Evidence for the existence of God (Part 1)

by keenobserver1 Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:14 pm

First topic message reminder :

If there is a God, he definetly isn't English.

by bobby Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:37 pm

In terms of eternity that number does not even exist. Neither does any number.

Well it should keep him busy for a while then shouldnt it.

by Guest Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:29 pm

trevorw2539 wrote:
Note 2: 10⁶⁹ = 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

In terms of eternity that number does not even exist. Neither does any number.

In terms of the Milky Way Galaxy, the estimated number of stars in the Milky Way Galaxy, and the estimated number of atoms in the Milky Way Galaxy, “that number” does exist, as:

The number of Milky Ways, one, 10⁰ (1), is finite;
The estimated number of stars in the Milky Way, one hundred billion, 10¹¹ (100,000,000,000), is finite;
The estimated number of atoms in the Milky Way, a number without a name, 10⁶⁹, 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, is finite.

When one enumerates the finite, one uses finite numbers.

by polyglide Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:37 am

The manner in which I approach the existance of God as to any other possible explanation regarding not only the earth and mankind but the universe, is based on that which is evident and not theory.

There is more we cannot see than we can see and far, far more we do not understand than we do understand.

So we can only base our conclusions on that which is evident and explainable, or alternatively the probable explanation for that which is not.

As far as I am concerned evolution is nonsense in respect of being the originatorof life.

Things do evolve but only from that which has been created.

I do not intend going into detail again why evolution is a none starter, there is ample evidence to prove it is an impossible explanation for more events than could be reasonably accepted as the cause.

Time is man made. Regarding the universe, it is impossible to calculate when where or how in terms of time the sequence of events resulting in the present circumstances.

There could be numerous other creations within the universe such as the earth with life in many different forms, we do not know and at this time maybe not intended to know.

What we do know for certain is we are making a right pigs ear of the earth.

by oftenwrong Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:25 pm

Years ago I read a silly story about scientific researchers who built the most powerful microscope the world had ever seen, which they found gave them the ability to see even mono-nucleic entities. At its maximum extension the researchers found that they could spy on a form of Life too small to measure.

The creature was looking through a microscope.

by **astradt1** Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:03 pm

Did god create angels?

by trevorw2539 Sat Aug 25, 2012 7:44 pm

RockOnBrother wrote:
trevorw2539 wrote:
Note 2: 10⁶⁹ = 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

In terms of eternity that number does not even exist. Neither does any number.

In terms of the Milky Way Galaxy, the estimated number of stars in the Milky Way Galaxy, and the estimated number of atoms in the Milky Way Galaxy, “that number” does exist, as:

The number of Milky Ways, one, 10⁰ (1), is finite;

The estimated number of stars in the Milky Way, one hundred thousand, 10¹¹ (100,000,000,000), is finite;

The estimated number of atoms in the Milky Way, a number without a name, 10⁶⁹, 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, is finite.

When one enumerates the finite, one uses finite numbers.

Really? If eternity is forever then no number exist. Imagine that you could live through 'time' until the universe stops expanding and contracts, and starts again and again and again ad infinitum. No number has any meaning. And if you believe in eternal life then the same applies.

by Guest Sat Aug 25, 2012 8:45 pm

trevorw2539 wrote:
RockOnBrother wrote:
In terms of the Milky Way Galaxy, the estimated number of stars in the Milky Way Galaxy, and the estimated number of atoms in the Milky Way Galaxy, “that number” does exist, as:

The number of Milky Ways, one, 10⁰ (1), is finite;

The estimated number of stars in the Milky Way, one hundred billion, 10¹¹ (100,000,000,000), is finite;

The estimated number of atoms in the Milky Way, a number without a name, 10⁶⁹, 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, is finite.

When one enumerates the finite, one uses finite numbers.
Really? If eternity is forever then no number exist.

Neither the number of Milky Ways (one, 10⁰, 1), nor the estimated number of stars in the Milky Way (one hundred billion, 10¹¹, 100,000,000,000), nor the estimated number of atoms in the Milky Way (a number without a name, 10⁶⁹, 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000), is an infinite number. All are finite numbers; thus, none reflect, project, or are in any way related to eternity.

trevorw2539 wrote:
Imagine that you could live through 'time' until the universe stops expanding and contracts, and starts again and again and again ad infinitum. No number has any meaning. And if you believe in eternal life then the same applies.

