Issues of morality shut Christians up

by Greatest I am Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:47 pm

Issues of morality shuts Christians up.

I know I have done well in an O. P. when Christians run from a discussion.

I wrote these two posts and got almost no response. Not a usual thing for my posts. This tells me that I hit the nail right on the head and Christians have no apologetics to refute my claim.

==========================

If you accept this as universal morality, you will reject God.

http://blog.ted.com/2008/09/17/the_real_differ/

God does not follow the first rule at all.

The bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or sin.

This shows that what many thinks is our number one moral value was completely ignored by God.

Is God immoral or has man gotten morality wrong?

If God was right, then are we to believe that fathers are to bury their children instead of the way people think in that children should bury their parents?

John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.”

On earth as it is in heaven.

If you had God’s power to set the conditions for atonement, would you step up yourself or would you send your child to die?

=============================

God to Jesus. I just condemned the human race. Now go die to save them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoHP-f-_F9U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ott1...eature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqP_f...eature=related

I think that the notion that punishing the innocent instead of the guilty perpetrator is immoral. Be it a willing sacrifice as some believe with Jesus or unwilling victim.

I also think that God, who has a plethora of other options, would have come up with a moral way instead of an immoral and barbaric human sacrifice.

I agree with scriptures say that we are all responsible for our own righteousness as well as our own iniquity and that God cannot be bribed by sacrifice.

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Psalm 49:7
None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

I believe as I do because I believe that the first rule of morality is harm/care of children.

http://blog.ted.com/2008/09/17/the_real_differ/

Do you agree that the notion of substitutionary atonement is immoral and that God’s first principle of morality is hare/harm and that this would prevent him from demanding the death of his son?

==============================

This lack of opposition to the premise given tells me that Christians may actually be more moral than what I give them credit for. They do not walk their talk in these cases and that is a plus.

Seems Christians actually recognize good morals even if they do not preach them.
I thank Christians for confirming my view that they are just following tradition, dogma and culture while not really following their God. Thank God for that. Any sane man would reject the bible God.

Regards
DL

by trevorw2539 Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:10 am

Never in the field of human conflict has so much been owed by so many to so few.

Greater love hath no man than this. That a man lay down his life for his friends.

Morality (from the Latin moralitas "manner, character, proper behavior") is the differentiation of intentions, decisions, and actions between those that are good (or right) and those that are bad (or wrong). A moral code is a system of morality (according to a particular philosophy, religion, culture, etc.) and a moral is any one practice or teaching within a moral code. The adjective moral is synonymous with "good" or "right." Immorality is the active opposition to morality (i.e. good or right), while amorality is variously defined as an unawareness of, indifference toward, or disbelief in any set of moral standards or principles.[1][2][3][4] An example of a moral code is the Golden Rule which states that, "One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself."[5]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality

Perhaps your morality is based on your humanity. 'Gods' on his superior knowledge and intelligence.

Regards.

by Greatest I am Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:00 am

Greater love hath no man than this. That a man lay down his life for his friends.

I like this.

Like the soldier falling on a grenade to save his friends.

The problem in the case of Jesus, God himself throws the grenade into the fox hole and then has Jesus lay on it.

If you are going to make a scenario, make it full and not just half in order to make your point that has nothing to do with the issue.

Regards
DL

by ROB Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:05 am

Greatest I am wrote:
Greater love hath no man than this. That a man lay down his life for his friends.

Greek Bible, Y’shua bar Yosef, Y’shua Moshiach:

“As the Father has loved me, I have also loved you; abide in my love. If you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. These things I have spoken unto you to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.”

“This is my commandment, that you love one another, as I have loved you.”

“Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do whatsoever I command you. Henceforth I no longer call you servants, for the servant knows not what his master is does; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.”

John 15:9-15

__________________________________________________________________________________________

Greatest I am wrote:
The problem in the case of Jesus, God himself throws the grenade into the fox hole and then has Jesus lay on it.

Greek Bible, Y’shua bar Yosef, Y’shua Moshiach:

“Let not your heart be troubled: you believe in God, believe also in me.”

“In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there you may be also. And you know the way where I am going.”

Thomas said unto him, “Lord, we know not where you are going, and how can we know the way?how ” Jesus *said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes unto the Father but by me.”

John 14:1-6

Greek Bible, Y’shua bar Yosef, Y’shua Moshiach:

And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as you will.”

