Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

by blueturando Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:10 pm

First topic message reminder :

Do Labour go hunting for the electorate who voted Blair into power 3 times and risk the wrath of the Unions, or side with the core Labour party supporters and the Unions at a risk of being unable to get back the voters who deserted them in the last election?

The scale of the rift between Labour and the unions over Ed Miliband's decision to embrace austerity measures has been made clear as a senior leader warned of long-term implications over the "most serious mistake" the party could have made.
Unions affiliated to Labour have been fuming since shadow chancellor Ed Balls told a conference at the weekend that he would not reverse the Government's planned 1% public sector pay cap, which affects millions of workers.
Unite leader Len McCluskey warned that Mr Miliband was setting Labour on course for electoral "disaster" and undermining his own leadership by accepting Government cuts and the cap on public sector pay.
Mr Miliband hit back against his union critics, insisting that Mr McCluskey was "wrong" to attack his decision to embrace austerity measures.
It has emerged that the leader of the GMB has written to the union's senior officials saying that the speech by Ed Balls may have a "profound impact" on its relationship with the Labour Party.
General secretary Paul Kenny said in the message: "I have spoken to Ed Milliband and Ed Balls to ensure they were aware of how wrong I think the policy they are now following is. It is now time for careful consideration and thought before the wider discussions begin on the long-term implications this new stance by the party has on GMB affiliation.
"It will be a fundamental requirement that the CEC (executive) and Congress determine our way forward after proper debate. I will update everyone as events unfold but I have to say this is the most serious mistake they could have made and the Tories must be rubbing their hands with glee." The GMB declined to comment on the message but confirmed it had been sent.
Mr McCluskey said in an article in The Guardian: "Ed Balls' sudden weekend embrace of austerity and the Government's public sector pay squeeze represents a victory for discredited Blairism at the expense of the party's core supporters. It also challenges the whole course Ed Miliband has set for the party, and perhaps his leadership itself."
Mr Miliband responded in a statement: "Len McCluskey is entitled to his views but he is wrong. I am changing the Labour Party so we can deliver fairness even when there is less money around and that requires tough decisions."

by bobby Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:15 pm

blueturando said: I take it the weddings off then Smile

Oh shit, and I shaved my legs so that I would look good in a brides maids dress.
ow said: The message is to keep your powder dry until you see the whites of their eyes.
Quite right ow, but you don't have to show your policies to fight the evil bastards, but Labour do need to be seen to be fighting.

by Redflag Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:39 pm

blueturando wrote:Stick to the thread Redflag....This is one asking where LABOUR should position itself and so far I haven't heard anything usefull. You just fall back to type and go on about the Tories and Thatcher, which 1. You've done in 99% of your messages (borrrring) and 2. Seeing as youre involved in campaigns and possibly in the know, doesn't say much for the Labour Party and what they could offer the electorate.

Now try to forget the coalition, the Tories and a 1980's Thatcher government for 2 minutes and please tell us all what you think on where the Labour party should position itself and what they have to offer the electorate. My bet (a tenner) says you cannot do it AT ALL, or without slagging off the Tories & Thatcher. Please feel free to prove me wrong

WHERE SHOULD THE LABOUR PARTY POSITION ITSELF "WELL ABOVE THE TORIES & L/Ds"

by boatlady Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:04 pm

I think the Labour Party should position themselves in a proper SOCIALIST position - State ownership of the means of production, proper representation in government - not career politicians, and lets bring in a bit of this 'internet democracy'.
What we have at the moment does not represent the will of the people - only the will of the elite.
Lets vote for a party that's not afraid to find out what the people want and to deliver it.
Oops - I've had a glass of wine again drunken

by skwalker1964 Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:05 pm

Labour have a 12-point lead in the polls without 'being seen to be fighting', if that is truly the case. I agree with Red about the gradual ramping-up - I'm taking nothing for granted, but I do see the signs there, for example in Andy Burnham's admission the other week that I mentioned on the Health board that Labour allowed too much private involvement in the NHS and his vision of an integrated care and health system free at the point of need.

Extending the FATPON principle to social care as well as health care is a genuinely revolutionary idea and one that the Tories would never countenance and the LibDems wouldn't have the balls for. It definitely couldn't be called playing it safe.

Jon Cruddas' influence and significance also shouldn't be minimised - a deep-thinking, genuinely socialist policy guru, and a definite step away from the Blair era.

That said, there's always room for more - as I wrote last year: http://skwalker1964.wordpress.com/2012/07/27/the-radical-imperative-who-dares-wins/

by blueturando Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:41 am

WHERE SHOULD THE LABOUR PARTY POSITION ITSELF "WELL ABOVE THE TORIES & L/Ds".

