Evidence for the existence of God (Part 1)

by keenobserver1 Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:14 pm

First topic message reminder :

If there is a God, he definetly isn't English.

by Tosh Sat Sep 22, 2012 12:55 pm

In that case, Tosh must be a Christian. The problem is he just refuses to admit it.

Anything that involves loving myslf more than anyone else....count me in, as long as it doesn't involve zombies, eating flesh and drinking blood.

I am Christian, I am not a Christian.

by Tosh Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:08 pm

How does one love one’s neighbor as oneself? If I do not love myself, and I love my neighbor as myself, then I do not love my neighbor. If I love myself just a wee bit, and I love my neighbor as myself, then I love my neighbor just a wee bit. If I love myself off the chart, and I love my neighbor as myself, then I love my neighbor off the chart. Following Jesus’ teaching, I ought to love myself big time, as big a time as I can manage, so that I can love my neighbor at that same level. Notice that Jesus does not teach that one shall love one’s neighbor greater than oneself. The two loves, self-love and neighbor-love, are inextricably linked. Neither individualism nor socialism offers this profoundly life-changing solution to this age-old problem.

.

He was simply preaching compassion for ones fellow man.

The type of compassion that does not execute retards and object to universal health care, you are no more Christian than I.

Anyway, back to reality, Jesus just like the hippies gave no consideration for the future, in his warped mind there was no future, the end of the world was nigh.

If Jesus returned talking the same tripe today, he would be crucified by the media and thought to be stoned.

by **Ivan** Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:51 pm

Thatcher removed the disease of entitlement that had blighted this country for decades

Tosh. Not quite sure what Thatcher is doing on a religious thread. The only pronouncement on the subject I ever remember hearing from her was that “what mattered about the Good Samaritan wasn’t that he was good, it was that he had money”.

So you think Thatcher “removed the disease of entitlement”, do you? Was that the entitlement to a council house if you couldn’t afford to buy, she certainly removed that! If you think that entitlement has disappeared, you need look no further than today’s ‘Daily Mail’ and Amanda Platell’s comments about Andrew Mitchell:-
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2206911/Tory-posh-boys-think-theyre-born-rule.html

Mitchell, Cameron, Osborne and all the other posh boys think they’re entitled to run the country, that they were born to rule. Charles Windsor thinks that he’s entitled to be extravagant with our money and run up enormous expenses because that’s his idea of how royalty should behave. Far from the disease of entitlement having been removed, it’s been resurgent in recent years, but I guess that’s not what you were talking about when you repeated that trite Tory propaganda.

by Tosh Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:03 pm

Ivan,

This country was polluted by people who genuinely believed it was the states responsibility to provide them a good quality of life and a high standard of living. In laymens terms too many takers and not enough givers or in economic terms, too many spenders and not enough earners.

Thatcher did not create dog eat dog, she brought back individual responsibility, and just in time.

Ivan, globalisation and the free market was an environmental change, one that all humans had to adapt to or perish, most adapted and I have some compassion for those who could not evolve.

by Tosh Sat Sep 22, 2012 5:17 pm

Religious people claim science does not answer the " whys " such as " why are we here ? ", and as an atheist I do not believe this is a valid question.

To believe this is a valid question one has already made the assumption that there is an external answer or antecedent purpose, as against the reasoned purposes created by our rational minds.

The plain fact is we are here, and our purpose is to make life meaningful, stop relying on a creator to provide purpose in your life, create your own.

Vote atheism.....vote now.

by **astradt1** Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:04 pm

Thatcher did not create dog eat dog, she brought back individual responsibility, and just in time.

Strange that Thatcher should be mentioned in a thread about the 'Evidence for the existence of God'.........And certainly if the quote above is used.....

I perhaps could have understood it if she was being used as proof that God does not exist....But not in the context it has been used......

by Shirina Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:21 pm

This country was polluted by people who genuinely believed it was the states responsibility to provide them a good quality of life and a high standard of living. In laymens terms too many takers and not enough givers or in economic terms, too many spenders and not enough earners.

