Issues of morality shut Christians up

First topic message reminder :

Issues of morality shuts Christians up.

I know I have done well in an O. P. when Christians run from a discussion.

I wrote these two posts and got almost no response. Not a usual thing for my posts. This tells me that I hit the nail right on the head and Christians have no apologetics to refute my claim.

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If you accept this as universal morality, you will reject God.

http://blog.ted.com/2008/09/17/the_real_differ/

God does not follow the first rule at all.

The bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or sin.

This shows that what many thinks is our number one moral value was completely ignored by God.

Is God immoral or has man gotten morality wrong?

If God was right, then are we to believe that fathers are to bury their children instead of the way people think in that children should bury their parents?

John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.”

On earth as it is in heaven.

If you had God’s power to set the conditions for atonement, would you step up yourself or would you send your child to die?

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God to Jesus. I just condemned the human race. Now go die to save them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoHP-f-_F9U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ott1...eature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqP_f...eature=related

I think that the notion that punishing the innocent instead of the guilty perpetrator is immoral. Be it a willing sacrifice as some believe with Jesus or unwilling victim.

I also think that God, who has a plethora of other options, would have come up with a moral way instead of an immoral and barbaric human sacrifice.

I agree with scriptures say that we are all responsible for our own righteousness as well as our own iniquity and that God cannot be bribed by sacrifice.

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Psalm 49:7
None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

I believe as I do because I believe that the first rule of morality is harm/care of children.

http://blog.ted.com/2008/09/17/the_real_differ/

Do you agree that the notion of substitutionary atonement is immoral and that God’s first principle of morality is hare/harm and that this would prevent him from demanding the death of his son?

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This lack of opposition to the premise given tells me that Christians may actually be more moral than what I give them credit for. They do not walk their talk in these cases and that is a plus.

Seems Christians actually recognize good morals even if they do not preach them.
I thank Christians for confirming my view that they are just following tradition, dogma and culture while not really following their God. Thank God for that. Any sane man would reject the bible God.

Regards
DL

polyglide wrote:The only time God will judge, is on judgement day, when mankind has had a chance to choose good or evil.

Are you saying that he did not judge man when he used genocide on us in Noah's day?

If that is not what you are saying then get the quote to make your case please.

Regards
DL

polyglide wrote:The only time God will judge, is on judgement day, when mankind has had a chance to choose good or evil.

Are you suggesting that groveling to God has nothing to do with your worthiness?

That has always been one of the quintessential failures of Christianity - the idea that someone could live most of his life as a depraved murderer, pedophile, and rapist but late in life converts to Christianity, begs for forgiveness, and off he goes to heaven. Meanwhile, a person who lived a good life, was righteous, moral, and compassionate - person whose sins were minor - will end up in hell because the only thing he did not do was praise God.

That's an epic fail beyond belief.

What you write there Shirina is perfectly right, that is why there is no such place as heaven or hell is there.

stuart torr wrote:What you write there Shirina is perfectly right, that is why there is no such place as heaven or hell is there.

It's definitely a big reason why I don't believe in any of it. From a cult perspective, the biggest goal is to accumulate followers and ensure that they don't leave. Thus a dogma of needing to praise God (i.e. to stay in the cult) was formed in order to get to Heaven. Even the Catholics understood this, which is why being ex-communicated was such a weighty threat back in the day.

Did you use to be a Catholic then Shirina if you don't mind me asking?

Shirina wrote:

stuart torr wrote:What you write there Shirina is perfectly right, that is why there is no such place as heaven or hell is there.

It's definitely a big reason why I don't believe in any of it. From a cult perspective, the biggest goal is to accumulate followers and ensure that they don't leave. Thus a dogma of needing to praise God (i.e. to stay in the cult) was formed in order to get to Heaven. Even the Catholics understood this, which is why being ex-communicated was such a weighty threat back in the day.

I don't think that's quite what the RC church teaches. Rather that ex-comminication makes it harder to get to heaven, but ones fate is ultimately in the hands of God, the final Judge.
I agree that what you printed was probably the accepted conception of the time by the ordinary folk, and they were not enlightened by the clergy of the time. In fact it is still accepted by many - out of ignorance.

