Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

by blueturando Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:10 pm

First topic message reminder :

Do Labour go hunting for the electorate who voted Blair into power 3 times and risk the wrath of the Unions, or side with the core Labour party supporters and the Unions at a risk of being unable to get back the voters who deserted them in the last election?

The scale of the rift between Labour and the unions over Ed Miliband's decision to embrace austerity measures has been made clear as a senior leader warned of long-term implications over the "most serious mistake" the party could have made.
Unions affiliated to Labour have been fuming since shadow chancellor Ed Balls told a conference at the weekend that he would not reverse the Government's planned 1% public sector pay cap, which affects millions of workers.
Unite leader Len McCluskey warned that Mr Miliband was setting Labour on course for electoral "disaster" and undermining his own leadership by accepting Government cuts and the cap on public sector pay.
Mr Miliband hit back against his union critics, insisting that Mr McCluskey was "wrong" to attack his decision to embrace austerity measures.
It has emerged that the leader of the GMB has written to the union's senior officials saying that the speech by Ed Balls may have a "profound impact" on its relationship with the Labour Party.
General secretary Paul Kenny said in the message: "I have spoken to Ed Milliband and Ed Balls to ensure they were aware of how wrong I think the policy they are now following is. It is now time for careful consideration and thought before the wider discussions begin on the long-term implications this new stance by the party has on GMB affiliation.
"It will be a fundamental requirement that the CEC (executive) and Congress determine our way forward after proper debate. I will update everyone as events unfold but I have to say this is the most serious mistake they could have made and the Tories must be rubbing their hands with glee." The GMB declined to comment on the message but confirmed it had been sent.
Mr McCluskey said in an article in The Guardian: "Ed Balls' sudden weekend embrace of austerity and the Government's public sector pay squeeze represents a victory for discredited Blairism at the expense of the party's core supporters. It also challenges the whole course Ed Miliband has set for the party, and perhaps his leadership itself."
Mr Miliband responded in a statement: "Len McCluskey is entitled to his views but he is wrong. I am changing the Labour Party so we can deliver fairness even when there is less money around and that requires tough decisions."

by blueturando Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:50 pm

I know everyone says workfare is a bad thing, but just imagine --- if the government paid a living wage for unemployed (or under employed) people to work at proper jobs, doing things the community needs like --- oh I don't know --- building houses? providing child care so parents can go out to work? providing employment services for school leavers? --- fill in the gaps - sure you can all think of other worthwhile work we need doing to give us a civilised life and a stable future --- why isn't that a possibility?

In principle Boatlady this is not a bad idea, but unfortunately as we have seen in the past certain employers will use this as cheap labour knowing salaries will be topped up by the government...The only people who will and have previously benefited from such schemes are the owners and shareholders.
Its the same as housing benefit...I am sure these landlords would not have rents at such high levels if there was NO government assistance and people couldn't afford to pay what they are charging. Property is only worth what someone is prepared to pay, or it lays empty and no landlords would be prepared to have that happen

by Redflag Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:53 am

blueturando wrote:
I know everyone says workfare is a bad thing, but just imagine --- if the government paid a living wage for unemployed (or under employed) people to work at proper jobs, doing things the community needs like --- oh I don't know --- building houses? providing child care so parents can go out to work? providing employment services for school leavers? --- fill in the gaps - sure you can all think of other worthwhile work we need doing to give us a civilised life and a stable future --- why isn't that a possibility?

In principle Boatlady this is not a bad idea, but unfortunately as we have seen in the past certain employers will use this as cheap labour knowing salaries will be topped up by the government...The only people who will and have previously benefited from such schemes are the owners and shareholders.
Its the same as housing benefit...I am sure these landlords would not have rents at such high levels if there was NO government assistance and people couldn't afford to pay what they are charging. Property is only worth what someone is prepared to pay, or it lays empty and no landlords would be prepared to have that happen