Well, Tosh, you could always move to America where even the disabled are kept in abject poverty because Americans feel they don't deserve anything more than food, roof, and substandard medical care. I'm not sure how it works in Britain, but in the US, the amount you receive in disability payments is directly proportional to how much money you've paid into the system via taxes. Therefore, don't you DARE become disabled at young age, before you've had a chance to pay into the system. Oops! I guess it's too late for me. Given that I became disabled at age 27 with only a bunch of summer jobs and low-paying work under my belt, the best I can hope for is $400 per month. That won't even pay the rent on a rat-infested shoe box in this country.

I was told by one of the doctors I had to see for disability determination that being young and educated would work against me in receiving any money at all. As if somehow being young makes you immune to disablement -- yeah, I thought that, too, when I was 26. As for being educated, well, I could possess every doctorate on the planet, those diplomas don't mean a damn when you hurt all the time.

So yeah, come to America, Tosh, where even the disabled are made to feel like lazy moochers who should feel guilty for having to rely on the government to stave off homelessness and hunger.

by Tosh Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:28 pm

Shirina,

There are too many people in Britain who have not visited your homeland, my country is a paradise for life's unfortunates compared to yours, unfortunately human nature being as it is, some people abuse our altruistic culture or become dependant on it.

Universal Health Care in Britain is not even a debate, the debate surrounds its efficiency and cost.

by oftenwrong Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:11 pm

Maybe this guy really is as unique as he would like to believe. There can't be many surviving Fascists in Scotland.

by Tosh Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:15 pm

Maybe this guy really is as unique as he would like to believe. There can't be many surviving Fascists in Scotland..

Good post, keep it up.

by snowyflake Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:29 pm

Enough foreplay, OW and Tosh Smile

Time for you two to pick out curtains....

:affraid:

by oftenwrong Sat Sep 22, 2012 10:45 pm

Always helpful to have input from an expert. Thanx.

by Tosh Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:11 am

Snowy my dear,

It seems our resident sage oftenwrong is often wrong, and he does not like atheists or agnostics.

by Tosh Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:56 am

Our consciousness is physical, and it adapts traits from our biolgical instructions to assist in our survval, in reality it is just an extension of our DNA survival code.

The most common psychological trait is permanent survival or death denial, our mind accomadates the concept that it will survive and never die. It does this to ease psychological fear and anxiety, if you think immortality is important now then imagine how important it was some 100,000 yeas ago to post-cognisant hunter-gatherers.
There daily lives was a survival struggle of disease, predators, death and injury, self awareness is a poisoned chalice, great to feel alive but not so great to realise one dies.

Fear and anxiety of death are not survival tools when one is literally surrounded by death risks including feeding oneself.

Our minds fed off our survival instincts and solved the problem by diluting the fear of death, notice how it did not remove the fear, this would cause an even greater survival threat.

RELIGION IS SIMPLY AN EVOLVED ADAPTATON OF DEATH DENIAL, YOU ARE IMMORTAL HEROES IN GOD'S EPIC, JUST LIKE ALL MYTHOLOGICAL TALES.

by snowyflake Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:52 am

OW loves us really Smile

He has just allowed his Eeyoresque existence to cloud his judgement. He just needs a hug and a cup of tea and he would see that atheists and agnostics are not as evil as he thinks they are.