Hi trevor.
I do not believe that like myself, Shirina is a believer.
So when we die it will be bones in a box, or ashes in a gasket end of story.
I do hope that she will come on and put her part of the debate to you if I have it wrong especially.

polyglide wrote:The only time God will judge, is on judgement day, when mankind has had a chance to choose good or evil.

Really? So God didn't judge Adam and Eve then, and cast them from the garden of Eden, or judge Cain and curse every single man woman and child with the stain of original sin? I think your claim is fundamentally at odds with Christian doctrine.

The argument would be that there is no such thing as original sin. Judaism does not recognise the doctrine and it did not even become Christian doctrine until Augustine. In fact, without Judaism there would be no Christianity or Islam. Both have adapted Judaism and produced two illegitimate 'children'. Islam has gone completely overboard to claim an 'updated' Torah (Qur'an) while Christianity has adapted parts of it to claim a Messiah for themselves.

Thank-you trevor.
You are completely right of course, and was it not the destruction of the second sonic temple that bought about the final major split of the religions?
But Judaism was around first and without it the other religions would not have existed or existed later in a different form?

Sorry, I've been really busy in the meatworld. When added to the time I spend "out of commission" due to pain, I don't get to post as often as I used to. (I'm working on getting back to NC so I don't have to deal with this particular life any longer).

No, I was never a Catholic but I had a number of friends who were, and my father and step-mother are both Catholic. I won't claim to know a lot about Catholic tradition and ritual - most of what I do know comes from my study of history.

Trevor, you might very well be right about ex-communication only making it more difficult to get to Heaven, but as you say, that doesn't matter in the eyes of the populace, most of whom were illiterate, fearful, and very superstitious back when these ideas were first proposed. A lot of that residual fear and superstition still lingers on Catholic belief even today. The Church still ex-communicates people and many still think that effectively bans you from Heaven.

Yet all religions start as some crazy cult that the mainstream looks at askance, thinking all the members are complete loons. These fledgling religions always needed a hook to get people in the pews and a fear-based threat to keep them there. Concepts like an eternal Hell for apostacy or blasphemy and ex-communication are just some of the fear-based threats used to keep the followers following. Later, when the cults actually became religions, torture was routinely used to keep the faithful in line.

Hello Shirina.
Your post left me with more questions than answers, I have to ask you if you have been in hospital, and in the operating theatre.?
If you have I do hope that you are feeling better, and are in less pain. I posted on the other thread that I use to be a staff nurse, and I worked in the operating theatre for approximately 5years.
You say in your post that you are working on getting back to the NC, may I ask what the NC is please?.
Many of the church populace still believes that ex-communication bans you from heaven, especially in the R.C. church.
All I can say for myself and I believe fellow posters, it will be a shame not to see your posts on here again, and wish you all the luck you need for the future.

Shirina lives in the USA, where NC stands for North Carolina.

Thank-you very much Ivan, so is she getting more involved over there?

stuart torr wrote:Hello Shirina.
Your post left me with more questions than answers, I have to ask you if you have been in hospital, and in the operating theatre.?
If you have I do hope that you are feeling better, and are in less pain. I posted on the other thread that I use to be a staff nurse, and I worked in the operating theatre for approximately 5years.
You say in your post that you are working on getting back to the NC, may I ask what the NC is please?.
Many of the church populace still believes that ex-communication bans you from heaven, especially in the R.C. church.
All I can say for myself and I believe fellow posters, it will be a shame not to see your posts on here again, and wish you all the luck you need for the future.

No one can figure out what's wrong with me, so no, I've never been admitted to a hospital to have any kind of surgery. But they're still trying, at least.

As Ivan said, NC stands for North Carolina, which was where I was living until last year when I was forced to move back home to PA (Pennsylvania). Not only is the weather here abysmal (6-7 months of solid winter and -20 degree temperatures some mornings), so too are the attitudes here. When I lived here as a teen, it wasn't like this - but both the weather and the political/religious views have changed dramatically. Now I'm surrounded on all sides by right-wing Republicans and conservative, fundamentalist Christians. In fact, my aunt and I had a fight last week because I exploded on her for claiming that gays are pedophiles and have an irresistable urge to have sex with children. She screamed at me about how I don't believe in God - to which I shrugged my shoulders and said, "So?"  As if accusing me of being an atheist is some kind of insult. Anyhow, even members of my family have been irrevokably damaged by religious fanaticism.

