To hate Jews is to hate God

First topic message reminder :

To hate Jews is to hate God.

If you believe in the sacrifice of Jesus, then you must believe that God planned for it and set the conditions even before the earth was formed. If as most believe, the Jews were the cause of the sacrifice, then one must believe that God put the notion and desire to kill Jesus in the Jewish hearts. Jews then were God’s tools in carrying out God’s plan. Jews then should be venerated just as Jesus is because Jesus and Jews were required and caused by God to participate in the sacrifice. They were all doing God’s will and not their own.

Jesus was a Jew and to hate Jews means that Jesus is also hated. The church has historically persecuted Jews and only repented for their actions in 2011 with the pope acknowledging that not all Jews should be hated. Just those directly involved in the sacrifice of Jesus. Ignoring of course that they were charged directly by God to be and do what God wanted.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/jews-not-responsible-for-death-of-christ-pope-says-49267/

Why then have Christians historically hated Jews, and by inference, hate the Jew part of God/Jesus the Jew?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKg4HLsu5gE&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ott15j2KwQ&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoHP-f-_F9U

The weird twist to this history is that the Christian right who hates Jews the most, is now the ones pushing for funding of the Jewish homeland to fulfill prophesy.

Most Jews do not believe that Jesus was the messiah. Is the Christian right just funding Jews to help drive them to destruction at the hands of God?

Jews tend not to read the O. T. the way Christians do. Are Christian interpretations of Jewish text superior or inferior to the Jewish interpretation of their own myths?

Regards
DL

polyglide wrote:There are thousands of people starving and dying of curable diseases because scientists are more concerned with matters that will not be of any use to anyone.

People are starving and dying of curable diseases because of greed and profit, not because of the scientists. Corporatists and bankers and the like keep a lot of things from ever seeing the light of day. Just think of how many hundreds of billions of dollars would be lost if cancer were ever cured - all of the treatments, the drugs, even the specialized equipment would no longer be needed and people wouldn't have to fork over huge sums of money to maintain their treatments. If you're looking to blame someone, you're barking up the wrong tree when it comes to people dying and starving. Just last night I saw a segment on the news about a possible cure for the most common types of leukemia - over 50% of the patients who underwent this new treatment are now cancer-free. I told my family - yeah, sure. You will NEVER hear about this treatment again because it will be suppressed. The scientists still invent and discover, but the bankers and the wealthy elite keep those inventions and discoveries away from the general public.

polyglide wrote:We have no idea the size of the universe nor what it may hold and | can see no benifit to mankind in many of the objectives of the scientists other than to attempt to make a name for themselves.

Our desire to know and understand the universe is one of the things that makes us higher beings, one of the things that separates us from the animals. Of course to the rabidly religious, exploring the universe might be a little frightening since science might reveal the fact that the Bible just isn't true or reliable.

polyglide wrote:We have no idea what the universe holds nor the properties of most of those that we do know.

Well yes we do have an idea of what the universe holds and that picture gets clearer each day. What we know is nothing compared to what our children will know and that is a drop in the ocean compared to what our grandchildren will know.

polyglide wrote:There are thousands of people starving and dying of curable diseases because scientists are more concerned with matters that will not be of any use to anyone.

Most scientists are actively researching on behalf of industry and are in their Research and Development departments but many things discovered by them are of no financial benefit to the companies they work for and are  released into the public domain although many others are patented and placed on the shelf. Some scientists receive grants from individuals, companies or governments such as the Liverpool School of Tropical Medicine (The oldest such school or research body in this field in the world) has recently a large grant from Bill Gates (of Micro$oft) that helped them double the teaching and research space available for helping to find strategies to beat Malaria among others.

Many pieces of research make discoveries that were not being sought. I remember being told by a microbiologist that Goretex and the filter used in kidney dialysis machines were both discovered when the US Navy was looking for a plastic or other material that would allow passage of oxygen through it in one direction and carbon dioxide in the other to use as an aqualung that didn't need big heavy tanks of gases. Teflon and velcro were created as a consequence of the needs of the space program.

With luck there is a lot of research going on at the moment to take carbon dioxide out of the air and either split it back into carbon and oxygen or finding a way of tying it up in such a way that it cannot add to climate change.
 

polyglide wrote:We have no idea the size of the universe nor what it may hold and | can see no benifit to mankind in many of the objectives of the scientists other than to attempt to make a name for themselves.