Eternity exists without, not within, existence. “B’r’shythe bara Elohim…”; wherein b’r’shythe denotes the point in space/time where/when everything that us, was, and every will be is powered into being from absolutely nothing. “Prior to” b’r’shythe, there is YHVH Elohim, pre-existing existence in eternity.

Do you understand this? I don’t, but I do understand that I don’t understand, and that’s one difference between created and Creator.

by trevorw2539 Sat Aug 25, 2012 10:06 pm

Good. So the numbers mean nothing as I said.

by Guest Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:25 pm

trevorw2539 wrote:
Good. So the numbers mean nothing as I said.

Au contraire. The numbers mean what I have said they mean, three specific “somethings”, (1) the number of Milky Ways (one, 10⁰, 1), (2) the estimated number of stars in the Milky Way (one hundred billion, 10¹¹, 100,000,000,000), and (3) the estimated number of atoms in the Milky Way (a number without a name, 10⁶⁹, 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000).

by Tosh Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:59 am

Texas,

The chances of a universe such as ours existing are proportionate to the number of universes, there could be an infinite number of universes or an infinite number of attempts at a universe.

by Tosh Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:42 am

As far as I am concerned evolution is nonsense in respect of being the originatorof life.

Evolution has nothing whatsoever to do with the origin of life.

Things do evolve but only from that which has been created.

Things do not have to be created, you are applying a human model of design to nature.

I do not intend going into detail again why evolution is a none starter, there is ample evidence to prove it is an impossible explanation for more events than could be reasonably accepted as the cause.

You cannot go into detail because there is not one shred of evidence that contadicts evolution, if there is ample evidence it is impossible then over 95% of all scientists cannot find it.

If you think a reasonable explanation is a creator spoke the universe into existence then you better tell me the reasons why ?

If it is something to do with a collection of oral traditions from the Bronze Age then good luck.

by Tosh Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:14 am

Hypotheses, due to their inherent limitations, cannot be used to examine the entity whereby hypotheses came to be.

Texas,

I haven't a clue what this is intended to mean, even by your standards of deflection this one is a real beauty. You are suggesting we can not examine the hypothesis to examine the hypothesis ?

What else do you suggest we examine, the hypothesis claims all evidence proves it and no evidence can disprove it ?

The God hypothesis is an empty assertion that is untestable, it is empty of any scientific content, there is no evidence for the existence of God.

To understand why "God does not exist" can be a legitimate scientific statement, it's important to understand what the statement means in the context of science. When a scientist says "God does not exist," they mean something similar to when they say "aether does not exist," "psychic powers do not exist," or "life does not exist on the moon." All such statements are casual short-hand for a more elaborate and technical statement: "this alleged entity has no place in any scientific equations, plays no role in any scientific explanations, cannot be used to predict any events, does not describe any thing or force that has yet been detected, and there are no models of the universe in which its presence is either required, productive, or useful."

by Tosh Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:28 am

Do you understand this? I don’t, but I do understand that I don’t understand, and that’s one difference between created and Creator.

.

Texas,

Claiming God is unknowable every time you get backed into a corner is a logical fallacy, how you do you know God is unknowable ?

by Tosh Sun Aug 26, 2012 3:29 pm

Regarding this statement, “it is a rational deduction based on the proportion of evidence and reason”, as an ex-physics student,

As an ex-Physics student and someone who recites empricism with every breath, can you explain to me why you deem yourself qualified to reject the scientific consensus on macro-evolution ?

If the 2nd law does indeed prove macro evolution false then can you explain why science concludes from the evidence it is both theory and fact ?

While you are at it, can you explain to me why mainstream religion, be it Jewish, Christian or Muslim accept Theistic Evolution as a fact if evolution is so obviously false ? Evolution is not a belief simply held by atheists, it is held by all except a tiny minority of creationists in one country, America.

Next you will be stating Genesis is literally true and the bible is inerrent. :affraid:

I am more interested in why you believe the God Yahweh exists and not why you believe macro-evolution is false, care to let me in on your secret ?

by Tosh Sun Aug 26, 2012 6:06 pm

I am struggling to find an inoffensive word that best describes young earth creationists, if you take away the religious minded who else believes the universe and the earth are only 6 or 8 or 10,000 years old ?

