Is there any alternative to the jaundiced Tory attitudes?

by oftenwrong Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:56 pm

First topic message reminder :

Depressing, isn't it? All the miserable gits can come up with is oppression of the poor and fear of the disadvantaged. Never mind, here's something that can make us all feel better about the human race - even if it does have to include Cameron and Company .........

http://www.buzzfeed.com/expresident/pictures-that-will-restore-your-faith-in-humanity

by Ivanhoe Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:43 pm

tlttf wrote:I do, however as they're the only party able to shift the troughites it was a case of "damned if you do, damned if you don't".

"I do" ?

by Stox 16 Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:14 am

Ivanhoe wrote:
witchfinder wrote:There is a well known saying "the tip of the iceberg"

What the general public do not understand is that there are Conservative MPs who genuinely wish to abolish the minimum wage, totaly privatise the NHS, do away with housing benefit completely, slash public spending way beyond the present cuts and abandon virtualy all employment rights.

The general public are naive, most do not understand what hard-line tory dogma is realy about, many people who voted Conservative genuinely believe that the Tories care about ordinary people.

The left of centre small "c" Conservative party prior to the Thatcher era did have a social conscience.

Thatcher changed all this when she took that party to the right.

I believe the people you mention arent aware of that change. Yes the general public are terribly naive about politics. No they dont understand what hard line Tory policies are all about.

At the last general election and due to the Thatcher/Major years, I myself was genuinly shocked and surprised that Cameron's right wingers got any votes at all. I often wonder if any of those people who voted for Cameron, wish they had'nt. ???

I have always found the British mentality to traditional politics very interesting. In fact I have read so many thoughts on why people do not understand politics and are naive about this subject. I have sort of come to the view that many people are in fear of politics as a whole plus are so busy living within a world that is easy to for them to do something about for themselves. its almost become much more easy to say there all the same or I do not really care myself as it will not effect my Small world that i can control myself. So I believe you dead right in saying... people you mention arent aware of that change. this is even more true within the younger people who know longer watch the TV News or read a good newspaper. so again your quite right....general public are terribly naive about politics or even things that effect them. Yet today we have more ways of communication and technology than I could ever dream possible as a young man. but what have we done with it? well we have turned to things and technology to help us escape the unpleasant realities of life and therefore avoiding problems that we somehow feel powerless to change. yet its clear that we could change things if we was to try and have even managed to change how things are done by what the media call social networks like facebook and co. However, its interesting to me that these act of changing things by social networks are never seen as political act by the very people who do this? when they are political acts in all but name. so maybe there is a sort new politics taking place that we do not fully yet understand. how this all works out in the long run only God will know.

as for what people who vote for Cameron now think? well that too is a interesting one. I think some people just got fed up with the last government as they do with all government in the end. yet some on the other hand who are today out of work must feel pretty sick by now i should think. others will always vote for the right wing. but I think that most people are now really questioning this government and are seeing Cameron in his true light now. I should think many are quite shocked by what they have seen so far. as its like some very bad pantomine performance that has turned the economy into a total failure and now into some economic fiasco by the day.

For me.. seeing Cameron on TV is like having a daly visit from the local Snake oil salesman who's only news is the constant prediction of another economic failure to come. in fact I now believe that when he comes on the TV there should now be a public heath hazard warning sign running across the bottom of every TV. as lets face it... if this was a game of chess.. the queen, bishop, rooks are all gone and the rest of the right wing pawns move only on message. its game over really. we are all left just killing time till 2015 now.

by Ivanhoe Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:16 am

Stox 16 wrote:
Ivanhoe wrote:
witchfinder wrote:There is a well known saying "the tip of the iceberg"

What the general public do not understand is that there are Conservative MPs who genuinely wish to abolish the minimum wage, totaly privatise the NHS, do away with housing benefit completely, slash public spending way beyond the present cuts and abandon virtualy all employment rights.

The general public are naive, most do not understand what hard-line tory dogma is realy about, many people who voted Conservative genuinely believe that the Tories care about ordinary people.

The left of centre small "c" Conservative party prior to the Thatcher era did have a social conscience.

Thatcher changed all this when she took that party to the right.

I believe the people you mention arent aware of that change. Yes the general public are terribly naive about politics. No they dont understand what hard line Tory policies are all about.