On this post blue I have to agree with you to a certain extent, you are right about the only people that benefit is the private sector the employers of people and yes that can not be allowed to carry on they same people that where squealing when Labour brought in the minimum wage, but with prices going up people now need a living wage so that they can live with dignity and feed and clothe and put a roof over the heads of there families. My own experience of private landlords is not a nice one in 1963/4 I lived in London my weekly wage was not great but it was better than most but HALF my wage went to a private landlord for one room eat sleep and socialize in share kitchen with one other and share bathroom with FOUR others that is your greedy private landlords, there needs to be rent control which the Tories done away with so that is part of the reason for todays problems with the private landlords.

by oftenwrong Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:40 pm

Sorry to disagree, Red, but Rent Controls serve to remove property from the market. Before the creation of assured shorthold, the only way you could find a place to rent was by inheritance, or by reaching the top of the waiting-list for a Council House. They're not building those any more.

by Redflag Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:49 pm

oftenwrong wrote:Sorry to disagree, Red, but Rent Controls serve to remove property from the market. Before the creation of assured shorthold, the only way you could find a place to rent was by inheritance, or by reaching the top of the waiting-list for a Council House. They're not building those any more.

No OW its the greedy landlords that remove property from the market because we refuse to pay EXORBITANT rents.

by bobby Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:53 pm

If the greedy landlords couldn't charge such high rents, they probably wouldn't buy the propertys in the first place.

by Ivanhoe Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:08 pm

bobby wrote:If the greedy landlords couldn't charge such high rents, they probably wouldn't buy the propertys in the first place.

GREED was the hallmark of the Thatcher years.

by Redflag Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:42 pm

Ivanhoe wrote:
bobby wrote:If the greedy landlords couldn't charge such high rents, they probably wouldn't buy the propertys in the first place.

GREED was the hallmark of the Thatcher years.

It has carried on into the Cameron years until we get rid of the dick head.

by boatlady Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:58 pm

My idea was that the government would pay these people - you know - give a proper wage instead of benefits and expect a proper useful week's work

by Redflag Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:32 am

boatlady wrote:My idea was that the government would pay these people - you know - give a proper wage instead of benefits and expect a proper useful week's work

Sorry boatlady the Tories believe that Unemployment is a price worth paying, the only thing wrong with that is its not them that pays the price.

by boatlady Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:41 am

might be a decent position for the Labour Party - would get my vote

by Ivanhoe Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:21 am

Redflag wrote:
boatlady wrote:My idea was that the government would pay these people - you know - give a proper wage instead of benefits and expect a proper useful week's work

Sorry boatlady the Tories believe that Unemployment is a price worth paying, the only thing wrong with that is its not them that pays the price.

Nice one Redflag. The rotten irony is that when their day comes in 2015 if not before, not of these rotten swines will ever see a dole queue.

by oftenwrong Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:24 am

".... not of these rotten swines will ever see a dole queue."

Obviously not. The Tory front bench have boardroom seats in The City already pencilled-in. It's The Old Pal's Act which has never been amended.

by Redflag Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:19 pm

oftenwrong wrote:".... not of these rotten swines will ever see a dole queue."

Obviously not. The Tory front bench have boardroom seats in The City already pencilled-in. It's The Old Pal's Act which has never been amended.

You have forgot the inherited money from mummy & daddy both Cameron and his wife are due to inherit their trust funds when their parents pop their clogs, I would love to see them suffer the things they have heaped on the UK public Oh what I would give to see that.

by sickchip Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:26 pm

I really can't see what, or who, the Labour party are representing at present.

The coalitions policies have been a disgrace, and an attack on the poorest; yet labour won't attack - apart from with a gummy slobbering mouth.

It simply won't do.

by **Phil Hornby** Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:14 pm

I have some sympathy with your cri-de-coeur, sickchip. The problem is the British electorate, who are too snooty to contemplate anything which looks or sounds like too much like the dreaded Socialism.

Those electors are too readily influenced by media scaremongering that any policy which does not adhere sufficiently closely to something like a safe conservative approach, heralds the entry of union domination and a return to Arthur Scargill at the very least.

Until Joe and Josephine Public can bear to gather confidence to wean themselves off ( a sometimes reluctant) temptation to vote Conservative -with all that that path always entails to the ordinary public's detriment - we shall be stuck with the likes of Cameron and his bandits at all-too-regular intervals.

