Evidence for the existence of God (Part 1)

First topic message reminder :

If there is a God, he definetly isn't English.

What are the thoughts of a committed atheist upon being told he has Cancer but that our Prayers are with him and for him?

OW.....Prayers are another way of saying our best wishes are with you. It will make no difference to the outcome, but it's nice that people are thinking of you and lending their support.

When your time is up there's nothing you or anyone else can do about it

What are the thoughts of a committed atheist upon being told he has Cancer but that our Prayers are with him and for him?.

My immediate thought would be why you are praying to the sadist who designed cancer and gave it to me, are you hoping he has second thoughts ?

My mischievous thoughts wonder what the atheist reaction would be to a remission accompanied by suggestions that Prayer seemed to have been effective.

My mischievous thoughts wonder what the atheist reaction would be to a remission accompanied by suggestions that Prayer seemed to have been effective..

If you dance every day for rain then one day it may rain, I would not advise any religious person to come near me in a hospital.

"I would not advise any religious person to come near me in a hospital."

But Cameron/Lansley/Clegg might be welcome, Tosh? What's that lump under the bedclothes?

But Cameron/Lansley/Clegg might be welcome, Tosh?

Are they atheists ?

What's that lump under the bedclothes?

You praying on your knees.

I do not think we are more important than any other living thing, God does and he explains the reason for all other living things if you care to seek instead of making unsubstantiated statements.

There are more scientists that do not believe in evolution than those that do, just put the quesion on your computer and you will be given the appropriate references, so scientists are just as much confused as you appear to be and it only needs one scientist to disagree to make all the other opinions quesionable.

There are none so blind as those who do not want to see.

Just because many people are mislead it does not mean the minority are wrong

Iam pleased I make you laugh Tosh, I just pray I can make you understand.

There are more scientists that do not believe in evolution than those that do,

This is a blatant fabrication. I believe this against one of the big ten, polyglide.

just put the quesion on your computer and you will be given the appropriate references, so scientists are just as much confused as you appear to be and it only needs one scientist to disagree to make all the other opinions quesionable.

I did and you are bearing false witness. About 5% of scientists believe in creation and they are mental. Properly educated scientists are not confused one bit about evolution.

There are none so blind as those who do not want to see.

Truer words have never been spoken. Take the blinkers off, polyglide.

Just because many people are mislead it does not mean the minority are wrong

Just because billions of people are deluded into believing there are invisible beings controlling our existence doesn't mean it's true either especially when there is no evidence for it. On the other hand, there is loads of evidence for evolution that one can see, feel, test.

Praying for something is the same thing as doing nothing.

There are more scientists that do not believe in evolution than those that do,

Prove it.

it only needs one scientist to disagree to make all the other opinions quesionable.

Utter drivel woman, it only takes one piece of evidence to disprove evolution, and there is not one.

The professor of a university challenged his students with this question. "Did God create everything that exists?" A student answered bravely, "Yes, he did".

The professor then asked, "If God created everything, then he created evil. Since evil exists (as noticed by our own actions), so God is evil. The student couldn't respond to that statement causing the professor to conclude that he had "proved" that "belief in God" was a fairy tale, and therefore worthless.

Another student raised his hand and asked the professor, "May I pose a question? " "Of course" answered the professor.

The young student stood up and asked : "Professor does Cold exists?"

The professor answered, "What kind of question is that? ...Of course the cold exists... haven't you ever been cold?"

The young student answered, "In fact sir, Cold does not exist. According to the laws of Physics, what we consider cold, in fact is the absence of heat. Anything is able to be studied as long as it transmits energy (heat). Absolute Zero is the total absence of heat, but cold does not exist. What we have done is create a term to describe how we feel if we don't have body heat or we are not hot."