Matthew 26:39

Greek Bible, Y’shua bar Yosef, Y’shua Moshiach:

When Jesus had spoken these words, he went forth with his disciples over the ravine of the Kidron, where there was a garden, in which he entered with his disciples. Now Judas also, who was betraying him, knew the place, for Jesus had often met there with his disciples. Judas then, having received a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, came there with lanterns and torches and weapons.

Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, “Whom do you seek?” They answered him, “Jesus of Nazareth.”

Jesus said unto to them, “I am he.” As soon as he had said unto them, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground.

Then asked he them again, “Whom do you seek?” And they said, “Jesus of Nazareth.”

Jesus answered, “I have told you that I am he; so if you seek me, let these go their way,” to fulfill the word which he spoke, “Of those whom you have given me I lost not one.”

Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest’s servant, and cut off his right ear. Then Jesus said to Peter, “Put the sword into the sheath; the cup which my Father has given me, shall I not drink it?”

John 18:1-11

Ten Thousand Angels - video

https://www.youtube.com/v/pbw4aoILXxI

Greek Bible:

By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

1 John 4:9

by trevorw2539 Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:17 am

Greatest quote.

If you are going to make a scenario, make it full and not just half in order to make your point that has nothing to do with the issue.

I make no scenario. That's yours.

And the point is this:

Perhaps your morality is based on your humanity. 'Gods' on his superior knowledge and intelligence.

Strange that you pick the quote from the Bible, though I made no direct reference to the Christian religion, and left Churchill's quote out, and the quote from Wiki.

by Greatest I am Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:39 pm

God's superior knowledge and intelligence sure is strange if the best law he can come up with is human sacrifice and having his own son murdered.
Sounds more like an idiot.

You think God brightfor this do you?

Regards
DL

by Greatest I am Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:40 pm

RockOnBrother wrote:[]

Thumpers are boring.
Anytime you wish to speak, I am here to listen.

Regards
DL

by trevorw2539 Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:07 pm

Greatest quote. You think God brightfor this do you?

Again you presume.

I merely point out that your morality is based on your humanity. Would you expect an alein race to accept or understand your morals, or you theirs, if they ever came to earth.

Come to that. Can you accept the morality of a 10 year old girl being 'married' to a 20 year old man as some societies do.

I do not know the mind of 'God' as you seem to.

'God to Jesus. I just condemned the human race. Now go die to save them.'

by ROB Fri Jun 29, 2012 4:34 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
RockOnBrother wrote:
[]¹

RockOnBrother did not post this; RockOnBrother posted the following quotes from English translations of the Greek Bible.

RockOnBrother wrote:
Greek Bible, Y’shua bar Yosef, Y’shua Moshiach:

“As the Father has loved me, I have also loved you; abide in my love. If you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. These things I have spoken unto you to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.”

“This is my commandment, that you love one another, as I have loved you.”

“Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do whatsoever I command you. Henceforth I no longer call you servants, for the servant knows not what his master is does; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.”

John 15:9-15
Greek Bible, Y’shua bar Yosef, Y’shua Moshiach:

“Let not your heart be troubled: you believe in God, believe also in me.”

“In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there you may be also. And you know the way where I am going.”

Thomas said unto him, “Lord, we know not where you are going, and how can we know the way?” Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes unto the Father but by me.”

John 14:1-6
Greek Bible, Y’shua bar Yosef, Y’shua Moshiach:

And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as you will.”

Matthew 26:39
Greek Bible, Y’shua bar Yosef, Y’shua Moshiach:

When Jesus had spoken these words, he went forth with his disciples over the ravine of the Kidron, where there was a garden, in which he entered with his disciples. Now Judas also, who was betraying him, knew the place, for Jesus had often met there with his disciples. Judas then, having received a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, came there with lanterns and torches and weapons.

Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, “Whom do you seek?” They answered him, “Jesus of Nazareth.”

Jesus said unto to them, “I am he.” As soon as he had said unto them, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground.

Then asked he them again, “Whom do you seek?” And they said, “Jesus of Nazareth.”

Jesus answered, “I have told you that I am he; so if you seek me, let these go their way,” to fulfill the word which he spoke, “Of those whom you have given Me I lost not one.”

Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it and struck the high priest’s servant, and cut off his right ear; and the servant’s name was Malchus. Then Jesus said to Peter, “Put the sword into the sheath; the cup which my Father has given me, shall I not drink it?”