Tosh, my mom honestly believes that if people don't believe in God they will go on shooting rampages, raping and pillaging and rioting in the streets. From what I can see, it seems to be those that do believe in God that are doing this. But somehow this point eludes her. There is something of the football supporter that is inherent in believers, don't you think? This staunchness of belief, in spite of contradictory evidence, that they believe will someday get them into heaven. Makes no sense to me. My mother in law, who is a devout Roman Catholic, is deathly afraid that I am going to pull the plug on her if she is dying (which I would never do against someone's wishes!) because she believes that even if she was brain dead that God might work a small miracle for her. I do not bother to dissuade either of them of their beliefs. It is so ingrained and they are more afraid of what might happen to them for 'not believing'. It really is death denial and believing they will go on forever. When I ask what would be the point, neither of them have a reasonable answer.

by Tosh Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:04 pm

OW loves us really He has just allowed his Eeyoresque existence to cloud his judgement. He just needs a hug and a cup of tea and he would see that atheists and agnostics are not as evil as he thinks they are.

oftenwrong is safe today, I never insult people on a Sunday out of religious deference, is he/she a believer and what does " Eeyoresque " mean ?

I have heard atheists being accused of arrogance but never a poor fence sitting agnostic, truly bizarre.

by Tosh Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:09 pm

Snowy,

My wife is an atheist but her whole giant family are staunch Catholics, I have never met a family so emotionally unprepared for death and grief.

I am not sure what form of comfort religion is supposed to be providing but it fails miserably.

by **Ivan** Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:49 pm

It really is death denial and believing they will go on for ever

snowyflake. Richard Dawkins has pointed out that we do go on for ever if we have children - our genes go on and on. However, I've also heard it said that if your parents don't have any children, there's a very strong chance that you won't.....
Shocked

by snowyflake Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:58 pm

I'm not sure if OW is a he or a she or both but I have made the assumption that he is a he based on previous dealings with him. And I'm not sure if he is agnostic or a believer. What he is is quite opinionated and judgemental but I don't remember him being as such on the old cutting edge. Only since he's been here and only recently since I was not here much before. So not sure what's happened between then and now to turn him into an old sourpuss. Smile

Eeyoresque = to be like Eeyore, negative, sad, depressed, having a toast-always-falls-butter-side-down outlook on life.

Did you know that cats always land on their feet and toast always lands butter side down? So if you strapped a piece of buttered toast to a cat's back and threw it out the window, theoretically the cat should hover in mid air. Smile

Don't try this at home please.

I love science. Smile

by snowyflake Sun Sep 23, 2012 1:00 pm

Hi Ivan

Thanks for that bit of info Smile

Yes, I see my genes in my granddaughter who is the spit of me and my mother. Looks nothing like her dad who is my son. Funny how that works eh?

by Tosh Sun Sep 23, 2012 2:07 pm

What he is is quite opinionated and judgemental but I don't remember him being as such on the old cutting edge. Only since he's been here and only recently since I was not here much before. So not sure what's happened between then and now to turn him into an old sourpuss.

I arrived here recently.....oh dear. Very Happy

by Tosh Sun Sep 23, 2012 3:57 pm

There never was any evidence of unseen agents, unseen agents were explanations for natural phenomena and modern science provides us with natural explanations based on evidence.

Primitive humans respected and feared powerful things, and there is nothing moe poweful than nature, it is very difficult for us today to imagine what concepts a mind empty of knowledge would construct. The ignorant mind used nature and copied it to form supernatural concepts, spirits and the spirit world were models of us and our world.

Sophisticated theology is no different to dancing for rain, it is all based on a false premise and all cultures are built on a pack of lies.

Who cares if it is supposed to provide comfort, has truth no value in a rational mind ?

by **Ivan** Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:37 am

Universal Health Care in Britain is not even a debate

Yes it is. The controversial legislation which was finally passed in March this year means that some treatments will no longer be available on the NHS in some areas.

by oftenwrong Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:10 am

"There is only one thing in the world that is worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about."
Oscar Wilde

http://www.age-of-the-sage.org/quotations/poetry/oscar_wilde.html

by polyglide Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:00 am

There are more unsolved events and beings beyond our understanding than there are that we can come up with some kind of explanation for although some such explanations are groundless when verification is requested.

Many things are evident because all the facts are available to substantiate that which is involved, whilst the majority of our thinking is still based on conjecture and imagination gone wild.