At the last general election and due to the Thatcher/Major years, I myself was genuinly shocked and surprised that Cameron's right wingers got any votes at all. I often wonder if any of those people who voted for Cameron, wish they had'nt. ???

I have always found the British mentality to traditional politics very interesting. In fact I have read so many thoughts on why people do not understand politics and are naive about this subject. I have sort of come to the view that many people are in fear of politics as a whole plus are so busy living within a world that is easy to for them to do something about for themselves. its almost become much more easy to say there all the same or I do not really care myself as it will not effect my Small world that i can control myself. So I believe you dead right in saying... people you mention arent aware of that change. this is even more true within the younger people who know longer watch the TV News or read a good newspaper. so again your quite right....general public are terribly naive about politics or even things that effect them. Yet today we have more ways of communication and technology than I could ever dream possible as a young man. but what have we done with it? well we have turned to things and technology to help us escape the unpleasant realities of life and therefore avoiding problems that we somehow feel powerless to change. yet its clear that we could change things if we was to try and have even managed to change how things are done by what the media call social networks like facebook and co. However, its interesting to me that these act of changing things by social networks are never seen as political act by the very people who do this? when they are political acts in all but name. so maybe there is a sort new politics taking place that we do not fully yet understand. how this all works out in the long run only God will know.

as for what people who vote for Cameron now think? well that too is a interesting one. I think some people just got fed up with the last government as they do with all government in the end. yet some on the other hand who are today out of work must feel pretty sick by now i should think. others will always vote for the right wing. but I think that most people are now really questioning this government and are seeing Cameron in his true light now. I should think many are quite shocked by what they have seen so far. as its like some very bad pantomine performance that has turned the economy into a total failure and now into some economic fiasco by the day.

For me.. seeing Cameron on TV is like having a daly visit from the local Snake oil salesman who's only news is the constant prediction of another economic failure to come. in fact I now believe that when he comes on the TV there should now be a public heath hazard warning sign running across the bottom of every TV. as lets face it... if this was a game of chess.. the queen, bishop, rooks are all gone and the rest of the right wing pawns move only on message. its game over really. we are all left just killing time till 2015 now.

by Ivanhoe Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:20 am

Ivanhoe wrote:
Stox 16 wrote:
Ivanhoe wrote:
witchfinder wrote:There is a well known saying "the tip of the iceberg"

What the general public do not understand is that there are Conservative MPs who genuinely wish to abolish the minimum wage, totaly privatise the NHS, do away with housing benefit completely, slash public spending way beyond the present cuts and abandon virtualy all employment rights.

The general public are naive, most do not understand what hard-line tory dogma is realy about, many people who voted Conservative genuinely believe that the Tories care about ordinary people.

The left of centre small "c" Conservative party prior to the Thatcher era did have a social conscience.

Thatcher changed all this when she took that party to the right.

I believe the people you mention arent aware of that change. Yes the general public are terribly naive about politics. No they dont understand what hard line Tory policies are all about.

At the last general election and due to the Thatcher/Major years, I myself was genuinly shocked and surprised that Cameron's right wingers got any votes at all. I often wonder if any of those people who voted for Cameron, wish they had'nt. ???

I have always found the British mentality to traditional politics very interesting. In fact I have read so many thoughts on why people do not understand politics and are naive about this subject. I have sort of come to the view that many people are in fear of politics as a whole plus are so busy living within a world that is easy to for them to do something about for themselves. its almost become much more easy to say there all the same or I do not really care myself as it will not effect my Small world that i can control myself. So I believe you dead right in saying... people you mention arent aware of that change. this is even more true within the younger people who know longer watch the TV News or read a good newspaper. so again your quite right....general public are terribly naive about politics or even things that effect them. Yet today we have more ways of communication and technology than I could ever dream possible as a young man. but what have we done with it? well we have turned to things and technology to help us escape the unpleasant realities of life and therefore avoiding problems that we somehow feel powerless to change. yet its clear that we could change things if we was to try and have even managed to change how things are done by what the media call social networks like facebook and co. However, its interesting to me that these act of changing things by social networks are never seen as political act by the very people who do this? when they are political acts in all but name. so maybe there is a sort new politics taking place that we do not fully yet understand. how this all works out in the long run only God will know.

as for what people who vote for Cameron now think? well that too is a interesting one. I think some people just got fed up with the last government as they do with all government in the end. yet some on the other hand who are today out of work must feel pretty sick by now i should think. others will always vote for the right wing. but I think that most people are now really questioning this government and are seeing Cameron in his true light now. I should think many are quite shocked by what they have seen so far. as its like some very bad pantomine performance that has turned the economy into a total failure and now into some economic fiasco by the day.