John 18:1-11

Ten Thousand Angels - video

https://www.youtube.com/v/pbw4aoILXxI

Greek Bible:

By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

1 John 4:9

Greatest I am wrote:
Thumpers are boring.

All of the Bambi characters are boring.

Greatest I am wrote:
Anytime you wish to speak, I am here to listen.

Insofar as you’ve demonstrated through your posts hereon, including your post of 29 June 2012 at 14:40, to which I am responding, you are never “here to listen.”

by Greatest I am Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:13 pm

Then have the good manners to ignore me.
That should be part of your religion.

Regards
DL

by **Ivan** Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:30 pm

The whole point of a forum is not to ignore people and their posts, but to reply to them. But what do I know, as I don't have any religion?

Regards,
IMW

by Greatest I am Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:09 pm

Ivan wrote:The whole point of a forum is not to ignore people and their posts, but to reply to them. But what do I know, as I don't have any religion?

Regards,
IMW

You are correct.

How does one reply to someone's words who has been dead for 3,000 years? Will he hear?
How does one get a rebuttal?

Regards
DL

by trevorw2539 Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:07 pm

How does one reply to someone's words who has been dead for 3,000 years? Will he hear?
How does one get a rebuttal?

Jesus 'died' 2000 years ago. Moses 'died' about about 3500. According to Neitzche -'God is dead'. According to God -'Nietzche is dead'. The only obit. I can't find is 'God's' Smile

by oftenwrong Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:48 pm

Rumours of God's demise are greatly exaggerated.

by Greatest I am Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:49 pm

trevorw2539 wrote:How does one reply to someone's words who has been dead for 3,000 years? Will he hear?
How does one get a rebuttal?

Jesus 'died' 2000 years ago. Moses 'died' about about 3500. According to Neitzche -'God is dead'. According to God -'Nietzche is dead'. The only obit. I can't find is 'God's'

Did you find his birth certificate?

Regards
DL

by Greatest I am Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:50 pm

oftenwrong wrote:Rumours of God's demise are greatly exaggerated.

Then let God dare show his face. The Haig wants to chat with him about his genocide of mankind.

Regards
DL

by ROB Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:09 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Then have the good manners to ignore me.

My home training, received from my parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, and older siblings/cousins, has taught me that acknowledging other folks is mannerly while ignoring other folks is not mannerly.

I shall continue to “have… good manners” by continuing to “mind my manners”, as taught throughout my cognizant lifetime by my parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, and older siblings/cousins.

Greatest I am wrote:
That should be part of your religion.

What “should” or “should” not be “part of [my] religion” is neither your call nor your business.

by trevorw2539 Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:48 pm

Did you find his birth certificate?

Unfortunately no. I wasn't sure which year BC I'm supposed to look. Smile

But then spiritual beings aren't born like humans. There's no giving in marriage in heaven.

by astra Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:05 pm

Did you find his birth certificate?

Not in Ancestry.com either

by ROB Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:44 am

Greatest I am wrote:
Then let God dare show his face. The Haig wants to chat with him about his genocide of mankind.

Hebrew Bible - Job affirms his righteousness and calls out YHVH Elohim (in part):

Then Job continued his discourse and said, “As God lives, who has taken away my right, and the Almighty, who has embittered my soul, for as long as life is in me, and the breath of God is in my nostrils, my lips certainly will not speak unjustly, nor will my tongue mutter deceit.”

“Far be it from me that I should declare you right; till I die I will not put away my integrity from me. I hold fast my righteousness and will not let it go. My heart does not reproach any of my days.”

Job 27:1-6

Hebrew Bible – YHVH Elohim questions Job (in part):

Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind and said, “Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?”

“Now gird up your loins like a man, and I will ask you, and you instruct me!”

“Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding!”

“Who set its measurements? Since you know. Or who stretched the line on it? On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone?”

“Have you ever in your life commanded the morning, and caused the dawn to know its place?

“Have you entered into the springs of the sea, or walked in the recesses of the deep?”

“Have the gates of death been revealed to you? Have you understood the expanse of the earth? Tell me, if you know all this.”

“Where is the way to the dwelling of light? And darkness, where is its place, that you may take it to its territory, and that you may discern the paths to its home?”

“You know, for you were born then, and the number of your days is great!”

Job 38:1-6, 12, 16-21

by True Blue Sun Jul 15, 2012 5:27 am

The OP confuses God's morality with the Morality God imparted upon humans.