My Tenner is safe then...I thought as much, but maybe the marriage is still on (Bobby get the shaver out again) Smile

Now even as a Tory I can see that for the most part the government is pants and even as a non politician I can see where they are going wrong and what they should do about it...But! I cannot take anything most people say here seriously when all they are is against everything and for nothing...unless youre suggesting we have no government at all and can just be ruled by the EU?

Anyone can say we are for equality and fairness, that's easy to say even for me, but how would YOU achieve it. Lets face it, it's obvious Labour have no plan, no ideas and no policies so maybe you have ideas on a personal level

by blueturando Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:45 am

Labour have a 12-point lead in the polls without 'being seen to be fighting', if that is truly the case

Frankly is wouldn't matter if Labour had a 30 point lead now in 2013, buts lets see what the lead is in the run up to 2015...then it could matter

The devil on my shoulder wants Labour to win the next GE when the country is still in the sh*t....See how they like it for a change and lets see how they cope with no money to burn...Not very well me thinks

by Redflag Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:09 am

blueturando wrote:
Labour have a 12-point lead in the polls without 'being seen to be fighting', if that is truly the case

Frankly is wouldn't matter if Labour had a 30 point lead now in 2013, buts lets see what the lead is in the run up to 2015...then it could matter

The devil on my shoulder wants Labour to win the next GE when the country is still in the sh*t....See how they like it for a change and lets see how they cope with no money to burn...Not very well me thinks

If you expect the good people of the UK to vote Tory or UKIP you must been taking mind altering drugs Very Happy

, when it has been proven that the low paid sick and disabled are paying 60% of the deficit and the people who caused this mess are getting off with it and still getting huge salaries and even bigger bonuses and this is all down to the Tory gov't they are cutting welfare benifits public services and everything else EXCEPT forcing the people that caused this to pay it back, so does that mean if I commit a murder you will go and do the prison time with some of your posts you should be jailed.

As for the UKIP party they are nothing more than a second hand Tory party, that is why those that normally vote Tory are now voting UKIP and Eastleigh by-election was the prime example so if you do not vote for the devil why vote for his brother.

by skwalker1964 Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:06 am

blueturando wrote:
Labour have a 12-point lead in the polls without 'being seen to be fighting', if that is truly the case

Frankly is wouldn't matter if Labour had a 30 point lead now in 2013, buts lets see what the lead is in the run up to 2015...then it could matter

The devil on my shoulder wants Labour to win the next GE when the country is still in the sh*t....See how they like it for a change and lets see how they cope with no money to burn...Not very well me thinks

There is no shortage of cash - companies and a small number of individuals are sitting on more than enough to clear the debt, let alone the deficit.

What's lacking is intelligent and well-enforced taxation - used for investment for growth. It's not really rocket-science - the idea that there's a cash shortage/structural deficit is down to misleading by a party with a vested interest (helped by a stupid joke by a departing Labour minister).

by **Phil Hornby** Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:20 am

There is nothing to gain for the Labour Party in announcing any policy initiative two years out from a General Election, knowing that the Tories would have the opportunity to take aim at every turn and take the spotlight off themselves and their dire record in government.

Besides, whatever policies Miliband announced would be quickly subsumed in a commentary from the Daily Mail et al which would seek to interpret them (deliberately inaccurately) for the gullible British public's consumption. Accordingly, why not let the Tory Press just make it up as they do already and keep the real detail for a more suitable moment.

And are we to believe that the current raft of Cameron's own policies will not see some mysterious cosmetic change prior to 2015 in a bid to con the electorate yet again?

by blueturando Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:00 pm

Besides, whatever policies Miliband announced would be quickly subsumed in a commentary from the Daily Mail et al which would seek to interpret them (deliberately inaccurately) for the gullible British public's consumption.

The Daily Mail website is the only UK news website in the 'World' TOP 10 with 24,800,000 - Estimated Unique Monthly Visitors. They must be doing something right

by **Phil Hornby** Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:21 pm

Public hangings would still probably get a sizeable audience too...

by blueturando Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:37 pm

If you expect the good people of the UK to vote Tory or UKIP you must been taking mind altering drugs , when it has been proven that the low paid sick and disabled are paying 60% of the deficit and the people who caused this mess are getting off with it and still getting huge salaries and even bigger bonuses and this is all down to the Tory gov't they are cutting welfare benifits public services and everything else EXCEPT forcing the people that caused this to pay it back, so does that mean if I commit a murder you will go and do the prison time with some of your posts you should be jailed.