For me.. seeing Cameron on TV is like having a daly visit from the local Snake oil salesman who's only news is the constant prediction of another economic failure to come. in fact I now believe that when he comes on the TV there should now be a public heath hazard warning sign running across the bottom of every TV. as lets face it... if this was a game of chess.. the queen, bishop, rooks are all gone and the rest of the right wing pawns move only on message. its game over really. we are all left just killing time till 2015 now.

Stox 16, The British working man and woman has only ever voted with their wallets, and not for the common good, unlike the German's the French, the Greeks, who's welfare State for example is enshrined in stone, sancrosanct to these country's.

by Stox 16 Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:45 am

Ivanhoe wrote:
Ivanhoe wrote:
Stox 16 wrote:
Ivanhoe wrote:
witchfinder wrote:There is a well known saying "the tip of the iceberg"

What the general public do not understand is that there are Conservative MPs who genuinely wish to abolish the minimum wage, totaly privatise the NHS, do away with housing benefit completely, slash public spending way beyond the present cuts and abandon virtualy all employment rights.

The general public are naive, most do not understand what hard-line tory dogma is realy about, many people who voted Conservative genuinely believe that the Tories care about ordinary people.

The left of centre small "c" Conservative party prior to the Thatcher era did have a social conscience.

Thatcher changed all this when she took that party to the right.

I believe the people you mention arent aware of that change. Yes the general public are terribly naive about politics. No they dont understand what hard line Tory policies are all about.

At the last general election and due to the Thatcher/Major years, I myself was genuinly shocked and surprised that Cameron's right wingers got any votes at all. I often wonder if any of those people who voted for Cameron, wish they had'nt. ???

I have always found the British mentality to traditional politics very interesting. In fact I have read so many thoughts on why people do not understand politics and are naive about this subject. I have sort of come to the view that many people are in fear of politics as a whole plus are so busy living within a world that is easy to for them to do something about for themselves. its almost become much more easy to say there all the same or I do not really care myself as it will not effect my Small world that i can control myself. So I believe you dead right in saying... people you mention arent aware of that change. this is even more true within the younger people who know longer watch the TV News or read a good newspaper. so again your quite right....general public are terribly naive about politics or even things that effect them. Yet today we have more ways of communication and technology than I could ever dream possible as a young man. but what have we done with it? well we have turned to things and technology to help us escape the unpleasant realities of life and therefore avoiding problems that we somehow feel powerless to change. yet its clear that we could change things if we was to try and have even managed to change how things are done by what the media call social networks like facebook and co. However, its interesting to me that these act of changing things by social networks are never seen as political act by the very people who do this? when they are political acts in all but name. so maybe there is a sort new politics taking place that we do not fully yet understand. how this all works out in the long run only God will know.

as for what people who vote for Cameron now think? well that too is a interesting one. I think some people just got fed up with the last government as they do with all government in the end. yet some on the other hand who are today out of work must feel pretty sick by now i should think. others will always vote for the right wing. but I think that most people are now really questioning this government and are seeing Cameron in his true light now. I should think many are quite shocked by what they have seen so far. as its like some very bad pantomine performance that has turned the economy into a total failure and now into some economic fiasco by the day.

For me.. seeing Cameron on TV is like having a daly visit from the local Snake oil salesman who's only news is the constant prediction of another economic failure to come. in fact I now believe that when he comes on the TV there should now be a public heath hazard warning sign running across the bottom of every TV. as lets face it... if this was a game of chess.. the queen, bishop, rooks are all gone and the rest of the right wing pawns move only on message. its game over really. we are all left just killing time till 2015 now.

Stox 16, The British working man and woman has only ever voted with their wallets, and not for the common good, unlike the German's the French, the Greeks, who's welfare State for example is enshrined in stone, sancrosanct to these country's.