From a Christian perspective, Christians cannot, nor are they expected, to understand the moral imperatives underpinning a Supernatural Being who exists outside of Nature.

Christians are expected to understand and engage Christ's morality... which, for the second commandment alone, is a simple yet powerful morality as relevant today as it was when it was conceived of.

Mark 12:28-31 wrote:
28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”

29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[a] 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[b] 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[c] There is no commandment greater than these.”

by oftenwrong Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:59 pm

As we suspected. "Do as Daddy says."

by True Blue Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:13 pm

oftenwrong wrote:As we suspected. "Do as Daddy says."

I have no idea what you intend by that comment.

by astra Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:05 pm

"Do as Daddy says."

He's not home yet Ma!

by Greatest I am Sun Jul 15, 2012 9:15 pm

True Blue wrote:The OP confuses God's morality with the Morality God imparted upon humans.

From a Christian perspective, Christians cannot, nor are they expected, to understand the moral imperatives underpinning a Supernatural Being who exists outside of Nature.

Christians are expected to understand and engage Christ's morality... which, for the second commandment alone, is a simple yet powerful morality as relevant today as it was when it was conceived of.

Mark 12:28-31 wrote:
28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”

29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[a] 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[b] 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[c] There is no commandment greater than these.”

Was Jesus saying that the first and second commandment given by God to Moses should be ignored for his new ones?

Was Jesus indicating that God was wrong or had miss-written his original 10?

Regards
DL

by True Blue Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:10 am

Greatest I am wrote:
True Blue wrote:The OP confuses God's morality with the Morality God imparted upon humans.

From a Christian perspective, Christians cannot, nor are they expected, to understand the moral imperatives underpinning a Supernatural Being who exists outside of Nature.

Christians are expected to understand and engage Christ's morality... which, for the second commandment alone, is a simple yet powerful morality as relevant today as it was when it was conceived of.

Mark 12:28-31 wrote:
28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”

29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[a] 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[b] 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[c] There is no commandment greater than these.”

Was Jesus saying that the first and second commandment given by God to Moses should be ignored for his new ones?

Was Jesus indicating that God was wrong or had miss-written his original 10?

Regards
DL

DL the significance of your questions are lost on me. You see, I thought, and with good cause mind you, that you wanted to discuss Christian Morality, not Jewish Morality. The two moralities are different, given at different times of social evolution and therefore intended to achieve different results.

Christian Morality highlights two of the greatest commandments as determined by Jesus, and represent a summary of the most important laws of the Jewish Tradition at a time when Judaism was civilizing. Jewish Morality is more than the mere 10 commandments you refer to, covering a range of behaviors associated with everyday communal living of the kind found in burgeoning agricultural societies.

There is nothing in the quote above that would suggest Jesus is usurping the moral integrity of God the Father of Jews.

So again... What is the point of your questions?

by Greatest I am Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:04 pm

You do not need the significance of a question to answer it.

The point is that mankind has a universal morality and if you use the big 10 then God's morality does not match nor is it as well defined as man's.

http://blog.ted.com/2008/09/17/the_real_differ/

Note how man centers his morality on others while God and Jesus center their morality on themselves and is self-serving.

You are right that Jewish morality and Christian morality do not match.

Christians will try to profit from the murder of an innocent Jesus while Jews do not try to profit from human sacrifice.

Regards
DL

by polyglide Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:54 am

If there is a universal morality I would like to know what it is based on.

As the world is at the present time there are very few standards of any kind being met, you do not have to believe in any kind of religion to be aware that there must be rules and standards if society is to function in any reasonable manner.

There is no better way in which society could benifit than to adopt the teaching of Jesus even if you do not believe.

by Greatest I am Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:42 pm

polyglide wrote:If there is a universal morality I would like to know what it is based on.

As the world is at the present time there are very few standards of any kind being met, you do not have to believe in any kind of religion to be aware that there must be rules and standards if society is to function in any reasonable manner.

There is no better way in which society could benifit than to adopt the teaching of Jesus even if you do not believe.

So we should embrace unworkable rhetoric as our guide. Really?

Take Jesus' divorce law for instance. Let no man put asunder.

Would you tell a wife that is under constant abuse that she cannot divorce?
I hope not.
If you or Jesus did, then prick is the name that comes to mind.

If you think his no divorce policy is good then defend the un-defendable.

I hope you can open your mind enough to realize that most of what Jesus taught is not workable in this world.

