and "truth" and ridicule anyone who does not march in lockstep with your reasoning.

So I have to ask: Why do you expect an open mind from others when yours is locked up tighter than a drum?

by polyglide Wed May 30, 2012 5:15 pm

I could be rude but I won't

I am as you say steadfast in my belief and that is because no one can come up with anything to compare with the evidence I feel is there for my belief.

If you think you can then do.

I have posed several pertinant quesions to you and you are unable to answer them.

by oftenwrong Wed May 30, 2012 5:31 pm

A still tongue makes a wise head.

1869 W. C. Hazlitt English Proverbs 35

by polyglide Thu May 31, 2012 2:50 pm

If you use your head the tongue becomes wise

by polyglide Thu May 31, 2012 3:11 pm

Yep, and some people have no perception of anything that makes sense.

by polyglide Thu May 31, 2012 3:13 pm

Like the dove Ivan, just wish that people could understand it's relevance.
Peace.

by Shirina Thu May 31, 2012 3:21 pm

Polyglide, you can stop with your sanctimoniousness any time now (which means you'll stop NOW).

You can underestimate my intelligence all you wish to, but if you think I'm fooled by the "some people" phrase you keep using, then you're going off the rails.

We don't allow insults against other posters here. That includes veiled insults. You've been warned.

by polyglide Thu May 31, 2012 3:30 pm

Then why are you allowing others to make similar remarks to me, you are not moderating in an equal manner, the responses I have made are in a directs response to those made against me and I will appeal to other moderators to make sure that things are done in equal terms.

I do not want to exchange insults or anything other than opinions on the matters I feel important but if you actaully look at most of the posts made by some all they do is attempt to mock with no imput whatsoever.

You said previously about person attacks and the very next thing I was persopnally attacked and you did nothing, WHY?

by astra Thu May 31, 2012 6:50 pm

I have NEVER on these boards seen you "Exchange Opinions"! All you have ever done is take peoples input and trashed it in your own self righteous arrogant way, without even thinking about answering any points put.

No one on here sees you as the great Christian Sage with all the answers. No one on here has put themselves foreard as that either.

I feel you are a board 19 year old theology student looking for ideas before hitting the world running. (You'll trip up)

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