As for the UKIP party they are nothing more than a second hand Tory party, that is why those that normally vote Tory are now voting UKIP and Eastleigh by-election was the prime example so if you do not vote for the devil why vote for his brother..

Redflag......You sound like youre in a great mood today, just wondering...was it you planted by Labour in the QT audience last week?

Now firstly the sick and disabled etc are not paying 60% of the deficit. The deficit is very different to the national debt. The deficit is the difference between what the government receives in taxes to what is pays out and the figure had to be reduced or we would keep racking up higher and higher DEBTS for generations to come.
We are never going to agree you and I, but I am sure that if you beloved Labour party come back into power in 2015 they are not going to go back down the route of restoring any benefit savings made by the coalition and I would put money on that. Even Balls and co know the welfare bill is way too high and for some, benefits have become a dependency culture. Lastly on this one Redflag, if you want to be taken seriously you have to tell to truth when making statements IE: the government is not making cuts to benefits, it's keeping the increase at 1% The same as the increase in public sector pay. I know it's hard for Labour peeps to be honest, but please try harder next time

I am not a fan of how the banks have behaved and are still behaving, but I would be less of a fan if people like you who seem to want the finance idustry to vanish from the UK when they contribute over £14 BILLION in taxes per year (almost 13% of all tax received by the government). If you want to put measures in place that will mean more banks and financial services companies upsticks and move abroad then you had better have a good idea on how to plug the tax revenue gap left behind. Not so many years ago London along with New York became the financial centres of the world and it wouldn't take much for that to change as they disappear to new locations.
As well as being major players, the bankers exposed the mess that was under the surface with inflated government spending and waste, too much credit on offer and 100-130% mortgages for people who would never be able to afford it. The whole thing was a house of cards waiting to tumble and I know you don't wanna hear this, but all our politician were complicit in this from Thatcher to Brown.
Miliband and Balls know they would have to walk a thin line on this because if they implement measures that you and others on the left would like, then they know that the finance industry would have know qualms in moving somewhere else.
Saying all this I do think bankers bonuses are disgusting and leave a very bad smell in the air

by **Phil Hornby** Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:24 pm

I suppose that, of all the political stances one can take, not caring a monkey's for those who are struggling without hope is one option...

by blueturando Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:33 pm

Why are people struggling with no hope Phil???? This is the UK where we have free education and healthcare and a benefit system in place. Now people living in ghettos in for example India, Africa and South America with no healthcare, education, social housing, food and welfare assistance are the ones with no or very little hope...Lets get real Phil

by tlttf Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:36 pm

Leave it out blue, since when has reality ever shown itself on this forum. "It's all Thatchers fault don't you know".

by blueturando Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:36 pm

Caring for people takes Money Phil and cutting off one of the UK biggest revenue streams seems like madness to me....But I agree the boneses need to be reigned in...a lot!!!

by blueturando Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:38 pm

Hi TLTTF...Yes sorry mate I completely forgot, what the hell am I thinking...1997 - 2010 never even happened and Thatcher was really the one in charge all that time Surprised

by tlttf Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:40 pm

Now that you've been brought back down to earth blue, have a nice day and don't be a naughty boy again. Very Happy

by **Phil Hornby** Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:43 pm

Just our luck - both members of The Institute of Compassion seem to be having an afternoon outing...! Very Happy

.

by blueturando Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:43 pm

Lol thanks Tlttf, I will try and behave myself....Off to buy a copy of the Socialist Worker ( Now there's a contradiction in terms ) Smile

by blueturando Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:44 pm

Come and join the party Phil....we're off to the Bullingdon club laters for some champers old chap

by tlttf Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:50 pm

Not sure if Phil's allowed in due to his expose of the innocent well meaning members blue. Very Happy

by **Phil Hornby** Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:52 pm

I'd love to join you, but I have to go and serve tea to some folks at the Home for Retired Bigots. Any messaage I can pass to them from you to cheer them up...? Very Happy

by tlttf Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:55 pm

Just give them a copy of the Labour party manifesto Phil, should keep them quiet for a while. oh and lace their tea with a touch of champagne they like that. Smile

by blueturando Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:57 pm

Ahh come on we could give him a visitors pass for the day. Having one of the commerners in for a while will amuse Giles, Miles, Quentin, Horatio, Henrietta, Penelope and Lucinda...Good ole chaps...what what!!

by blueturando Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:58 pm

I'd love to join you, but I have to go and serve tea to some folks at the Home for Retired Bigots. Any messaage I can pass to them from you to cheer them up...?