So ... I want to get back to North Carolina where all of my friends are. I'm pretty much locked in a house (due to my pain) with a 90 year-old woman who won't leave me alone and an aunt who is a fundamentalist nutjob. Yeah, I want to escape. Big time. Just last week, my best friend from high school stopped by but only for a few minutes. She was just here to help her parents move out of their house. I thought, well, that's it. Now that her parents are gone, I really don't know a soul in this town anymore. Not even my friends' parents live here anymore. So I want to get out of this cesspool as fast as I can.

Oh, and I'm not going anywhere, Stuart. I may not be able to post quite as often as I used to, but I'm not leaving or anything like that. I'll be around. That's the beauty of the internet - whether I'm here in Pennsylvania or back down in North Carolina, I'll still be here, and you won't even know that I've moved unless I told you. Other than a few days to actually make the move and set everything up in my new abode, you won't even know I'm 500 miles from where I used to be.   

Oh Shirina my friend, if only my hands could reach across the ocean to help in any way they could for you.
As an ex charge nurse, my first thoughts are about your pain relief, and from where I am they seem inefficient?
I can tell that the politics and religions where you are living at the moment, are not good for Atheists are they?
Shall I pop on the plane and give them another Atheist to fight against?  
I hope you do not have to wait too much longer before your move to North Carolina, and I hope that your Doctor there can sort out your pain problem for you.
Take care Shirina, and just ignore the political and religious folks who try and make your life a misery.   

Well Shirina just got one piece of carpet to take up and hoover the floor before my carpet is fitted on Wednesday, then my new sofa's on Thursday arrive.
Then it has all got to be moved back into the living room, then I collapse through sheer tiredness.  
I have to get it done by sunday as that is my daughters access visit day, so I can surprise her.
How are you keeping love with your pain and your move to N.C?
When I go to see my specialist Shirina, my hospital notes are about two feet thick, as they do not know what is wrong with me exactly.
Mines all in the brain though.
Hope your pain has improved some love take care.

Hello, Stuart ...

These days, I live mostly in isolation.

My room looks like a NASA command center with all of my monitors, big screen television, DVD players, computers, routers, home theater system, etc. etc. About 90% of my time is spent voluntarily locked in this room trying to ignore everything that takes place beyond the walls. Soon I'm going to get a mini-refrigerator to put in here so I won't even have to leave to get a drink.

It's just so tiring dealing with people around here, and any more I just see the rest of the world as one big obstacle - everything about life outside of these walls is about problems, roadblocks, and a system that seems rigged to work against you -all- the time. So much incompetence and people not doing their jobs right. Misplaced paperwork, long wait times, stupid corporate and governmental policies, idiot Republicans always trying to make life harder for people like me so the wealthy can enjoy their already bloated lifestyles just a little bit more - and of course religious fanatics with uniquely American fundamentalist "values" that merely equate to theological fascism.

I used to be quite the social butterfly. I had a social empire that stretched from the Great Lakes all the way down to Florida and west to Chicago and Oklahoma on down to Houston and New Orleans. Not to mention my overseas contacts both in India and the UK. I was never home and never alone unless I wanted to be, and I flitted around the entire eastern seaboard hanging out with people and attending different social events.

Now, I'm pretty much just in this room and I have no desire to be anywhere else - except in North Carolina where I actually have friends. Atheist friends, too.

At least I've been able to get a prescription for -real- painkillers, in this case, hydrocodone. So I'm not in as much pain as I used to be. That's about the only "blessing" to occur. That and I was able to get on Medicaid here in PA - which is free medical care. My mother is working hard to get me back down to NC because she knows how unhappy I am here, but I can't really go anywhere until I've done all that I can medically. Right now I'm trying for my second round of getting on disability, but in this country, even if you crawl into the office on your hands and knees trailing blood and vital organs, they'll make you fight for all your worth to get it. They try to grind you down with long wait times, vast amounts of paperwork, unfair questions, and deliberate bureaucratic errors just to see if you'll lose your patience and withdraw your claim. The government wages a war of attrition in the hopes that you'll exhaust yourself and fall back on family to take care of you.