What is wrong with these people ? Is it brainwashing or delusion or lack of intelligence or what ?

The rest of the developed world has diluted Christianity almost down to a set of values, few care whether Jesus performed miracles or was resurrected or was divine or not. Yet, nearly half of Americans believe the bible is literally true and inerrent, is there something in their culture that explains this weird phenmena ?

Whatever the reason it doesn't seem to have any affect on their morality or behaviour, its not like America is some paradise of love and peace.

The other strange thing is this religiousity is most apparent in a selection of states known as the bible belt, and its bigger than most imagine. What do these states have in common apart from religious mania ?

Poverty and isolated rural communities may be the cause, these people are in most need of a comforting relationship with God and other believers. Perhaps life in these areas has less meaning and significance than others, they seek their self esteem( status) from being attached to an invisible Alpha male, its a form of tribalism.

What I don't understand is does nobody read any other book in the bible belt, evolution is hardly a secret, to put this into some kind of context, I have travelled the world and never met anyone who literally believes the bible is true or the word of God.

It actually fascinates me.

by Tosh Sun Aug 26, 2012 6:12 pm

When I read Mel or polyglide talking about Satan and the devil, I think they are winding me up, I just cannot take primitive superstitions seriously.

I feel like I have been transported back in time to the 18th century, it never occurred to me that people who could operate a computer could believe in Satan.

by Shirina Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:46 pm

What is wrong with these people ? Is it brainwashing or delusion or lack of intelligence or what ?

Young Earth Creationists are doing what all True Believers have done before them -- ignore science in favor of faith. They want to believe in the Adam and Eve story, so by God, they are going to believe it!

Ironically, some children show the same willful defiance when parents reveal there is no Santa. Perhaps if they believe hard enough, are extra-specially good this year, and leave out the greatest cookies ever made on Christmas Eve, Santa will come no matter what mom and dad say. Yet facts are facts, and one cannot "will" Santa into existence with fanatical belief.

Nor can one "will" away science with fanatical religious belief. How life began, what caused the Big Bang, is there really a God -- all of these remain open-ended questions, the kind of questions that allows religion to thrive. But there are some things that we *do* know, and one of those things is that the earth is *not* just old enough for Adam and Eve to be the first human beings. Jesus did not ride pterodactyls over the lush jungles of Egypt, and there was never a real Garden of Eden.

After all, the Bible lays out roughly where Eden was supposed to be ... the confluence of three rivers, two of which are the Tigris and Euphrates. If the story of Adam and Eve were true, don't you think someone would have found the angel God assigned to stand guard over Eden by *now*?

But those who want to believe will continue to believe in a young earth. All humanity can do is patiently wait for this belief to fade a little more with each passing generation until none left alive would promote it.

by True Blue Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:44 pm

History teaches that when one faith falls, another takes it place.

by Tosh Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:59 pm

History teaches that when one faith falls, another takes it place.

May I suggest you view the history of the 2nd half of the 20th century onwards, faith is being replaced by reason and humanism.

The developed world( except America) will be atheistic by the end of the 21 st century, religious values will become cultural-humanistic-universal values, the supernatural age has lasted some 70,000 years and it will be replaced by the age of reason.

by Tosh Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:06 pm

http://www.gallup.com/poll/155003/hold-creationist-view-human-origins.aspx

There is something wrong with the American education system when 46% still believe in Creationism, I actually do not believe this figure. I read somewhere that statistics for under 35's have shown a substantial decrease in belief in creationism.

The internet will be the death of creationism.

by Tosh Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:14 pm

What is more offensive, an atheist calling the religious irrational and unreasonable, or the religious calling atheists immoral and malevolent ( Hellbound) ?

by polyglide Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:58 pm

If you study the present state of the world many young and old do not believe in anything other than self satisfaction and many do not care how they acheive it.

There is no rational explanation for evolution, if that was so, there would be no need to consider anything else.

Take just one example of thousands, how did blood evolve?

Along with why has everyone got different DNA not to mention the sequence of the life of a butterfly.