"And, does Dark exist?", he continued. The professor answered "Of course". This time the student responded, "Again you're wrong, Sir. Darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in fact simply the absence of light. Light can be studied, darkness can not. Darkness cannot be broken down. A simple ray of light tears the darkness and illuminates the surface where the light beam finishes. Dark is a term that we humans have created to describe what happens when there's lack of light."

Finally, the student asked the professor, "Sir, does evil exist?" The professor replied, "Of course it exists, as I mentioned at the beginning, we see violations, crimes and violence anywhere in the world, and those things are evil."

The student responded, "Sir, Evil does not exist. Just as in the previous cases, Evil is a term which man has created to describe the result of the absence of God's presence in the hearts of man."

After this, the professor bowed down his head, and didn't answer back.

The young man's name was ALBERT EINSTEIN.

Einstein :

1. Albert Einstein: God is a Product of Human Weakness
The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.



2. Albert Einstein & Spinoza's God: Harmony in the Universe
I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings.

- Albert Einstein, responding to Rabbi Herbert Goldstein's question "Do you believe in God?" quoted in: Has Science Found God?, by Victor J Stenger

3. Albert Einstein: It is a Lie that I Believe in a Personal God
It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.

- Albert Einstein, letter to an atheist (1954), quoted in Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas & Banesh Hoffman
4. Albert Einstein: Human Fantasy Created Gods
During the youthful period of mankind's spiritual evolution, human fantasy created gods in man's own image who, by the operations of their will were supposed to determine, or at any rate influence, the phenomenal world.

- Albert Einstein, quoted in: 2000 Years of Disbelief, James Haught
Read Full Quote
5. Albert Einstein: Idea of a Personal God is Childlike
I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being.

- Albert Einstein to Guy H. Raner Jr., Sept. 28, 1949, quoted by Michael R. Gilmore in Skeptic magazine, Vol. 5, No. 2
6. Albert Einstein: Idea of a Personal God Cannot be Taken Seriously
It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere.... Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.

- Albert Einstein, "Religion and Science," New York Times Magazine, November 9, 1930
7. Albert Einstein: Desire for Guidance & Love Creates Belief in Gods
The desire for guidance, love, and support prompts men to form the social or moral conception of God. This is the God of Providence, who protects, disposes, rewards, and punishes; the God who, according to the limits of the believer's outlook, loves and cherishes the life of the tribe or of the human race, or even or life itself; the comforter in sorrow and unsatisfied longing; he who preserves the souls of the dead. This is the social or moral conception of God.

- Albert Einstein, New York Times Magazine, November 9, 1930
8. Albert Einstein: Morality Concerns Humanity, Not Gods
I cannot conceive of a personal God who would directly influence the actions of individuals, or would directly sit in judgment on creatures of his own creation. I cannot do this in spite of the fact that mechanistic causality has, to a certain extent, been placed in doubt by modern science. My religiosity consists in a humble admiration of the infinitely superior spirit that reveals itself in the little that we, with our weak and transitory understanding, can comprehend of reality. Morality is of the highest importance -- but for us, not for God.

- Albert Einstein, from Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas & Banesh Hoffman.

9. Albert Einstein: Scientists Can Hardly Believe in Prayers to Supernatural Beings
Scientific research is based on the idea that everything that takes place is determined by laws of nature, and therefore this holds for the action of people. For this reason, a research scientist will hardly be inclined to believe that events could be influenced by a prayer, i.e. by a wish addressed to a Supernatural Being.

- Albert Einstein, 1936, responding to a child who wrote and asked if scientists pray; quoted in: Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas & Banesh Hoffmann

10. Albert Einstein: Few Rise Above Anthropomorphic Gods
Common to all these types is the anthropomorphic character of their conception of God. In general, only individuals of exceptional endowments, and exceptionally high-minded communities, rise to any considerable extent above this level. But there is a third stage of religious experience which belongs to all of them, even though it is rarely found in a pure form: I shall call it cosmic religious feeling. It is very difficult to elucidate this feeling to anyone who is entirely without it, especially as there is no anthropomorphic conception of God corresponding to it.