But I can't do that. All I have is my mother and she's retiring next week, plus she has breast cancer (though I think they caught it so quickly that she may not be in any danger). I don't have a big family to fall back on for support - especially not for the rest of my life. So I have to fight this stupid battle. It all comes from that Puritanical Protestantism that places punishment over reward - lots and lots of negative reinforcement, the stick rather than the carrot. Thus when you apply for disability, you are -automatically- considered guilty of fraud until you -prove- you're disabled. And you can't even use your own doctors. You have to be analyzed by government doctors who are paid to keep people off disability. That's why I said earlier about a system that is rigged against you.

Hi Shirina.
My flat is almost the same my love, All the electronics in the front room, cramps me a little/lot at times, and the wiring is the biggest problem.
All the lights flashing here there and everywhere, telling me that they are on and working.  
Where you have the republican paperwork to fight against, I have the Conservatives, trying to cut my invalid monies down, letters every month that I must answer or else.
You are so right regarding the religious and the Facist's, they seem to be around every corner I turn.
I'm glad that you have a better pain relief Shirina, at least it contains codeine, which is stronger all round.
The government are the same here Shirina, when it comes to getting on the disability, you have to have so many interviews with the government office, take your specialist letter and your g.p letter plus your prescription of what medication you are on.
Then an interview by the government doctor.
I hope your mum soon recovers from her cancer love, and they have caught it in time.
Even here Shirina, you are still considered a fraud, even when you have been proved that you are disabled.

Take care Shirina, think of all the good things in life.

Shirina, you have my deepest sympathy for all your problems most of which are shared by many other people, I see at least 50 disabled people every week and the vast majority deal with their problems in a practical manner and are helped by those more fortunate.

I agree that there are a lot of problems regarding the disabled, it is an unfortunate fact that these have mainly been brought about by the true ma llingerers who do not want to work and this affects the true disabled.

It is also a fact that those wanting to take society for a ride are the most cunning in putting forward a case.

So it is very difficult to have a system that can sort out the good from the bad which does no adversly affect the good.

Many of the disabled I meet and deal with have never ever been anything other than disabled and have never ever experienced what others take for granted.

It comes as a shock after working as a nurse in my case P.G.
But in Shirina's case also with her mother poorly, it must be awfully bad.

Yes, I agree, I have seen and experienced cancer with my first wife
and it makes one wonder just how and why things of this nature occur.

I was angry, to say the least, my wife was more devote than myself and I said to her why on earth should this happen to you, her reply was, why not me.

God has to allow the terrible things that happen because the Devil is involved, this does not mean he either condones nor is to blame for them.

It was hard for me and our children, in particular our daughter whose wedding we brought forward so that my wife could see her get married, it is still raw and as I write this I could cry.

I am sincerely sorry for you P.G.
It is one of the worst diseases known to the human race, and I have nursed patients with it who have passed away also.
You and your family have my condolences.

trevorw2539 wrote:I don't think that's quite what the RC church teaches. Rather that ex-comminication makes it harder to get to heaven, but ones fate is ultimately in the hands of God, the final Judge.

Are you an American or do you vote your judges into office?

Is God a just judge?

This speaks of Jesus.
He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

The above quote shows this as Gods first actual judgement and shows his setting and accepting a bribe of a human sacrifice to corrupt or alter his justice and judgement.

Justice usually states that only the punishment of the guilty is acceptable to justice and that it would be unjust to punish the innocent.

God’s corruption of this usual justice is what the bribe or sacrifice of Jesus bought. Injustice.

If you elect your judges in your country, would you vote God in as a fair and just judge knowing that he can be bribed?

Is God a just judge?

Regards
DL

The world is 4.5 billion years old, according to bibles jesus is not that old.
God if there is one is not that old either according to man written bibles.
Which do not tell the truth do they, if you admit it.
It is all b/s.

stuart torr wrote:The world is 4.5 billion years old, according to bibles jesus is not that old.
God if there is one is not that old either according to man written bibles.
Which do not tell the truth do they, if you admit it.
It is all b/s.