But how frustrating it is that we should ,as a nation, so frequently continue to prefer the disease to the cure...

by oftenwrong Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:54 pm

But nobody in the Labour Party has an explanation for the self-destructive implosion of the Trade Union movement in the 1970s.

by **Ivan** Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:08 pm

oftenwrong. After the quadrupling of the price of oil by the Arab states in 1973, at about the same time as the ‘Barber boom’ (the usual Tory device of trying to create a feel-good factor before an election), we had double-digit inflation for almost a decade. When the governments of both Heath and Callaghan tried to impose wage restraint, which in effect required wages to fall in real terms, the trade unions felt it was their duty to do their utmost to protect the living standards of their members.

With hindsight, the union leaders probably realised that it was extremely foolish to bite the hand of a Labour government, since it was far more likely to have their members’ interests at heart than what came after Callaghan. The rest, as they say, is history.

by oftenwrong Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:45 pm

It's apparent that during the next several months leading to a General Election, Cameron's policies will all be designed to avoid a re-run of Eastleigh. The whole effort of Government will be thrown behind getting a Tory majority in the House of Commons. The National interest will be subordinate to that objective, and activity thought contrary will be kicked into the long grass. On the positive side, that primary motivation should preclude any Bullingdon-style of trashing the place before they go.

Within that timeframe, it might be profitable for the Labour Party to address the pointlessly adversarial aspects of political daily existence which are frankly unproductive and serve mainly to turn public taste away from schoolboy squabbling between the Honourable Members.

by sickchip Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:02 pm

A lot of people getting excited at the prospect of a Labour victory in 2015?

What do the Labour party stand for? It seems to me they're basically just tory-lite neo-liberals who basically support, and won't overturn, tory policies....much like Blair's Nu-Labour in '97.

I'd rather have a left-leaning Labour party fighting the election on it's founding ideals and for the ordinary electorate, than a Labour party elected on and continuing with a centre right manifesto. People say 'ah but a left-leaning socialist party won't get elected'.....than so be it - but it's better to try and keep trying than make not one iota of difference. Where is the fight in the Labour party?

The trouble is they are appear so frightened of a losing the middle England electorate and thus pander to them with, as I've said, centrist neo-liberal toryisms. Show some passion and offer a real alternative - rather that and lose an election than win and make no difference.

I don't want a Labour party elected that will simply spend years 'treading water', allowing inequality to continue apace, not overthrowing ALL Tory policies on welfare reform, and generally maintaining the status quo as it is.

The fact that the Labour party aren't slamming vociferously, and getting in people's faces about the current attacks on, and impoverishing, of the already poor is worrying. Why aren't they doing that? Because they are pandering to an electorate that believe welfare cuts and attacks on anybody on benefits is right.

The Labour party might be frightened of losing votes, but I fear they have lost their principles.

by **Ivan** Sun Mar 03, 2013 4:29 pm

A lot of people getting excited at the prospect of a Labour victory in 2015?

sickchip. A lot of people are getting excited about the prospect of getting rid of the most right-wing, most ideologically driven and most vicious government of sociopaths and bare-faced liars in living memory. And the only way that can happen is by voting in the only party in a position to replace this Tory-dominated coalition.

Rupert Murdoch did a deal with Cameron in 2009. In return for an unrelenting and vicious campaign from his gutter press against Gordon Brown, Coulson would get a job in Downing Street, the Murdoch stooges Hunt and Gove would get cabinet jobs, Murdoch would get BSkyB and the BBC would be fragmented to neuter any competition. Cameron hasn’t yet been able to complete his side of the deal, but we know he still hopes to do so because his rejection of Leveson shows that he‘s still in Murdoch’s pocket.

You must have noticed how the BBC has been censored in the last three years, how former Tory minister Chris Patten has been installed as Chairman of the BBC Trust, and how there was a news blackout on the passage of the NHS and welfare legislation. The NHS recorded its highest ever level of patient satisfaction three years ago, but anecdotal horror stories are regularly being dredged up and will be used to justify privatisation. The panel on ‘Question Time’ is always slanted to the right, and Farage, the leader of a tinpot party with no MPs at Westminster, has been on the programme twelve times in three years.