Yes I can go with your view Ivanhoe

by Redflag Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:47 am

Adele Carlyon wrote:Aw! What lovely pictures. The one of the man giving the girl his shoes just made me cry my eyes out. Makes you wonder why some people would want to do things to hurt others, when it can take as little as a few seconds to put a smile on someones face.

Why do the Tories want to hurt so many people who never do any harm to anyone? The disabled, the unemployed, the young, the old, the poor?

Because the right of the Tory party are arrogant Adele. They are not so different from the Nazis. As too your question "Why do the Tories want to hurt others picking on certain sections of society, IMHO they are a shower of Rude Arrogant Nasty shower of BACKSTUDS.

by **Ivan** Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:23 pm

A Most Malignant Gathering

Extracts from an article by Christian DeFeo:-

"On Monday, Osborne stated that there would be £10 billion more of cuts to the welfare budget. This is in spite of the fact that food banks in places like Bradford are struggling to meet the demands of the truly hungry; Save the Children estimates that 1 in 8 children in the UK go without at least one hot meal per day. Osborne stated that he would make the rich pay their fair share, but rejected Lib Dem proposals for mansion and wealth taxes outright. Rather, Osborne tried to turn communities in on themselves, speaking of the worker leaving his home in the early hours, only to note the drawn blinds of a neighbour who was living off of benefits. The National Fraud Authority says tax evasion costs the taxpayer 15 times more than benefit fraud, yet this is not pursued with nearly the same vigour.

Note the intent: rather than suggest that the problem might be a financial sector that became addicted to short term profits off of speculative investments, or indeed that growing inequality between rich and poor might be an issue, he suggests instead that the unemployed are the problem, and wholly responsible for their present state. We are to be told that Britain has no future unless it continues with Conservative rule: if we don’t accept deep cuts, economic stagnation, increased child poverty and a more coarse and unequal society.

Iceland eschewed coddling the bankers, they jailed them. France has chosen an alternative strategy: it’s clear that President Hollande’s priority is to balance the books with more help from the rich rather than unduly burden the poor. There are always alternatives if one has both imagination and courage. At this conference, a most malignant gathering, it was proven that the Tories have neither."

For the full article:-
http://www.whirledpeas.eu/2012/10/10/a-most-malignant-gathering/

by oftenwrong Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:43 pm

The evidence is that the Tories have come to terms with being called "The Nasty Party" and have in fact resolved to live up to it.

They do not expect poor people (Romney's 47%) to ever vote Conservative so have nothing to lose by alienating such a large segment of the Community. That's why Cameron's speech made such a strong appeal to "the aspirational" who he knows are necessary to sustain the Tory vote.

by Ivanhoe Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:00 pm

oftenwrong wrote:The evidence is that the Tories have come to terms with being called "The Nasty Party" and have in fact resolved to live up to it.

They do not expect poor people (Romney's 47%) to ever vote Conservative so have nothing to lose by alienating such a large segment of the Community. That's why Cameron's speech made such a strong appeal to "the aspirational" who he knows are necessary to sustain the Tory vote.

Yep, brilliant. Got it in one.

by Redflag Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:14 am

oftenwrong wrote:The evidence is that the Tories have come to terms with being called "The Nasty Party" and have in fact resolved to live up to it.

They do not expect poor people (Romney's 47%) to ever vote Conservative so have nothing to lose by alienating such a large segment of the Community. That's why Cameron's speech made such a strong appeal to "the aspirational" who he knows are necessary to sustain the Tory vote.

After May 2015 OW they will be known as the "The One Term Firm" does that sound better OW, I wonder if they can live with that ?

by bobby Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:41 am

Redflag said: "After May 2015 OW they will be known as the "The One Term Firm" does that sound better OW, I wonder if they can live with that"

Unfortunitely Red, come May 2015, they will have had long enough time in office to push through most of their ideological policies, many or most will be almost if not impossible to repeal.

We really need to be rid of the evil bastards, much sooner than May 2015, as many of their cuts are I believe are set to take place in April 2013 and it will take some time for many of the cuts to actually start to hit peoples wallets, then more time for people to get organized into protest groups, I fear they may well be in office till May 2015.