- Albert Einstein, New York Times Magazine, November 9, 1930
11. Albert Einstein: Concept of a Personal God is the Main Source of Conflict
Nobody, certainly, will deny that the idea of the existence of an omnipotent, just, and omnibeneficent personal God is able to accord man solace, help, and guidance; also, by virtue of its simplicity it is accessible to the most undeveloped mind. But, on the other hand, there are decisive weaknesses attached to this idea in itself, which have been painfully felt since the beginning of history. ...

- Albert Einstein, Science and Religion (1941)

12. Albert Einstein: Divine Will Cannot Cause Natural Events
The more a man is imbued with the ordered regularity of all events the firmer becomes his conviction that there is no room left by the side of this ordered regularity for causes of a different nature. For him neither the rule of human nor the rule of divine will exist as an independent cause of natural events. ...

- Albert Einstein, Science and Religion (1941)

http://www.snopes.com/religion/einstein.asp

http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/religion/a/einstein_god.htm

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/e/einstein-god.htm

Sorry Mel but your story about the young Einstein and His Professor is purely that a Story....with no more foundation in truth than the god created earth story......

Astra,

Newton...Theist.

Einstein....Agnostic.

Hawking....Atheist.

Do you see the belief pattern evolving as more science is discovered ?

Sorry astradt1 and Tosh.

Gods absense from us does not mean he does not exist. The story in my post confirms this with examples of the non existance of "cold, light, etc".

Quick on the draw Tosh. Do you sit at the keyboard all day and night waiting to pounce?

Gods absense from us does not mean he does not exist. The story in my post confirms this with examples of the non existance of "cold, light, etc".

Mel,

Put down the glass of Blue Nun, its a tad early.

Gods absense from us does not mean he does not exist. The story in my post confirms this with examples of the non existance of "cold, light, etc".

Hi Mel. In the same vein, just because billions of people are deluded doesn't make the story a fact. Passing things off as fact when they are not is a no-no in your Book of Passing Things Off as Fact That Are Not, I believe.

Here's another FACT. When I log-off from this site, every other correspondent ceases to exist.

But don't worry, folks. I'll re-create you next time I log on.

Well, perhaps not ALL of you. But Have a nice day anyway!

I would like all believers to imagine what it was like for humans to evolve from pre-cognisance to post-cognisance, this evolution took place some 100,000 years ago. Humans became self aware ( I am that I am), they became aware of their existence and their mortality in a world filled with death and survival threats.

Their minds were a new emergent property that were shaped and guided by their genetic survival and reproduction instincts faced with a new awareness of their dangerous environment.. The best analogy is a child's brain development ( theory of mind), around about 4 a child achieves the equivalent awareness levels, and its most common thought is " why " (cause and effect).

Early post cognisant humans had no answers to a world filled with " whys ", and they copied( we are copying machines that make patterns) their answers from models in their own social enviroment. They were aware that everything they did and everything that was done to them by others was an intended action, good and bad intentionality was then applied to all actions in nature. The observing mind inside them was unseen, and they attached unseen minds to all physical objects that acted upon them, the birth of animism and the intentional unseen agent called the spirit.

The most primitive form of religion was spiritualism, the spirits of the forest, rivers, animals, mountains, skies and of course the human spirit, the latter modelled from our dreams and our hallucinations from herbs, infection and poison, we observed ourselves travelling outside our body and assumed it was seperate and transitory, it did not die with the body. The rest is history, religion evolved as our environment and priorities changed, spirits of fertility, war, harvest and morality.

God is simply the Alpha male of unseen agents, it answers and explains all the whys and all its actions are intentional, be good and your spirit will go to a nice spirit world.

There is nothing sophisticated about religion or theology, its just primitive ignorance and fear.

I am convinced if you offered believers just one choice between God existing and immortality existing they would choose the latter.