Further, if you are talking Jesus as part of the Trinity, then he would be a genocidal maniac who indicates that it is good to punish the innocent and not the guilty by doing so to his son. That is sick.

Regards
DL

by Shirina Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:25 pm

As the world is at the present time there are very few standards of any kind being met

Now, I know those who believe in a more apocalyptic version of Christianity are wont to convince everyone that the world is going to hell in a hand basket. After all, they're all on the edge of their chairs perpetually waiting for Jesus's return. But is that a true assessment of our world today? Well, no ...

JAIPUR: We live in violent, turbulent times-perhaps the most dangerous in human history, right? Wrong. At least that's what Steven Pinker would argue. Flying in the face of conventional wisdom, the Harvard professor of cognitive psychology and author of 'The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined' on Saturday held a packed audience at the Jaipur Literary Festival spellbound with his argument that, in fact, we have the good fortune to be living in the most peaceful period in human history.

LINK

The economic crisis was supposed to increase violence around the world. The truth is that we are now living in one of the most peaceful periods since war first arose 10 or 12 millennia ago. The relative calm of our era, say scientists who study warfare in history and even prehistory, belies the popular, pessimistic notion that war is so deeply rooted in our nature that we can never abolish it. In fact, war seems to be a largely cultural phenomenon, which culture is now helping us eradicate. Some scholars now even cautiously speculate that the era of traditional war—fought by two uniformed, state-sponsored armies—might be drawing to a close. "War could be on the verge of ceasing to exist as a substantial phenomenon," says John Mueller, a political scientist at Ohio State University.

LINK

The last time the crime rate for serious crime – murder, rape, robbery, assault – fell to these levels, gasoline cost 29 cents a gallon and the average income for a working American was $5,807.

That was 1963.

In the past 20 years, for instance, the murder rate in the United States has dropped by almost half, from 9.8 per 100,000 people in 1991 to 5.0 in 2009. Meanwhile, robberies were down 10 percent in 2010 from the year before and 8 percent in 2009. The declines are not just a blip, say criminologists. Rather, they are the result of a host of changes that have fundamentally reversed the high-crime trends of the 1980s. And these changes have taken hold to such a degree that the drop in crime continued despite the recent recession.

Because the pattern "transcends cities and US regions, we can safely say crime is down," says James Alan Fox, a criminologist at Northeastern University in Boston. "We are indeed a safer nation than 20 years ago."

The data point to a persistent perception gap among Americans. Despite strong evidence of crime dropping over recent decades, the public sees the reverse. "Recent Gallup polls have found that citizens overwhelmingly feel crime is going up even though it is not," says Professor Fox. "This is because of the growth of crime shows and the way that TV spotlights the emotional. One case of a random, horrific shooting shown repeatedly on TV has more visceral effect than all the statistics printed in a newspaper."

LINK

As I said, when one of the matras of the modern media is, "If it bleeds, it leads," it is unsurprising to learn that the average person thinks the world is at its lowest point ever. Bombarded as we are by negativity on a daily basis, it stands to reason that people would get this mistaken impression. Couple that with the deep need of apocalyptic Christians for the Rapture to take place, they are quick to point toward every random act of violence or brush fire war as proof positive that Jesus has entered our solar system even as we speak. So much for Biblical prophecy, then, as Christians try to pound that proverbial square peg into that equally proverbial round hole. The idea that "wars and rumors of war" are happening all over the world is a falsehood.

by True Blue Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:43 pm

Greatest I am wrote:The point is that mankind has a universal morality...

And what is that universal morality?

and if you use the big 10 then God's morality does not match nor is it as well defined as man's.

Compared to what? You haven't actually explained the universal morality for which God's morality is no match.

Note how man centers his morality on others while God and Jesus center their morality on themselves and is self-serving.

I disagree. I think that one of humanity's traits is the will to venerate greatness. You see it everywhere in history and contemporary society. In Sports, with a capital S, the veneration of greatness is well expressed. So too it is well expressed in Award Nights of all kinds from all levels of society.

Now, if this will to venerate greatness finds expression in religion and spirituality, is it fair to accuse god of being self serving or is it better to see it for what it is, yet another example of that trait we are discussing.

by Shirina Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:32 am

And what is that universal morality?

