Issues of morality shut Christians up

by Greatest I am Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:47 pm

First topic message reminder :

Issues of morality shuts Christians up.

I know I have done well in an O. P. when Christians run from a discussion.

I wrote these two posts and got almost no response. Not a usual thing for my posts. This tells me that I hit the nail right on the head and Christians have no apologetics to refute my claim.

==========================

If you accept this as universal morality, you will reject God.

http://blog.ted.com/2008/09/17/the_real_differ/

God does not follow the first rule at all.

The bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or sin.

This shows that what many thinks is our number one moral value was completely ignored by God.

Is God immoral or has man gotten morality wrong?

If God was right, then are we to believe that fathers are to bury their children instead of the way people think in that children should bury their parents?

John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.”

On earth as it is in heaven.

If you had God’s power to set the conditions for atonement, would you step up yourself or would you send your child to die?

=============================

God to Jesus. I just condemned the human race. Now go die to save them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoHP-f-_F9U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ott1...eature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqP_f...eature=related

I think that the notion that punishing the innocent instead of the guilty perpetrator is immoral. Be it a willing sacrifice as some believe with Jesus or unwilling victim.

I also think that God, who has a plethora of other options, would have come up with a moral way instead of an immoral and barbaric human sacrifice.

I agree with scriptures say that we are all responsible for our own righteousness as well as our own iniquity and that God cannot be bribed by sacrifice.

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Psalm 49:7
None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

I believe as I do because I believe that the first rule of morality is harm/care of children.

http://blog.ted.com/2008/09/17/the_real_differ/

Do you agree that the notion of substitutionary atonement is immoral and that God’s first principle of morality is hare/harm and that this would prevent him from demanding the death of his son?

==============================

This lack of opposition to the premise given tells me that Christians may actually be more moral than what I give them credit for. They do not walk their talk in these cases and that is a plus.

Seems Christians actually recognize good morals even if they do not preach them.
I thank Christians for confirming my view that they are just following tradition, dogma and culture while not really following their God. Thank God for that. Any sane man would reject the bible God.

Regards
DL

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Tue Feb 17, 2015 2:13 pm

polyglide wrote:Dr. Sheldon,
My point is. You are unable to appreciate that you can have a perfection but it can be ruined by abuse.
Dr SC wrote:I understand the claim perfectly you clown, unlike you however I'd require evidence before believing bronze age claims for the existence of the supernatural. Anecdotal hearsay from unknown antiquated authorship simply won't cut the mustard.

I simple illustration is beyond your understanding.
Dr SC wrote:Your superior grasp of the English language has baffled me again I'm afraid.

You look at things in a perverted manner [ which in dictionary terms makes you a pervert

You do like to throw the word pervert around don't you. It looks like you have some sort of issues there to be honest.

by boatlady Tue Feb 17, 2015 2:28 pm

This childish squabbling is counter-productive to say the least - not sure what you're supposed to be discussing, but at present it just seems to be personal abuse

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Tue Feb 17, 2015 2:36 pm

Polyglide wrote: You have a total disregard for historicity and indulge in nothing more than hocuc-pocus.

You don't say, care to give a couple of examples? Or is this to be another of your outrageous lies that you refuse to even acknowedge after its posted?

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Tue Feb 17, 2015 2:38 pm

boatlady wrote:This childish squabbling is counter-productive to say the least - not sure what you're supposed to be discussing, but at present it just seems to be personal abuse

I'm afraid it has decended into this, and I accept my share of the blame. Though to be fair I have tried to respond to the post content and taken some time to address the entire posts, only to be told I'm a pervert, apparently.

by stuart torr Tue Feb 17, 2015 2:56 pm

Sheldon why do you not leave this argument as one you will not win, and go to another thread to chat about the current goings on which are far more interesting and fun, and leave PG to it.

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Tue Feb 17, 2015 3:22 pm

stuart torr wrote:Sheldon why do you not leave this argument as one you will not win, and go to another thread to chat about the current goings on which are far more interesting and fun, and leave PG to it.

I guess I'm just stubborn.

Though I don't think Polyglide has provided much in the way of polemic. Then again I'd not be an atheist if I found religious apologetics compelling.

The problem is the original topics seem to be lost. So getting back to GIA's thread topic.

Given the actions of the biblical god, advocating genocide infanticide rapine and torture, how can anyone view such a being as a just judge?

I'd go farther here and point out that an omniscient being would know before hand that the majority of human lives would end in eternal torture. Now no human would be considered just if they advocated torture, let alone eternal torture. Also what purpose does this serve with no prospect for rehabilitation?

Such a being should rightly be viewed as a capricious sadistic maniac, shouldn't it?

by stuart torr Tue Feb 17, 2015 3:27 pm

Exactly Sheldon and not proving much opposition for you really now you must admit?

by polyglide Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:18 pm

Dr. Sheldon,
Your appreciation of the Bible is as sound as your lack of understanding of the written word.