The fact is that intelligence far above our own must have been involved and I prefer the Christian explanation.

by Shirina Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:00 pm

The developed world( except America) will be atheistic by the end of the 21 st century

America will get there sooner or later as well ... just not as quickly as the rest of the world. Atheists are becoming increasingly vocal, and if you add up atheists and agnostics together, we are a larger minority than any other group ... and getting larger. There is an Atheist fightback going on in this country; the Northeast, the West Coast, and the majority of cities in all parts of the country are becoming increasingly non-religious.

by Tosh Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:17 pm

There is no rational explanation for evolution, if that was so, there would be no need to consider anything else.

97.5 % of the worlds population do not need to consider anything else, if you believe evolution is irrational then you do not understand evolution.

Take just one example of thousands, how did blood evolve?

Blood is made from stem cells( bone marrow), genetic mutation and natural selection/genetic drift does the rest.

Along with why has everyone got different DNA not to mention the sequence of the life of a butterfly.

We do not reproduce identical copies, chromosomes from both parents plus mutation.

What about butterflies ?

The fact is that intelligence far above our own must have been involved and I prefer the Christian explanation.

Your preference is not a fact, evolution proves an intelligent designer was not required, and evolution is a scientific fact supported by evidence that any intelligence would accept.

by Tosh Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:23 pm

polyglide,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7w57_P9DZJ4

by oftenwrong Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:41 pm

Honestly didn't have you down as a Smoker, Tosh.

by Tosh Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:50 pm

Honestly didn't have you down as a Smoker, Tosh..

...........its cannabis. Very Happy

by oftenwrong Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:57 pm

Who wants a high IQ anyway? Pass the dutchie to the left-hand side.

by Tosh Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:01 pm

Who wants a high IQ anyway? Pass the dutchie to the left-hand side..

I didn't indulge until I was 22-23, my brain was fully developed with an enormous IQ by then. Very Happy

by polyglide Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:46 am

There is no firm evidence whatsoever for evolution it is all conjecture and supposition.

Where in fact creation is easily explainable, the only thing necessary is the acceptance of a creator which fills the bill far more than any ridiculous idea that life came from a little pool.

We have no idea what the earth's past is, it may go far beyond what we think and maybe have been used for any manner of other life or activities of course there are a number of indicators as to some forms of life but there has been events that we are not able to explain.

Ther could have been forms of life beyond our understanding for all we know.

What were the circumstances at the time oil was formed or coal etc.,

What we should concentrate on is from the time man was created and that is approximately 12,000 years, all before that time is of no real relevance to the future of mankind.

by boatlady Wed Aug 29, 2012 12:00 pm

who cares about all this - surely we are all children of 'god', whatever we mean by that and the important thing is to remember is it's a small world, if we don't treat each other right we'll all suffer in some way, and if we don't show respect for the natural world, our environment will gradually become toxic.
Personally, I don't care how many angels can dance on the head of a pin

by Tosh Wed Aug 29, 2012 1:26 pm

There is no firm evidence whatsoever for evolution it is all conjecture and supposition.

polyglide, you suffer from the same delusion as Texas, you are not qualified to decide if the evidence for Common Descent is conjecture or supposition, you are not an accredited scientist. The scientific consensus in the WORLD considers the modern snythesis of Common Descent as a FACT, they conclude this on an extensive body of evidence from biology, genetics, geology,anatomy and biochemistry..

Why are all these scientific bodies wrong and you, Texas and an old collection of myths from the Bronze Age right ?

Why does every major religious body accept evolution, why do they do not consider the evidence conjecture and supposition ?

I have posted this link to Texas which he conveniently wishes to ignore, I suggest you read it and educate yourself on the evidence and the methodology of Common Descent.

A delusion is defined as a denial of incontrovertible evidence, creationism is a delusion of the highest order, and it is fuelled by unqualified supporters of creationism in America.

Common Descent is not proving God does not exist, Common descent is the theory that all known living, terrestrial organisms are genealogically related. All existing species originated gradually by biological, reproductive processes on a geological timescale. Modern organisms are the genetic descendants of one ancient, original species (broadly defined as a communal population of organisms exchanging genetic material).