You don’t really think the BBC will give much air time to anything Labour says or does, do you? So maybe you’ve fallen into the intended trap of believing that “Labour isn’t doing anything”. For a start, every weekend there is a nationwide ‘Labour doorstep’ campaign, where party members, frequently accompanied by MPs, go out and meet voters. Andy Burnham delivered this speech about the NHS in January, but it went largely unreported:-
http://www.labour.org.uk/andy-burnhams-speech-to-the-kings-fund-whole-person-care,2013-01-24

If you listen to Ed’s New Year message, I don’t think you’ll find he’s “pandering to an electorate that believe welfare cuts and attacks on anybody on benefits is right.”:-
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2012/12/miliband-uses-new-year-message-counter-tories-welfare-myths

by **Phil Hornby** Sun Mar 03, 2013 4:49 pm

" The Labour party might be frightened of losing votes, but I fear they have lost their principles"

Once again, I sympathise, sickchip, but too many British voters are only too ready and willing to be conned by the propaganda on 'welfare' and 'immigration' which are the Tories' first port of call when seeking to present the rabid right's case for suggesting that only the Conservatives will seek to 'save the nation'. Accordingly, the Labour Party have a permanently uphill battle to find a course which is realistic yet compassionate, but which will not 'scare the horses'.

It is not the Labour Party's fault that we have a Tory Government - it is ours and ours alone...

by sickchip Sun Mar 03, 2013 4:58 pm

Ivan,

I'm with you on the BBC, and I'm more than with you on the need to get remove the Tory party from government.

All I'm saying is I fear the Labour party will disappoint, and fail to make the radical changes required. I fear they will remain right of centre, or centre at best; and they aren't voicing any where near enough opposition to the coalition's victimisation/scapegoating of the poor.

by sickchip Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:01 pm

Phil Hornby wrote:"

Accordingly, the Labour Party have a permanently uphill battle to find a course which is realistic yet compassionate, but which will not 'scare the horses'.

It is not the Labour Party's fault that we have a Tory Government - it is ours and ours alone...

Good post, and good points, Phil.

by tlttf Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:03 pm

Agree totally sickchip. Phil, what immigration and welfare con are you talking about, it's a reality, whether it's being handled correctly or if it's being given too much credence to the wrongs happening is another story.

by **Phil Hornby** Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:59 pm

I think most people recognise that any Tory Government under pressure from the prospect of either defeat, or an uncomfortable scrutiny of yet another of their unfair policies, will inevitably turn to scaremongering about welfare or immigrants .

Reality does not play a part of any prominence in stories concocted by a Conservative Party which is on the run , any more than it exercises their slavishly-supportive and creepy media friends who are only too willing to distract the public from the horrible facts about the activities of their equally mouth-foaming chums...

by Redflag Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:05 pm

tlttf wrote:Agree totally sickchip. Phil, what immigration and welfare con are you talking about, it's a reality, whether it's being handled correctly or if it's being given too much credence to the wrongs happening is another story.

The con tittf is all coming from YOUR gov't, blaming people that have been laid off from work because the worked in the public sector and that includes nurses, police armed forces and firemen as been a drain on the public purse and just take a good look at the state of the economy through that policy that is FLATLINING.

by bobby Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:35 am

I must admit I am getting a tad despondent about Labours performance and apparent refusal to attack this evil Tory led Coalition, and their damaging policies with anywhere near the venom that Herr Cameron has when attacking Labour.

We all know about Parliamentary privilege in the House of Commons which gives Herr Cameron a free hand with his constant lies, and the fact that the PM always has the last word, makes it even more difficult for the opposition to win an argument, I say argument and not debate as Herr Cameron will not enter into a debate because it would mean he would have to answer a question put to him.

What I think we should be seeing is for Ed Miliband and co to actually stand up and call the Tories liars every time they lie, the first couple of brave MPs to do this would probably be escorted from the house, but they cannot remove the opposition in their entirety as that would remove any form of democracy there may or may not be in Parliament.

I am beginning to feel that Labour are standing back, keeping their powder dry whilst this septic Government hang themselves, but sadly that doesn’t seem to be working.