Britain need to act now and the quicker and the more violent the protest are could determine the length of their tenure to 10 Downing Street, but the divisions the swine have already created could make any form of worthwhile civil disturbance very unlikely. I very much doubt a £27,000 PA bus driver or an even better paid tube train driver would risk their jobs or earnings in support of people who’s income or benefits fall far beneath their’s.

Some people will abhor the thought of violence, but lets be honest, what is it other than legal Violence this nasty Coalition are imposing on the poor and the weakest of our people.

It was interesting on question time last night how the slimy git Grant Shapps nodded positively at almost all the statements made by Caroline Flint, this is something he always does in order to make himself look agreeable to the suckers who will believe his worthless gesture.

Another thing about last nights question time was the delusional Simon Hughs who spent most of his air time criticising Tory/Government policy, yet hasn’t the guts to stand up and organise a Lib-Dem exodus from the Coalition. There is now no way can they justify keeping Herr Cameron in Office, but they do.

by Ivanhoe Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:04 pm

bobby wrote:Redflag said: "After May 2015 OW they will be known as the "The One Term Firm" does that sound better OW, I wonder if they can live with that"

Unfortunitely Red, come May 2015, they will have had long enough time in office to push through most of their ideological policies, many or most will be almost if not impossible to repeal.

We really need to be rid of the evil bastards, much sooner than May 2015, as many of their cuts are I believe are set to take place in April 2013 and it will take some time for many of the cuts to actually start to hit peoples wallets, then more time for people to get organized into protest groups, I fear they may well be in office till May 2015.

Britain need to act now and the quicker and the more violent the protest are could determine the length of their tenure to 10 Downing Street, but the divisions the swine have already created could make any form of worthwhile civil disturbance very unlikely. I very much doubt a £27,000 PA bus driver or an even better paid tube train driver would risk their jobs or earnings in support of people who’s income or benefits fall far beneath their’s.

Some people will abhor the thought of violence, but lets be honest, what is it other than legal Violence this nasty Coalition are imposing on the poor and the weakest of our people.

It was interesting on question time last night how the slimy git Grant Shapps nodded positively at almost all the statements made by Caroline Flint, this is something he always does in order to make himself look agreeable to the suckers who will believe his worthless gesture.

Another thing about last nights question time was the delusional Simon Hughs who spent most of his air time criticising Tory/Government policy, yet hasn’t the guts to stand up and organise a Lib-Dem exodus from the Coalition. There is now no way can they justify keeping Herr Cameron in Office, but they do.

Bobby, any kind of protests will be ignored by the Tory lead coalition, remember these are "hard choices" the coalition are making.

And any violent protests will be quashed by the media.

The only way this coalition will collaps, is by Nick Clegg and his ministers walking away. We have a little over two years to go, wait until 18 months before the next G/E, the reality may well him home to Simon Hughes and cohorts, yet.

by oftenwrong Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:51 pm

"The only way this coalition will collaps, is by Nick Clegg and his ministers walking away."

But Turkeys don't vote for Christmas. The future of a post-coalition Liberal-Democratic Party is, shall we say, uncertain. They'll stick to the Tories like glue for the foreseeable future, because all the alternatives are worse.

by bobby Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:54 pm

Ivanhoe said: Bobby, any kind of protests will be ignored by the Tory lead coalition, remember these are "hard choices" the coalition are making.

That depends on how big and violent the protest is.

"The only way this coalition will collaps, is by Nick Clegg and his ministers walking away. We have a little over two years to go, wait until 18 months before the next G/E, the reality may well him home to Simon Hughes and cohorts, yet."

My point is Ivanhoe, we simply can not wait for almost another year. As far as Nick Clegg is concerned, he serves a purpose, and that is they (Lib-Dems will have someone to blame for their demise the Lib-Dem party could oust him almost whenever it suits them, and there is the rub, it seems to suit them to continue bolstering up the Tories, they have I believe left it too late to gain any credibility now, even if they did desert Herr Cameron and his pack of skunks, so if they wont do it, it is left to the people to act, and the sooner the better because 2015 will be too late, the irrepairable damage will be done. What we are seeing more of now are the Lib-Dems saying how they could work with Labour, but again they have left it too late, they should have been saying that two years ago, not wait for their lifeboat to spring a leak, then grasp at straws.

by bobby Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:56 pm

Spot on ow

by Redflag Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:54 pm

bobby wrote:Ivanhoe said: Bobby, any kind of protests will be ignored by the Tory lead coalition, remember these are "hard choices" the coalition are making.