The evidence of God, or those that do not believe in God, or a creator, is mainly in the vast difference between humans and any other living creature, [if we can be called creatures] we are able to do things and evaluate things that are beyond any other living thing and yet we are the most vulnerable in terms of considering our life from birth.

This can only have come about, as many other things, through an intelligence far beyond our understanding.

Just take the brain, I know some have never learned how to use it, nor develope the most significant and desirable quality of common sense, just how do the evolutionists explain that we still only use a very small part of the brains capacity?.

God gave us the means to learn and build on that learning far beyond that which we have presently reached, by providing us with a brain whose capacity the extent of which we do not know and I feel we have not the time to find out but of one thiong I am certain, the brain did not come about by chance and no sensible person would consider it to be so.

by Tosh Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:49 pm

Yes it is. The controversial legislation which was finally passed in March this year means that some treatments will no longer be available on the NHS in some areas..

It is only controversial if you insist every single treatment available to medical science must be performed on your doorstep.

I do not.

by Tosh Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:55 pm

Just take the brain, I know some have never learned how to use it, nor develope the most significant and desirable quality of common sense,

* Said the creationist to the scientist *

lolol, you are genuinely funny.

just how do the evolutionists explain that we still only use a very small part of the brains capacity?.

If you are referring to the old urban myth we only use 10% of our brain, then you have been misled, we use all of our brain but not at the same time, it seems there are limits to our brain capacity.

by Tosh Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:57 pm

There is only one thing in the world that is worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about."

The penny finally drops. cheers

by Shirina Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:25 pm

The evidence of God, or those that do not believe in God, or a creator, is mainly in the vast difference between humans and any other living creature

Human beings eat, shit, sleep, compete for mates, are preoccupied with sex, mark their territory, make bestial sounds, and engage in a large range of other animal-like activities. We are far more similar to the animal than we are different. We have language, but so do many animals. Ours is simply more complex. We use technology, but so do many animals. Ours is merely more sophisticated. About the only thing that clearly separates humans from animals is the ability to think in the abstract.

by Shirina Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:28 pm

just how do the evolutionists explain that we still only use a very small part of the brains capacity?.

The 10% of brain myth is the widely perpetuated urban legend that most or all humans only make use of 20%, 10% or some other small percentage of their brains. It has been misattributed to people including Albert Einstein.[1] By association, it is suggested that a person may harness this unused potential and increase intelligence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_percent_of_brain_myth

by Tosh Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:59 pm

Human beings eat, shit, sleep, compete for mates, are preoccupied with sex, mark their territory, make bestial sounds, and engage in a large range of other animal-like activities. We are far more similar to the animal than we are different. We have language, but so do many animals. Ours is simply more complex. We use technology, but so do many animals. Ours is merely more sophisticated. About the only thing that clearly separates humans from animals is the ability to think in the abstract.

All animals have 3 basic instructions or genetic needs, sex, food and nurture, they are pleasure systems where we receive a chemical reward.
Social mammals have an adaptive trait( want) known as " status ", we seek status to increase the chances of sex, food, nurture and their adaptations.
Freud referred to these as the " id ", our primordial urges are at the centre of human behaviour.

We are monkeys with big brains.

by oftenwrong Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:23 pm

" we seek status to increase the chances of sex, food, nurture and their adaptations."

What, ALL of us? Surely not. There's only one contributor to this Forum who is constantly crying for our attention.

by Tosh Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:50 pm

It is impossible to understand or explain human behaviour without evolution, psychology is in effect evolutionary psychology. Subsequently it is impossible for social scientists and politicians to plan social well being without understanding evolution and its psychological adaptations.

Everything we think or feel has a genetic origin, and is a product of natural selection, psychology consists of adaptations of genetic determinism, physical cause and effect.