You do not understand that a perfect thing can be destroyed by abuse and would blame the maker.

You do not reconcile the contents of the Bible with the times they refer to.

You do not understand that words can be used in several ways depending on the subject matter.

You are tottaly unable to understand a perfectly put point.

I am afraid you are a lost soul but I will still pray for you.

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:55 pm

polyglide wrote:Your appreciation of the Bible is as sound as your lack of understanding of the written word.
Dr Sheldon Cooper wrote:If you can't respond in a civil manner then I'm going to ignore your post, you have been warned. I'm not entirely enamoured with people who sententiously lecture me whilst proselytising either, as an atheist I left that behind long ago. If you think something I have posted is wrong, or my logic spurious, then please have the courtesy to highlight it and explain why, and avoid these constant ad hominem

polyglide wrote:You do not understand that a perfect thing can be destroyed by abuse and would blame the maker.
Dr Sheldon Cooper wrote:As I've already explained it's not a lack of understanding that is the issue here, but that you're making a bare unevidenced claim, Hitchen's Razor applies, again. Unless of course you want to take a stab at some evidence?

polyglide wrote:You do not reconcile the contents of the Bible with the times they refer to.
Dr Sheldon Cooper wrote:On the contrary I certainly do, as my posts show. What I don't and can't reconcile them with is the risible idea that a message from a deity with both omniscience and omnipotence would read precisely as if it originated in the mind of ignorant bronze age humans. Perhaps you have some rational evidence that appeal to more than blind faith? If so by all means present it here.

polyglide wrote:You do not understand that words can be used in several ways depending on the subject matter.
Dr Sheldon Cooper wrote:Don't be silly now, I think we can both see that this is not true.

polyglide wrote:You are tottaly unable to understand a perfectly put point.
Dr Sheldon Cooper wrote:Sigh, please try to be polite, it's a serious failing that you lose your temper without provocation, and I will simply ignore your posts if you persist. Try and understand that just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they don't grasp what you've said, after all I take a deal of trouble not to post unevidenced dismissive and slightly derisory sound-bites like the one you've just aimed at me.

polyglide wrote:I am afraid you are a lost soul but I will still pray for you.
Dr Sheldon Cooper wrote:That's no argument at all, nor is it discussion.

by Greatest I am Fri Feb 20, 2015 2:00 am

stuart torr wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScabBZgOSME&feature=player_embedded

Regards
DL

by polyglide Fri Feb 20, 2015 4:50 pm

DR. Sheldon,
The only time we will be able to give a real reply to this question is on Jugement Day.

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Fri Feb 20, 2015 5:10 pm

polyglide wrote:DR. Sheldon,
The only time we will be able to give a real reply to this question is on Jugement Day.

That's not true at all, we can base our answer to the question in the thread title on what evidence is available. Even as an atheist I can give a hypothetical answer that comments on the belief that the Christian god is a just judge based on biblical accounts of it's behaviour. It's ironic you seem to quote and ref the bible when it suits, but when the bible gives an answer you don't like then suddenly it isn't relevant or doesn't have an answer.

by polyglide Fri Feb 20, 2015 5:23 pm

Dr. Sheldon,
The Bible says all will be reveiled on Jugement Day.

According to Christianity; God will Judge only on that day.

There is no evidence whatsoever that God is making any jugement at this time.

All events and results are man's making and no one elses.

God will, if approached as indicated in the BIble, give solice etc; in times of need.

The need always as a result in one way or another of man's actions.

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Fri Feb 20, 2015 5:41 pm

Can you please desist from using unnecessary line breaks it's very annoying. The thread OP asked a specific question, I answered it, and showed evidence as to why I thought my answer was valid. If you have anything to say about that answer please post it, but please desist from proselytising as that is not the purpose of this thread or this forum, and I have no interest in being preached at.

by polyglide Sat Feb 21, 2015 11:28 am

Dr, Sheldon,
The thread is regarding God and his ability to judge.

I have answered the question, it appears you are unable to understand.

I quote the Bible only to clarify my point, I would certainly be overjoyed if you came to your sences and adopted Cristianity once again.

Rev. 20; 11, 12.

States clearly the only jugdgement day.

For the explanation regarding the earth's problems at the present time, 1 John. 5:9

by snowyflake Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:01 pm

Polyglide, how do you know so much about god when the bible says who knows the mind of god? 1 Corinthians 2:16

I find it to be the utmost hubris when believers pretend to know what god is thinking or how he will judge anything. You don't know. You can't know. The bible is not a source for the mind of god when the bible itself tells you that you can't and don't know.

God changes his mind according to the bible. He can be dissuaded from his course of action by prayer apparently but then he knows ahead of time that you will pray so it really isn't changing his mind is it?