That depends on how big and violent the protest is.

"The only way this coalition will collaps, is by Nick Clegg and his ministers walking away. We have a little over two years to go, wait until 18 months before the next G/E, the reality may well him home to Simon Hughes and cohorts, yet."

My point is Ivanhoe, we simply can not wait for almost another year. As far as Nick Clegg is concerned, he serves a purpose, and that is they (Lib-Dems will have someone to blame for their demise the Lib-Dem party could oust him almost whenever it suits them, and there is the rub, it seems to suit them to continue bolstering up the Tories, they have I believe left it too late to gain any credibility now, even if they did desert Herr Cameron and his pack of skunks, so if they wont do it, it is left to the people to act, and the sooner the better because 2015 will be too late, the irrepairable damage will be done. What we are seeing more of now are the Lib-Dems saying how they could work with Labour, but again they have left it too late, they should have been saying that two years ago, not wait for their lifeboat to spring a leak, then grasp at straws.

I think your quite right about Nick Clegg bobby, but all that says to the voters is he is spineless and gutless, and come April 2013 when the real cuts come into being there will be trouble from the natives, so if Clegg thinks things are bad at the moment with the public and the L/D party wait until the real hate and vitriol after these cuts he will head for the hills.

by Ivanhoe Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:18 pm

Redflag""""""",My point is Ivanhoe, we simply can not wait for almost another year. As far as Nick Clegg is concerned, he serves a purpose, and that is they (Lib-Dems will have someone to blame for their demise the Lib-Dem party could oust him almost whenever it suits them, and there is the rub, it seems to suit them to continue bolstering up the Tories, they have I believe left it too late to gain any credibility now, even if they did desert Herr Cameron and his pack of skunks, so if they wont do it, it is left to the people to act, and the sooner the better because 2015 will be too late, the irrepairable damage will be done. What we are seeing more of now are the Lib-Dems saying how they could work with Labour, but again they have left it too late, they should have been saying that two years ago, not wait for their lifeboat to spring a leak, then grasp at straws""""

My point is that protests in general up to 2015 will not move Cameron. It will take Clegg to walk away.

And the question is, will he ?, and when ?

by oftenwrong Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:27 pm

It will take Clegg to walk away.

And the question is, will he ?, and when ?

No.

by Tosh Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:05 pm

The general public are naive, most do not understand what hard-line tory dogma is realy about, many people who voted Conservative genuinely believe that the Tories care about ordinary people..

I have never read such condascending tripe in all my days, just because the general public does not share your crazed views they must be naive ??

Maybe they are just not crazy.

by Ivanhoe Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:10 pm

""""I have never read such condascending tripe in all my days""""

Seriously Tosh, you should try re-reading your own postings sometime.

by Tosh Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:38 pm

Seriously Tosh, you should try re-reading your own postings sometime..

Don't be so naive.

by Tosh Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:43 pm

It is obvious the rest of this decade will change our planet forever, there be trouble at mill, and we must be prepared for the worst.

Slash and burn before the Great Depression inevitablty arrives, the developed world is now dragging the developing world into a deflationary spiral that will freeze economies like an ice age.

Sell everything and buy gold.

by Ivanhoe Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:46 pm

I'm not being naive. But you clearly are.

by Tosh Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:00 pm

I'm not being naive. But you clearly are..

There is nothing clear about socialism(spit), its all archaic rhetoric from a Ripping Yarns sketch.

You had your battle, the bums lost, time to get a job.

by Adele Carlyon Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:41 pm

Tosh wrote:
The general public are naive, most do not understand what hard-line tory dogma is realy about, many people who voted Conservative genuinely believe that the Tories care about ordinary people..

I have never read such condascending tripe in all my days, just because the general public does not share your crazed views they must be naive ??

Maybe they are just not crazy.

Or maybe they're just self centred, selfish spawns of Thatcher!

Clegg won't jump ship because he hasn't got the balls. I listened live to his radio 5 live Q&A today, and he has no shame either! The damage they're doing won't be able to be undone before too long.

by Tosh Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:50 pm

Or maybe they're just self centred, selfish spawns of Thatcher!