If the universe is more than 6,000 light years in each direction from earth then the Young Earth Creationists are in real trouble. I seem to recall that galaxies have been spotted 13.5 to 15 billion light years away so I guess that they are well and truly screwed.

Heretic

 

I spend one day a week organising events for the handicapped.

I donate to two charities every week.

I spend time attempting to make the youngsters realise that there is more to life than a computer, including my grandchildren and involve them in outdoor activities including fishing and the keeping of animals etc;

I along with my wife have a wide circle of friends all of whom help each other in any hour of need.

If every person put the same effort in life for the betterment of all then I think the world would be a better place.

Even we atheist do help people for charity organisations, polyglide. I help any friend who needs it too but we don't usually come on here to brag about it because they know without that.

No one has any idea the size of the universe.

We have no idea where the centre is, we do not know if there is an end, we think there must have been a biggining because that is how our brain works based on all our knowledge and the same goes for an end

How can anyone visualise something that goes on for ever in respect of space.

If it does not go on for ever what does it stop at and what is at the other side.

You cannot calculate anything without having all the facts, as far as the universe is concerned, we have very few.

There will be an answer, maybe one beyond our present understanding of matters, however, everything both on earth and in the universe points to intelligence far beyond that of which we are capable of appreciating, due to our arrogance.

I have never bragged about anything I was replying to a request and I just wish I could do more.

You say that you and your wife, and wide circle of friends help each other. Are there any atheists in your wide circle of friends? or in the people you help?

polyglide wrote:I spend one day a week organising events for the handicapped.

I donate to two charities every week.

I spend time attempting to make the youngsters realise that there is more to life than a computer, including my grandchildren and involve them in outdoor activities including fishing and the keeping of animals etc;

I along with my wife have a wide circle of friends all of whom help each other in any hour of need.

If every person put the same effort in life for the betterment of all then I think the world would be a better place.

I think if every person lived a life that was devoid of religion we would be better off as a species. If we could organise our economic life in such a way that each person got what we needed while contributing all that he could (without causing suffering to those that need them). If we could organise the world in such a way that no nation sought to impose it's will on any other then we would be better off as a species.

All of these thing are for the moment pipe-dreams but are things we should aspire to. We as a species are taking steps in the right direction but they are baby-steps, in the not too distant future we should be able to take proper steps and eventually to walk confidently on this planet.

A utopia will come one day but I suspect that you might not enjoy it.

Heretic

He does a lot of work for charity, but he doesn't like to talk about it.

polyglide wrote:No one has any idea the size of the universe.

We have no idea where the centre is, we do not know if there is an end, we think there must have been a biggining because that is how our brain works based on all our knowledge and the same goes for an end

How can anyone visualise something that goes on for ever in respect of space.

If it does not go on for ever what does it stop at and what is at the other side.

You cannot calculate anything without having all the facts, as far as the universe is concerned, we have very few.

There will be an answer, maybe one beyond our present understanding of matters, however, everything both on earth and in the universe points to intelligence far beyond that of which we are capable of appreciating, due to our arrogance.

You make point after point indicating things we don't know, then leap to an assumption at the end, with no evidence, and make a claim that is palpably false. There is no indication whatsoever that anything in the universe has or needs a supernatural designer. Your broad assertions, underpinned as they are by your religious beliefs are blinkering you, throughout human history humans have assumed supernatural causes for things they couldn't explain, and in every case when science has uncovered the real cause it's been entirely natural, in short you're using a god of the gaps argument.

I do understand where you are comming from, however, it would be incredibly inappropriate to think that if you looked at a spoon, for instance, you would not think it could have come about by chance but think the universe that involves numeroue laws and all that the earth holds etc; could have.

polyglide wrote:If every person put the same effort in life for the betterment of all then I think the world would be a better place.

Heh, everyone can't put in the same effort - namely the people you're helping. I know I can't do jack. I can't even go for a damned walk, so it's not like I can leap out of my chair and go on a binge helping charities. Of course you don't live in a country like America where you are treated like a thief and a liar if you ask for government assistance, even if you live the majority of your life in chronic pain and simply can't work. Doesn't matter to these people, the most dispassionate nation in the industrialized world.

Charity is great, but it doesn't go far enough. That's why we need government help - but good luck getting it no matter how miserably disabled you happen to be. Nope, you're just supposed to get a "room" in a cardboard box located in a nice trash-coated, roach-infested alley - or maybe beneath an overpass if you're lucky.

polyglide wrote:You cannot calculate anything without having all the facts, as far as the universe is concerned, we have very few.