Hilarious Phil, you've made my day...Save me a room mate Smile

by blueturando Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:00 pm

Or he could give them Labours latest policy ideas......Lots of room left for colouring Very Happy

by **Phil Hornby** Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:02 pm

I feel spoilt by such entertainment - although I confess to having some trouble distinguishing the ventriloquist from the dummy... Very Happy

by skwalker1964 Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:11 pm

tlttf wrote:Leave it out blue, since when has reality ever shown itself on this forum. "It's all Thatchers fault don't you know".

Is that like the coalition's current 'It's all Labour's fault'/'the mess we inherited' refrains, tlttf? Smile

Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1) - Page 21 Huhnei11

by skwalker1964 Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:23 pm

blueturando wrote:As well as being major players, the bankers exposed the mess that was under the surface with inflated government spending and waste, too much credit on offer and 100-130% mortgages for people who would never be able to afford it. The whole thing was a house of cards waiting to tumble and I know you don't wanna hear this, but all our politician were complicit in this from Thatcher to Brown.

Blue, that's just nonsense. The bank bailout of around £500bn more than doubled the entire UK national debt. The 'structural deficit' is a useful, political fiction - it just doesn't exist. The government always has the option of increasing taxation to meet spending requirements, in spite of protestations to the contrary by the right - there's no magical limit that we're overshooting. Sounds good, though - technical enough to fool the majority of people who don't know better.

by Redflag Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:07 pm

Phil Hornby wrote:I feel spoilt by such entertainment - although I confess to having some trouble distinguishing the ventriloquist from the dummy...

After reading the above posts PH I had the same problem as yourself figuring out which is the ventriloquist and which one is the dummy. lol!

by bobby Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:46 pm

Its simple. the ventriloquist is the one wiv a didgit up his arse. Very Happy

by oftenwrong Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:44 pm

Speaking of which, how long can David Cameron keep a straight face whilst pretending to accept the Leveson Report?

Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1) - Page 21 9532F97BB78A6F34E776296DC425E7

Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1) - Page 21 9532F97BB78A6F34E776296DC425E7

by **Phil Hornby** Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:14 pm

Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1) - Page 21 Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTTGWKYlzYyXVa4KMA2lSMy9-SqL9f9WsM4ZMIPxx55S0_qvOoW2w

(telegraph.co.uk)

" What are you going to do about this dreadful Leveson business , David?"

" I don't know , darling - Mr Murdoch hasn't told me yet..."

by Redflag Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:14 am

bobby wrote:Its simple. the ventriloquist is the one wiv a didgit up his arse.

Thanks for that Bobby now I know why right wingers walk funny and sound funny, its because there all walking around with a DIDGIT up there ASS.

by Redflag Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:28 am

tlttf wrote:Just give them a copy of the Labour party manifesto Phil, should keep them quiet for a while. oh and lace their tea with a touch of champagne they like that.

Blue & Tittf you're just like a couple of naughty school boys in the playground, with I will let you see mine if you show me yours first, the Tory party is DESPERATE to see what the Labour party Manifesto says to the extent of claiming we do not have one.

As for us left wingers refusing to acknowledge we where in power for 13 years just like you right wingers refusing to acknowledge the 18 years of the Tory party neglect to our NHS and the destruction of our manufacturing( that is when you make things and sell them to other parts of the world) also coal mining, ship building, and steel production, not forgetting selling offf the Utilities & council houses.

Just so you know where I am coming from as long as the right wingers cast up the 13 years of Labour mistakes and yes I agree the Labour party did not get it right every time but they did do some good after the 18 years of Thatchers neglect Minimum wage and the waiting times in the NHS down from 18 months to around 8 WEEKS.

by jackthelad Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:52 pm

Blueturando says some people have a morbid fixation on Thatcher, has an ex-miner I wouldn't say my fixation is morbid,far from it. I hate the woman for what she did the the mining industry and the mining community. The Conservative policy is to close coal fired power stations or turn them into burning bio fuels, they are taking up farming land that originally grew food to grow fast growing willow to burn at the power stations. While we are getting away from coal, from which we have plenty off, Germany is building 100 coal fired power stations India is building 90 and China is building 300. My son works in the industry that has contracts with power stations doing servicing to the boilers and pipe work. It appears they are not to bothered in global warming. Since Maggie closed the mines imported coal prices have gone through the roof, and gas and oil prices have gone sky high too, yet we are sitting on millions and millions of tonnes of coal. The lunatics are running the country.
I have not been able to sign in for a few days, kept telling me I was banned, what was all that about, we can't deport known terrorist but a poster can be banned for no reason, the world is mad, run by the insane.

by **Ivan** Fri Mar 15, 2013 4:25 pm

I have not been able to sign in for a few days, kept telling me I was banned, what was all that about, we can't deport known terrorist but a poster can be banned for no reason, the world is mad, run by the insane

jackthelad. Yes, that's right, I'm a "carpet-chewing lunatic", I believe. You could have sent me an email; I’ve written to you within the past month, so you must have my address.