Most of religion is based around death denial, they all want to be immortal heroes in their own epic.

Morality is death avoidance and immortality is death denial, combine the two and you have religion, never forget our minds are shaped by our survival instructions, it caters for both our physical and emotional well being. The anxiety of mortality in a primordial world surrounded by death threats was not a survival advantage, the mind created a concept that reduced fear, increased emotional well being and created a survival tool much like the stone axe.

Tosh old boy, you have obviously not heard about all the different ages of the earth, when everything had to start from scratch, after each one.

If there is nothing after this life then it will have been a total waste of everyones time, man has been given intelligence to make many decisions and considerations to determine what and why and how to do things. On his journey in life he learns many things and one is the contemplation of death.

Man so far as we kinow is the only creature with the same gifts although all life forms have the tendancy to preserve themselves which is another matter.

It, wether it be right or wrong, is a great comfort to thousands of people to look forward to a better life than the one they have had on earth to date.

To take away that comfort on the grounds that you do not understand the truth is to say the least, UNKIND.

Tosh old boy, you have obviously not heard about all the different ages of the earth, when everything had to start from scratch, after each one.

You should be under restraint, do you share a ward with my good friend Texas ?

It, wether it be right or wrong, is a great comfort to thousands of people to look forward to a better life than the one they have had on earth to date.

We do not distort the truth for comfort's sake, if atheists can find comfort in the finite nature of existence then so can everyone else.

To be honest the whole concept of theistic evoluton and a pre-determined universe is unbelievable, but to suggest God created everything as per a bronze age myth is incredulous to say the least.

There might be someone contributing to this thread that would benefit from the advertisement which appears at its head.

http://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/simgad/7044243410664029483

Have you tried it OW?

It, wether it be right or wrong, is a great comfort to thousands of people to look forward to a better life than the one they have had on earth to date.

To take away that comfort on the grounds that you do not understand the truth is to say the least, UNKIND.

If it was 'right' ro true the evidence would be clear, poly. If it is wrong then it is a lie and therefore it is comfort delivered under delusion. That is not kind. That is a false hope. Humans to need to concentrate their efforts on making this life, world and existence the best we can. Not sit around vainly wishing for a better life when we are dead.

People can believe anyting they want but they cannot claim it is true without evidence or proof, the entire case for a designer is a bare assertion devoid of any scientific content.

The nature of our existence must be established by a rational and consistent thinking process, building a worldview around what is comfortable rather than what is true seems to me to be pure escapism.

The whole everlasting soul or spirit thing does not make sense. What is a soul, it is a consciosness of self awareness, emotions, memories and feelings, this inner self is your ego.

Now a chimp has an ego, self awareness, emotions, memory and thinking much the same as ours, chimps possess much of our DNA and have the 2nd highest level of consciousness, does that mean they too have a soul or spirit ?

They share our self awareness and much of our emotions, memory and thinking, sounds enough commonality to form a spirit.

Oh great heaven is going to be like Planet of the Apes, hey I love monkeys but I don't want to spend eternity with them.

I feel there would be much more sense talking to a monkey than some humans.

Take a walk on the wild side, see all the animals and numerous different vegitation. flowers beyond belief regarding their make up, the birds singing their individual songs, look up and it matters not what the weather is like. wonder at the marvel of the sky, if you need any more evidence that there is a creator then the best place for you is in the place where the unfortunates have to be treated.

Or we could could just part of the Matrix....No less believable

Take a walk on the wild side, see all the animals and numerous different vegitation. flowers beyond belief regarding their make up, the birds singing their individual songs, look up and it matters not what the weather is like. wonder at the marvel of the sky, if you need any more evidence that there is a creator then the best place for you is in the place where the unfortunates have to be treated.

This is a fallacious argument (did I spell that right?.....fellatious?) Anyway, the diversity of nature is amply explained and evidenced by evolution. The fact that all living things have DNA as a code of inheritance is our first clue that we come from a common ancestor. The evidence for this is astounding but those who do not understand it will fall back on myths and fairy stories.