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

by Tosh Wed Aug 29, 2012 1:35 pm

What we should concentrate on is from the time man was created and that is approximately 12,000 years,

This is bordering on certifiable, how do you know humans were created 12,000 years ago and why do we have literally thousands of human fossils dating back over 100,000 years.

What is wrong with you for goodness sake, what age did you leave school ?

by Tosh Wed Aug 29, 2012 1:44 pm

who cares about all this -

Anyone interested in truth and reason.

surely we are all children of 'god',

Nope, we are all products of natural selection, I am an atheist and an anti-theist, religion has been the single biggest obstacle to human progress.

whatever we mean by that and the important thing is to remember is it's a small world, if we don't treat each other right we'll all suffer in some way, and if we don't show respect for the natural world, our environment will gradually become toxic.

The important thing to remember is all cultures have been and still are heavily inluenced by religion, the world is a mess because of religion and any progress that has been made since the enlightenment has been in spite of religion.

Personally, I don't care how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

There are people on this forum with their arms free who believe Satan actually exists, this worries me, they should be tagged. Rolling Eyes

by KnarkyBadger Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:23 pm

Tosh wrote:
What we should concentrate on is from the time man was created and that is approximately 12,000 years,

This is bordering on certifiable, how do you know humans were created 12,000 years ago and why do we have literally thousands of human fossils dating back over 100,000 years.

What is wrong with you for goodness sake, what age did you leave school ?

Speaking as an archaeologist (uni graduated) I've worked on sites dating back far further than 12,000yrs BCE.

by Shirina Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:28 pm

What we should concentrate on is from the time man was created and that is approximately 12,000 years, all before that time is of no real relevance to the future of mankind.

If the story of Adam and Eve is true, then why hasn't anyone found Eden? And where is the angel that God placed at the gates to keep fallen humans out of Eden? The Bible specifically states that an angel is guarding Eden, so where is he?

by boatlady Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:21 pm

see where you're coming from Tosh - I thought they were maybe speaking figuratively.
You're right though - the political uses of organised religion are certainly responsible for a great deal of unnecessary suffering.
I do sort of worry about all this literal interpretation of scripture, from whatever side it's aimed, because I still think it makes us lose sight of the basics - a bit like all these coversations I hear about politics - you know the ones - 'it was Labour got us into this mess in the first place' - 'no it was Maggie' - personally, I'd rather we just found a way to agree how to live together and not get in messes - maybe it doesn't matter a jot whether there is such a thing as a god, but in my view it REALLY matters that as a human race we find a way to live together - which is what I mean by 'all children of god' - all the same family, all living together in quite a small space.

by Tosh Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:34 pm

Speaking as an archaeologist (uni graduated) I've worked on sites dating back far further than 12,000yrs BCE. .

Please stay away from my friend Texas ( Rock on Brother) on here, he holds some rather disparaging views concerning the accuracy, methodology and conclusions drawn by geologists, archeologists and anthropologists. His empirical concerns regarding carbon dating just happen to coincide with his creationist beliefs, as far as evidence goes its Yahweh or the high way.

Lovely man but eccentric, with a fossilized " E ". Smile

by Tosh Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:52 pm

I do sort of worry about all this literal interpretation of scripture, from whatever side it's aimed, because I still think it makes us lose sight of the basics

Its losing sight of reality and rationality, this makes basic problem solving just a tad tricky, seemingly the solution to all the worlds problems is to get on our knees and pray to Yahweh to protect us from Satan.
The last few thousand years of perpetual conflict has demonstrated religion to be an impotent vehicle of morality and reason, history is a nightmare from which I am trying to awake.

by blueturando Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:03 am

Where in fact creation is easily explainable, the only thing necessary is the acceptance of a creator which fills the bill far more than any ridiculous idea that life came from a little pool.

Polyglide....easily explainable to people who do not wish to use their brains to find out the truth....a simpletons view of life if you like

What we should concentrate on is from the time man was created and that is approximately 12,000 years, all before that time is of no real relevance to the future of mankind.

Why do you think you are more important than the 100s of thousands of other species living on this planet? Many who were here long before humans by the way

And if we are the only species that matters, then why did god make a majority of the planet up as oceans, when we are air breathers

by oftenwrong Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:23 am

What are the thoughts of a committed atheist upon being told he has Cancer but that our Prayers are with him and for him?

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