Every organized society have laws which forbid such things as murder, theft, assault, and numerous others. Nowhere, from the most advanced nation-state to the most primitive tribal culture allows people to murder and steal at will. This type of morality is, in fact, universal. While yes, it is true that some civilizations sanctioned murder - such as the Aztecs - even these societies did not allow people to merely slaughter each other willy nilly. All of these people, indeed all humans, have recognized for countless centuries that such behavior is wrong ... which is precisely why laws and customs were created to forbid it.

is it fair to accuse god of being self serving or is it better to see it for what it is, yet another example of that trait we are discussing.

I would argue that humans only see greatness in those who entertain us. Whether they are gladiators in the Coliseum or a sports stars in Wembley Stadum, they are the ones who soak up our veneration while the truly great people are rarely remarked upon outside of their given professional communities. Only after death, when their works become valuable, does the impact of greatness ever wash over artists and novelists. Shakespeare was never regarded as "great" by his contemporaries and Einstein was just another scientist that few people outside of the field of science knew existed. But those who entertain - they are the great ones in Western society, and I'm not convinced that the accolade of "great" can be truly given to an actor or an Olympic athlete.

But more to the point, we are not commanded by Einstein or Shakespeare to venerate him. We do so voluntarily. Yet God demands our veneration and threatens those who do not with eternal hellfire. That is, in fact, self-serving, and I have said many times that I do not believe for a nanosecond that a truly loving and omnipotent God would ever demand our love and veneration. Throughout the Bible, we are commanded to worship God, to love God, and to put God before everything else - including our own children! The narcissism and egocentricity of God cannot be denied.

Let us not forget the very first commandment: Thou shalt have no other gods before me!

Those who we consider "great" in our society do not nominate themselves for their awards. No soldier has ever received the Medal of Honor or the Victoria Cross by demanding it. No actor has ever won an Oscar by getting up in front of the microphone and declaring, "You MUST love me and give me that award or I will punish you all!" We like our heroes to be meek, modest, even a bit self-effacing. We like confidence, not arrogance, and very few people would respond well to heroes demanding that we hero-worship them. Roman emperors who declared themselves living gods usually found themselves dangling from swords wielded by their own Praetorian Guard.

God has always been given a free pass for his arrogance and demands because, well, God is God - or so the believers say. I have never felt that the gods of organized religion were anything other than human fabrications with human fingerprints all over their concepts. God's behavior in the Old Testament sounds precisely like how human beings in the Bronze Age would expect a God to behave: Perpetually angry, wrathful, throwing around natural disasters and death sentences, domineering, demanding, and extremely egocentric. The God of the OT is little better than all of the gods who came before him. The only real difference is monotheism rather than polytheism. Otherwise, God could just as well be Zeus.

People in the Bronze Age expected their gods to be self-serving, vain, and arrogant. Wouldn't you be if you were a god? It is apparent that people made God in Man's image, not the other way around. You can tell that the OT God was modeled after previous gods - and they, in turn, were modeled after power-mad people, tribal warlords, chieftains, and kings who believed themselves to be all-powerful.

by polyglide Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:16 am

You miss the whole point, if people followed Jesus there would be no one doing wrong to anyone else

Just what planet do you think you are on Shirina?

There is not one place on earth that is not presently being threatened in one way or another, just because a direct threat is not being made does not mean that it does not exist according to the prevailing circumstances.

Two countries fighting each other can pose a problem for the world never mind themselves

Iran, Syria and many others being prime examples. [ North Korea} etc.

Along with a complete breakdown of morality in almost all countries.

So come on Shirina take a reality check.

by Shirina Sat Jul 28, 2012 4:40 pm

Along with a complete breakdown of morality in almost all countries.

Just what "morality" are you referring to? The Christo-fascism type or the genuine "love they neighbor" type?

by True Blue Sun Jul 29, 2012 2:05 am

Shirina wrote:
And what is that universal morality?
Every organized society have laws which forbid such things as murder, theft, assault, and numerous others. Nowhere, from the most advanced nation-state to the most primitive tribal culture allows people to murder and steal at will. This type of morality is, in fact, universal.

Where does Capital Punishment fit into this seemingly picture perfect universal morality? (This is relevant because not all nations appeal to legal murder as a mechanism of Justice.) And war? (Particularly where those engaged in War refuse to be recognised by the War Crimes Tribunal) And terrorism? (Which I note is still woefully defined yet liberally used against others as a term of derision and a justification to divide and conquer.)