Read literally, no argument. In fact I think literal reading quite destructive to society at large.

If not read literally then the bible and all other religions and scriptures become myths with messages and those messages are what we should be seeking. Those usually will be seen slightly differently by all. That is their discussion value. All scriptures are written to stimulate discussions of God. Not to point to any one God.

Regards
DL

Which god greatest? there are so many of them is there not?
There should be only one basically.

stuart torr wrote:Which god greatest? there are so many of them is there not?
There should be only one basically.

God is an ideal. There can only be one ideal at any given point of time and in terms of a God. Since only man has ever spoken for God, it is to us to elect what we think is the man with the most ideal view and follow him as we try to raise that ideal to the next level. That is the idea of following Jesus.

Our God has always been a man as God never speaks other than through men.

All of us little gods are supposed to elect a big God.

Have ye forgotten that ye are gods?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbesfXXw&feature=player_embedded

Regards
DL

I am no god greatest, and do not believe in any, no matter how big or small.

stuart torr wrote:I am no god greatest, and do not believe in any, no matter how big or small.

I define God as an ideal way to live.

You have one of these ideal or way of life and are living it to the best of your ability. My assumption of course.

I see all people living the same way as we all strive for the best end.

We are on the same page but are stuck in the nomenclature and definitions. The important part my friend is that we share the same moral view that sees the evils of some parts of religions.

The rest is commentary to moral men.

Regards
DL

For your files all.

I like this poet as he describes God but then he proves to just be another idol worshiper.

http://www.thesongofgod.com/tgc/basic_beliefs.html

Regards
DL

That poet you describe as an idol worshiper Greatest, was on the gnostic thread?
So it would be very hard to describe him as an idol worshiper, would it not?
You should be careful with your wording Greatest, otherwise you may end up with a warning, as we have all had one in our time on the forum and that is why we note what others do too.

stuart torr wrote:That poet you describe as an idol worshiper Greatest, was on the gnostic thread?
So it would be very hard to describe him as an idol worshiper, would it not?
You should be careful with your wording Greatest, otherwise you may end up with a warning, as we have all had one in our time on the forum and that is why we note what others do too.

He is definitely an idol worshiper as are all Christians and others who have a Godinabook or have named their God.

I do not remember how I used his clip on the Gnostic thread. If not in the manner I used it here.

What wording are you referring to that would bring a warning. I sain nothing particularly mod worthy.

Regards
DL

Greatest, gnostic=knowledge of the salvation going back to the 6th century, it does not mean that a gnostic is a believer in god, as you state in your post.  

stuart torr wrote:Greatest, gnostic=knowledge of the salvation going back to the 6th century, it does not mean that a gnostic is a believer in god, as you state in your post.  

http://www.thesongofgod.com/tgc/basic_beliefs.html

God to Jews have always been a society of god with an elected God.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbesfXXw&feature=player_embedded

When you can name God I am, and mean yourself, then you will begin to know the only God you can ever know.

When I did I forced my apotheosis and found a cosmic consciousness. Our next evolutionary step.

Gnostic Christians are Universalists so your use of the word salvation does not apply to us as we have no need of salvation because God would not condemn his own parts. We are all of God in that sense.

Regards
DL

I am not part of any god greatest, as I stated I'm an atheist full stop.  

stuart torr wrote:I am not part of any god greatest, as I stated I'm an atheist full stop.  

That is why I am trying to inform you that the world is weirder than you think.

Regards
DL

you cannot inform me of something that I already know GIa.  

stuart torr wrote:you cannot inform me of something that I already know GIa.  

What have you seen that is real yet weird or out of the ordinary that does not involve people?
We all know weird people.

Regards
DL

I rarely go on my other forum greatest because of a shadow, I'm certainly not leaving this, this is the last time I'm speaking to you.

stuart torr wrote:I rarely go on my other forum greatest because of a shadow, I'm certainly not leaving this, this is the last time I'm speaking to you.

If this is how you answer questions then good.

Regards
DL