If the majority are self centred and selfish, then you must accept this in a democracy and go and live in a socialist country that works, oh sorry, there isn't one.

by Ivanhoe Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:52 pm

Tosh wrote:
Or maybe they're just self centred, selfish spawns of Thatcher!

If the majority are self centred and selfish, then you must accept this in a democracy and go and live in a socialist country that works, oh sorry, there isn't one.

There isnt a right wing country that works, either Tosh. In Reagans America which Obama is trying to sort out, the poor have food stamps, while we under Thatcher, Blair, Brown, and now Cameron, are opening food backs because people cant afford to buy food.

This in the 21st century. You couldnt make it up.

by Tosh Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:59 pm

while we under Thatcher, Blair, Brown, and now Cameron, are opening food backs because people cant afford to buy food.

Food banks are for homeless people and welfare claimants who spend their benefits on anything but food, you need to find out what a citizen gets in this country to spend on food and then come back with your ludicrous claims.

I did the research, stop being lazy and listening to socialist propaganda.

by Ivanhoe Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:11 pm

Tosh wrote:
while we under Thatcher, Blair, Brown, and now Cameron, are opening food backs because people cant afford to buy food.

Food banks are for homeless people and welfare claimants who spend their benefits on anything but food, you need to find out what a citizen gets in this country to spend on food and then come back with your ludicrous claims.

I did the research, stop being lazy and listening to socialist propaganda.

I have a friend in the USA, he is an accountant and a democrat awaiting an Obama victory soon. He is aware of food stamps in America, ive told him about the food banks in Britain.

Welcome to victorianised systems.

by oftenwrong Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:13 pm

"Sometimes I can believe up to six impossible things before breakfast!"

The Red Queen. "Alice"

by sickchip Sat Oct 13, 2012 2:09 am

Tosh wrote:
Or maybe they're just self centred, selfish spawns of Thatcher!

If the majority are self centred and selfish, then you must accept this in a democracy and go and live in a socialist country that works, oh sorry, there isn't one.

....can you name a capitilist country that is working? By the way, when I say working - I mean for the benefit of the whole population.

You clearly adhere to a world of 'dog eat dog', luck of birth, and obviously don't have any empathy with the 'struggling', and truly striving classes - so because you believe, misguidedly, that those on benefit are stealing your money - does that mean you imagine plunging people further into poverty is going to provide some sort of 'kick up the arse' that spurs them into suddenly turning their lives around and realising they are all perfectly capable of becoming successful wealthy individuals? Or - are you just another sadistic, out of touch tory bully who enjoys kicking people when they're down?

I note that you make claims, on another thread here, that your beloved Tories are equally as altruistic as those of other persuasions.

Look around, tosh. The proof is there to see. They care not one iota; and I suspect you actually feel ever so slightly guilty about apparently supporting such a bunch of sadistic bastards, and perhaps enjoy playing 'devils advocate'. I actually (and actually does not, in this instance, tell lies) feel a little sorry for you and your predicament with regards to your guilt ridden allegiance to a party of upper class gangsters.

Prove capitilism is working for the benefit of us all if you can. Or perhaps you imagine society does not exist - how primal, and uncivilised, the tory animal appears in their twisted logic.

by Redflag Sat Oct 13, 2012 9:30 am

Tosh wrote:
while we under Thatcher, Blair, Brown, and now Cameron, are opening food backs because people cant afford to buy food.

Food banks are for homeless people and welfare claimants who spend their benefits on anything but food, you need to find out what a citizen gets in this country to spend on food and then come back with your ludicrous claims.

I did the research, stop being lazy and listening to socialist propaganda.

Food banks only for the homeless ! NO the people that are having to go to food banks are low paid workers and the ones that are forced to work part-time because there is no full-time jobs, food banks used to be for the people on the streets not any more go stand outside one (you must have one near you) and see the families turning up for there food parcels. If you think that you can afford to drink on Dole money you are BADLY mistaken, by what you have said YOU have never had to live off Unemployment benefit ( you should try it its great fun) lol!

by oftenwrong Sat Oct 13, 2012 10:45 am

People with a strong sense of "entitlement" are likely to claim Unemployment benefit or any other benefit, even if they don't actually need the cash.

by Ivanhoe Sat Oct 13, 2012 11:54 am

oftenwrong wrote:People with a strong sense of "entitlement" are likely to claim Unemployment benefit or any other benefit, even if they don't actually need the cash.