If you can predict the answers to those question as being troublesome for any definition of universal morality which includes murder, then equally, you must appreciate that there is no such reality that includes universal morality.

is it fair to accuse god of being self serving or is it better to see it for what it is, yet another example of that trait we are discussing.
I would argue that humans only see greatness in those who entertain us.

And I think that your statement and the justifications used to substantiate same, is you reflecting upon your social situation which is mainstream. If you had the opportunity to be a part of the veneration expressed at the Ballet, Theatre, Symphony, Opera... and even to a lesser extent at Lecture Halls. Heck, if you had the opportunity to listen to an inspiring public speaker sent into an org to rally the troups, you would see the impact on many which can lead to veneration of that person. Pop stars are venerated by their fan base. Tragically, even criminals of great notoriety are adored by a very few.

It is a part of our nature to look up to exceptional people. And if the mainstream love sport more than most other things then there is where you will find exceptional sports people venerated. It is no great leap of understanding to see how this trait can be expressed in the superhuman context. It does not matter that with some gods we can empathize, because of their human-like qualities, yet others kept at an awe filled distance because they are more removed from the human experience. It doesn't matter because they are venerated for their god-like qualities and god-like promises to humanity. Zeus was venerated for his amazing powers and care taker attitude towards humans. Christ is venerated for his amazing power, the power of his promises and care taker attitude towards humans.

But more to the point, we are not commanded by Einstein or Shakespeare to venerate him. We do so voluntarily. Yet God demands our veneration and threatens those who do not with eternal hellfire.

Apparently, according to biblical texts, the gods are in competition with one another, so it pays to put the word out that your hood is YOURS! Of course it could well be argued though archaeology and history that there is indeed evidence of certain tribes warring with other tribes of different gods. This is a theme of humanity through out the ages, including biblical times. So we can say that God demands our veneration or we could say that Tribal Leaders use their communal Gods to ensure social unity and the Leaders power.

Let us not forget the very first commandment: Thou shalt have no other gods before me!

Yes, even the Jewish biblical texts acknowledge the existence of other gods. Therefore, see above.

by Greatest I am Sun Jul 29, 2012 2:50 pm

True Blue wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:The point is that mankind has a universal morality...

And what is that universal morality?

http://blog.ted.com/2008/09/17/the_real_differ/

and if you use the big 10 then God's morality does not match nor is it as well defined as man's.

Compared to what? You haven't actually explained the universal morality for which God's morality is no match.

Simple friend. Morality is directed at others and not the self. God is all into himself.
Not surprising if you consider that morality is born within groups and how they treat each other. God could not learn morality because he is the only one of his group.

Note how man centers his morality on others while God and Jesus center their morality on themselves and is self-serving.

I disagree. I think that one of humanity's traits is the will to venerate greatness.

Yes. On a voluntary basis. Not because one is ordered under pain of torture in hell.
What greatness can we attribute to God? Nothing unless you decide to believe in fantasy, miracles and magic that there is no evidence for. You know there is none and that is why believers hide behind faith.

You see it everywhere in history and contemporary society. In Sports, with a capital S, the veneration of greatness is well expressed. So too it is well expressed in Award Nights of all kinds from all levels of society.

Now, if this will to venerate greatness finds expression in religion and spirituality, is it fair to accuse god of being self serving or is it better to see it for what it is, yet another example of that trait we are discussing.

So to you, to demand veneration, love, honors etc. is not self-serving.
Give your head a shake.

Regards
DL

by Shirina Sun Jul 29, 2012 5:33 pm

Where does Capital Punishment fit into this seemingly picture perfect universal morality? (This is relevant because not all nations appeal to legal murder as a mechanism of Justice.)

Capital punishment, at least in the US, is relatively rare. Those that are given death sentences received a trial by jury and were not summarily executed. Granted, this is not a perfect system and I know all the arguments against death sentences. However, the point I'm trying to make is that ALL societies have laws against murder, theft, assault, and other crimes. No society allows its citizens to just run around murdering people. That would be utter anarchy, and the fact that all societies do have these laws, the morality regarding murder is, in fact, universal. There are no exceptions. There are numerous examples where a government or a dictator can seemingly murder at will, but the citizens cannot. Unfortunately, not all leaders are moral.

And war? (Particularly where those engaged in War refuse to be recognised by the War Crimes Tribunal) And terrorism? (Which I note is still woefully defined yet liberally used against others as a term of derision and a justification to divide and conquer.)