Whist the Conservative party bolstered by the Lib-Dems continue to use the media as their tool to attack Labour, Labour really need to double or triple their efforts in bringing this government to book, it's no good waiting for what may or may not happen, they need the resolve to fight the Bastards every day, and show the public at large facts such as the ones SKWalker and Ivan are constantly publishing on cutting edge, Labour will not win the Election by waiting for Herr Cameron to put a foot wrong, as he has been PM for almost 3 years with both feet firmly planted in his gob, yet their place in the polls are not diminishing, a ten point lead is not far enough in front for my liking, just what do the Tory led Coalition actually have to do to stir the opposition into action. There is so much evidence out in the Public domain damning this Government, yet we only hear about it in articles by the likes of Toynbee or Owen, we need to see Labour Politicians openly attacking the Government at every opportunity, calling them liars when they lie and showing the general public more of the true facts.

I’m afraid that this year may well be my last, (for now) as a paying Labour member unless they feel it's time they earn my membership money and donations. The real fight should have started over a year ago and they are now leaving it too late for my liking, every day they wait another god knows how many are being brainwashed by Herr Cameron and his tame media dogs.

by Redflag Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:42 am

Hi Bobby I have taken up the same thing with an insider of the Labour party for the same reason as yourself, at the moment Ed Milibamd is giving the Tories enough rope to hang themselves I have noticed over the last four weeks the Labour party are letting things come out slowly but surely, and not forgetting the Tories are better at LYING to the public and Ed Miliband will not go down that road again they lost too many Labour members by doing that plus the Tories are getting desperate to win the next election but both you and I know they have not got a "Hope in Hell" of winning the next election. At the moment the Labour party can do very little in the H.O.C. thanks to the bloody L/Ds helping the Tories get there nasty bills through the H.O.C, the L/Ds will pay a heavy price for jumping into bed with the Tories they lost two activists at there conference last weekend while they where on stage speaking.

by **Phil Hornby** Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:14 pm

Never underestimate the capacity of the British public to forgive the excesses of a Tory Government and 'give them another chance'. There is also the prospect of the collective mind having imprinted upon it the much-trumpeted assertion that the Labour Party could not be trusted to take a sixpence to the shops for a couple of penny buns and return with the correct change.

All of that means that the 2015 General Election will be a mightily close thing and that even the repulsive and treacherous LibDems will come through relatively unscathed - and certainly far less damaged than they so richly deserve after their unforgivable subservience to a disgusting Tory administration.

Add to the mix the maelstrom of propaganda which will helpfully accompany the Tory battle to hold onto power and we have every likelihood that Cameron could even win another term with his poodle Clegg sitting faithfully and willingly at his feet.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, everyone.... Embarassed

by bobby Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:39 pm

No apology needed Phil, you are probably quite close to the truth, which is why I said that labour need to up their game.

Like many I think the ultimate answer would be to have a new party, one that would be untarnished by history, unfortunately there isn’t enough time between now and the next GE in 2015, to sort out a wedding reception let alone form and finance a new Political party, so that said I now see the Labour party as the best of what we have.

by Redflag Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:29 pm

Bobby do not worry the Labour party will step up to the plate, as you know I was in Eastleigh to help out for the last four days of the by-election I sat on a coach for 11 hours to get there and I would not have done that if I had any doubts in the Labour party.

by bobby Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:23 pm

Hello Red. Very well done in your endeavours for the Labour Party at Eastleigh.

You Red are exactly what I mean, you have got yourself out there and put yourself about. I feel the Labour team now need to do the same.

Don’t get me wrong Red I will be voting for them come 2015 but due to the one sided media machine, it appears that we are hearing very little from them, all we are hearing is Conservative this and Lib-Dem that, and as they say a bad press is better than no press at all.

Labour are accused all the time of having no policies, we hear it all the time from our very own Blueturando, but we know they have policies and some very good socialist policies, but the information just isn’t getting out to those that matter. Many voters will know way ahead of the GE just who they will vote for, so Labour need to make certain that any floating voters are swayed to Labour and not to the likes of Ukip, and well before May 2015, I believe they are leaving it to late and they need to up their game now. I don’t think the election will be anywhere near a walkover and every vote will need to be earned.