How do you keep all this convoluted logic straight in your mind is anyone's guess. It's probably why believers go off the rails and kill people.

by polyglide Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:10 pm

snowyflake,
I do not think in any post I have ever stated that I know what God is thinking, only what he has stated.

I accept what the New Testament says will happen and to date things are going along nicely.

Not in the manner we would like but in fullfillment of God's wordd.

Open your eyes and see the light.

by snowyflake Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:17 pm

polyglide wrote:God will, if approached as indicated in the BIble, give solice etc; in times of need.

Only 4 posts up you have posted this as if you know how god will react suggesting you know. You don't know. At best, you are guessing based on your knowledge of what the bible says.

I might have suggested this previously but I think you should see a really good lecture by Steven Pinker on youtube called The Better Angels of Our Nature. It doesn't jive with your apocalyptic worldview. It's about an hour long but it is very good and he shows the evidence of how we are better now than we have ever been in our history. Please, when you have time, go and watch it and then go back to your bible which is 2000 years old and doesn't have any current knowledge or data and see if it really is 'going along nicely' as you so abhorrently put it.

I'm interested in your thoughts on the lecture.

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Sun Feb 22, 2015 10:00 am

polyglide wrote:Dr, Sheldon,
The thread is regarding God and his ability to judge.

I have answered the question, it appears you are unable to understand.

I quote the Bible only to clarify my point, I would certainly be overjoyed if you came to your sences and adopted Cristianity once again.

Rev. 20; 11, 12.

States clearly the only jugdgement day.

For the explanation regarding the earth's problems at the present time, 1 John. 5:9

Stop

using

unnecessary

line breaks,

and spacing,

it's very

annoying.

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Sun Feb 22, 2015 10:07 am

polyglide wrote:Dr, Sheldon,
The thread is regarding God and his ability to judge. I have answered the question, it appears you are unable to understand. I quote the Bible only to clarify my point, I would certainly be overjoyed if you came to your sences and adopted Cristianity once again. Rev. 20; 11, 12. States clearly the only jugdgement day. For the explanation regarding the earth's problems at the present time, 1 John. 5:9

As I pointed out, the deity and the religion we're being asked to embrace has some egregiously immoral claims and laws in it's biblical narrative. I'd never embrace such ideas even if I believed the deity existed, but I don't believe any such thing, as there is no credible or tangible evidence to support the claim. What's more humans have a clear propensity for inventing gods and regions. They can't all be true, but they can certainly all be false. Quoting scripture at me won't really help as it's a bit like showing meat recipes to a vegetarian in the hope they'll see how tasty they are. I don't doubt there are people who somehow rationalise this hokum superstition to preserve a believe in it, but I am not minded to ignore evidence or to accept things that are palpably false, and without proper evidence anyway.

Now if you want to explain why a deity with both omniscience and omnipotence deals in bloodshed, violence, genocide, slavery and rapine then explain why on earth I should embrace such a teaching then that is precisely what this thread is for, but simply ignoring the bits of the bible that don't support your argument is not realistic.

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Sun Feb 22, 2015 10:13 am

polyglide wrote:snowyflake,
I do not think in any post I have ever stated that I know what God is thinking, only what he has stated.
Dr Sheldon Cooper wrote:Then you're saying your belief system and everything you believe in might be entirely wrong?

I accept what the New Testament says will happen and to date things are going along nicely.
Dr Sheldon Cooper wrote:Well now that not true at all is it, Jesus according to the NT predicted he would return to his followers in a second coming within a generation.

Not in the manner we would like but in fullfillment of God's wordd.
Dr Sheldon Cooper wrote:Odd then that a great deal of what is written in the bible has turned out to be so hopelessly wrong, and been refuted by a few hundred years of empirical scientific reseach.

Open your eyes and see the light.
Dr Sheldon Cooper wrote:I'll say the same to you, have you ever even tried viewing your beliefs critically or even the claims made with a healthy cynicism? You may find it liberating when the whole shaky house of cards comes down, and it may not be the tragedy you perhaps anticipated.

by polyglide Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:52 pm

Dr. Sheldon,
God's wordd.

Tut, tut, only one d.

by polyglide Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:54 pm

Dr. Sheldon,
You have a great ability to not understand and I just wish you would read what is written and not the interpretation you like to put on matters.

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:12 pm

polyglide wrote:Dr. Sheldon,
You have a great ability to not understand and I just wish you would read what is written and not the interpretation you like to put on matters.

Polyglide.

You have an indefatigable ability to make bold sweeping but unevidenced claims. As of course you have done here again. Why not address the content of my post? You might start by citing what in my post you think has misunderstood the post I was responding to with some evidence of why it's incorrect.

Simply telling someone they don't understand you or insulting their intelligence is not discussion or debate.

Hope this helps you out as I'm tiring of pointing this out to you.

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