War and terrorism do not equate to a civilization that allows its citizens to freely kill whomever they wish. In wartime, for example, there are rules of engagement and soldiers who violate them are tried, convicted, and thrown in jail (or shot). War does not equate to indiscriminate killing. Terrorism does amount to indiscriminate killing, thus, terrorists are murderers. They are breaking laws. Even the Taliban offered to turn over bin Laden to be tried and convicted in the US ... but Bush refused because he wanted war. If the Taliban recognizes terrorism as murder, then it shows that there is a universal morality when it comes to killing.

If you had the opportunity to be a part of the veneration expressed at the Ballet, Theatre, Symphony, Opera... and even to a lesser extent at Lecture Halls.

Except these are all entertainers. High-brow entertainment to be certain, but it's still entertainment. I'm not suggesting that there aren't great entertainers, but we as a society often put too much value on it while ignoring those that truly change the world. To exemplify my point, ask any random person and they'll be able to tell you the names of 5 great singers, but very very few will be able to tell you the names of 5 Nobel Prize winners. There are massive celebrations and nationally broadcast award ceremonies for the Oscars and Emmys ... but how often does a national channel televise the giving of the Balzan prize for excellence in science and technology?

Even in our schools, here in America, the sports teams receive huge amounts of recognition whereas excellence in academics is hardly whispered about much less plastered all over the front page of the school newspaper.

It is no great leap of understanding to see how this trait can be expressed in the superhuman context.

When it comes to God, there is nothing to venerate. Ironically, you stated this:

Tragically, even criminals of great notoriety are adored by a very few.

I beg to differ here. Criminals aren't adored by just a very few. In fact, one criminal is adored by billions: God. His actions in the OT are nothing BUT criminal. Not only do people venerate God, they venerate his criminality, making up all kinds of excuses and bizarre rationalizations why God's actions are somehow good. Nonsense. Anyone reading the OT should feel sickened that their supposed deity would behave like a petulant and psychopathic child, yet that isn't the case. Billions still adore and venerate God.

On the other hand, I can understand the veneration of Jesus, but it is a twisted veneration. God offering a sacrifice of himself to himself ... well how self-serving is that? I would say that is hugely self-serving. Did Jesus die for our sins? No ... Jesus died for God. After all, God is all-powerful; he could simply wave his hand and say, "You're forgiven." Instead of doing that, however, he had to make a grand spectacle of giving a blood sacrifice to himself in order to forgive us. That really doesn't make a lot of sense to a rational mind, but it makes perfect sense when viewed with the lens of a deity with severe psychiatric issues.

So we can say that God demands our veneration or we could say that Tribal Leaders use their communal Gods to ensure social unity and the Leaders power.

Which brings us back to the original point - Is God self-serving, and the answer is yes. He wants everyone to worship him, he wants a monopoly on the spiritual life of mortals - using threats to get what he wants. This is definitely not the biography of a loving, good, and just being.

What I say in no way disproves the existence of God, but it does cast some doubt on whether or not the human perception of God is all that accurate.

Take care, TB. I hope I didn't offend you with my opinions. Smile

by polyglide Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:33 pm

God does not only want people to honour him, he wants people to honour each other and most of the quotes you use are out of context with the whole scenario.

The whole point is, if people did not transgress there would be no need for any kind of punishment.

Shirina, you appear to be unable to consider the fact that not all the Bible was intended to be taken literally.

There is no doubt terms were used to show the severity of certain indiscretions and not meant to be taken as fact.

We consider events by our limited means and it is those who seek the truth which is obviously hidden or there would be no need for faith, who will see the light, so come on Shirina put a battery in your torch.

by oftenwrong Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:47 pm

"not all the Bible was intended to be taken literally."

Something it has in common with this thread then.

by Greatest I am Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:10 pm

polyglide wrote:God does not only want people to honour him, he wants people to honour each other and most of the quotes you use are out of context with the whole scenario.

The whole point is, if people did not transgress there would be no need for any kind of punishment.

Shirina, you appear to be unable to consider the fact that not all the Bible was intended to be taken literally.

There is no doubt terms were used to show the severity of certain indiscretions and not meant to be taken as fact.

We consider events by our limited means and it is those who seek the truth which is obviously hidden or there would be no need for faith, who will see the light, so come on Shirina put a battery in your torch.

Perhaps we would, as I agree with most of what she says, if you would take the log out of your eye before asking others to take the splinter from theirs.

Regards
DL

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