One should understand the limits of their knowledge. When you don't know the basics about evolution, it's a bit rich to criticise it. And the default answer for any gaps in our knowledge is not 'just look around you if you need evidence of a creator'. If he/she/it is there, he/she/it has had ample opportunity to make his presence known. It's downright silly.

Evolution has tons of evidence, wheras God has not, does not and likely never will.

polyglide,

Are you a clone of Texas, you mimic his every word, in fact is that you Texas ?

polyglide, your subjective perceptions belong in the 19th century with the other fairy stories.

You would not last a week in God's wonderful and beautiful nature.

In fact I have lasted I believe far longer than you for your comments are so infantile.

There is no evidence whatsoever that evolution is the answer to anything.

DNA in fact refutes the matter, had evolution been the answer then each animal etc; would have the same DNA.

Evolution cannot prove that any living creature or plant came about by pure chance, everything points to an intelligence far beyond our understanding and that is probably why we do not understand and make up silly suggestions like evolution.

Evolution is a theory based on unsubstantiated ideas and always will be, there is no acceptable foundation for thinking otherwise.

beyond our understanding

This is really the key point in this discussion. It's beyond our understanding, so why bother trying? That's part and parcel of the religious mindset. There's a certain comfort in not having to understand but to simply obey.

In fact I have lasted I believe far longer than you for your comments are so infantile..

You have not lasted longer in NATURE, it is brutal tooth and claw survival and only a child believes otherwise.

No need to get personal now dear, lets keep it civil, I am attacking your wacko beliefs not you personally.

There is no evidence whatsoever that evolution is the answer to anything.

It is the answer to the question why there are millions of different species on our planet, unless you are a creationist.

DNA in fact refutes the matter, had evolution been the answer then each animal etc; would have the same DNA.

If everything had the same DNA then there would be no genetic mutation and no evolution, you and everything else would still be a bit of slime in the primordial soup. The closer the DNA sequences are, the closer the ancestry, we share 97% of our DNA with chimps.

Evolution cannot prove that any living creature or plant came about by pure chance, everything points to an intelligence far beyond our understanding and that is probably why we do not understand and make up silly suggestions like evolution.

Evolution does not explain biogenesis ( how life began), genetic mutation is random, natural selection is not pure chance, the fittest mutations survive. If you are an example of intelligence then no wonder it is far beyond undestanding, I haven't met anyone with your beliefs above the age of 11.

Evolution is a theory based on unsubstantiated ideas and always will be, there is no acceptable foundation for thinking otherwise.

Evolution is a Scientific Theory, and no hypothesis is given this status if it is based on unsubstantiated ideas.

polyglide, no offence but you may be stark raving bonkers.

To wonder is to be conscious of and aware of something, anyone who does not consider the properties of consciousness and awareness a selected survival advantage does not understand natural selection, evolution or social mammal survival.

The scale of wonderment is highest in social mammals, we evolved to the top of the tree.

Self awareness created God, God did not create self awareness.

I Am that I Am (אֶהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה, ʾehyeh ʾašer ʾehyeh

roc wrote:-


Because it’s “there.” My preferred translation: “Let us make ha adama in our image, after our likeness… So Elohim created ha adama in his own image, in the image of Elohim created he him, male and female created he them.”

why if there is only ONE god does 'god' reportedly say 'let us' ....'in our' ...'after our'....who was it talking to?....were there other 'gods' with it......

why if there is only ONE god does 'god' reportedly say 'let us' ....'in our' ...'after our'....who was it talking to?....were there other 'gods' with it......

Natural spiritualism begat animism begat paganism begat polytheism begat Henothism begat Monotheism begat Deism begat Pantheism begat universal spritualism.

The religion of Canaan was originally Henotheistic until Abraham/Moses came along and fired all the supporting cast.
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