Many Tories themselves are now openly saying it will be a Labour win, I don’t believe for one minute they are saying that for any other reason than to male their own party the underdogs, in order that any Labour support will feel safe with a potential win and stay at home instead of voting.

I really hope you are right in what you believe but I fear Phil Hornby may be closer to the truth.

by oftenwrong Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:32 pm

Something too easily attained may not be worth having.

by Redflag Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:35 pm

oftenwrong wrote:Something too easily attained may not be worth having.

Your correct OW if you get something too easily its never appreciated, but bobby has got a good points the Labour party need to start fighting now for the votes of the people of the UK so that we get an good majority in 2015.

by blueturando Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:59 am

Bobby do not worry the Labour party will step up to the plate, as you know I was in Eastleigh to help out for the last four days of the by-election I sat on a coach for 11 hours to get there and I would not have done that if I had any doubts in the Labour party..

In your own words Red all you could offer the voters of Eastleigh was Tea and Sympathy. Then again I guess that is your idea of Labour stepping up to the plate...Good luck with that

by Redflag Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:30 am

[quote="blueturando"]

Bobby do not worry the Labour party will step up to the plate, as you know I was in Eastleigh to help out for the last four days of the by-election I sat on a coach for 11 hours to get there and I would not have done that if I had any doubts in the Labour party..

In your own words Red all you could offer the voters of Eastleigh was Tea and Sympathy. Then again I guess that is your idea of Labour stepping up to the plate...Good luck with that[/quot]

You condecending patronizing OAF, all the Tory gov't can offer is ??? Double Dip Recessioin then for good measure a Triple Dip Recession Plenty of Unemployment a Flatlining Economy loss of Triple A status and what is most important of all a 5p tax cut for Millionaires. They will tax the poor for having a spare bedroom knowing they can not move to a smaller house because the MAGGOT had sold most of the council houses and NEVER replaced them with the money that was paid for them, but will not tax the Mansions of the wealthy that have numerous bedrooms they may even allow the wealthy to get there MOATS CLEANED at tax payers expense.

They are a bastardised version of Robin Hood, the exception being that Robin Hood grew ever more popular with his antics ~ the tories just cant seem to help digging the hole they are in...

COME 2015 THERE WILL BE A LABOUR GOV'T THANKS TO THE INCOMPETENCE OF THE TORY PARTY

by blueturando Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:12 pm

Stick to the thread Redflag....This is one asking where LABOUR should position itself and so far I haven't heard anything usefull. You just fall back to type and go on about the Tories and Thatcher, which 1. You've done in 99% of your messages (borrrring) and 2. Seeing as youre involved in campaigns and possibly in the know, doesn't say much for the Labour Party and what they could offer the electorate.

Now try to forget the coalition, the Tories and a 1980's Thatcher government for 2 minutes and please tell us all what you think on where the Labour party should position itself and what they have to offer the electorate. My bet (a tenner) says you cannot do it AT ALL, or without slagging off the Tories & Thatcher. Please feel free to prove me wrong Smile

by blueturando Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:14 pm

COME 2015 THERE WILL BE A LABOUR GOV'T THANKS TO THE INCOMPETENCE OF THE TORY PARTY.

Youre probably right, but will it be a case of 'more of the same' or will they offer something different. I haven't heard anything to support the latter

by blueturando Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:19 pm

You condecending patronizing OAF

I take it the weddings off then Smile

by oftenwrong Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:20 pm

Labour learned the hard way that in dealing with the devious Tories means keeping your cards close to the chest. Prior to the 2005 Election, the Party laid out its stall, only to find that within a week all of the best clothing which they'd presented to the electorate was being worn by True Blues.

The message is to keep your powder dry until you see the whites of their eyes.

by bobby Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:15 pm

blueturando said: I take it the weddings off then Smile

Oh shit, and I shaved my legs so that I would look good in a brides maids dress.
ow said: The message is to keep your powder dry until you see the whites of their eyes.
Quite right ow, but you don't have to show your policies to fight the evil bastards, but Labour do need to be seen to be fighting.

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