A technical glitch caused an unknown number of posters to be excluded from the forum, including you, trevor2539 and Jill Segger. I’ve spent much of the last 24 hours trying to correct it and getting advice from Forumotion Support. It appears that the problem has now been solved.

While I was doing that, you decided to slag me off in public on another forum, even posting obscenities. Knowing some of the company you’ve been keeping in recent months, I’m not surprised that you think posting boards are the place to air grievances, spread gossip and tell lies. We usually try to be discreet here and don’t launch public attacks on what people post on other boards, but having seen your ‘gratitude’ for my efforts, I’m prepared to make an exception today.

by jackthelad Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:29 pm

Ivan wrote:
I have not been able to sign in for a few days, kept telling me I was banned, what was all that about, we can't deport known terrorist but a poster can be banned for no reason, the world is mad, run by the insane
jackthelad. Yes, that's right, I'm a "carpet-chewing lunatic", I believe. You could have sent me an email; I’ve written to you within the past month, so you must have my address.

A technical glitch caused an unknown number of posters to be excluded from the forum, including you, trevor2539 and Jill Segger. I’ve spent much of the last 24 hours trying to correct it and getting advice from Forumotion Support. It appears that the problem has now been solved.

While I was doing that, you decided to slag me off in public on another forum, even posting obscenities. Knowing some of the company you’ve been keeping in recent months, I’m not surprised that you think posting boards are the place to air grievances, spread gossip and tell lies. We usually try to be discreet here and don’t launch public attacks on what people post on other boards, but having seen your ‘gratitude’ for my efforts, I’m prepared to make an exception today.

Now Ivan, I will first start with me having your address, you have not contacted me in the past month and I don't have your address, the only time you have contacted me is when you invited me to this board and that was a long time ago.
Secondly I have never called you a carpet chewer, I also know from Moonbeam our banning wasn't your fault
and i haven't made any public attack on you whatsoever.
I don't recall you ever coming on to the board you are referring to, that will be the Anything goes board but I suppose you are the mysterious guest they are up talking about. We have talked about you banning people, we have very few members, one of those members was banned from your board soon after joining, I did remark she was banned because she is a stroppy Bolshie Tory, that was just in fun. All I can say is eavesdroppers never do hear anything good about themselves. You make reference to the company I keep, well all I can say is they are all good and fine people. Trevor is one of our members and also one of yours, a good man, we only have eight that regularly contribute, one of those eight is Moonbeam, jonbel is the Tory I was referring to, a diamond of the first water, once you have stripped her of her political believes. MK a gentleman and whocanibe not a bad bone in her body. Then there is Sudds and Egginbonce (eggy) they would be classed as sane if you could get them in for an examination. That's the lot, who among them would you class as bad company, I resent that remark about my friends, and in all honesty I can call them friends.
I may owe you an apology on reflection, when I post something I get an e-mail from cuttingedge to say someone has posted after me on that thread, if that is you, I a sorry I usually delete them straightaway so do not know if I can send an e-mail back. I am not a computer buff, not that clever with them, even my new iPad is still a puzzle to me.
Finally I was annoyed for being banned for no reason, and by the way you have gone off at me you would have been also.

by jackthelad Fri Mar 15, 2013 6:26 pm

Ivan, I owe you an apology, I have been back on the Anything goes board and read back, I did say you came over has bit of carpet chewer, my memory is not as good as it was. I will not add anything more in case I hang myself, we'll maybe this you are judging people you don't have a clue about, there is nothing wrong with any of the posters on the Anything goes board.

by **Ivan** Fri Mar 15, 2013 6:38 pm

jackthelad. Thank you for the apology, it's much appreciated. I wasn't referring earlier to the 'Anything Goes' forum but to another place which harbours someone who has been stalking me for the best part of two years.

If you receive an email when someone replies to a message of yours, it's because you opted to do so. Such emails don’t come from either Shirina or myself but are automated. Maybe you deleted, without reading, the email which I sent you on 23 February - which among other matters congratulated you on your 60th wedding anniversary - because you thought it was one such message. I have already sent you that email again, and I suggest we put all this to bed and move on.

Thanks again for your response.

I apologise to members for this deviation from the thread topic.

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