For one thing, scientists really do know quite a bit about the universe. I know the more fanatical religious believers will try to shout down science by saying that they're wrong sometimes, therefore, science is untrustworthy. It's a completely bogus argument since science is correct more often than it isn't. We do have quite a lot of facts.

Secondly, yes you can calculate things without all of the facts - since the majority of the time you are calculating something to get the facts you don't have.   

polyglide wrote:everything both on earth and in the universe points to intelligence far beyond that of which we are capable of appreciating, due to our arrogance.

No, it does NOT indicate the existence of some greater intelligence - and it certainly doesn't point to an omnipotent god. We've been over this before: Facts point to evolution because of the huge number of imperfections and design flaws just in the human body alone. For instance, why would a supreme being design us so that we have to excrete waste products when our body could have been designed to use all of what we put into it. What's worse is, why would a supreme being design us to take shits knowing how nasty and unsanitary it is, how full of harmful bacteria it is, how shit would cause some of the worst disease pandemics in history due to raw sewage floating down the street and into our water supplies. God could have at least given us flush toilets right from the start instead of making us come up with it ourselves 3,000 years and millions of deaths later.

What's just as stupid was putting our reproductive organs so near the waste disposal organs. Yeah, that made so much sense ... the guy's penis that he uses for sex is the same organ he uses to get rid of human waste. Seriouly? I mean, couldn't this "designer" have done something different here?

Or how about using the same passage in the throat to eat with that we breathe with? There's another death hazard as people choke to death because something they ate got caught in their throat and couldn't breathe. I would almost think that this "designer" of yours deliberately set biological traps in our own bodies just to kill us off. That's what we'd have to believe. OR we can just accept evolution and realize that we may not be done evolving, and that explains some of the massively flawed (and dangerous) issues with our bodies.

polyglide wrote:I do understand where you are comming from, however, it would be incredibly inappropriate to think that if you looked at a spoon, for instance, you would not think it could have come about by chance but think the universe that involves numeroue laws and all that the earth holds etc; could have.

Creationists have it all backward. They think that complexity indicates an intelligent designer (polyglide thinks he's being coy by not mentioning God or Jesus even though we all know that's who he really means).

But I say NO! SIMPLICITY would indicate an intelligent designer - especially one which is "all-powerful" and can make anything work that he wants to (i.e. he is not bound by the rules of physics because he can change them on a whim). Everyone knows that the more complex something is, the better the chances that something within it will break, causing a total malfunction. I find it HIGHLY unlikely that a designer, especially one who claims to love us, would make all of the interactions in the universe this bloody complicated. I don't think this designer would create humanity with all of these complex needs for us to survive - everything from vitamins from direct sunlight to temperature needs to certain kinds of bacteria that help us stay alive to the vibration frequency of the universe itself. It all seems somewhat unnecessary where an omnipotent and omni-benevolent creature god is involved.

polyglide wrote:I do understand where you are comming from, however, it would be incredibly inappropriate to think that if you looked at a spoon, for instance, you would not think it could have come about by chance but think the universe that involves numeroue laws and all that the earth holds etc;  could have.  

I have dealt with this before. Complexity is often more apparent than real. Every snowflake crystal is different but the rules that cause them to form (Hydrogen bonding of water molecules) is relatively simple. I would suggest that you read about Conway's game of Life which shows very clearly how simple rules can lead to great apparent complexity.

You might even like to have a play here --> http://www.sean.co.uk/a/science/conwaysgameoflife.shtm

These macros of snowflakes which I happened upon (via stumbleupon) at the weekend are almost as incredible as some of PG's posts
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Snowflake-Crystals-Featured-in-Amazing-Macro-Close-up-Shots-400390.shtml

I always thought snowy reasonably sound Dan,was there summat wrong with her posts this time?

Stu, you've got the wrong end of the stick, I'm on about photos of snowflakes (macros as in macroscopic, i.e. the very small made large) as Bella mentioned snowflakes in the previous post. If you click on the link in my earlier post you'll see what I mean. Here's an example of one of them:

They are quite incredible are they not Dan?

They're amazing, Stu. And despite being very busy, god still designs them all individually

Amazing how his hands can mould them into shape wiyhout melting them too.  

You have actually hit the nail on the head.

Evolution would have all the flakes exactly the same.

Just look at them again and see the intelligence and love that has gone into their design.

polyglide wrote:You have actually hit the nail on the head.

Evolution would have all the flakes exactly the same.