The human species evolved from animal genes that feared the worst, it was a survival advantage to be cautious, suspicious and assume threats, it is safer to assume a stick is a snake rather than the reverse.
Humans are by nature neurotic, full awareness exagerated this genetic instruction and led to numerous psychological adaptations to cope with this fear.

The lives of primitive humans were governed by superstition( suspicion), a simple coping mechanism which evolved into religion. Then we have the voluminous ways we artificially suppress our neurosis, most take mind-altering drugs of some kind to cope, including the opiate of the people.

Here is the real bad news, most of our cultures are built around suppressing fear, we see different cultures as a survival threat and a threat to our psychological well being, multi-culturism is a vain attempt to dilute this fear.
The good news is fear( survival threats) was the drving force behind intelligence, it is why we are problem solvers, once we became aware of our fears and survival threats, we found solutions, some solutions are good and some not so good.

We are not just monkeys with big brains, we are neurotic monkeys with heightened awareness.

by oftenwrong Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:53 pm

You're not just reading out of the House of Commons Library, are you? The bit about neurotic monkeys sounds familiar.

by Tosh Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:59 pm

What, ALL of us? Surely not. There's only one contributor to this Forum who is constantly crying for our attention.

Status comes in all forms 'umble sage, I am willing to bet your status is more important to you than mine is to me, my status on here as an attention whore is self deprecating, and yet it seems to threaten your rather fragile status.

Or are you normally this neurotic ?

by Tosh Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:03 pm

You're not just reading out of the House of Commons Library, are you? The bit about neurotic monkeys sounds familiar..

No, although I do appreciate your attempt at levity, unlike some I feel no need to plagiarise the words of others.

by **Phil Hornby** Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:07 pm

by Tosh Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:13 pm

We are all animals Phil the blogger, the secret is not to think and act like one.

Anyway, what do you blog about ?

by snowyflake Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:40 pm

What, ALL of us? Surely not. There's only one contributor to this Forum who is constantly crying for our attention.

Yeah could you knock it off now, OW? Let someone else have a go please? What a Face

by **Ivan** Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:59 pm

Tosh. I don’t know how the NHS got onto this thread, though I’ve heard it said that some doctors think they have power over life and death, just like that imaginary God……
Evil or Very Mad

I believe you live in Scotland under the protective custody of Alex Salmond; if so, your health service is not affected by the legislation passed in March. In England, some treatments will no longer be available to those who live in certain areas, since decisions about what is or is not available on the NHS will be made by commissioning groups of GPs. There will be a postcode lottery: people will not be able to go to other parts of the country if treatment is denied them locally, they’ll have to pay if they want it. So, as far as England is concerned, universal health care is no longer an automatic right.

One of the Forumotion terms of service that you agreed to when you joined this forum is:-
“Please post your messages only once. Repetitions are unpleasant and useless.”
https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t18-posting-rules
Perhaps you could bear that in mind before posting any more tiresome repetitions of your ‘sage’ quip. You don’t want to be classified as a bore, do you?

If you bothered to take a look at the rest of the forum occasionally, you might notice that we have a section for bloggers, where you can see Phil Hornby’s excellent satire, saving you the need to ask unnecessary questions.

by Tosh Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:32 pm

One of the Forumotion terms of service that you agreed to when you joined this forum is:-
“Please post your messages only once. Repetitions are unpleasant and useless.”
https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t18-posting-rules

Ivan, you have made me burst out laughing, can you please show this to RoB, I wish I had . Very Happy

Perhaps you could bear that in mind before posting any more tiresome repetitions of your ‘sage’ quip. You don’t want to be classified as a bore, do you?

I will ease up on oftenwrong, he is a sensitive soul, I can feel it.

[quote]

If you bothered to take a look at the rest of the forum occasionally, you might notice that we have a section for bloggers, where you can see Phil Hornby’s excellent satire, saving you the need to ask unnecessary questions.

[/quot

Sufferin Succotash, I am being stalked by a sensitive sage and a saintly satirist, sorry...only kidding.

I will pop in and give him my thoughts.

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