Now that's what I call a true 21st century adult statement!

by Shirina Sat Oct 13, 2012 5:28 pm

It's been my experience that those who scream the loudest about welfare are people who don't need the cash, either. They're usually older with a nice house (usually paid-off), upper middle class salary, perfect children with high end educations -- who are themselves successful, they are almost always fit and healthy, they dabble in stocks and bonds, own a thriving small business, and who retired between the ages of 45-60. If you ask them, which I often do, one would think that they sold their souls to the devil given how charmed their lives are.

And their lives are charmed despite the fact that their taxes help pay for welfare benefits.

Now, If I had such a life, I would be counting my blessings ... again, and again, and again. The absolute LAST thing I'd be doing, as I take yet another month-long vacation in the Caribbean, is worrying about what the poor have and whether someone is "stealing" welfare benefits. When your life is as charmed as theirs often are, this insatiable need to hate on the poor is irrational; when you have all of that, wanting even more at the expense of the hungry is the true definition of "entitled." They don't call it a "privileged" lifestyle for no reason whatsoever. I can only assume that "privileged" means having the privilege to disparage the lower classes because, after all, how else would these people obtain their sense of superiority without someone beneath them?

by methought Sat Oct 13, 2012 5:59 pm

Social mobility was a dream of the sixties and seventies. Today, you're right Ivan, it's about encouraging everyone to fight for the scraps from the Tory high table, because the haves are making off with the spoils while the wannabe workers have to compete with workers in India and China who will work 16 hours for 10p to provide us with crap furniture from pulped illegally logged huge mahogany trees from the Amazon rainforests. My MDF desk is extremely heavy...

Service industries are going to the wall because the mega-rich have accountants who can do mathematical gymnastics that the rest of us don't understand, to allow them to keep what would otherwise be taxable.

It all started long ago with a famous B movie star who sold an American Dream of easy credit to the world: cue enter the World Bank with resources to provide (not quite) infinite debt to impoverished 3rd world countries, who now pay back with the total of all their natural resources, and then suckers, the rest of us, one and nearly all, with our high mortgages, credit card debts, higher education debts, etc etc.

So - where's the new idea then?

by oftenwrong Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:32 pm

Shirina wrote:It's been my experience that those who scream the loudest about welfare are people who don't need the cash, either....

....worrying about what the poor have and whether someone is "stealing" welfare benefits....

The "comfortably off" usually have two major questions that worry them constantly,

1. How much is "enough"? and

2. Is being poor contagious?

by Redflag Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:11 pm

oftenwrong wrote:
Shirina wrote:It's been my experience that those who scream the loudest about welfare are people who don't need the cash, either....

....worrying about what the poor have and whether someone is "stealing" welfare benefits....

The "comfortably off" usually have two major questions that worry them constantly,

1. How much is "enough"? and

2. Is being poor contagious?

I wish being poor was contagious then we could make sure that Scam.er..on and his shower of dick heads caught a real bad dose of it, that would be fun to watch we could even sell tickets to watch would you buy a ticket OW?

by oftenwrong Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:01 pm

I think I would prefer to have the ticket-sales concession if that's still available. Red.

by Redflag Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:08 am

Ivanhoe wrote:
Tosh wrote:
while we under Thatcher, Blair, Brown, and now Cameron, are opening food backs because people cant afford to buy food.

Food banks are for homeless people and welfare claimants who spend their benefits on anything but food, you need to find out what a citizen gets in this country to spend on food and then come back with your ludicrous claims.

I did the research, stop being lazy and listening to socialist propaganda.

I have a friend in the USA, he is an accountant and a democrat awaiting an Obama victory soon. He is aware of food stamps in America, ive told him about the food banks in Britain.

Welcome to victorianised systems.

Ivanhoe you do not have to go as far as the U.S.A. to see right wing gov'ts failing, take a look at the right wing gov'ts of Europe that have failed there country or got there country into all the brown stuff with there policies.

by oftenwrong Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:55 am

One thing that the Coalition has not been able to save is the British end of the Ford Motor Company, which had been here for about a hundred years.
So much for Dave standing shoulder-to-shoulder with The Whitehouse.

Far from being all in it together, we're increasingly "on our own".

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