Just look at them again and see the intelligence and love that has gone into their design.

Evolutionary theories have nothing to do with how snowflakes form, therefore your point, as usually, is both moot and a sign of your ignorance. I would suggest you read up on it. There's a decent article here outlining, in fairly basic terms, how the formation comes about: http://geology.com/articles/snowflakes/
Basically, no two snowflakes form in exactly the same way because the exact conditions in which they form are never replicated. I don't suppose you'll even attempt to educate yourself though.

Reading other peoples ideas is not my idea of an intelligent persons reasoning when considering thinking for ones self when you are in command of all the facts.

Of course there is always an explanation of how things work or they would not be there.

Everything God created has a rational explanation if you, seek to find. This does not in any way support evolution, rather one with any intelligence would question how anything so complex could possibly have come about by chance and be constant, rather than random.

There are thousands of different opinions and I base mine on that which I can see and that which makes the most sense, I cannot be and am not interested in people who attempt to explain matters they do not actually understand and who put forward THEORIES when the actual evidence against is more obvious, I am not interested in the explanation of how a snowflake is formed but more so in who made it possible.

You're making an admission of willful ignorance there, PG. I can except the beliefs of others, within reason obviously, but that's one thing I can't abide or comprehend.

Dan let's just face facts, the guy is stuck with his head in a bible that says god does everything. GOD PROBABLY FLUSHES HIS LOO FOR HIM TOO.

stuart torr wrote:Dan let's just face facts, the guy is stuck with his head in a bible that says god does everything. GOD PROBABLY FLUSHES HIS LOO FOR HIM TOO.

Don't be too hard on him/her (I have forgotten) as he/she has found a nice place to live, nowhere near reality but a place he/she can live and be happy. A friend of mine has a daughter about forty years old with the mental age of a three year old but she, the daughter, is living the life of Riley in a place just next door to where PolyGlide appears to live, in fact it would not beyond the realms of probability that they might meet.

PolyGlide, I think a fair few of us have been involved in one form of Christianity or another so our rib poking is just in jest. There but for the grace of ___ go we. We do this not because we don't understand where you're coming from but because we do.

In spite of our differences I hope you and your family can enjoy the holiday, I would call it Giftmas but you would call it Christmas.

Peace

Heretic

Very true Heretic, our rib poking is just in jest,it may sound harsh to you at times pg but then again so does going on about god all the time does too. I too can only second Heretic's wish that you have a merry christmas,and best wishes for the new year.

PG dishes plenty out. Normally when he's just been asked to back up what he claims.

We know he cannot do that Dan do we not.   

polyglide wrote:Reading other peoples ideas is not my idea of an intelligent persons reasoning when considering thinking for ones self when you are in command of all the facts.

Really? So you came up with the idea of Christianity all by yourself?

Shirina wrote:

polyglide wrote:Reading other peoples ideas is not my idea of an intelligent persons reasoning when considering thinking for ones self when you are in command of all the facts.

Really? So you came up with the idea of Christianity all by yourself?

He does walk into them, doesn't he?

Heretic

If he cannot run into them that is, maybe he gets into his car and drives into them Heretic.   

Shirina wrote:

polyglide wrote:Reading other peoples ideas is not my idea of an intelligent persons reasoning when considering thinking for ones self when you are in command of all the facts.

Really? So you came up with the idea of Christianity all by yourself?

  

polyglide wrote:...Evolution would have all the flakes exactly the same....

According to your argument then, there would only be one sort of animal/plant. Did you think it through before you wrote that?

Silly question really   

Don't suppose you looked at the Gardiner stuff either.

Here's a page you might like, PG:
http://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive

You can be naughty at times Dan.    

stuart torr wrote:You can be naughty at times Dan.     

Only at times? He can't be putting a lot of effort into it then.

Heretic

polyglide wrote:You have actually hit the nail on the head.

Evolution would have all the flakes exactly the same.

Just look at them again and see the intelligence and love that has gone into their design.

   Hilarious, incredibly stupid, but nonetheless hilarious.

You have to love the theistic logic whereby scientists can be criticised if they aren't working 24/7 to cure all forms of disease but it's ok for god to spend his time designing billions upon billions of individual snowflakes.

Or all those single little raindrops, he is a busy man is he not.?

I trust you had a very good Christmas Stu and enjoyed part of it with your daughter. Irrespective of all our different opinions I wish you all the best and all other posters for the New Year.

I have a feeling we will all need it.